Help.. Low Test levels.. Need advice!!!

[deltoromd]

I have been around for several years but have never posted, this is the first time i have felt the need to post. I need some advise from some of the experts here. I have taken just about all the OTC andro products over the years. Some with slight gains, some did nothing. Last year I did an 8 week cycle of Sustanon and ended with Win-V and Clomid. I had very nice gains, gained about 20lbs of muscle and began to see a change in body structure for once in my life. I started out at 5'8" 184lbs and ended up at 205lbs by the end of the cycle. Feeling great and looking much better than ever!!!

Now a quick history.. I have felt in the last 4-5 yrs i have began to suffer from low test levels, (moodyness, sleeplessness, hairloss, gynomastia, loss of appattite, loss of sex drive, fat retention in the belly and breast area, etc.) When I was on Sustanon, I felt so called "normal again". I have not taken anything in the last 6 months now. No Andro products, no creatine, no test, no nothing, excepts for a few protein shakes a week with my normal diet.

I went to the Dr. 2 weeks ago and had some blood test run to see what is going on with me. The only thing found is my test level came back low for my age. I am 28yrs old and it came back at 205 nG. According to my Dr. I should be above 240nG. According to most internet sites medical books acceptable range is 300 to 1200 nG. I am going back to the Dr. today to have blood re-drawn. I should have the results in 1 weeks. He stated if they come back low again, hormone therapy will be required. This would obviously explain all of my problems that i have been experiencing.

Now from a bodybuidling point of view. I have been trying for about 3 yrs to get into some amature competitions in my area, but have fallen short each time and have not entered because I was not happy with my overall development. The low test levels prob had a lot to do with it. How do I approach this with my Dr. so I dont look like someone that is just trying to get legal Test but rather there is a medical need? And how do i get the most of this test therapy that will be admininstered and monitored by my Dr.? I dont want to come across as a roid head and have my Dr. just say no, you dont need it now, but I do want to get the most out of it so i can persure some competitions in the near future...

Any suggestions? Also, you can send me a private email if you would feel better talking about it offline.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[junk]

It is my understanding from your post that your doc will prescribe you testosterone (cream, oral or inj.) ? I don't think you would need much 'begging' 205nG is extremely low for your age. Even 240 or 300 would deserve HRT or some sort of other treatment. However, you would not be able to take testo at bodybuilding levels and when you have to be tested by your endo. A cycle of 500mg weekly sust would bring your levels real high, depanding you when tested, it can come easily well over 1600 which would cause a lot of antagonism from your doc, and rightfully so.

 

[deltoromd]

That is correct Junk. They will perscribe test oral, cream or inj. I am awaiting the results of my second blood test before they will start some sort of HRT. What is perferrable ( I would assume inj) since you get an immediate surge then it starts to decrease? I want to push my lifting to the next level and start participating in some competitions, but dont want the doc to get pissed.... He already knows that i am a gym nut and eat good (for the most part, not perfect but better than most). Just not sure how to approach it without screwing myself.

 

[sigmund]

Alot of Docs conclude HRT is the only option when test levels come back low. In my opinion this isn't the case, my guess is that you're shutdown following pro-longed prohormone & AAS use. I think that it may be better to focus efforts on getting your natty test back to where it should be via HCG / Nolva / Clomid / Adex etc.

Did you include full PCT (post cycle therapy) in your previous cycles?

Ultimately the choice is yours but HRT for life at 28 is a big decision.

Additionally - have a browse through some of the posts on the PCT board in particular Jenetics experience of recovery following a long period of being shut down.

 

[nsashbl01]

Alot of Docs conclude HRT is the only option when test levels come back low. In my opinion this isn't the case, my guess is that you're shutdown following pro-longed prohormone & AAS use. I think that it may be better to focus efforts on getting your natty test back to where it should be via HCG / Nolva / Clomid / Adex etc.

Did you include full PCT (post cycle therapy) in your previous cycles?

Ultimately the choice is yours but HRT for life at 28 is a big decision.

Additionally - have a browse through some of the posts on the PCT board in particular Jenetics experience of recovery following a long period of being shut down.

Good advice here. I'm on HRT because I fucked up my pituitary from multiple head injuries. I still made sure I wasn't recoverable before starting HRT. I believe they can tell by checking FSH and LH. Go to sbi and read Swales "Recipe for Success", bring it to your doc.

At your age, I'd do my best to get my endoctrine system straightened out before any more cycles.

Good luck...

