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dullboy

New member
see, better than stripping...

http://reuters.myway.com/article/20...01_N02301962_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-LIFE-WORK-DC.html





NEW YORK (Reuters) - A full-time stay-at-home mother would earn $134,121 a year if paid for all her work, an amount similar to a top U.S. ad executive, a marketing director or a judge, according to a study released on Wednesday.

A mother who works outside the home would earn an extra $85,876 annually on top of her actual wages for the work she does at home, according to the study by Waltham, Massachusetts-based compensation experts Salary.com.

To reach the projected pay figures, the survey calculated the earning power of the 10 jobs respondents said most closely comprise a mother's role -- housekeeper, day-care teacher, cook, computer operator, laundry machine operator, janitor, facilities manager, van driver, chief executive and psychologist.

"You can't put a dollar value on it. It's worth a lot more," said Kristen Krauss, 35, as she hurriedly packed her four children, all aged under 8, into a minivan in New York while searching frantically for her keys. "Just look at me."

Employed mothers reported spending on average 44 hours a week at their outside job and 49.8 hours at their home job, while the stay-at-home mother worked 91.6 hours a week, it showed.

An estimated 5.6 million women in the United States are stay-at-home mothers with children under age 15, according to the most recent U.S. Census Bureau data.

NOT 'JUST A MOM'

"It's good to acknowledge the job that's being done, and that it's not that these women are settling for 'just a mom,"' said Bill Coleman, senior vice president of compensation at Salary.com. "They are actually doing an awful lot."

According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, some 26 million women with children under age 18 work in the nation's paid labor force.

Both employed and stay-at-home mothers said the lowest-paying job of housekeeper was their most common role, with employed mothers working 7.2 hours a week as housekeeper and stay-at-home mothers working 22.1 hours in that role.

"Every husband I've ever spoken to said, 'I'm keeping my job. You keep yours.' It's a tough one," said Gillian Forrest, 39, a stay-at-home mother of 22-month-old Alex in New York. "I don't know if you could put a dollar amount on it but it would be nice to get something."

To compile its study, Salary.com surveyed about 400 mothers online over the last two months.

Salary.com offers a Web site (http://www.mom.salary.com) where mothers can calculate what they could be paid, based on how many children they have, where they live and other factors. The site will produce a printable document that looks like a paycheck, Coleman said.

"It's obviously not negotiable," he said.

On average, the mother who works outside the house earns a base pay of $62,798 for a 40-hour at-home work week and $23,078 in overtime; a stay-at-home mother earned a base pay of $45,697 and $88,424 in overtime, it said.

In a Salary.com study conducted last year, stay-at-home mothers earned $131,471. The potential earnings of mothers who work outside the home was not calculated in the previous study.
 
Great, now if women can find a man that makes $700K/year maybe he'll kick her $130K of it....fat chance of my future wife seeing that. She'll already be getting the best d*ck of her life. What more payment could a woman want? :)
 
dullboy has a good friend who is in the process of handing her husband his head in a divorce and the judge is using this methodology to determine alimony.
 
dullboy said:
dullboy has a good friend who is in the process of handing her husband his head in a divorce and the judge is using this methodology to determine alimony.

Is he taking into consideration the fact that many of the stated roles are also performed in one way or another by the husband? I guess I shouldn't assume that since some husbands don't but just curious.
 
dullboy said:
see, better than stripping...

http://reuters.myway.com/article/20...01_N02301962_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-LIFE-WORK-DC.html





NEW YORK (Reuters) - A full-time stay-at-home mother would earn $134,121 a year if paid for all her work, an amount similar to a top U.S. ad executive, a marketing director or a judge, according to a study released on Wednesday.

A mother who works outside the home would earn an extra $85,876 annually on top of her actual wages for the work she does at home, according to the study by Waltham, Massachusetts-based compensation experts Salary.com.

To reach the projected pay figures, the survey calculated the earning power of the 10 jobs respondents said most closely comprise a mother's role -- housekeeper, day-care teacher, cook, computer operator, laundry machine operator, janitor, facilities manager, van driver, chief executive and psychologist.

"You can't put a dollar value on it. It's worth a lot more," said Kristen Krauss, 35, as she hurriedly packed her four children, all aged under 8, into a minivan in New York while searching frantically for her keys. "Just look at me."

