Good Estrogen - Bad Estrogen - And Your Muscles

[Ross]

Ross...so tell me how you would use adex and proviron for pct?

I am familiar with hcg/nolva/etc.

HCG
Arimidex, 1mg ED
Proviron, 25-50mgs ED
Cabergoline, .5mg E3D
Injectable B-12 1cc E2D
Zinc, 50mgs
LJ-100
*Clomid(Optional) 50mgs ED

 

[Sam5]

Depends. Like I said, if Clomid works, use it but try some natural stuff along with it. It can only help. If you're really prone to gyno use Nolva but I have to say, there's just as good a chance of getting gyno after you stop so Nolva, in general, kinda sucks. You're better off avaiding the gear that causes it.

Persoanlly I'd use HCG with adex after a heavy cycle to get the balls back on court followed by adex and supps.

Ross: True -- Proviron will increase more free test than UNLEASHED -- but no much! And it's a drug so you can't stay on forever.

Since free test is so important I think everyone should make the most of it.

You have 4 choices -- Proviron, Winstrol, Muara Puama and Avenacosides.

Winstrol and Proviron are liver toxic (proviron less so) UNLEASHED has Muara Puama and Avenacosides.

Muira Puauma is awesome. I used to take it along with saw palmetto, catuaba, arginine, and a bunch of other shit that I can't remember to raise my sex drive and boy did it. Catuaba and Muira Puama are the main culprits though I believe for the increase.

 

[Nelson Montana]

Ross Dude. You've got to lighten up on these nine foot threads!

Seriously, I looked into LJ and found it less effective than avenacosides. There was also some concern with estrogen elevation. That study said there was no elevation of DHT but if SHBG is lowered there should be.

But I'm open. If someone wanted to try it along with avenacosides, give it a shot. I just didn't do much for me. Avenacosides did.

 

[Ross]

Dude. You've got to lighten up on these nine foot threads!

Seriously, I looked into LJ and found it less effective than avenacosides. There was also some concern with estrogen elevation. That study said there was no elevation of DHT but if SHBG is lowered there should be.

But I'm open. If someone wanted to try it along with avenacosides, give it a shot. I just didn't do much for me. Avenacosides did.

Eurycoma is MAGIC bro. One more study for ya! LOL

LJ100 As a Potential Natural Energizer for Healthy Aging Men.
M.I.M. Tambi, S. Othman and J.M. Saad. Specialist Reproductive Research Center, National Population & Family Development Board, Ministry of Women & Family Development, Malaysia. Department of Biochemistry, Faculty of Medicine, University of Malaya, Malaysia.
Andropause is associated with low (bioavailable) testosterone levels. Andropause, also called male menopause occurs in men are between the ages of 40 and 55. Starting at about age 30, testosterone levels drop by about 10 percent every decade. At the same time, Sex Binding Hormone Globulin, or SHBG, is increasing. SHBG traps much of the testosterone that is still circulating and makes it unavailable to exert its effects in the body's tissues. What's left over does the beneficial work and is known as "bioavailable" testosterone. Low Bioavailable Testosterone can lead to low sex drive, emotional, psychological and behavioral changes, decreased muscle mass, loss of muscle strength, increased upper and central body fat, Osteoporosis and increased cardiovascular risk.

In this study, we intend to investigate the effect of LJ100 on Andropause. Volunteers are selected whose age ranged between 31-52 years. Upon registration, the volunteers were asked to fill out two questionnaires: (1) a validated Sexual Health Inventory Questionnaire (SHIQ) and (2) the PADAM Score Questionnaire. Peripheral venous blood samples were also collected from each individual to evaluate total testosterone hormone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate (DHEA) and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) levels. Volunteers were then given either 100mg of LJ100 (22% Bioactive Eurypeptides) or placebo for three weeks. Volunteers were requested to come for follow-up after weeks one and three. In these sessions, they were asked to fill out an updated set of the two questionnaires and provide blood samples for follow-up analysis.

ANALYSIS & CONCLUSIONS

SHIQ results showed 62% of the cases having an increased or maximum score. Breakdown of the results showed increase in sexual desire and success in the attempts at sexual intercourse while on treatment and related well with the PADAM score’s results showing improvement in sexual attempts and desire.

PADAM score demonstrated that 82% of the cases showed a decrease in total score. The breakdown included: 91% improvement of sexual component, 73% improvement in the physical component, and 82% improvement of the psychological component. The Vasomotor score showed improvement in 52% of the subjects. The improvements of the first three components of the PADAM score reflect that consumption of LJ100 (22% Bioactive Eurypeptides) resulted in improvement of their quality of life with regards to their physical, sexual, and psychological well being.

