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France votes down EU constitution
- Thread starter BUBBLES
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Nilt said:You're in Venezuela what do you care?
Somebody looking for you or something
Anyway I didn't read the whole thing but I've read some parts of it that I find unacceptable.
I stopped listening to the whole EU thing the moment they took up second world countries in the East and even dared mention Turkey, which is completely corrupt, full of internal conflict, has more illiteracy than the rest of the EU combined and is a muslim nation. What I'd really like is to have Scandinavia and Switzerland come along... but they can't be arsed obviously, specially since we hang out with the paupers now.
I don't like PAUPERS
The French no certainly rendered the Dutch vote this week somewhat irrelevant.
I don't see a problem taking countries from the East into the EU.
What, is it OK to use those countries for their resources and cheap labour and yet they are not good enough to become part of the EU especially when they are European countries after all?
Do I detect some sort for racism here? Look at the UK who lets refugees from India in their counrty, look at Germany and the France who lets Turkish in. Why shouldn't the East European countries become part of EU when they themselves are European. Think again, would you rather have non Europeans as part of Europe or Europeans who are from Europe?
I don't care how poor the Eastern Europe may look, they certainly have a lot to offer with regard to values, culture, civilization, literacy, resources.
Nilt
Banned
It wasn't their government that voted it down YASMINA and so there's no official reason.
It was a referendum, civilians voted on it. 78% turned out and 55% voted Non.
People are pissed off at their own federal government for problems and then that same government begs them to vote yes so they vote no.
People are also pissed off they're letting Turkey join in the future. Now that this constitution got slapped the chance to that has been reduced.
It was a referendum, civilians voted on it. 78% turned out and 55% voted Non.
People are pissed off at their own federal government for problems and then that same government begs them to vote yes so they vote no.
People are also pissed off they're letting Turkey join in the future. Now that this constitution got slapped the chance to that has been reduced.
pintoca
New member
nothing wrong with your options... it happens from time to time.
as for France voting no... I guess there are 2 sides to that coin:
1. The people pasing an invoice to the Govt, as you say
2. A lot of ignorance about what the proposed Constitution was all about: Human rights, unified Inmigration laws, Security measures and so on.
I for one, read the entire thing and have a number of friends working on f their PhD thesis on that topic (since it is a once in a lifetime chance), so I do get a number of different opinions.
The common denominator is: It is actually a good thing, since it will bring the less advance members to a same level of basic laws and rights and NO, it was not as earth-shattering as portrayed by some media...
in a sense, I believe with this, we ALL lost.
as for France voting no... I guess there are 2 sides to that coin:
1. The people pasing an invoice to the Govt, as you say
2. A lot of ignorance about what the proposed Constitution was all about: Human rights, unified Inmigration laws, Security measures and so on.
I for one, read the entire thing and have a number of friends working on f their PhD thesis on that topic (since it is a once in a lifetime chance), so I do get a number of different opinions.
The common denominator is: It is actually a good thing, since it will bring the less advance members to a same level of basic laws and rights and NO, it was not as earth-shattering as portrayed by some media...
in a sense, I believe with this, we ALL lost.
Nilt
Banned
pintoca said:
You're in Venezuela what do you care?
Somebody looking for you or something
Anyway I didn't read the whole thing but I've read some parts of it that I find unacceptable.
I stopped listening to the whole EU thing the moment they took up second world countries in the East and even dared mention Turkey, which is completely corrupt, full of internal conflict, has more illiteracy than the rest of the EU combined and is a muslim nation. What I'd really like is to have Scandinavia and Switzerland come along... but they can't be arsed obviously, specially since we hang out with the paupers now.
I don't like PAUPERS
The French no certainly rendered the Dutch vote this week somewhat irrelevant.
YASMINA said:
Yes the reason the majority of the populace votes against immigrants previously and europe is usually xenophobia or tinged with it. Every independance party plays to these racist threads in society and has racist members within it...
But what does the east offer us? Economy is not my strong point (putting it mildly) but they will require far more subsidy than the EU member states currently get but be able to contribute far less.
Easier immigration will mean more will leave their countries and come here, either to sign onto a welfare system or worse bring vice etc. Business wise we have plenty of trade and industry in Europe, surely giving contracts to EU companies means its a better way of keeping money within the EU. I am all for filling shortage of skills with foreign labour but not when it means that is cheaper than the current decent wage (quality and leaving home grown jobseekers empty handed) plus it depraves these countries of the skills they need too
Look at poland...It got some money, donated by NATO I think (possibly even the EU) and it bought American F-16's with it. why should we play ball with them, why should we sign on economically and industrially weaker countries and make a large organisation more cumbersome.
Remove these fears and the rest of it (human rights etc) will sway people too it
Nilt
Banned
YASMINA said:I don't see a problem taking countries from the East into the EU.