Employed mothers reported spending on average 44 hours a week at their outside job and 49.8 hours at their home job, while the stay-at-home mother worked 91.6 hours a week, it showed.

An estimated 5.6 million women in the United States are stay-at-home mothers with children under age 15, according to the most recent U.S. Census Bureau data.

NOT 'JUST A MOM'

"It's good to acknowledge the job that's being done, and that it's not that these women are settling for 'just a mom,"' said Bill Coleman, senior vice president of compensation at Salary.com. "They are actually doing an awful lot."

According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, some 26 million women with children under age 18 work in the nation's paid labor force.

Both employed and stay-at-home mothers said the lowest-paying job of housekeeper was their most common role, with employed mothers working 7.2 hours a week as housekeeper and stay-at-home mothers working 22.1 hours in that role.

"Every husband I've ever spoken to said, 'I'm keeping my job. You keep yours.' It's a tough one," said Gillian Forrest, 39, a stay-at-home mother of 22-month-old Alex in New York. "I don't know if you could put a dollar amount on it but it would be nice to get something."

To compile its study, Salary.com surveyed about 400 mothers online over the last two months.

Salary.com offers a Web site (http://www.mom.salary.com) where mothers can calculate what they could be paid, based on how many children they have, where they live and other factors. The site will produce a printable document that looks like a paycheck, Coleman said.

"It's obviously not negotiable," he said.

On average, the mother who works outside the house earns a base pay of $62,798 for a 40-hour at-home work week and $23,078 in overtime; a stay-at-home mother earned a base pay of $45,697 and $88,424 in overtime, it said.

In a Salary.com study conducted last year, stay-at-home mothers earned $131,471. The potential earnings of mothers who work outside the home was not calculated in the previous study.

Nice that Reuters recognized the (dollar) value of being a stay-at-home parent. Unfortunately, my exhusband never did.
 
bluepeter said:
Is he taking into consideration the fact that many of the stated roles are also performed in one way or another by the husband? I guess I shouldn't assume that since some husbands don't but just curious.

There are MANY wonderful men that perform many of the duties listed and more, but generally - that is NOT the case.

Why do think that most women choose to return to the workforce when statistically it has been proven it is CHEAPER for the women to stay home?

Discuss
 
bluepeter said:
Is he taking into consideration the fact that many of the stated roles are also performed in one way or another by the husband? I guess I shouldn't assume that since some husbands don't but just curious.


visitation seems to be the way they mitigate this stuff.

divorces suck - this one cost close to 1mm just in litigation costs.

the entire US legal system is set-up for the benefit of lawyers and no one else.
 
While a stay-at-home mom's role is *very* important, that calculation is completely bogus.

Using the logic they used for the wife, you'd need to take the husband's wages and add-in:

1) Home repair expert / Carpender / Electricion (he fixes things around the house)
2) Security expert / Security guard (he's in charge of the home's safety)
3) Wall Street investment broker (he probably handles the family's bonds/stocks)
4) Automotive technician / mechanic (if he works on the cars at all)
5) Furnature mover
6) Electronics technician / repair / setup expert (if he hooks computers and sterios up)
7) PC security expert / maintenance person (if he manages the home computer)
8) Garbage man (if he takes the cans to the curb)
9) etc. etc.

I bet we could sit here and come-up with some bullshit $1M+ number for guys as well. Then we'd have two bogus numbers to run with.
 
BIKINIMOM said:
Nice that Reuters recognized the (dollar) value of being a stay-at-home parent. Unfortunately, my exhusband never did.

never ending sob story alert!!!!
 
needtogetas said:
ya well it still dont make her no money.and I do all the cooking around here.what am I worth.
Hmm... using the original study's logic we should factor-in "gormet chef" for your "worth" then. I bet a prestigious one in New York would pull 180k+ a year. Grats needto!
 
BIKINIMOM said:
There are MANY wonderful men that perform many of the duties listed and more, but generally - that is NOT the case.

Why do think that most women choose to return to the workforce when statistically it has been proven it is CHEAPER for the women to stay home?

