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GH and glucophage question

Zyglamail

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This one goes out to our knowldegable GH guru's, havent seen a whole lot on the topic.

Im currently running 6IU GH dialy for the month of april, going on vacation early may and will come back and start a cycle while continuing to run GH during and for a couple months post cycle. One thing I have noticed is sometimes get serioud headaches, which I assume are low blood sugar or insuline insensitivity due to the GH. Im looking for feedback from anyone who has used GH with glucophage (instead of slin). What was your doing like and thoughts on it etc.
 
insulin resistance from gh will cause high blood sugar, not low, so that's probably not the cause of your headaches.

i've never tried hgh with metformin, but it sounds great in principle. i've used metformin with other things and i'd have to say it would be one of my favorites if it didn't cause me to crap my brains out so much. i had to stop when i started shitting blood.
 
insulin resistance from gh will cause high blood sugar, not low, so that's probably not the cause of your headaches
DOAH! See thats what happens when I have someone talking in one ear while im typing a post :).

i've used metformin with other things and i'd have to say it would be one of my favorites if it didn't cause me to crap my brains out so much. i had to stop when i started shitting blood.
What were your intentions when you started using it and how much were you using?
 
it has been a while, but i think the doses were 850mg per tab. i took 2 tabs/day, one in the morning and one at night. my goals were to increase the rate of glucose and amino acid uptake into the cells to build more mass. i got some amazing pumps from this and it actually made me lose some fat. i don't know if the fat loss came from increased insulin sensitivity or because the metformin just made me lose all my appetite.

after about 2 weeks i started having some bowel problems. another week goes by and i can't stop farting, so i decrease the dose to 1 tab/day. after the 4th week i started having bloody diarrhea and i stopped. i have used metformin on 2 separate occassions and both times the cycles lasted about 4 weeks.
 
after about 2 weeks i started having some bowel problems. another week goes by and i can't stop farting, so i decrease the dose to 1 tab/day. after the 4th week i started having bloody diarrhea and i stopped. i have used metformin on 2 separate occassions and both times the cycles lasted about 4 weeks.
Thanks for the info. It usually comes in 850 and 500mg tabs.

Did you jump right into 850x2 per day? Here is a tidbit on dosing it...

There is no fixed dosage regimen for the management of hyperglycemia in diabetes mellitus with metformin HCl or any other pharmacologic agent. Dosage of metformin HCl must be individualized on the basis of both effectiveness and tolerance, while not exceeding the maximum recommended daily dose of 2550 mg. Metformin HCl should be given in divided doses with meals and should be started at a low dose, with gradual dose escalation, as described below, both to reduce gastrointestinal side effects and to permit identification of the minimum dose required for adequate glycemic control of the patient.

Im getting 250mg caps from a well known guy to try which should help me better adjust dose.
 
I have been asking this question for about three months now. It doesn't seem that many people have used these two together. I have read that ALA will give similiar results.
 
yep, i jumped right to 1700mg/day. actually, the first time i used it i started with 850mg/day for the first 2 days to make sure i didn't get lactic acidosis from it. after that it was 1700mg/day the whole way. i guess i should have worked my way up, or do a little research lol. it reminds me of the first time i tried pgf2a without knowing the proper dose. popped 1cc into each delt and almost passed out from the pain while exploding into the toilet...
 
btw, i'm not as stupid as it sounds lol. when i tried metformin in 1996 there wasn't much info on dosing for bbers. same with pgf2a...
 
it reminds me of the first time i tried pgf2a without knowing the proper dose. popped 1cc into each delt and almost passed out from the pain while exploding into the toilet...
LOL, thats one of the funniest things ive read in a long time :D. Well I think I will give it a whirl. Did you monitor blood sugar levels while using it at all?
 
Zyg, I've been planning to try gh and am afraid of slin, so I posted a question about two months ago asking if metformin could be substituted. DrJMW graciously posted several studies showing how metformin increases insulin sensitivity and from there he extrapolated an opinion that 1500 mg Ed would be more that sufficient form my purposes. While I have yet to start gh (ordering some from ** this week) I got my metformin from an overseas pharmacy (it's super cheap) and have been on it for two months. Started a super low doses and built up gradually. Had the shits for the first week, but none after that. It killed my carb craving and has helped me drop some weight. My only problem is that when I was doing a sus/laurabolin cycle in Feb, the metformin caused me to go hypoglycemic and made me feel extremely addled/depressed. Hope this helps.
 