What, is it OK to use those countries for their resources and cheap labour and yet they are not good enough to become part of the EU especially when they are European countries after all?
Do I detect some sort for racism here? Look at the UK who lets refugees from India in their counrty, look at Germany and the France who lets Turkish in. Why shouldn't the East European countries become part of EU when they themselves are European. Think again, would you rather have non Europeans as part of Europe or Europeans who are from Europe?
I don't care how poor the Eastern Europe may look, they certainly have a lot to offer with regard to values, culture, civilization, literacy, resources.
I don't see how racism has anything to do with anything. East Europeans are Caucasian. I know Eatern Europeans are nice people and have a valuable culture but they're just too damn poor. I don't want to adopt them and care for them until they grow up just because they're nice people. That's not how it (can) work(s).
The EU should be a trade circle or at best some kind of nation, not a charity.
Turkey is to EU like tabasco sauce is to beer. It 'll spoil the whole thing.
danielson said:
I dislike the word xenophobia. Are we just supposed to let anyone join us just because otherwise we're being suppressors or euro supremacists? "-phobia" also implies fear, I'm not afraid of these people. Neither am I ignorant of them. I just don't need or want them in my nation or my EU.
We don't have that responsibility. It's not our fault that living in Turkey or Eastern Europe (for most people) sucks ass. Neither is it our fault that many Africans can't make a living. We have to come to terms with this and stop hindering our own evolution and feeling guilty for being succesful, when the reason we are is the only reason the other people can live at all, albeit crappy.
I know this is a very right wing and harsh view but that's the truth as I see it.
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Nilt said:
I don't know which country you live in but like I said before France has already adopted many non Europeans on the basis of Human Rights issue, Germany, UK, Belgium and other countries have done the same.
So Western Europe who oppose Eastern Europe are in contradiction because they have many people from Middle East etc who are a lot more poor, uneducated and clash a lot more with the Western society than EE ever did. Where is your priority here? Who should become part of EU and who should be able to move more freely in Europe ---Eastern Europe or Middle East/Africa?
I think it should be Eastern Europe first and foremost. Lets say there was a war between EU (christinas) and a muslim country. Who do you think EU would run to and who will be the first to help?
Nilt
Banned
YASMINA said:
I am against any form of immigration that does not directly help the receiving nation.
you could say the people of france by being against Turkish membership are being inconsistent, but it was never the french people who wanted to receive immigrants from poor and islamic countries, it was the european governments who falsely thought importing cheap labour this way would benefit them. This process got started in the late 60s and 70s when all nationalism was still shunned for association with nazism and people were still riding the left wing wave of the 60s. The first labourers coming here were meant to stay for a short time but they ended up staying, then bringing their whole families and it all went from there. This insight has pretty much become mainstream and accepted now and is confirmed in the more serious branches of the media.
The no vote, was also a voice against the development of Europe into the American, relatively Libertarian direction. The right is against the plans because it will adopt poor people which only helps the upper 0.1% because they'll simply have a larger land to rule and will break down member nation identities, the left is against them because it will induce a further breakdown of the welfare states.
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Nilt said:
Ok, I understand what you are saying BUT now it is a little late to turn back people to their countries and since this is becoming a bigger problem each year for the Western Europeans/EU I believe that the only way to stop it is by getting Eastern Europe involved too.
Do you know much about the history of EE and Greece where the Turkish invaded those part of the continent for hundreds of years and stole many resources and raped women? I am not saying it will happen again (one never knows) but it is better to have a UNITED EUROPE to preserve that civilization and to preserve any further breakdown of a nation's identity. I certainly don't want it to be dissolved in any way and I would rather have EE in than out.
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Nilt
Banned
YASMINA said:
If you are against the wearing down or dissolvation of real European culture we have a strong common objective there.
I have visited cities in Eastern Europe and they're beautiful and people look nice dress well and are intelligent. Most are also damn poor and live in half empty worn down plaster apartments and are very cynical and desperate.
I just don't, don't understand why they can't build these countries up from the inside. They are near-anarchies, the mob are the richest and most powerful people around most parts and anyone who can compensate with money doesn't have to bother with laws. I just hope Eastern Europe will blossom again on its own, blossom like the architecture proves it once did, not by becoming dependant of those European nations that were never trampled by the red monster but by order and development.
I suppose that since these nations are now already in the union I should let it rest. I see potential there but I don't see why the growth isn't already coming.
Turkey is just a non-issue IMO. I have never even met anyone who felt strongly positive about taking them up. It's pure suppression and undemocratic if they ever get to join.
pintoca
New member
Nilt said:You're in Venezuela what do you care?