Discuss

To feel useful, because you get a paycheck instead of sitting at home and just being thrown some pennies here and there. Because if you have a good job, you're better working (aint talking about dishwashing, flipping burgers or working as a clerk), because staying at home means putting your career on "hold" so while you're off, your coworkers are getting all the promotions. There're so many reasons.... of course, someone who used to work at minimum wage is probably better at home cause of all the govt. programs and money given out.

I come from a family where having a job was something to be proud of and tax payer's money was a shame.
 
hamstershaver said:
holy shit i just saw the 91 hrs a week they work at home bwaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaa, give me a fucking break

That's what an attorney will do during his first 2-3 years for $50k/year.
 
hamstershaver said:
holy shit i just saw the 91 hrs a week they work at home bwaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaa, give me a fucking break

hey, watchin Dr. Phil and eatin bon-bons on the couch while the plumber is showin buttcrack in the kitchen is tough work.
 
That isn't true at all. Most of those job descriptions only pay $5-15/hr.

housekeeper, day-care teacher, cook, computer operator, laundry machine operator, janitor, facilities manager, van driver, chief executive and psychologist.

The chief executive & psychology probably push the total numbers through the roof. I still don't believe it. That is like saying anyone who watches football and makes comments is a coach and should earn 50k for watching the game.
 
hamstershaver said:
holy shit i just saw the 91 hrs a week they work at home bwaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaa, give me a fucking break
ya they forgot to add in a tv cridict for soups and day time talk shows.they got to pay them for that to.
 
Does being a housewife include a stipend for EF plat membership?

Shit man I want to get paid to surf EF!
 
BIKINIMOM said:
LOL

Dont hate... apee-shee-yate!

you really are cooler than the other side of the pillow

i wish you were in my life baby
 
swole said:
you really are cooler than the other side of the pillow

i wish you were in my life baby

Alas you would grow tired of my constant need for intelligent conversation and mind-blowing sex so I will have to pass.






I couldnt handle another e-rejection! :worried:
 
BIKINIMOM said:
Alas you would grow tired of my constant need for intelligent conversation and mind-blowing sex so I will have to pass.

I couldnt handle another e-rejection! :worried:

Too bad you can't put those exceptional qualities on your resume.

Bitch please, I would be forced down to your mental level. I'll give you the sex part...most psycho's are amazing in the sack...but as far as mentality I have you covered.

Conversation? You'd probably talk about your miserable situation with ex hubby and how your kids are your life.

I'd be basically be waiting my turn to speak, if I even gave that much of a shit.
 
swole said:
Too bad you can't put those exceptional qualities on your resume.

Bitch please, I would be forced down to your mental level. I'll give you the sex part...most psycho's are amazing in the sack...but as far as mentality I have you covered.

Conversation? You'd probably talk about your miserable situation with ex hubby and how your kids are your life.

I'd be basically be waiting my turn to speak, if I even gave that much of a shit.

*wink*



m'kay




I think I heard your mommy calling from the background. What was that she said? I think she said your computer time is up!
 
Last edited:
women_13.jpg
 
mrplunkey said:
While a stay-at-home mom's role is *very* important, that calculation is completely bogus.

Using the logic they used for the wife, you'd need to take the husband's wages and add-in:

1) Home repair expert / Carpender / Electricion (he fixes things around the house)
2) Security expert / Security guard (he's in charge of the home's safety)
3) Wall Street investment broker (he probably handles the family's bonds/stocks)
4) Automotive technician / mechanic (if he works on the cars at all)
5) Furnature mover
6) Electronics technician / repair / setup expert (if he hooks computers and sterios up)
7) PC security expert / maintenance person (if he manages the home computer)
8) Garbage man (if he takes the cans to the curb)
9) etc. etc.

I bet we could sit here and come-up with some bullshit $1M+ number for guys as well. Then we'd have two bogus numbers to run with.
heh
 
dullboy said:
see, better than stripping...

http://reuters.myway.com/article/20...01_N02301962_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-LIFE-WORK-DC.html





NEW YORK (Reuters) - A full-time stay-at-home mother would earn $134,121 a year if paid for all her work, an amount similar to a top U.S. ad executive, a marketing director or a judge, according to a study released on Wednesday.

A mother who works outside the home would earn an extra $85,876 annually on top of her actual wages for the work she does at home, according to the study by Waltham, Massachusetts-based compensation experts Salary.com.