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There is a relatively new class of insulin sensivity enhancers thiazolidinediones - roziglitazone, pioglitazone (Avandia, Actos) that acts mostly enhancing insuline sensivity in muscle cels ( selective agonist to PPAR gama insulin receptors in muscle, fat and liver , along with hepatic glucogenesis inhibition), doesn't cause lactic acidosis, and is know to increase weight in treated subjects.I think it will be a very good alternative to metformin, although a lot expensiver. Maybe 30 mg day of pioglitazone ( long half-life-24hs), along with ALA will do the trick.
Just got a free sample, will try it.
 
Look at how that shit works...Why is this stuff even still talked about as I remeber Animal tearing it apart years ago...Glucocrap blocks Glut-4 pathways for the love of God...
 
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Verbal Gorilla said:
Look at how that shit works...Why is this stuff even still talked about as I remeber Animal tearing it apart years ago...Glucocrap blocks Glut-4 pathways for the love of God...

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is "glut-4?"
 
Zyglamail said:
Did you monitor blood sugar levels while using it at all?

i didn't monitor my blood sugar levels as in i didn't get a test kit to test my blood for sugar every so often during the day to check up on it. i did notice that if i don't eat enough carbs i'd get extremely listless, lightheaded, and just a general weird feeling.
 
Glut4 pathways are how GH gets to the muscle!! Metformin=no GH...My reccommendation for proper glucophange administration is 2 pills twice a day in the trash until all the metformin on the earth is gone...
 
Well, I disagree with the fact that metformin would disable GLUT4 hexose transport, on the contraire, it enhances it.Nevertheless, Thiazolidinediones does that also, and have their PRIMARY effect on insulin muscle and fat receptors, while metformin primarily reduces liver glucose output and secondarily acts as insulin receptor enhancer. I will start a HGH 4 UI 5 days on/ 2 off plus pioglitazone 30mg/ day plus ALA 900 mg day, and I think it will be very effective .


Metformin interaction with insulin-regulated glucose uptake, using the Xenopus laevis oocyte model expressing the mammalian transporter GLUT4.
Detaille D - Eur J Pharmacol - 14-Jul-1999; 377(1): 127-36
From NIH/NLM MEDLINE
NLM Citation ID:
10448935 (PubMed}
99376165 (MEDLINE)
Full Source Title:
European Journal of Pharmacology
Publication Type:
Journal Article
Language:
English
Author Affiliation:
Laboratory of Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology, Facultés Universitaires Notre-Dame de la Paix, Namur, Belgium. [email protected]
Authors:
Detaille D; Wiernsperger N; Devos P
Abstract:
The primary goal of this work was to better define, in molecular terms, the impact of metformin on hexose carriers. The methodology consisted of determining the zero-trans kinetics of 2-deoxy-D-glucose uptake for the mammalian insulin-sensitive glucose transporter (GLUT4) expressed in Xenopus laevis oocytes.



These cells possessed the specialized protein and, when treated with insulin (2 microM) plus metformin (20 microM), showed a markedly enhanced hexose transport activity (2.4-fold increase over basal) as compared to that of cells incubated in the presence of insulin alone (1.8-fold increase over basal)



. Kinetic analysis of this process revealed that insulin induced a similar response to that observed for the native carrier, i.e., a higher Vmax. When metformin was added together with insulin, we mainly recorded a significant decrease in apparent Km for the sugar transported, Vmax being only marginally modified. Parathyroid hormone (PTH), which is known to impair the intrinsic activity of GLUT4, prevented the stimulatory effect of metformin in both kinds of oocytes whereas cytochalasin D, which interferes with the translocation of carriers, was without effect.


These results suggest that metformin combined with insulin can maintain glucose homeostasis by increasing the catalytic activity of some hexose carriers or by improving the affinity of GLUT4 for glucose.





Chronic insulin effects on insulin signalling and GLUT4 endocytosis are reversed by metformin.
Pryor PR - Biochem J - 15-May-2000; 348 Pt 1: 83-91
From NIH/NLM MEDLINE
NLM Citation ID:
10794717 (PubMed}
20256767 (MEDLINE)
Full Source Title:
Biochemical Journal
Publication Type:
Journal Article
Language:
English
Author Affiliation:
Department of Biology and Biochemistry, University of Bath, UK.
Authors:
Pryor PR; Liu SC; Clark AE; Yang J; Holman GD; Tosh D
Abstract:
Decreases in insulin-responsive glucose transport and associated levels of cell surface GLUT4 occur in rat adipocytes maintained in culture for 20 h under hyperinsulinaemic and hyperglycaemic conditions. We have investigated whether this defect is due to reduced signalling from the insulin receptor, GLUT4 expression or impaired GLUT4 trafficking.