 

[deltoromd]

I agree this could be the result of prolonged prohormone use but I always quit after 8 weeks. Generally I would do 1 or several prohormone stacks for 8 weeks then i would stay off of everything for atleast another 8 weeks. I have not done that much of the good shit. I did one cycle of d-bol and winny-V. Results were average but better than the prohormones. About 3 months later I tried sustanon with winny-v and had much better results. Gained about 24 lbs of muscle and lost about 3% body fat during that time. I concluded both cycles with a cycle of clomid for 3 weeks.

Like I said, I have been off of everthing for about 8 months now, so, with or without a heafty post cycle regimine, I would think my body had enough time to recooperate. The reason I tried the "real stuff" is I have always thought my test levels were low, for many reasons I wont get into now, but valid.

I think I am going to take my results from the first and second blood test and go see another dr. (someone besides my family physician). I would like to get a specialist opinion.

I know it is a big decision, but hell, dont the Life Extension companies use HRT to keep the stars and rich living a longer healthier lives than previous generations? Just a thought for discussion.

Thanks again for the responses.

 

[deltoromd]

nsashbl01, Sorry, where do i find this? "Go to sbi and read Swales "Recipe for Success", bring it to your doc."

I am looking for it, cant find it...

 

[envies]

Definitely go to an endocrinologist. he/she will most likely be much more educated on the endocrine system than your general physician...keyword 'general', not specialized.

 

[junk]

I agree this could be the result of prolonged prohormone use but I always quit after 8 weeks. Generally I would do 1 or several prohormone stacks for 8 weeks then i would stay off of everything for atleast another 8 weeks. I have not done that much of the good shit. I did one cycle of d-bol and winny-V. Results were average but better than the prohormones. About 3 months later I tried sustanon with winny-v and had much better results. Gained about 24 lbs of muscle and lost about 3% body fat during that time. I concluded both cycles with a cycle of clomid for 3 weeks.

Like I said, I have been off of everthing for about 8 months now, so, with or without a heafty post cycle regimine, I would think my body had enough time to recooperate. The reason I tried the "real stuff" is I have always thought my test levels were low, for many reasons I wont get into now, but valid.

I think I am going to take my results from the first and second blood test and go see another dr. (someone besides my family physician). I would like to get a specialist opinion.

I know it is a big decision, but hell, dont the Life Extension companies use HRT to keep the stars and rich living a longer healthier lives than previous generations? Just a thought for discussion.

Thanks again for the responses.

To summerize:
1. Go see an endocrinologist, preferably one that has experience with young athletes (not many).
2. The fact that your cycles were 8 weeks does not imply that PCT is not essential, it is. Some people can get their hpta very supressed from 8 weeks, while some don't. I never really did understand guys that do not do ANYTHING post cycle to keep their gains for which the've worked so hard for (or didn't).
3. For short cycles the minimum for PCT is 3 weeks. For longer, I usually aim at 5-8 weeks to make sure endocrine system is kick started.
4. Blood work is essential about 2-3 weeks after PCT is over to see how your body is doing on it's own.
5. Even if you were suppressed for 2 years, a good endocrinologist can help you get out of it, you can ask Jenetic.
6. HRT is always a route, but depands on your goal.
7. Don't mix HRT with cycles. HRT is HRT - hormone replacement therapy it's about 100mg of enathate every once in a while, not 500mg of sust every week. so don't count on HRT to get you AAS cycle results. Also if you visit your doctor with a reading of over well over 900 that won't really look like HRT.

 

[DIVISION]

I think I am going to take my results from the first and second blood test and go see another dr. (someone besides my family physician). I would like to get a specialist opinion.

Smart.

Find an Endocrinologist who's covered under your insurance and see them, realize that they will most likely want to run their own bloodtests for liability purposes and to squeeze more money out of your insurance company. Once they have done that, you will most likely be put on Test Cypionate or Enanthate 200MG EW or EOW. This is HRT only....nothing more. You don't want to make it seem like you're begging for juice, all you can do is complain of your lack of stamina, libido, and muscle soreness lingering for days.

Once you see the Endocrinologist, see them for all your HRT needs, simply bypass your family practioner as it will only complicate matters.



DIV

 

[muscleup]

great answer and I agree 100%

Alot of Docs conclude HRT is the only option when test levels come back low. In my opinion this isn't the case, my guess is that you're shutdown following pro-longed prohormone & AAS use. I think that it may be better to focus efforts on getting your natty test back to where it should be via HCG / Nolva / Clomid / Adex etc.

Did you include full PCT (post cycle therapy) in your previous cycles?

Ultimately the choice is yours but HRT for life at 28 is a big decision.

Additionally - have a browse through some of the posts on the PCT board in particular Jenetics experience of recovery following a long period of being shut down.

