HCG Post cycle or not?

[PittBull666]

I have done alot of reading on the subject and thier seems to be 2 opinions regarding HCG usage.

1)HCG should only be used during cycle to increase natural test production and that Clomid only should be used post cycle.

2)HCG is a must post cycle and should be combined with nolvadex and clomid. The nolvadex being used to prevent gyno induced by the HCG.

I have never seen a difinitive answer to this HCG issue thus have been reluctant to use it.

Someone settle this issue once and for all.


Later
666

 

[azdave]

HCG will suppress your HPTA recovery, so you want to use it for 1-2 weeks and one week before you start your clomid. It's just used to get your balls back to their normal size, and not boost your HPTA.

You don't want to do more than 500-1000 iu's a day also, or it could cause gyno. Running some Nolvadex with it is a good idea also.

 

[lawnsaver]

If a cycle contains tren/deca or is longer than 10 weeks I would come off lie this!

one week after last long ester shot or 2 days after a short ester shot start HCG at 500-1000ius ED or EOD respectivley with 20mg of N-dex ED for 14 days. Then 4 days after last HCG shot, start your clomid: 300mg day 1, 100mg next 10, and 50mg final 10-19 days.

This is the way I come off and I get my morning wood back after I am done

 

[DaMan]

HCG will suppress your HPTA recovery

bullshit.

 

[lawnsaver]

bullshit.

Dont say something if you are unsure. It is not BS. HCG gives a false signal to the LH, in which it signs your testis to produce test. Once the signal stops, so does the production. Long term use of HCG will even desesitize your LH, which will hinder natural test production. HCG is suppressive. It does nothing to restart one's HPTA.

 

[DaMan]

Dont say something if you are unsure. It is not BS. HCG gives a false signal to the LH, in which it signs your testis to produce test. Once the signal stops, so does the production. Long term use of HCG will even desesitize your LH, which will hinder natural test production. HCG is suppressive. It does nothing to restart one's HPTA.

Oh Jesus Christ.

HCG is a synthetic form of LH - there is no "LH" to send a signal to, LH = Luteinizing Hormone and is produced by your pituitary gland. The exogenous LH (HCG) stimulates your Leydig and Sertoli cells in the testes to, yes, produce more ENDOGENOUS testosterone. And no, the introduction of HCG does NOT downregulate endogenous LH production since it is not part of a feedback loop.

HCG does not "desensitize your LH", high doses have shown to desensitize the TESTES to LH and yes, long term it may have an adverse effect, but as for the usual 1-2 week post/on-cycle regimen that is not a factor.

As far as it doing nothing to restart the HPTA... uhm, no.

 

[superchicken]

i saw a medical study where 2 diff hypogonadal males subjects took hcg and clomid at the same time for about 1 mo or so, and they recovered and their test production was normal as measured a few weeks after therapy. so hcg is not as suppressive as many claim.

id post the study but FB is shut down, thats where it was.

 

[PittBull666]

I don't think I will ever get a definitive answer to my question. But thanks for the replys.


Later
666

 

[DaMan]

I don't think I will ever get a definitive answer to my question. But thanks for the replys.


Later
666

Probably not, I haven't either, but for what it's worth here's what works for me: use it during cycle to keep balls & test sorta up AND use it post-cycle, but this time only very sparingly to avoid the desensitization to LH. (like 500iu for 3 days every week or so while still on nolva + clomid).

 

[lawnsaver]

HCG is a synthetic form of LH?? Thats news to me. Its urine from a pregnant woman. Its action signal for more LH to be produced. Once it is out of the system, the signal goes away. Clomid or Nolvadex must be used in order for the HPTA to restart in a timely fashion. Any substance that greatly increases estrogen is inhibitory. HCG has a high conversion rate.

Also you are knit picking in the way I said things and then you said the same things I said, but clearer! I told him to do small doses of HCG so that the desensitzing wouldnt occur. I told him to use n-dex so that the conversion of estrogen wouldnt be counter productive to what he is trying to accomplish( restarting his HPTA ).

HCG is suppressive at higher doses for longer peroids of time. HCG does not restart the HPTA.
HCG at high doses will desesitize your balls from LH.
BUT...HCG will increase testicular size, which will allow clomid to do its job much easier. That is the main purpose of using HCG.

What info did I give that was incorrect, besides my wording??

And Jesus Christ has nothing to do with Gear!!

Also, I would like to read those abstracts on the use of HCG that was mentioned above.

 

[DaMan]

HCG is a synthetic form of LH?? Thats news to me. Its urine from a pregnant woman. Its action signal for more LH to be produced. Once it is out of the system, the signal goes away. Clomid or Nolvadex must be used in order for the HPTA to restart in a timely fashion. Any substance that greatly increases estrogen is inhibitory. HCG has a high conversion rate.

