FRONTLOADING: Reality or Myth?

[SUST-MAN]

Is it really true?

Should you always frontload test?

I'm about to begin a nice testoviron cycle.

(a) should i run 1000mg the first 2 weeks..then drop it to 750mg?

or

(b) should i run 1250mg the first 2 weeks..then drop to 750mg?

or

(c) fuck frontloading...1000mg throught the whole cycle?

Thanks!

 

[TTORO]

Bro, if i know u, ur gonna frontload 1250 and drop to 1000. But then again anything else in that cycle ?

 

[swifty]

My first cycle I frontloaded 1600mg of Cyp for week one and two - then dropped to 800mg for the remainder. Same with the EQ. 1200mg first two weeks - 600mg for the remaining ten. Had amazing growth explosion at the begining. My body almost couldnt handle it tho.

Swift

 

[nandi12]

The idea behind frontloading comes from a common practice used in IV drug administration, Sust-man. To raise plasma levels fast and keep them there docs often give a big IV bolus of the drug to immediately achieve the desired plasma level, the decrease the dose significantly to maintain that desired level. Frontloading approximates this, but you will still get peaks and valleys in blood levels of the drug because it is impossible to regulate drug distribution from a depot site like you can with an IV drip.

 

[SofaGeorge]

Front loading is a myth. It makes people hold a ton of water fast. Int their heads they transalte that water to weight... weight = muscle... truth of it is muscle gain si slow and steady on a low dose cycle and on a high dose cycle... water on the other hand you can gain quickly.

 

[The Bigfella]

No I do not believe it is a myth, because with long acting, depot steroids their rate of release is very slow you need to increase the rate of intake to match the release rate that will be achieved during the cycle. By increasing the intake you can more quickly reach those peak values although as nandi pointed out the actual levels will still peak and trough a little due to the many factors affecting the steroid half-lives like volume of injection and sites injected to name but a few. The most commonly observed doses are double the cycle dose for weeks 1 and 2, so in your case would be 1500mgs/wk then dropping to 750mgs throughout.

Bigfella.

 

[liftsiron]

There are pro and cons to every method of cycle, I personally feel that I have the best results when I employ a reasonable dose frontload at the beginning of each new cycle. I rarely come completely off of anabolics but I do low dose bridges for a peroid of time followed by a front load leading into a moderate dose cycle. I never do high dose cycles any longer. I feel and look better year around doing things the way I do.

 

[wilson6]

BigFella,

What do you define as a long-acting depot? Give an example.

W6

 

[SUST-MAN]

TTORO...

Yes, i will also be using

75mg of Fina ED (that i made in my basement)
3iu of HGH ED (Serostrim W/ Hologram)
2iu of insulin after workout....and work my way up to 10iu
Week 1-5 will include DBOL
And the last 6 weeks....50mg Zambon Winny ED

I'll give you a call on monday. I'm BACK FROM VEGAS BABY!

 

[Zyglamail]

Front loading is a myth. It makes people hold a ton of water fast. Int their heads they transalte that water to weight... weight = muscle... truth of it is muscle gain si slow and steady on a low dose cycle and on a high dose cycle... water on the other hand you can gain quickly.

Myth? I like your logic backing up your claims, I guess all of us who have frontloaded and got strength gains in the cycle much much sooner, which in turn equates to more muscle over the course of the cycle are all full of shit. Thanks for clearing it up for us, I guess I will just go back to old school cycling and ignore the positive results I, and many others have had, because you think its a myth.

 

[The Bigfella]

BigFella,

What do you define as a long-acting depot? Give an example.

W6

Anything where the dose is released over a number of days like EQ, Deca, Enanthate, Cypionate is suited to the front-loading technique.

Bigfella.

 

[guards]

Front loading is a myth. It makes people hold a ton of water fast. Int their heads they transalte that water to weight... weight = muscle... truth of it is muscle gain si slow and steady on a low dose cycle and on a high dose cycle... water on the other hand you can gain quickly.

I agree

 

[SofaGeorge]

Myth? I like your logic backing up your claims, I guess all of us who have frontloaded and got strength gains in the cycle much much sooner, which in turn equates to more muscle over the course of the cycle are all full of shit. Thanks for clearing it up for us, I guess I will just go back to old school cycling and ignore the positive results I, and many others have had, because you think its a myth.