 

[deltoromd]

Like i said previously, junk, I did do a 3 week PCT after both cycles but never after a prohormone cycle. Maybe the 3 weeks wasn't enough. However, i will be going to see a specialist Mar. 2nd to discuss all options. I appreciate all the input from everyone.

From what i understand the Dr. I am going to see in an ex-decathalte and believes in HRT for adults that experience low test levels. He believes it is the secret to a long, happy, healthly life for those with prolonged low test levels. I know of one other guy that has seen him and says that he is one of the only dr's that keeps up with all the prohormones out there and "non" prohormone vitamins out there. I use the word "vitamins" very loosly here, but you get the picture. He is suppoesed to be very knowledgeable iin this area. I was advised he wont judge but will make sure my hormone levels get to where the need to be. I was also told if I advise the Dr. that I will do "vitamins" regardless to get where I need to be he wont stop you but will monitor your progress and health. Maybe that a good thing, but i wont push it. I'll see how the initial visit goes.

 

[DIVISION]

From what i understand the Dr. I am going to see in an ex-decathalte and believes in HRT for adults that experience low test levels.

HRT is better than nothing I suppose.....at least you have a legal script to back you up in case you get searched. Since he is a former athlete, he might be inclined to raise your test levels to the high range which means at least 200MG Cypionate EW instead of the typical HRT dose of 200MG EOW....



DIV

 

[deltoromd]

Called to get resultes today... All they would say is it is low again on the second test and will need to come in to speak with the Dr. to discuss options. Could not give me the #'s to my results... I go in tomorrow... I wonder how low my second test is? Bastards!!!!!

 

[YankeesMan]

Keep us posted, and good luck!

 

[deltoromd]

Called Dr. to get the nG level.. it was 257.2 this time. A little higher than last week but still low. Will see what he has to say tomorrow.

 

[DIVISION]

Called Dr. to get the nG level.. it was 257.2 this time. A little higher than last week but still low. Will see what he has to say tomorrow.

Sounds to me like your doc is a lazy fuckface......I suggest changing docs and getting an endocrinologist as your primary care provider, cuts through alot of shit....Get a doc who works for you.......and will give you the care you deserve..........nugga.




DIV

 

[awittyusername]

Good advice here. I'm on HRT because I fucked up my pituitary from multiple head injuries. I still made sure I wasn't recoverable before starting HRT. I believe they can tell by checking FSH and LH. Go to sbi and read Swales "Recipe for Success", bring it to your doc.

At your age, I'd do my best to get my endoctrine system straightened out before any more cycles.

Good luck...

good advice

I sent you a link for swales Recipe for Success

He is my dr. (He is not taking anymore patients now) I had the same exact symptoms as you. After labs Swale started me at 100mgs cyp/wk. Then, tested again. Slowly raising my dosage until I felt better. (1200 in a range up to 1200)

My dosage is 240mg cyp/wk 250iu hcg twice/wk I feel great!!! I have the knowledge and skill of a 33yr old, but the test level and sex drive of an 18yr old.

My I-gf was low, so I'm also on 2 iu HGH ed......forever

PM me w/any questions

 

[deltoromd]

Well here are my results:
Androstenedione = 87 Ref range 57-265 ng/dl
Estrone = 66 Ref range 12-72 pg/ml
Estradiol = 26 Ref range 20-77 pg/ml
IgE = 63.8 Ref range <87.0 IU/mL
Test Total = 237 Ref range 241-827 ng/dl
Test Free = 9.69 Ref range 5.0 - 21.0 ng/dl
Test Free % = 4.09% Ref range 1.0 - 2.70%
Hgb A1C Glyco = 4.9 Ref range 4.0 - 6.0 %
T4 Free = 1.10 Ref range .70 - 1.48 ng/dl
TSH = .67 Ref range .35 - 4.94 uIU/ml
Free T3 = 3.61 Ref range 1.71 - 3.71 pg/ml
Anti-TPO = <10 Ref range <35 IU/ml
Thyrogolob Ab = <20 ref range <40 IU/ml
Thy Stim Immugb = 95 ref range <130 %
CRP = <.5 ref range 0.0 - 0.8 mg/dl
IgA = 191 Ref range 50 - 400 mg/dl
IgG = 1324 ref range 600 - 1500 mg/dl
IgM = 82 ref range 22 - 240 mg/dl
Cholestrol = 227 ref range 112-200 mg/dl
Triglyc = 106 ref range 0-200 mg/dl
chol/HDL ratio = 4.5 ref range 0 - 5.0 ratio
HDL = 50 ref range >35 mg/dl
LDL = 156 ref range 0 - 130 mg/dl
LH = 1.3 ref range 2.0 - 12.0 MIU/ML
FSH = 1.1 ref range 1.0 - 8.0 MIU/ML
Prolactin = 4.5 ref range 1.6 - 18.8 ng/ml

Tell me what you guys think.....

