Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below 
Beachbum1546
New member
Oh ok, I didn't know that. Which one, progesterone or prolactin causes man boobs?Makavelli said:
Finally! A Progesterone Inhibitor!
- Thread starter Makavelli
- Start date
madcow502
New member
Makavelli said:
I had trouble running deca and tren together before. Its kind of hard to run the same stuff again in the same amounts just to test a theory and see if you get the gyno again. Took two years for it to go away last time. And for me the nolva did nothing 80mg ed for 4 weeks.
macrophage69alpha
New member
Makavelli said:
prolactin is actually one of the main "actors" in gynecomastia. its responsible for ductal tissue growth (usually initiated by oestrogen).
A
Anthony Roberts
Guest
You can use letrozole or aromasin to lower progesterone....in these cases, tumor levels of progesterone are examined, and the study is in women, but it's important to realize that most studies on Anti-E's will be in women...and that nonetheless, these ones show Letro and Aromasin to lower some progesterone levels...while nolvadex actually raises progesterone receptor levels...but first...
And here's some studies showing Letro and Aromasin reduce Progesterone levels, but that nolvadex will raise receptor levels (cause receptor proliferation or upgrade) of them, in the noted circumstances, probably due to various ways in which message the Anti-Estrogen is carring regarding mRNA, estrogen receptor genes, gene transcripts and variants, post-translational modifications of receptor protein products, and in the case of Nolvadex, possibly even interactions with other signaling networks in tumor cells or a possible result from a change in helix 12 (bear with me, because I'm speculating slightly and going off memory a bit):
[Comparison of letrozole and exemestane used in non-adjuvant therapy of endometrial carcinoma]
[Article in Russian]
Bershtein LM, Kovalevskii AIu, Maksimov SIa, Gershfel'd ED, Meshkova IE, Tsyrlina EV, Poroshina TE, Vasil'ev DA, Thijssen JH.
The clinical and endocrine-related effects of 2-week preoperative treatment of endometrial carcinoma patients with a non-steroid inhibitor of letrozole aromatase (femara 2.5 mg/day, n=10) and a steroid inactivator of the enzyme (exemestane 25 mg/day, n=13) were compared. In the first group, pain relief in the lower part of the belly and/or decreased uterine discharge were reported in two cases, as well as a 31% drop in the mean endometrial M-echo (ultrasound) signal. In the exemestane group, two patients revealed moderate uterine discharge decrease matched by a 15.6% decrease in M-signal intensity; no tumor was detected in another patient on completion of the course. Letrozole effect was relatively greater when such parameters as tumor-tissue aromatase level, estrogen concentration in vaginal smear and blood-cholesterol, FSH and LH levels were taken into consideration. However, exemestane therapy involved a relatively sharper drop in the levels of tumor receptors of progesterone and a significantly higher estrogen/progesterone receptor ratio. Hence, no matter how short treatment duration was, both steroid and non-steroid aromatase inhibitors induced effects predominantly associated with lowering estrogen production in endometrial carcinoma patients. This makes a case for further clinical trials of these drugs to deal with the pathology.
PMID: 15909811 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Effects of tamoxifen on steroid hormone receptors and hormone concentration and the results of DNA analysis by flow cytometry in endometrial carcinoma.
Nola M, Jukic S, Ilic-Forko J, Babic D, Uzarevic B, Petrovecki M, Suchanek E, Skrablin S, Dotlic S, Marusic M.
Department of Gynecology and Obstetrics, University Hospital and School of Medicine, Zagreb, Croatia.