The effects of chronic insulin treatment on glucose transport and GLUT4 trafficking were ameliorated by inclusion of metformin in the culture medium.


In comparison with the ic insulin treatment attenuated changes in signalling processes leading to glucose transport. These included insulin receptor tyrosine phosphorylation, phosphoinositide 3-kinase activity and Akt activity, which were all reduced by 60-70%. Inclusion of metformin in the culture medium prevented the effects of the chronic insulin treatment on these signalling processes. In comparison with cells maintained in culture without insulin, the total expression of GLUT4 protein was not significantly altered by chronic insulin treatment, although the level of GLUT1 expression was increased. Trafficking rate constants for wortmannin-induced cell-surface loss of GLUT4 and GLUT1 were assessed by 2-N-4-(1-azi-2, 2,2-trifluoroethyl)benzoyl-1,3-bis(D-mannose-4-yloxy)-2-propyla min e (ATB-BMPA) photolabelling. In comparison with cells acutely treated with insulin, chronic insulin treatment resulted in a doubling of the rate constants for GLUT4 endocytosis. These results suggest that the GLUT4 endocytosis process is very sensitive to the perturbations in signalling that occur under hyperinsulinaemic and hyperglycaemic conditions, and that the resulting elevation of endocytosis accounts for the reduced levels of net GLUT4 translocation observed




Troglitazone not only increases GLUT4 but also induces its translocation in rat adipocytes.
Shintani M - Diabetes - 01-Oct-2001; 50(10): 2296-300
From NIH/NLM MEDLINE
NLM Citation ID:
11574411 (PubMed}
21458369 (MEDLINE)
Full Source Title:
Diabetes
Publication Type:
Journal Article
Language:
English
Author Affiliation:
Department of Medicine and Clinical Science, Kyoto University Graduate School of Medicine, Kyoto, Japan.
Authors:
Shintani M; Nishimura H; Yonemitsu S; Ogawa Y; Hayashi T; Hosoda K; Inoue G; Nakao K
Abstract:
Thiazolidinediones, insulin-sensitizing agents, have been reported to increase glucose uptake along with the expression of glucose transporters in adipocytes and cardiomyocytes. Recently, we have further suggested that the translocation of GLUT4 is stimulated by thiazolidinediones in L6 myocytes. However, the direct effects of thiazolidinediones on translocation of glucose transporters have not yet been determined. In this study, using hemagglutinin epitope-tagged GLUT4 (GLUT4-HA), we provide direct evidence of the effect of troglitazone on the translocation of GLUT4 in rat epididymal adipocytes. Primary cultures of rat adipocytes were transiently transfected with GLUT4-HA and overexpressed eightfold compared with endogenous GLUT4 in transfected cells. A total of 24 h of treatment with troglitazone (10(-4) mol/l) increased the cell surface level of GLUT4-HA by 1.5 +/- 0.03-fold (P < 0.01) without changing the total amount of GLUT4-HA, whereas it increased the protein level of endogenous GLUT4 (1.4-fold) without changing that of GLUT1. Thus, the direct effect on the translocation can be detected apart from the increase in endogenous GLUT4 content using GLUT4-HA. Troglitazone not only increased the translocation of GLUT4-HA on the cell surface in the basal state but also caused a leftward shift in the dose-response relations between GLUT4-HA translocation and insulin concentration in the medium (ED(50): from approximately 0.1 to 0.03 nmol/l). These effects may partly contribute to the antidiabetic activity of troglitazone in patients with obesity and type 2 diabetes.
 
befor 1 day i start Glucophage 500 two time per day
and after Reserach i found i have to increess the dosage to 1500
but im wording ?

how Glucophage work !! i mean some people can get fat when they use it and other people can get mass and get them into ketosis fast .. can anyone explain please

and about monitor blood sugar levels how much is Low ?

im trying to get into ketosis


Thanks
 
Zyglamail said:
. One thing I have noticed is sometimes get serioud headaches

Well Zygla, as stated some months ago, i get the same from doing only 2 iu/day subq.
It does not bother me to shoot 4 iu/day IM.

So i go IM.

Jeff
 
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