Zyg, I've tried front loading. I've never finished a cycle where I front loaded that I walked away from with extra muscle. All I ever saw was it made me hold water... my strength went up fast... and then after the cycle I had the same muscle gain that I would expect if I HADN'T front loaded.

Maybe your results are dramatcially different than mine, but to date I haven't gotten the kind of results that make me believe there is a benefit to front loading.

 

[Zyglamail]

I for one dont gain water, additionally the majority who have tried frontloading know the difference between water and muscle. I for one dont use weight as a means of monitoring gians, I use strength. For many on a typical sysle of long esters they dont start to see benefits until week 3-5 where the majority of those who have done frontloading report strength gains within 1-3 weeks. Like you said, your system may be a bit more stubborn when responding, but the majority of those who have tried it swear by it. So saying its a myth is a little bit of a stretch.

Im not going to run over all the prinicples again, but I personally find the longer the cycle the more my gains diminush at the end, becuase of that I like to keep my cycles under 10 weeks. In order to get the most benefit frontlaod allows me to make better gains up front which overall increases the effectivness of the cycle. Sure some dont resond like that, some can make slow steady gains on long cycles and a frontlaod may not be the way to go, but remember we all respond a bit different.

 

[SUST-MAN]

I'm going to frontload. From this thread, i have learned that some people say frontloading gives great benefits....others say it is the same.

Either way, IT CANT HURT!

Thanks guys!

 

[wilson6]

"Anything where the dose is released over a number of days like EQ, Deca, Enanthate, Cypionate is suited to the front-loading technique."

Check out some of the clinical papers on enanthate for example. While the parent drug is released over a number of days, the peak blood levels of test occur within 12 - 24 hrs following the dose. I'm not sure I buy the front load concept per se, I think what most are experiencing is a huge increase in blood concentrations of the AAS and probably an effect on secondary receptors beyond the AR and/or complete saturation and activation of the AR with an large initial dose.

I'll dig around for some citations.

W6

 

[go_hard_80]

bump

 

[Zyglamail]

"Anything where the dose is released over a number of days like EQ, Deca, Enanthate, Cypionate is suited to the front-loading technique."

Check out some of the clinical papers on enanthate for example. While the parent drug is released over a number of days, the peak blood levels of test occur within 12 - 24 hrs following the dose. I'm not sure I buy the front load concept per se, I think what most are experiencing is a huge increase in blood concentrations of the AAS and probably an effect on secondary receptors beyond the AR and/or complete saturation and activation of the AR with an large initial dose.

I'll dig around for some citations.

W6

The highest concentration from a SINGLE injection peaks in 12-24hours, but a cycle consist of much more than one injection does it not?

Bah, im not going to bother recounting this idea, but its obvious there are many still who do not graps the concept because they simply do not understand the basic elements and fundamentals.

 

[Dr.RobertBanner]

Of course frontloading is a good idea, you get blood levels up quicker where they are going to be rather than slowly build them up. Do the math. No reason to have sub-optimal blood levels the first few weeks of a cycle. Frontloading (double dose) all long acting esterfied steroids is a good idea in my book.

Just like slowly tapering off juice isn't really useful, slowly building up isn't either. Eat your veggies, get plently of sleep, look both ways before you cross the street, and FRONTLOAD!

 

[Andy13]

The highest concentration from a SINGLE injection peaks in 12-24hours, but a cycle consist of much more than one injection does it not?

Bah, im not going to bother recounting this idea, but its obvious there are many still who do not graps the concept because they simply do not understand the basic elements and fundamentals.

I agree..

Well... I have a post over on Platinum (best of Elite) that deals with front loading in excruciating detail. Why not fork over a few bucks and go check it out?

The one's who oppose it don't understand the fourth grade mathematics behind it's logic.

Hey Zyg-- these are the guys who will oppose front loading yet "start a cycle with test-prop to get things going.."

It kills me.

Andy

 

[ROAD DOG]

After listening to Zyg,I think I am going to start frontloading,I am one of those guy's that don't gain much after about 6 weeks,so I might as well hit it hard the first few weeks.