OBJECTIVES: Tamoxifen is a nonsteroidal triphenylethylene derivate with a predominant antiestrogen activity, used in the endocrine treatment of breast and endometrial cancer. It is not known which endometrial carcinomas will respond favorably to tamoxifen and which ones will not. The aim of this study was to find out whether tamoxifen has an effect on hormone steroid receptors, hormone concentration, DNA content, and proliferative activity in endometrial cancer and to correlate the tamoxifen-induced changes with pathologic parameters such as clinical stage, tumor differentiation, depth of invasion, and histologic type. METHODS: Thirty postmenopausal women with endometrial carcinoma were treated with 30 mg of tamoxifen daily for 7-10 days after curettage. Steroid hormone receptors (estrogen and progesterone receptors), levels of follicle-stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, prolactin, estradiol, progesterone, testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, sex hormone binding globulin, and DNA ploidy and proliferative activity were determined before and after therapy. The patients were also divided into favorable and unfavorable prognosis groups according to classical histological parameters. The patients in the favorable group consisted of patients with stage I disease, well and moderately differentiated tumors, favorable histologic type, and a depth of myometrial invasion of less than (1/3). The patients with only one of the unfavorable parameters (clinical stage II or III, poorly differentiated tumors, unfavorable histologic types, and deeper invasion of myometrium) were included in the unfavorable prognosis group. RESULTS: After the treatment, there was a net increase in the progesterone receptors and sex hormone binding globulin and a significant decrease in the estrogen receptors. The increase in progesterone receptors and decrease in estrogen receptors occurred in the patient group with favorable prognosis regarding histologic type, degree of differentiation, and clinical stage, but also in the unfavorable prognosis group regarding the depth of myometrial invasion. Statistically significant decrease in the follicle-stimulating hormone concentration was observed in the groups with favorable prognosis regarding histologic type, depth of myometrial invasion, and grade of differentiation. Concentration of sex hormone binding globulin was significantly increased in groups with favorable prognosis if histologic type and grade of differentiation were taken into account. On the other hand, there was a significant decrease in the concentration of luteinizing hormone in the group with unfavorable histologic type and also a decrease in progesterone concentration in patients with unfavorable prognosis regarding the grade of differentiation. There was no statistical significance either in the concentrations of other hormones measured or in the DNA analysis by flow cytometry. CONCLUSIONS: Our results revealed that tamoxifen can increase progesterone receptors and decrease estrogen receptors in endometrial cancer. The effect was most pronounced in tumors with favorable clinicopathologic parameters. We conclude that tamoxifen therapy can induce progesterone receptor synthesis even in tumors with low initial progesterone receptor levels, making such tumors potentially responsive to additional hormonal therapy with progesterone. Copyright 1999 Academic Press.
PMID: 10053103 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Letrozole inhibits tumor proliferation more effectively than tamoxifen independent of HER1/2 expression status.
Ellis MJ, Coop A, Singh B, Tao Y, Llombart-Cussac A, Janicke F, Mauriac L, Quebe-Fehling E, Chaudri-Ross HA, Evans DB, Miller WR.
Duke University Comprehensive Cancer Center, Campus Box 8056, 660 South Euclid, Durham, NC 27710, USA. [email protected]
BACKGROUND: The biological basis for the superior efficacy of neoadjuvant letrozole versus tamoxifen for postmenopausal women with estrogen receptor (ER)-positive locally advanced breast cancer was investigated by analyzing tumor proliferation and expression of estrogen-regulated genes before and after the initiation of therapy. METHODS: Tumor samples were obtained at baseline and at the end of treatment from 185 patients participating in a double blind randomized Phase III study of neoadjuvant endocrine therapy. These paired specimens were simultaneously analyzed for Ki67, ER, progesterone receptor (PgR), trefoil factor 1 (PS2), HER1 (epidermal growth factor receptor), and HER2 (ErbB2 or neu) by semiquantitative immunohistochemistry. RESULTS: The treatment-induced reduction in geometric mean Ki67 was significantly greater with letrozole (87%) than tamoxifen (75%; analysis of covariance P = 0.0009). Differences in the average Ki67 reduction were particularly marked for ER-positive tumors that overexpressed HER1 and/or HER2 (88 versus 45%, respectively; P = 0.0018). Twenty-three of 92 tumors (25%) on tamoxifen and 14 of 93 on letrozole (15%) showed a paradoxical increase in Ki67 with treatment, and the majority of these cases was HER1/2 negative. Letrozole, but not tamoxifen, significantly reduced expression of the estrogen-regulated proteins PgR and trefoil factor 1, regardless of HER1/2 status (P < 0.0001). ER down-regulation occurred with both agents, although levels decreased more with tamoxifen (P < 0.0001). CONCLUSION: Letrozole inhibited tumor proliferation to a greater extent than tamoxifen. The molecular basis for this advantage appears complex but includes possible tamoxifen agonist effects on the cell cycle in both HER1/2+ and HER1/2- tumors. A pattern of continued proliferation despite appropriate down-regulation of PgR expression with estrogen deprivation or tamoxifen was also documented. This observation suggests the estrogenic regulation of proliferation and PgR expression may be dissociated in endocrine therapy resistant cells.
(Sorry...I';ll postr more later...I'm being kicked offline)
And here's some studies showing Letro and Aromasin reduce Progesterone levels, but that nolvadex will raise receptor levels (cause receptor proliferation or upgrade) of them, in the noted circumstances, probably due to various ways in which message the Anti-Estrogen is carring regarding mRNA, estrogen receptor genes, gene transcripts and variants, post-translational modifications of receptor protein products, and in the case of Nolvadex, possibly even interactions with other signaling networks in tumor cells or a possible result from a change in helix 12 (bear with me, because I'm speculating slightly and going off memory a bit):
[Comparison of letrozole and exemestane used in non-adjuvant therapy of endometrial carcinoma]
[Article in Russian]
Bershtein LM, Kovalevskii AIu, Maksimov SIa, Gershfel'd ED, Meshkova IE, Tsyrlina EV, Poroshina TE, Vasil'ev DA, Thijssen JH.
