help our joints

[goodsguys]

Hi. I've done research on the effect of steroids on body collagen levels especially pertaining to joint degredation wear and tear. I spent the whole day visting forums, medical sites and the such like, and continually saw this one posting which i am sure you will all recognise immediatly as it must have been copied and pasted into every training related forum on the web. And it goes a little something like this :-

" Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing."

Unfortnatly there is nothing to coroborate this posting and the author has disappeared, refusing to answer any emails or explain his " scientific findings ".
My worry is that: forum after form website after website is full of people refering to this posting and stating they are going to add deca or equipoise to their stack to protect their joints.
Unfortunalty painful joints only disappear while on deca and return very swiftly when the course is ceased showing that deca only has a masking effect

The closest i came to any evidence between test and collagen is this:
which states test has no effect on collagen, and this:
which also states that test does not affect collagen synthesis.
Oops! Sorry had to delete the links, not allowed by admin


When on a cycle the body produces more estrogen and cortisol. My question is if test does not affect collagen, is it the higher levels of cortisol which the body produces which affects collagen. Most studies show that estrogen increases collagen production. People on estrogen or test hormone replacement therapy usually report increased levels of collagen

Thanks in advance for your help. John.

 

[twr]

Just some personal experience: EQ- no help with joints at all. Decca- I had what I thought was bursitis of the shoulder and a tendon in my forearm that would not heal. It made lateral raises almost impossible. I ran 600mg a week of decca w/ 500mg of sus.for 8 weeks and have never had a problem with either... going on 6 years now.
Decca works wonders on joints and ligaments.
my .02

 

[wootoom]

I like the Primo part Another good reason to do it..

 

[goodsguys]

Hi. So do you think there is actually something to the posting i quoted. As i say there is nothing
on the web to support it especially the percentage numbers he stated, but i guess real life experience which you have kindly provided is the best indicator. Still would be nice to hear from someone who may have scientific evidence or perhaps more firsthand experience.

Surprised to hear that eq had no effect on joints as the posting claimed it boosted collagen
the most out of all the steroids.

Thanks. John.

 

[Nomadic Dreamer]

My joints feel a million times better running EQ with anavar then when I ran winny alone.

Also, I believe EQ is similar in structure as Deca and one of the properties that is very similar between the 2 is the joint protection, from what I've heard. I'll see if I can find something to back it up.

Anyways, my joints feel awesome though, so maybe I can just feel my own proof.

 

[thelion2005]

I have arthritis in various joints and had hip replacement it was so bad there.
I believe that once cartilage is gone ... it is gone.

However, some aas draws fluid into the tissues around the joint and that provides
some cushion and some relief. I've done the list ... deca, npp, winny, ana, d-bol, sust, tests of all kinds .....

The best feeling I got was from test p or sust. d-bol was good too. However, I had to watch my blood pressure like a hawk.

 

[ArmaniAK47]

No offense... but aren't deca and equipoise way different?

and why wouldn't test increase joint strength?

 

[goodsguys]

Hi. Thanks for the update.

It's all a very confusing issue. Many people state their joints killed when on an equipoise cycle, if it boosts collagen then why? Armaniak 47: most bodybuilders do get facial wrinkles from test which indicates a weakening
and thinning of the skin. Some believe any and all steroids will weaken collagen, look at the number of pro bodybuilders with torn muscles and tendons. Yet those who go onto hormone replacement therapy from the doctor report increases in collagen and joint health. I guess they don't take anything like the levels of test pros take which might be a factor. My theory was if test and estrogen are good for collagen, could it be the higher level of cortisol that is the culprit?

Finally there's an intresting comment from a gym buddy of mine who states
that only growth hormone is the real and scientifically proven booster of collagen and joint health, and says if you have a bad joint, lets say elbows for example, you can rub the growth hormone directly onto the joint to give relief rather than injecting it and letting it go off anywhere in the entire body it feels like, not that he's tried it himself just something he's heard.

Is this possible, or will the growth hormone be destroyed by skin enzymes, much like test is affected by the 5 alpha reductase enzyme?

I find it all interesting and would love some feedback

Thanks in advance. John.

 

[Nitro79]

i think that hgh and igf are the best collagen boosters , and should be included in any aas cyles if there any concerns for joint health and during pct as well , the only problem is their prices , very expensive. Deca could be effective in masking the pain during the stack period due to it's high conversion to estrogen which retains too much water in the body but don't think that it would solve the problem permanently , it take months maybe years sometimes to heal from a damage joint or tendon.
i had tendenosis (shoulder), started a year ago during a 10 weeks stack of winny tren ace and prop, the best cheap treatment i'm having right now is training with light weights on a slow tempo and taking some supplements like glucosamine and chondroitin (animal flex my favorite) and doing well now feeling 75 % recovered still hoping that some day the pain will totally go away.

 

[wootoom]

Exactly I would say it's more about the training regiment...also I heard hgh can cause carpal tunnel is this true? I use lighter weight now and my joints feel way better