 

[gUiLe]

TTORO...

Yes, i will also be using

75mg of Fina ED (that i made in my basement)
3iu of HGH ED (Serostrim W/ Hologram)
2iu of insulin after workout....and work my way up to 10iu
Week 1-5 will include DBOL
And the last 6 weeks....50mg Zambon Winny ED

I'll give you a call on monday. I'm BACK FROM VEGAS BABY!

That's a serious cycle sust-man. If that's you in that avatar, maybe that's too much for ya
g

 

[SUST-MAN]

That's a serious cycle sust-man. If that's you in that avatar, maybe that's too much for ya
g

check my gallery. If you still feel that way....then maybe i'll consider lowering my dosage.....hehe

 

[Andy13]

check my gallery. If you still feel that way....then maybe i'll consider lowering my dosage.....hehe

I'm not going to look at your gallery.. But there is no need to lower your doses based on size.. Perhaps increase dose based on size, but not lower.

Using high doses of AAS will only help you to reach your goal faster.

Andy

 

[Andy13]

Front loading is a myth. It makes people hold a ton of water fast. Int their heads they transalte that water to weight... weight = muscle... truth of it is muscle gain si slow and steady on a low dose cycle and on a high dose cycle... water on the other hand you can gain quickly.

Let me ask you this.. If you planned to use (for the sake of discussion) 75mg of trenbolone acetate/day on a cycle.

Would you start by taking 25mg ED for the first week followed by 50mg for the second and then finally getting up to 75mg ED by the third?

Well, you should if you believe that front loading does not work. This is similar to what happens when you take a long ester, such as deca, at xmg/week with no front load. YOu don't see maximal gains until you are built up to maximal theraputic blood levels. For deca, this doesn't happen until AT LEAST the third week when you run a constant dose (this is readily varified mathematically, btw)..

It's not like your blood levels are much, much higher for the first week and then drop down for the remaining weeks of the cycle when a front end load is used; you simply get up to 'mid-cycle' blood levels faster. This results in, you guessed it, more immediate gains.

Andy

 

[wilson6]

Yes I do have a clue and I understand the concept of frontloading based on steady state depot conc., I was thinking short-term high dose to achieve an immediate blood surge and that longer lasting esters don't cause this, my point was that even an ester with a 5-day half-life still causes an immediate peak in blood conc., after a single inj. Anyhow........

Front loading makes sense particularly if the cycle is relatively short. There are two ways to front load if the goal is to achieve steady state quickly (within the first week). For example, let’s assume someone was going to run a 12 week cycle of enanthate @ 1000 mg per week.

Steady state depot conc would take roughly 5 weeks to achieve, almost 10 weeks for absolute steady state with weekly inj, no front load. Therefore, blood conc are less than optimal for 1000 mg a week dosing until about 5 weeks into the cycle. Steady state conc., assuming a 5-d t½ at 1000 mg/wk would be about 1600 mg. If you want that steady state achieved quickly so blood levels are maximized, there are two ways to do it.

1) Front load with a single 1600 mg dose on day one, then weekly 1000 mg doses.

2) 1000 mg on day 1, 1000 mg on day 4, then 1000 mg on day 10, then weekly 1000 mg doses. This gets you to steady state by day 4.

The difference between the two protocols will likely be the peak conc of test, E2 and DHT in the blood at any given point in time. Some guys on this board seem to have a pretty specific threshold conc. for sides such as gyno and/or prostatitis. I would think there would be less of a surge of DHT and E2 with a tapering inj frequency up front vs a single high dose to front load. Either way, they both work out to the same steady state within the first 4-5 days.

Using the formula in the van der Vies paper, Acta Endocrinol 1985 suppl., if you know the half-life of the AAS you can set up the formula in Excel and figure out what front-load dose/protocol you want to use depending on how variable you want your blood levels to be during a cycle. You can alter steady state by altering inj frequency and/or dose.

W6

 

[gUiLe]

check my gallery. If you still feel that way....then maybe i'll consider lowering my dosage.....hehe

Just did. Nice. You should get great results with you next one
my Jersey bro. Good luck!
g

 

[SUST-MAN]

I hope so....!