 

[sigmund]

Estradiol = 26 Ref range 20-77 pg/ml
Test Total = 237 Ref range 241-827 ng/dl
Test Free = 9.69 Ref range 5.0 - 21.0 ng/dl
Test Free % = 4.09% Ref range 1.0 - 2.70%
LH = 1.3 ref range 2.0 - 12.0 MIU/ML
FSH = 1.1 ref range 1.0 - 8.0 MIU/ML

Tell me what you guys think.....

Looking at LH, FSH and Test total in particular I'd say HRT should be last resort - but the choice is yours bro.

Testosterone production is stimulated by Leydig cells in the testicles. Low levels of testosterone combined with low FSH and LH are diagnostic of hypogonadotropic (secondary) hypogonadism, inidicative of supression due to AAS / Prohormone use. If you can stimulate LH / FSH back to normal (pre exogenous testosterone) levels and keep Estradiol (E2) in range you should be able to recover.

 

[YankeesMan]

Looking at LH, FSH and Test total in particular I'd say HRT should be last resort - but the choice is yours bro.

Testosterone production is stimulated by Leydig cells in the testicles. Low levels of testosterone combined with low FSH and LH are diagnostic of hypogonadotropic (secondary) hypogonadism, inidicative of supression due to AAS / Prohormone use. If you can stimulate LH / FSH back to normal (pre exogenous testosterone) levels and keep Estradiol (E2) in range you should be able to recover.

How would he be able to do that?

Would a Nolvadex & Clomid combo work?

 

[sigmund]

How would he be able to do that?

Would a Nolvadex & Clomid combo work?

Yeah it's likely SERMs would be incorporated.

Personally I'd find a good, experienced endo who understands the situation and is willing to work with the patient. There may be other issues that have yet to be identified and there's no point going with a hit & miss approach at this stage as it's possible further complications could occur.

Under the endo's supervision initiate a recovery program, likely to involve HCG coupled with Nolvadex / Clomid (I personally would go with Adex) regularly assessing blood work to ensure progress.

Jenetic is the man to speak to about this as he's been through it all himself and has a wealth of knowledge on the subject matter.

 

[deltoromd]

You guys are very, very close. After additional test we found that I have a Zinc block occuring somewhere in my body. I have Alopecia Universalis (Auto-immune disease that causes you to loose your hair). I got this disease when i was 6 years old. I am 30 now. Dr. believes that i have lived with this Zinc block all my life and prob the reason i got hit with this disease at such a young age. (Alopecia is one of the listed side affects of chronically low Zinc levels in your body). To make a long story short, he has me on 100 mg of Zinc a day now coupled with 100 mg of DHEA a day. In 4 weeks, if there is not a significant increase in test, DHT, Lh and FSH he will begin me on Clomiphene Citrate (Clomid) and HCG. T

Thanks for your input guys!!!!!!!!!

Additional results:

Zinc = 63 Range should be 70 - 150
LH = 1.3 Range should be 2.0 - 12.0
FSH = .8 Range should be 1.0 - 8.0
DHEA = 389 Range should be 208 - 771

Yeah it's likely SERMs would be incorporated.

Personally I'd find a good, experienced endo who understands the situation and is willing to work with the patient. There may be other issues that have yet to be identified and there's no point going with a hit & miss approach at this stage as it's possible further complications could occur.

Under the endo's supervision initiate a recovery program, likely to involve HCG coupled with Nolvadex / Clomid (I personally would go with Adex) regularly assessing blood work to ensure progress.

Jenetic is the man to speak to about this as he's been through it all himself and has a wealth of knowledge on the subject matter.

 

[2lunatics_ina_rubber_room]

I understand that prohormones can shut you down and mess with your blood levels just like AAS. About 3-4 years ago I tried prohormones and they messed up my levels. My doc told me this was all to common, he advised me to avoid them. What do you think would happen if you ran Jenetics PTC program of Hcg, Nolva, Clomid ?

 

[crfpilot14]

i would run a PCT consisting of HCG 1000IU 3 times per wk for 3 wks along with 20mg nolva ed and 1mg adex ed, then stop the HCG and continue the nolva and adex for an additional 2-3wks. you can continue with the Mg as well. then wait 2-3 wks and get some new levels drawn. your Dr will think he cured you!

 

[nsashbl01]

nsashbl01, Sorry, where do i find this? "Go to sbi and read Swales "Recipe for Success", bring it to your doc."