Total testosterone levels were not significantly different between those raised and those declined in subjects, suggesting that LJ100 (22% Bioactive Eurypeptides) does not have any effect on steroidogensis. This suggests the feedback system is activated to ensure the testosterone levels are within the individuals needs range.

Analysis of DHEA showed gradual increase in the level from 26% after 1 week to 47% after 3 weeks. This suggests that the extract may influence the DHEA production, which would in turn subsequently be aromatized to testosterone. SHBG analysis showed that levels were reduced in 36% of the cases after one week. The reduction went up to 66% after 3 weeks. This suggests that the extract could have an effect on the production of SHBG. Consequently, when SHBG level declines, the Free Testosterone Index (FTI) goes up. FTI analysis showed an escalation of 39% of subjects after 1 week and 73% after 3 weeks.

In conclusion, LJ100 (22% Bioactive Eurypeptides) has strong potential in treating andropause by providing sufficient free testosterone to the body as demonstrated by the increase in the free testosterone index and decrease SHBG level of volunteers who were on the extract at one and three weeks. The result is seen in the improvement in both PADAM and SHI-Q score.

 

[Ross]

My FULL suggested PCT:

HCG(Restore testicular mass)
Vitamin E(Interacts with HCG)
Nolvadex(Increase endogenous Testosterone)
Aromasin(Decrease Estrogen, increase testosterone)
Cabergoline(Decrease prolactin)
Proviron(Decrease estrogen, increase Free T, increase well-being and Libido)
7-Keto DHEA(Drastically reduces CORTISOL)
Zinc(Decreases Aromatase activity, increases androgen sesnsitivity)
CellMass(Creatine anabolic support)
SuperPump 250(Creatine/Pre-workout)
Tribex(Herbal forumlation to increase endoegnous testosterone)
LJ-100(Herbal formulation to increase FREE TEST, increases pituitary sensitvity)

 

[Ross]

How bout a free sample big man?

If I like it, you can be damn sure I will include it in my suggested PCT protocol.

Sounds very promising based on the user feedback.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Arimidex is MORE effective than ANY natural estrogen reducer.

Proviron is MORE effective than ANY natural herb that increases FREE TEST.

HCG does what NOTHING else can do.

I think that Nelson is suggesting to run a STANDARD PCT with standard pharmaceutical drugs, but to SUPPLEMENT that regimen with some of his herbal forumlations.

There is NO herbal forumlation that can replace a proper PCT.

On steroid.com one of the mods (also a member here, SpyWizard) did only MyoGenX for his PCT and was happy with the results.

But typically, I would not suggest that...I like to see it as part of a good PCT, not as the whole PCT.

I don't know if I can agree with your statements regarding Drugs Vs/ Herbs. Some herbs are more powerful than drugs, and I really don't know enough about herbology to say that there is NO HERB more powerful at being an AI or lowering SHBG than a particular AI or Steroid.

By the way, you may be interested to know that Anavar is likely the AAS which lowers SHBG the most, MG for MG.

 

[Stryker1992]

On steroid.com one of the mods (also a member here, SpyWizard) did only MyoGenX for his PCT and was happy with the results.

But typically, I would not suggest that...I like to see it as part of a good PCT, not as the whole PCT.

I don't know if I can agree with your statements regarding Drugs Vs/ Herbs. Some herbs are more powerful than drugs, and I really don't know enough about herbology to say that there is NO HERB more powerful at being an AI or lowering SHBG than a particular AI or Steroid.

By the way, you may be interested to know that Anavar is likely the AAS which lowers SHBG the most, MG for MG.

I know the dude! I want to order some myo to try it, can you get me a discount?

 

[fitwitlem]

Remember when testosterone was broken up into "god" and "bad", much like cholesterol? They used to say that DHT was bad. Well, it turns out that DHT, although having no anabolic effect, is necessary for muscle hardness, it prevents the formation of estrones and is directly related to erection rigidy. Who wouldn't want more?! As it turn out, there's no such thing as "bad" testosterone. It's ALL good! Yea!

What is less often addressed is the types of estrogen. Now most bodybuilders find estrogen to be as appealing as an albino is to a trip to the equater. But we all need some estrogen. But just like HDL and LDL cholesterol, we want to keep the good and lose the bad.