 

[Zyglamail]

1) Front load with a single 1600 mg dose on day one, then weekly 1000 mg doses.

2) 1000 mg on day 1, 1000 mg on day 4, then 1000 mg on day 10, then weekly 1000 mg doses. This gets you to steady state by day 4.

Andy's view poitn may be a little different than mine but frontloading is not the whole concept and cant be properly utilized without taking other techniques into consideration. If you try and frontload by doing a once every 4-5 day or worse a once weekly injection you are setting yourself up for failure. Maybe I am reading your posts wrong, but you views on frontloading (and hell, everyone who argues it for that matter) are used out of context with the "big picture" and in doing so, its easy to see why there is doubt as to its effectivness.

For example when I frontloaded last cycle I shot test and EQ EVERY DAY for the first 2 weeks, not one big injection. There is more too proper frontloading than simply doubleing the dose and calling it good.

 

[SUST-MAN]

So....Everyday is better than Mondays & Thursdays?

 

[Zyglamail]

So....Everyday is better than Mondays & Thursdays?

Yes, but within reason. No sense shooting less than a CC though, however if your cycle is large enough you may find you have to shoot more than 2x a week to avoid too large a depot. Shooting more frequently combined with larger upfront doses go hand in hand and why so much of this thread is out of context, and hence makes frontloading look unappealing. Additionally, not taking into account the size of the depot, shooting too much at once can make you feel like shit.

 

[Andy13]

Andy's view poitn may be a little different than mine but frontloading is not the whole concept and cant be properly utilized without taking other techniques into consideration. If you try and frontload by doing a once every 4-5 day or worse a once weekly injection you are setting yourself up for failure. Maybe I am reading your posts wrong, but you views on frontloading (and hell, everyone who argues it for that matter) are used out of context with the "big picture" and in doing so, its easy to see why there is doubt as to its effectivness.

For example when I frontloaded last cycle I shot test and EQ EVERY DAY for the first 2 weeks, not one big injection. There is more too proper frontloading than simply doubleing the dose and calling it good.

Na HA! Zyg!!

There's this homeless guy I see every now and then. I don't like to ignore people when walking down the street etc.. I've never given him a dime.. But i've probably spent a gazillion hours shooting the shit with him... I did get him a free membership to the gym (as I think about it). Anyway, enough with the background information.. This guy wanted to front load some test too... I told him how I would do it.. By doubling the doses for the first three shots then falling back from there.. He wasn't comfortable with that. So what I think he ended up doing was dividing the front end load out over two weeks like you do. This guy is a freakin' math genius so he figured it out some how that by doing this plan, he wouldn't over-shoot his target mg/week.. (son of a bitch did this without excel even (I think)).

Anyway, he's loving his cycle.. So I guess it's all good.

Andy

 

[Pat Mycroch]

How does a homeless guy afford test?

 

[wilson6]

They give it out along with canned goods at the food shelters.

W6

 

[##spiderbaby##]

Yes, but within reason. No sense shooting less than a CC though, however if your cycle is large enough you may find you have to shoot more than 2x a week to avoid too large a depot. Shooting more frequently combined with larger upfront doses go hand in hand and why so much of this thread is out of context, and hence makes frontloading look unappealing. Additionally, not taking into account the size of the depot, shooting too much at once can make you feel like shit.

This is what happened to me some time ago. I frontloaded EQ and it was my second cycle. I frontoaded 1600mg of EQ in the first 3 days along with test cyp I belive at 1200mgs and tren. The results were not good in my case. I became sick rather quickly and ended up ending the cycle after 2 weeks because I felt so ill. I attribute it all to frontloading that much and being a newbie. So a word of caution. Dont over do it. Theres always time for more, later.

 

[Pat Mycroch]

They give it out along with canned goods at the food shelters.

W6

Hmmmm, this homeless gig doesn't sound half bad. Free food and free test... what more is there to life?

 

[Twitched]

You should listen to what Wilson6 is saying, he is making sense as well.

I'm a mathematician, so I thoroughly understand the whole "theory" behind frontloading. The question is.. is it necessary? Is it necessary to shoot gallons of gear into your body just because you cant wait a week or two (if it even takes that long) to reach a blood concentration quasi-equilibrium? Of course frontloading gives superior gains. You're using more gear. More gear means more gains.