Somebody looking for you or something
Anyway I didn't read the whole thing but I've read some parts of it that I find unacceptable.
I stopped listening to the whole EU thing the moment they took up second world countries in the East and even dared mention Turkey, which is completely corrupt, full of internal conflict, has more illiteracy than the rest of the EU combined and is a muslim nation. What I'd really like is to have Scandinavia and Switzerland come along... but they can't be arsed obviously, specially since we hang out with the paupers now.
I don't like PAUPERS
The French no certainly rendered the Dutch vote this week somewhat irrelevant.
I take it you don't read either my location or any of my previous posts where I mention where I live
milo hobgoblin
New member
The French people who voted it down felt that it would threaten their generous social system and create a huge influx of cheap labor.
and they accuse America of being Xenophobic and isolationist. LOL
and they accuse America of being Xenophobic and isolationist. LOL
Nilt said:
Hi, I am here. Yes I agree that it would be nice if the other Scandinavian country joined the EU but we don't know yet. Switzerland is in limbo at the moment, they have not signed the papers unfortunately.
I am not too sure what will happen to Turkey. They have been waiting to join the EU since 1956 if I am not mistaken and they don't seem to give up wanting to get in.
Turkey has already threated EU that if they are not allowed to join they will stop trade and some sort of hatered will develope between Turkey and EU and between the christian and the muslim faith.
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Nilt
Banned
Luckily so far we've never faced any opposition between Christian and Muslim faith.YASMINA said:
Where did you hear of such threatening? Hopefully the EU is not intimidated by such nonsense.
What I really meant to say is, what nation are you in, looking at your Location. Are you a judge?
Nilt said:
no, but thats not what I said. Perhaps the generalisation that most of the people who do vote against it are doing it for those reasons was wrong, but you only have to look at the major opponents of it and the undercurrent of racism in the anti-europe parties to realise this is the underlying reason for a lot of them
I don't want europe to get any bigger now or for it to allow immigrants in. But while in some regards you can argue its your country, you can't close of immigration all together. I also agree that immigrants should be favoured if they bring skills, but you cannotstop asylum just because you dont think they deserve it
When you look at what europe has done over the last 100 or so years in
Africa are you still so unsympathetic to immigrants plights? When we effectivly instituted most of their dictatorial regiemes, took natural resources at lower prices with force and overturned any opposition by supporting any nutcase, are we to now turn our back on former colonies just because you dont 'need or want them'?
Ultimately africa is a scar in the concience of the world, and its a direct result of the wests actions that it is in such a bad state. To refuse immigration totally and to take a moral stance as to the reason why equates to hypocracy IMO
However, that said eastern europe and turkey I agree with, Im nopt aware as to how we are responsible for their woes. I do think that we should allow immigrants in to replace shortages in our own labour force as we have always done but we should be giving preference to those with skills and rejecting those with records, screening for TB and allowing asylum, but monitoring their time in the country closer, and returning them when their counrtry is safe. I am all for more strngent control but not to halt immigration whatsoever
If the constitution was able to remove peoples fears over this Im sure it will get voted through, the fact it was so close means the 2nd draft needs to be better
spentagn
New member
german constitution doesn't allow for a federal referendum.
http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/040830114505.6y71k4kn
http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/040830114505.6y71k4kn
PIGEON-RAT
New member
Boy some people are out of the loop... Turkey is very close to being accepted... so get yourself ready for the inflow of fine coffee and carpets.
Europe has benefited tremendously from the formation of the EU and the Euro, even though the area really doesn't fit most of the requirements for an optimum currency area. Many of the barriers toward that end are actually political or cultural, and the EU constitution may have provided the framework for the EU to become more of a common currency area and take full advantage of being a united body with a shared currency, but that really wasn't considered in this whole debacle.
Much of the opposition to the constitution in France was rooted in anti-capitalist sentiments, showing how little people understand how the EU has helped Europe. It has pushed for liberalization of markets inside Europe, as well as liberalization of trade as a member of the WTO, yet this is precisely what people object to.
Europeans want unity and a stronger voice in the presence of the US, but they reject that which has been making it possible.
Europe has benefited tremendously from the formation of the EU and the Euro, even though the area really doesn't fit most of the requirements for an optimum currency area. Many of the barriers toward that end are actually political or cultural, and the EU constitution may have provided the framework for the EU to become more of a common currency area and take full advantage of being a united body with a shared currency, but that really wasn't considered in this whole debacle.
Much of the opposition to the constitution in France was rooted in anti-capitalist sentiments, showing how little people understand how the EU has helped Europe. It has pushed for liberalization of markets inside Europe, as well as liberalization of trade as a member of the WTO, yet this is precisely what people object to.
Europeans want unity and a stronger voice in the presence of the US, but they reject that which has been making it possible.