When using anti-e's it might be a good time to add some "good" estrogen. Primrose oil is great for bodybuilders on gear because it helps the body produce prostaglandins as well as containing EFA's and GLA. This can help with joint mobility, cholesterol, liver enzymes and endurance. One problem -- Primrose oil is slightly estrogenic. But it has more of the "good" estrogens so it would be a good time to take it on days when you use your anti-e.

Prenenolone is another interesting substance in that it's sort of a super charged DHEA master hormone. It raises both T and e. Taking it along with an anti-e may leave the good without the bad.

Now what are these "bad" estrogens? Well, technically, it's a metabolite (16 alpha hydroxy estrone) and in short, it's responsible for all the nasty estrogen shit including gyno, prostate hyperthrophy and cancer.

Now stick with me for a minute. This is important.

We all know there are essentially two types of anti-e's -- the type that block and/or remove estrogen or SERM's -- the type that are estrogens themselves and prevent the formation of more estrogen. The first is classified as a suicide inhibitors and the other as a competitive inhibitor.

Still with me? Good. It gets easier now.

Let me interject a personal statement right now. I never liked the concept of a "competitive" estrogen. I don't want more estrogen. I don't like estrogen. Why try to occupy estrogen receptor sites when you can just kill the bastards? In short, love a-dex, femmera -- hate clomid and nolvadex.

There are estrogens and anti estrogens all over the place. Like those microwaved dinners in plastic? It's loaded with titty juice. Of course you can't escape it, but you can fight it.

There are also estrogens and ANTI estrogens in nature. (Isoflavones from soy are estrogenic. Bad. ) But natural anti-e's intrigued me so I went to work with some experimentation. What was esspecially fascinating is that natural anti-e's work similarly to their drug counterparts. There are estrogen-like compounds that SUPPOSEDLY take up the estrogen site preventing the formation or additional estrogen... and then there are estrogen REMOVERS.

Guess which ones I like better?

DIM is a phyto estrogen sold as a natural anti-e. I've used the stuff and I must say, the effects were almost exactly that of clomid. In other words, IT MADE ME FEEL LIKE A WEEPY BITCH WHOSE DICK FELL OFF!!! So much for natural SERMS.

Then there are natural eliminators -- calcium D glucarate and to a lesser degree chrysin. What's so great about calcium D Glucarate is that it's especially agressive in removing the 16 AHE -- remeber that? It's the BAD METABOLITE of estrogen that causes gyno and all that shit.

Now when I went about designing an anti e I could have put some DIM in there. Or some bullshit prohormone like AIFM and be done with it. But I wanted to use what I found to be most effective. Now I'll be perfectly honest. If Clomid works for you -- DIM may too! But I don't sell it because I don't like it. (Hey, it's my shit, I can do what I want).

Actually I don't technically sell anything. But obviously I want people to know about my product. For more info, check it out: http://proteinfactory.com/shop/product.php?productid=110&cat=0&page=1

So what's the lesson here? Testosterone GOOD. Estrogen...well, bad, but maybe it's mainly the bad that's bad. And as far as controlling estrogen during and after a cycle, find what works best for you.

For years I tried to convince people that Clomid may not be the best choice for PCT and that notion faced fierce opposition. (Okay, more likecontempt, vile, derrision, discourse and hate. But what the hell, I'm used to it).

Today, the tide has changed. (There's a certain gratification to that I must admit).

Clomid will always have its place because, if it works for you, it works. But it doesn't work for a lot of people and the alternative may work just as well if not better. And in either case, adding a natural substance to increase recovery and the removal of more "bad" estrogen can only help.

dude,your info puts some thoughts in my head, im pretty good with pct, but keeping gyno under control during cycle is the problem. good info to check out, thanks. im not a huge clomid fan but its ok, one thing is im just getting back after 1.5 year break and im not that familiar with all these newer serums that people are using(YET). anybody with a break down on those to help me out would be helpful, like i said i know all traditional methods and products. anyway good info cuz

 

[digit0x]

My FULL suggested PCT:

HCG(Restore testicular mass)
Vitamin E(Interacts with HCG)
Nolvadex(Increase endogenous Testosterone)
Aromasin(Decrease Estrogen, increase testosterone)
Cabergoline(Decrease prolactin)
Proviron(Decrease estrogen, increase Free T, increase well-being and Libido)
7-Keto DHEA(Drastically reduces CORTISOL)
Zinc(Decreases Aromatase activity, increases androgen sesnsitivity)
CellMass(Creatine anabolic support)
SuperPump 250(Creatine/Pre-workout)
Tribex(Herbal forumlation to increase endoegnous testosterone)
LJ-100(Herbal formulation to increase FREE TEST, increases pituitary sensitvity)

uh thats a lot of supps