In addition, like wilson said (who is making a lot of sense), things like depot size, etc, effect the way the "system" works. It's not going to be a pure logarithmic decay over a fixed halflife. We wish it was so cut and dry.

I personally think a mini up taper (by not frontloading) of a few weeks is a good thing.. do we really need to smack our systems with a baseball bat?

And strength gains can very well be a simple function of leverage. Water in your muscle increases the distance between fiber and bone, hence giving it more torque across the joint. And no one can tell exactly how much intra-muscular water they are holding. I dont care how much liquidex is bieng taken.

why not front load, and back load while you are at it? I bet the gains would be MUCH better..

 

[NFG123]

You should listen to what Wilson6 is saying, he is making sense as well.


why not front load, and back load while you are at it? I bet the gains would be MUCH better..

Twitched is an expert at "backloading." Just ask his boyfriend

NFG

 

[Twitched]

Twitched is an expert at "backloading." Just ask his boyfriend

NFG

Thought you wanted that kept discreet

 

[Dan2232]

damn....damn....damn....damn.....damn!!!!!!!!!

I thought frontloading was done in one day. Oh well, next time I'll know. Don't feel like doing 8cc's or more in one day again like I did at the beginning of this cycle.

I did get great gains really early though !! Thank you to everyone who cleared this up. I learn something new every day on this board.

 

[GMS]

I still want to know how the homeless guy is doing a cycle?

 

[capnnoway]

I still want to know how the homeless guy is doing a cycle?


me too!
I can barely afford all the food I have to eat when I'm on, how does he do it? Where does he plug in the blender for his protein shakes? How does he afford gear?

I'm seriously considering this life style, if its as good as it sounds!

 

[SUST-MAN]

I see a world....WHERE ALL GEAR IS FREE!
I see a world....WHERE ALL GYMS ARE FREE!
I see a world....WHERE I DONT HAVE TO WORK!
I see a world....WHERE PEOPLE GIVE ME MONEY!

Is this a fantasy?....guess not!

 

[The Bigfella]

The peak concentration time is a little irrelevant, it is more the time over which the steroid decays (half-life) that you are trying to even out to maximum levels in a faster time frame to bring gains forward in the cycle. I really don't understand why the arguments against it exist, if you don't wish to do it, then don't do it, but the theory and practice of front-loading works.

Zyg made a very good point about depot size, which plays a factor in uptake, it is best to spread the front-load shots around various muscle groups for better effect IMO.

Bigfella.

 

[capnnoway]

DAMN TO HELL, I'M NOT KIDDING
I want to know about the homeless guy!!!


I still want to know how the homeless guy is doing a cycle?


me too!
I can barely afford all the food I have to eat when I'm on, how does he do it? Where does he plug in the blender for his protein shakes? How does he afford gear?

I'm seriously considering this life style, if its as good as it sounds!

 

[Andy13]

DAMN TO HELL, I'M NOT KIDDING
I want to know about the homeless guy!!!


I still want to know how the homeless guy is doing a cycle?


me too!
I can barely afford all the food I have to eat when I'm on, how does he do it? Where does he plug in the blender for his protein shakes? How does he afford gear?

I'm seriously considering this life style, if its as good as it sounds!

Come on, guys.. You really should feel sorry for the guy.. The dude must have fought in Vietnam or something.. I'm not sure.. He hasn't told me and I'm afraid to ask... He's not all there.. But he's still a bro!

Where does he get his food? I don't know.. I don't talk to him every day. I take him out to KFC once in a while, but I don't know what else he eats. I just tell him to eat everything he gets his hands on.... He says "I already do...."

I can tell you though, he's making some progress.. I haven't seen him in a while since he told me he was off to a good cycle.. He usually works out in the mornings so when he wants to ask me about something, he'll either wait around in the evenings until I decide to roll in or else he forks over $0.35 to call (I keep telling him.. "man, you've gotta get a pre-paid calling card!").

But, yeah, he's a real trooper..

Andy

 

[SUST-MAN]

Some times...Homeless people have alot of money.