To reach the projected pay figures, the survey calculated the earning power of the 10 jobs respondents said most closely comprise a mother's role -- housekeeper, day-care teacher, cook, computer operator, laundry machine operator, janitor, facilities manager, van driver, chief executive and psychologist.

"You can't put a dollar value on it. It's worth a lot more," said Kristen Krauss, 35, as she hurriedly packed her four children, all aged under 8, into a minivan in New York while searching frantically for her keys. "Just look at me."

Employed mothers reported spending on average 44 hours a week at their outside job and 49.8 hours at their home job, while the stay-at-home mother worked 91.6 hours a week, it showed.

An estimated 5.6 million women in the United States are stay-at-home mothers with children under age 15, according to the most recent U.S. Census Bureau data.

NOT 'JUST A MOM'

"It's good to acknowledge the job that's being done, and that it's not that these women are settling for 'just a mom,"' said Bill Coleman, senior vice president of compensation at Salary.com. "They are actually doing an awful lot."

According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, some 26 million women with children under age 18 work in the nation's paid labor force.

Both employed and stay-at-home mothers said the lowest-paying job of housekeeper was their most common role, with employed mothers working 7.2 hours a week as housekeeper and stay-at-home mothers working 22.1 hours in that role.

"Every husband I've ever spoken to said, 'I'm keeping my job. You keep yours.' It's a tough one," said Gillian Forrest, 39, a stay-at-home mother of 22-month-old Alex in New York. "I don't know if you could put a dollar amount on it but it would be nice to get something."

To compile its study, Salary.com surveyed about 400 mothers online over the last two months.

Salary.com offers a Web site (http://www.mom.salary.com) where mothers can calculate what they could be paid, based on how many children they have, where they live and other factors. The site will produce a printable document that looks like a paycheck, Coleman said.

"It's obviously not negotiable," he said.

On average, the mother who works outside the house earns a base pay of $62,798 for a 40-hour at-home work week and $23,078 in overtime; a stay-at-home mother earned a base pay of $45,697 and $88,424 in overtime, it said.

In a Salary.com study conducted last year, stay-at-home mothers earned $131,471. The potential earnings of mothers who work outside the home was not calculated in the previous study.

THat's a crock of fucking shit. I do it all. I don't have a wife, or a maid. Ain't nothing to it.
 
dullboy said:
dullboy has a good friend who is in the process of handing her husband his head in a divorce and the judge is using this methodology to determine alimony.

I wonder if I can get alimony? What the fuck is alimony?
 
While I'm not agreeing with the final numbers, I think that the survey just makes a good point that stay at home moms do stay busy all day, past the nine to five of most jobs and not many people stop to calculate the worth to the family. If they get you to think about these things, I'm not going to completely discredit the survey because of the exaggerations.
 
HeatherRae said:
While I'm not agreeing with the final numbers, I think that the survey just makes a good point that stay at home moms do stay busy all day, past the nine to five of most jobs and not many people stop to calculate the worth to the family. If they get you to think about these things, I'm not going to completely discredit the survey because of the exaggerations.

For me this is far less about the exact number and about acknowledging how difficult and thankless a 24/7 job it is.

All that posted up saying how it was "no thing" are obviously not concerned with their job performance.

The arguement could go on and on... when your children are smaller obviously it is more demanding a job. But once they are older and more self-sufficient the menial tasks become easier as any child should be made to pull their weight (meaning less physical labor in the home) however the difficulty is increased in other ways - social delimas and REAL parenting issues that are enough to suck the life out of anyone.

I've never been the CEO of a multi-million dollar corporation so of course I can not speak to the difficulty of that job. But I am sure that were I in a position like that because I take ANY job I do seriously it would be no more demanding than what I did when I was a married stay-at-home mom to four small children who was also self-employed. The only difference would be the amount of pay.

Any CEO can be replaced in one fell swoop.

A mother (or father) home raising thier children can NEVER be replaced. Anyone who says otherwise just doesnt get it and I feel no need to even TRY to intelligently discuss.
 
"Employed mothers reported spending on average 44 hours a week at their outside job and 49.8 hours at their home job, while the stay-at-home mother worked 91.6 hours a week, it showed."

Why does it take stay at home moms nearly twice as long to do the housework? Self-reporing surveys are notoriously inaccurate; They claim 13 hours a day working?
 