I am looking for it, cant find it...

Sorry, didn't see this. PM your email and I'll end it to ya....

 

[Maetenloch]

If I recall, one of SWALE's recommendations was to try doing one more intense PCT (hcg + nolva + clomid, etc) before trying HRT. For some people this was enough to restart their natural production.

 

[deltoromd]

Additional results from this weeks follow up. FYI, i have been on Zinc 50 Mg in the AM and 50 mg in the PM for 7 weeks ( Also added 25mg of dhea in the AM and 75 mg of dhea at night for 3 weeks. Adding 5mg of copper now.

new results:

Total Test = 339 (thats a 43% increase from first round of testing)
LH = 1.8 (45% increase from 1 test)
FSH = 1.2 (9% increase)

doc not ready to put me on any test, clomid, etc. yet. Wants to estabilsh a baseline and get as much out of my testies as reasonably possible. Will be going back in 4 weeks. will keep you guys posted.

I defintely fell much better! Sleeping, night sweats, energy, etc. all getting better....

Well here are my results:
Androstenedione = 87 Ref range 57-265 ng/dl
Estrone = 66 Ref range 12-72 pg/ml
Estradiol = 26 Ref range 20-77 pg/ml
IgE = 63.8 Ref range <87.0 IU/mL
Test Total = 237 Ref range 241-827 ng/dl
Test Free = 9.69 Ref range 5.0 - 21.0 ng/dl
Test Free % = 4.09% Ref range 1.0 - 2.70%
Hgb A1C Glyco = 4.9 Ref range 4.0 - 6.0 %
T4 Free = 1.10 Ref range .70 - 1.48 ng/dl
TSH = .67 Ref range .35 - 4.94 uIU/ml
Free T3 = 3.61 Ref range 1.71 - 3.71 pg/ml
Anti-TPO = <10 Ref range <35 IU/ml
Thyrogolob Ab = <20 ref range <40 IU/ml
Thy Stim Immugb = 95 ref range <130 %
CRP = <.5 ref range 0.0 - 0.8 mg/dl
IgA = 191 Ref range 50 - 400 mg/dl
IgG = 1324 ref range 600 - 1500 mg/dl
IgM = 82 ref range 22 - 240 mg/dl
Cholestrol = 227 ref range 112-200 mg/dl
Triglyc = 106 ref range 0-200 mg/dl
chol/HDL ratio = 4.5 ref range 0 - 5.0 ratio
HDL = 50 ref range >35 mg/dl
LDL = 156 ref range 0 - 130 mg/dl
LH = 1.3 ref range 2.0 - 12.0 MIU/ML
FSH = 1.1 ref range 1.0 - 8.0 MIU/ML
Prolactin = 4.5 ref range 1.6 - 18.8 ng/ml

Tell me what you guys think.....

 

[DIVISION]

doc not ready to put me on any test, clomid, etc. yet. Wants to estabilsh a baseline and get as much out of my testies as reasonably possible.

I hope your testicles are able to come out of hibernation.

Talk about a roll of the dice, more like a stroke of the scrotum.......





DIV

 

[sigmund]

Additional results from this weeks follow up. FYI, i have been on Zinc 50 Mg in the AM and 50 mg in the PM for 7 weeks ( Also added 25mg of dhea in the AM and 75 mg of dhea at night for 3 weeks. Adding 5mg of copper now.

new results:

Total Test = 339 (thats a 43% increase from first round of testing)
LH = 1.8 (45% increase from 1 test)
FSH = 1.2 (9% increase)

doc not ready to put me on any test, clomid, etc. yet. Wants to estabilsh a baseline and get as much out of my testies as reasonably possible. Will be going back in 4 weeks. will keep you guys posted.

I defintely fell much better! Sleeping, night sweats, energy, etc. all getting better....

Good to see things are improving bro... have you noted an increase in libido?

Keep us posted!

 

[deltoromd]

yes, libdo is much improved too.

Good to see things are improving bro... have you noted an increase in libido?

Keep us posted!

 

[deltoromd]

How you like this SHIT!!!! Doc prescribes 1 50mg tab of Clomiphene citrate for 30 days. Insurance company says since it is an infertality drug they will not cover it... So, i get to dish out $150.00 for 30 (50mg tabs) of clomid if I cannot convience the insurance company this is NOT for infertaility but Low Test, LH and FSH...

BTW, most recent test show FSH and LH not doing shit. Test levels are still in the 200's. The only positive is my percentange of freely bound test is much higher, went from 1.4% to 4.7%.

FucK Insurance Companies!!! any suggestions besides doing it on my own on the black market?