 

[Pat Mycroch]

They probably save a lot of money on rent.

 

[capnnoway]

I'm totaly serious here, no joke:

You said he got a "free" membership to the gym. That's cool, how'd you pull that off?
Plus, if goes to the gym then he must use there showers so he probably doesn't look as bad as the average homeless guy.

Just wondering, if he's homeless and jobless why doesn't the just work out in the morning and in night, what else does he have to do? I know that's what I'd do.

What are his training goals? Size, health, better cardio?

Again, I'm not being a smart ass, so please respond.

I have considered living in a tent on the beach in the past and just getting a gym membership so I could have shower and workout every day.... so I'm curious how its working for him.

 

[capnnoway]

bump

 

[capnnoway]

bump

 

[SUST-MAN]

He should get a job as a trainer! All he has to do is pass that little test! Seriously.

 

[trenbolone]

Just a quick question for you "front-load gurus"

Started my cycle today, but just want to know whether this is ok or should I do a frontloading dose on wk2 as well;

wk1: cyp 1000mg, EQ 1200mg
wk2-10: cyp 500mg, EQ 600mg
(wk2-4 anadrol 50mg ED... maybe...)

(Injection days are monday and thursday, so I inject half the week's dosage on monday and the other half on thursday... is this OK when frontloading?)

 

[wildmonkey]

frontloading

I have never used the frontloading techniqiue i am starting the cycle below in a few weeks

25mg dianabol 4 weeks
300mg/wk deca 10 weeks
500mg/wk sust 10 weeks
400mg/wk eq 10 weeks

clomid

what kinda dosages would i run to frontload this cycle??

 

[como]

Front Loading is a big reality...

Part 1...

When you front load you are basically trying to get your plasma levels of gear up to the optimal range for whatever dose you are taking.

Say you are taking 10mg of test a week (for ease of calculation), if the half life is 7 days, and you are injecting once a week, then at the start of your second week, you will have 5mg of test floating arround in you body + another 10mg from an injection.

So at the start of week two, you will have 15mg of test in your system. At the end of that week you will have 7.5mg of test left in your system. So another injection will give you a combined total of 17.5mg and so on and so on... so by the forth week, you are reaching the peak optimal dose for whatever dosage you are on...

... so on a front load you generally double your choosen dosages... eg 20mg, so by the end of the first week, that becomes 10mg left in your system... add another 10mg, and you are back upto the optimal levels for your choosen dose....

to be continued>

 

[como]

Front Loading is a big reality...

Part 1...

When you front load you are basically trying to get your plasma levels of gear up to the optimal range for whatever dose you are taking.

Say you are taking 10mg of test a week (for ease of calculation), if the half life is 7 days, and you are injecting once a week, then at the start of your second week, you will have 5mg of test floating arround in you body + another 10mg from an injection.

So at the start of week two, you will have 15mg of test in your system. At the end of that week you will have 7.5mg of test left in your system. So another injection will give you a combined total of 17.5mg and so on and so on... so by the forth week, you are reaching the peak optimal dose for whatever dosage you are on...

... so on a front load you generally double your choosen dosages... eg 20mg, so by the end of the first week, that becomes 10mg left in your system... add another 10mg, and you are back upto the optimal levels for your choosen dose....

to be continued>

 

[como]

Part to of above post

NOW THIS IS A SUPER SIMPLIFIED EXPLANATION AND IT IS A HELL OF ALOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT - I HAVE MASSIVELY SIMPLIFIED IT FOR YOU.

So front loading prevents a 4-5 week slow build up to the optimal levels of gear for whatever dosage you are using, so in affect front loading avoids a tapering in effect - because if you are on gear for 6/8/10/12 weeks, why take five weeks to reach a constant like plasma level?

Now I haven't gone into the absortion, distribution, metabolism and excretion ideas behind the pharmacokinetics which would be relevant in this discussion, because it would end up being 4000 words long, but lets have a look at Deca

10 day half life, should you double the dose for the first injection and inject every 10 days, or times the first dose by 1.666 and inject every week, you can think of a million ways of doing it - it's upto you how... each way has it's ups and downs (no pun intended).

Hope this MASSIVE simplification of the issue helped you out.

Como