Also you are knit picking in the way I said things and then you said the same things I said, but clearer! I told him to do small doses of HCG so that the desensitzing wouldnt occur. I told him to use n-dex so that the conversion of estrogen wouldnt be counter productive to what he is trying to accomplish( restarting his HPTA ).

HCG is suppressive at higher doses for longer peroids of time. HCG does not restart the HPTA.
HCG at high doses will desesitize your balls from LH.
BUT...HCG will increase testicular size, which will allow clomid to do its job much easier. That is the main purpose of using HCG.

What info did I give that was incorrect, besides my wording??

And Jesus Christ has nothing to do with Gear!!

Also, I would like to read those abstracts on the use of HCG that was mentioned above.

1. I stand corrected on the "synthetic LH" comment, I know it's pregnant piss, by synthetic I really meant exogenous - my mistake.

2. Nolva will do nothing to suppress endogenous E2 produced by the test spike due to the HCG (and not by the HCG itself as your above post implies), all it will do is prevent gyno due to the E2. You probably ment A-dex, not N-dex, since the increased test implies an increase in aromatase activity which does need to be inhibited.

3. "What info did I give that was incorrect, besides my wording??"

Well no offense bro but if your wording had been more accurate then we wouldn't be having this discussion, referring to LH as "the LH" implies it's a bodypart responsible for producing something which it's absolutely not.

Bickering aside it looks like the only thing we disagree on is whether HCG is suppressive or not. You said it is for long periods of time - sure, probably, but we're not talking long periods of time, we're talking about a post-cycle regiment, and a conservative one at that. If you REALLY want I'll find the references to what I'm talking about, there was a really good one on medibolics about just this point.

 

[lawnsaver]

1. I stand corrected on the "synthetic LH" comment, I know it's pregnant piss, by synthetic I really meant exogenous - my mistake.

2. Nolva will do nothing to suppress endogenous E2 produced by the test spike due to the HCG (and not by the HCG itself as your above post implies), all it will do is prevent gyno due to the E2. You probably ment A-dex, not N-dex, since the increased test implies an increase in aromatase activity which does need to be inhibited.

3. "What info did I give that was incorrect, besides my wording??"

Well no offense bro but if your wording had been more accurate then we wouldn't be having this discussion, referring to LH as "the LH" implies it's a bodypart responsible for producing something which it's absolutely not.

Bickering aside it looks like the only thing we disagree on is whether HCG is suppressive or not. You said it is for long periods of time - sure, probably, but we're not talking long periods of time, we're talking about a post-cycle regiment, and a conservative one at that. If you REALLY want I'll find the references to what I'm talking about, there was a really good one on medibolics about just this point.

Supressing E2 is not needed! As long as the actions of E2 arent present, the suppression of the HPTA can revert. I know there was a discussion as to why A-dex and Letrozole wont work on the E2 created by HCG. I could be wrong, but I know William L recomends HCG and N-dex together and not A-dex.

Ok, I should have been more clear. HCG will not supress the HPTA with the use of short cycles, but it will do nothing to signal the testicles to produce natural test. It will signal the LC to produce LH, but when the "signal" fades, so will the production of test. With the use of N-dex or clomid after, your HPTA will not restart until it would naturally, which would result in a crash.

 

[thx9000]

HCG isn't synthetic or exogenous LH, it's HCG. It is idendical the alpha subunit of LH though and it stimulates the production of test by the testes. The resulting high levels of test can furher inhibit the release of GnHR which would then inhibit the release of natural LH by the pituitary thus delaying complete recovery.

 

[lawnsaver]

HCG isn't synthetic or exogenous LH, it's HCG. It is idendical the alpha subunit of LH though and it stimulates the production of test by the testes. The resulting high levels of test can furher inhibit the release of GnHR which would then inhibit the release of natural LH by the pituitary thus delaying complete recovery.

"Look at the big brains on Brett"...Samuel L Jackson

That is what I have been trying to say, but I couldnt find the terminology to prove my end result statement. That you!

 

[DaMan]

"Look at the big brains on Brett"...Samuel L Jackson

That is what I have been trying to say, but I couldnt find the terminology to prove my end result statement. That you!

Not to bicker any more about this, but the fact that a test spike affects the hpta feedback loop in such a way that GnRH keeps the hpta downregulated is conjecture, and debatable too. Kinda like blaming high post-cycle T3 levels for post-cycle muscle loss. (sorry Fonz, I side with Andy13 on this one )

But I can already tell that I'd lose a debate with thx9000, so I gracefully bow out here.

To answer the original poster's questions, though, and this is from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE ***AND*** BLOODWORK - run hcg during the cycle (every 3 weeks or so for a few days) and then for a couple days at the end and a couple days into clomid. Shoot a few 500iu days here and there as needed after that, but don't overdo it, and make sure to do it with nolva and an aromatase inhibitor. That's what worked for me.