BIKINIMOM said:
Any CEO can be replaced in one fell swoop.
That isn't accurate at all. That's right up there with saying *anyone* can bench 750 lbs if they try hard enough. No, they can't.
 
BIKINIMOM said:
Any CEO can be replaced in one fell swoop.

Really ? Then I guess some companies are wasting their time hiring head hunters and paying big bucks just to have that one special CEO that will put the business back on the track.... :rolleyes:
 
mrplunkey said:
That isn't accurate at all. That's right up there with saying *anyone* can bench 750 lbs if they try hard enough. No, they can't.

I disagree. I didnt say that the replacement would be adequate or that anyone could do the job. What I am saying is that there are many who could do the job well. And life would go on.

To compare the CEO of a corporation to a loving parent is silly I think and perhaps a poor analogy but I think you that are parents understand what I was trying to say.

But then again, that is only me. I guess I just place a higher value on raising children than running a company.
 
BIKINIMOM said:
For me this is far less about the exact number and about acknowledging how difficult and thankless a 24/7 job it is.
Any CEO can be replaced in one fell swoop.
By you? A CEO gets paid for his performance, based on years of experience in dealing with difficult people & situations, tactfully & discreetly.
Not in your resume.
 
HiDnGoD said:
By you? A CEO gets paid for his performance, based on years of experience in dealing with difficult people & situations, tactfully & discreetly.
Not in your resume.

I didnt say that I could even BEGIN to do that job. Hello, I would DIE in a management position. It isn't that I am not bright enough but I know myself well enough to know that I would not thrive in this sort of position. I am an out-of-the-box thinker and do better working independently. I am not good at reprimanding people/delegating/or dealing with situations that would cause conflict not to mention the fact that the adult world and I do NOT get along. I would SUCK in management - pure and simple.

That was not the point of my post at all.
 
BIKINIMOM said:
I didnt say that I could even BEGIN to do that job. Hello, I would DIE in a management position. It isn't that I am not bright enough but I know myself well enough to know that I would not thrive in this sort of position. I am an out-of-the-box thinker and do better working independently. I am not good at reprimanding people/delegating/or dealing with situations that would cause conflict not to mention the fact that the adult world and I do NOT get along. I would SUCK in management - pure and simple.

That was not the point of my post at all.
I could manage.





















a crew of 3.
I don't do politics, not very bright at it, & I don't tolerate it. I would be tempted to tell the people to just shut the fuck up, grow up, & do whatever the fuck I tell them to do, as long as they're at work.
 
BIKINIMOM said:
I disagree. I didnt say that the replacement would be adequate or that anyone could do the job. What I am saying is that there are many who could do the job well. And life would go on.

To compare the CEO of a corporation to a loving parent is silly I think and perhaps a poor analogy but I think you that are parents understand what I was trying to say.

But then again, that is only me. I guess I just place a higher value on raising children than running a company.
Let's face it... parenting isn't rocket science. Think about some of the half-crazy, low-intellect, low-income people who pull it off successfully.

I think people confuse important with difficult. Parenting is important, but it isn't difficult.
 
The self reporting survey with stay at home moms spending 90 hours a week working at home and working moms spending approximately the same amount of time in and out of the home seems to show that mothers tend to fill up their days working, cleaning, running errands, etc. The working moms have to sleep sometime. They only had the 40 extra hours for housework/childcare, so this is what they spend. Plus, it probably takes longer for the stay at home moms because the children are home instead of in school or daycare. Just guessing here.
 
BIKINIMOM said:
For me this is far less about the exact number and about acknowledging how difficult and thankless a 24/7 job it is.

All that posted up saying how it was "no thing" are obviously not concerned with their job performance.

The arguement could go on and on... when your children are smaller obviously it is more demanding a job. But once they are older and more self-sufficient the menial tasks become easier as any child should be made to pull their weight (meaning less physical labor in the home) however the difficulty is increased in other ways - social delimas and REAL parenting issues that are enough to suck the life out of anyone.

I've never been the CEO of a multi-million dollar corporation so of course I can not speak to the difficulty of that job. But I am sure that were I in a position like that because I take ANY job I do seriously it would be no more demanding than what I did when I was a married stay-at-home mom to four small children who was also self-employed. The only difference would be the amount of pay.

Any CEO can be replaced in one fell swoop.

A mother (or father) home raising thier children can NEVER be replaced. Anyone who says otherwise just doesnt get it and I feel no need to even TRY to intelligently discuss.

My wife quit her VP-track job with a Fortune 500 company to stay home with the kids. . .best move we ever made. . .her job now is WAY more important than mine. . .I just make sure everyone is housed, fed, clothed, insured, transported, etc. Any schmo with half a brain can do that. . .it takes a real special person to be a good parent. . .and she's the best!
 
HeatherRae said:
You're not a parent are you, MrPlunkey?
My sons are 15 and 7, and my daughter is 12. I routinely perform the "Mr. Mom" role (I'm doing it now as we speak, but the kids have been down for the night for hours).
 
mrplunkey said:
While a stay-at-home mom's role is *very* important, that calculation is completely bogus.

Using the logic they used for the wife, you'd need to take the husband's wages and add-in:

1) Home repair expert / Carpender / Electricion (he fixes things around the house)
2) Security expert / Security guard (he's in charge of the home's safety)
3) Wall Street investment broker (he probably handles the family's bonds/stocks)
4) Automotive technician / mechanic (if he works on the cars at all)
5) Furnature mover
6) Electronics technician / repair / setup expert (if he hooks computers and sterios up)
7) PC security expert / maintenance person (if he manages the home computer)
8) Garbage man (if he takes the cans to the curb)
9) etc. etc.

I bet we could sit here and come-up with some bullshit $1M+ number for guys as well. Then we'd have two bogus numbers to run with.


You're right on the money, bro. Excellent post!!!
 
yeah, I would agree to adding on for the value that a man adds to the home as well. The sad thing is that most couples work all day and then come home and work all night. Just valuing what you do for each other is so important.
 
HeatherRae said:
yeah, I would agree to adding on for the value that a man adds to the home as well. The sad thing is that most couples work all day and then come home and work all night. Just valuing what you do for each other is so important .
Very well said.
Unfortunately, many people disregard the other's value & only see their own.
 
HeatherRae said:
The sad thing is that most couples work all day and then come home and work all night.

Come on now, that's not fair. Freakin' your wife is a man's duty but it doesn't ALWAYS seem like work. :)
 
Until your jaw gets tired, then you whine, whine, whine...hehehe.
 
HeatherRae said:
Until your jaw gets tired, then you whine, whine, whine...hehehe.
I've built my jaw up to half an hour straight, see the srong jaw line in my avi,.....everybody's happy.:lmao:
 
BIKINIMOM said:
Alas you would grow tired of my constant need for intelligent conversation and mind-blowing sex so I will have to pass.

I couldnt handle another e-rejection! :worried:


I can always offer one of the two...
 
b fold the truth said:
I can always offer one of the two...

How the HECK are you, you handsome and HAPPILY MARRIED devil, you?

You two expecting yet?! LOL

My thoughts wander often to you and your lovely wife and have nothing but the happiest of wishes for you.

Such a lovely gentleman... gentle giant, that you are kind sir! :)
 
BIKINIMOM said:
How the HECK are you, you handsome and HAPPILY MARRIED devil, you?

You two expecting yet?! LOL

My thoughts wander often to you and your lovely wife and have nothing but the happiest of wishes for you.

Such a lovely gentleman... gentle giant, that you are kind sir! :)

Doing well...the little lady is working in Estonia for the week and it sucks!!!

Not expecting...yet. We sure do try though ;) I'll work on the intelligent conversations during the mind blowing sex...maybe that is the problem.

Seems as if the stones are rolling down your back as usual...
 
b fold the truth said:
Doing well...the little lady is working in Estonia for the week and it sucks!!!

Not expecting...yet. We sure do try though ;) I'll work on the intelligent conversations during the mind blowing sex...maybe that is the problem.

Seems as if the stones are rolling down your back as usual...

Good to hear that all is well and happy dearest!

Stones?.... mere pebbles BFold... nothing I can't live through.


Although lately I have to say there are moments when I dont know if I can take another day. Then I am reminded that if I ever took that option my 12 y/o would hate me forever. Unlike her near 14 y/o sister who has only hated me for about 2 years, should only last another 3 years or so. So I grit my teeth and live.
 
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