The clinical and endocrine-related effects of 2-week preoperative treatment of endometrial carcinoma patients with a non-steroid inhibitor of letrozole aromatase (femara 2.5 mg/day, n=10) and a steroid inactivator of the enzyme (exemestane 25 mg/day, n=13) were compared. In the first group, pain relief in the lower part of the belly and/or decreased uterine discharge were reported in two cases, as well as a 31% drop in the mean endometrial M-echo (ultrasound) signal. In the exemestane group, two patients revealed moderate uterine discharge decrease matched by a 15.6% decrease in M-signal intensity; no tumor was detected in another patient on completion of the course. Letrozole effect was relatively greater when such parameters as tumor-tissue aromatase level, estrogen concentration in vaginal smear and blood-cholesterol, FSH and LH levels were taken into consideration. However, exemestane therapy involved a relatively sharper drop in the levels of tumor receptors of progesterone and a significantly higher estrogen/progesterone receptor ratio. Hence, no matter how short treatment duration was, both steroid and non-steroid aromatase inhibitors induced effects predominantly associated with lowering estrogen production in endometrial carcinoma patients. This makes a case for further clinical trials of these drugs to deal with the pathology.
PMID: 15909811 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Effects of tamoxifen on steroid hormone receptors and hormone concentration and the results of DNA analysis by flow cytometry in endometrial carcinoma.
Nola M, Jukic S, Ilic-Forko J, Babic D, Uzarevic B, Petrovecki M, Suchanek E, Skrablin S, Dotlic S, Marusic M.
Department of Gynecology and Obstetrics, University Hospital and School of Medicine, Zagreb, Croatia.
OBJECTIVES: Tamoxifen is a nonsteroidal triphenylethylene derivate with a predominant antiestrogen activity, used in the endocrine treatment of breast and endometrial cancer. It is not known which endometrial carcinomas will respond favorably to tamoxifen and which ones will not. The aim of this study was to find out whether tamoxifen has an effect on hormone steroid receptors, hormone concentration, DNA content, and proliferative activity in endometrial cancer and to correlate the tamoxifen-induced changes with pathologic parameters such as clinical stage, tumor differentiation, depth of invasion, and histologic type. METHODS: Thirty postmenopausal women with endometrial carcinoma were treated with 30 mg of tamoxifen daily for 7-10 days after curettage. Steroid hormone receptors (estrogen and progesterone receptors), levels of follicle-stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, prolactin, estradiol, progesterone, testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, sex hormone binding globulin, and DNA ploidy and proliferative activity were determined before and after therapy. The patients were also divided into favorable and unfavorable prognosis groups according to classical histological parameters. The patients in the favorable group consisted of patients with stage I disease, well and moderately differentiated tumors, favorable histologic type, and a depth of myometrial invasion of less than (1/3). The patients with only one of the unfavorable parameters (clinical stage II or III, poorly differentiated tumors, unfavorable histologic types, and deeper invasion of myometrium) were included in the unfavorable prognosis group. RESULTS: After the treatment, there was a net increase in the progesterone receptors and sex hormone binding globulin and a significant decrease in the estrogen receptors. The increase in progesterone receptors and decrease in estrogen receptors occurred in the patient group with favorable prognosis regarding histologic type, degree of differentiation, and clinical stage, but also in the unfavorable prognosis group regarding the depth of myometrial invasion. Statistically significant decrease in the follicle-stimulating hormone concentration was observed in the groups with favorable prognosis regarding histologic type, depth of myometrial invasion, and grade of differentiation. Concentration of sex hormone binding globulin was significantly increased in groups with favorable prognosis if histologic type and grade of differentiation were taken into account. On the other hand, there was a significant decrease in the concentration of luteinizing hormone in the group with unfavorable histologic type and also a decrease in progesterone concentration in patients with unfavorable prognosis regarding the grade of differentiation. There was no statistical significance either in the concentrations of other hormones measured or in the DNA analysis by flow cytometry. CONCLUSIONS: Our results revealed that tamoxifen can increase progesterone receptors and decrease estrogen receptors in endometrial cancer. The effect was most pronounced in tumors with favorable clinicopathologic parameters. We conclude that tamoxifen therapy can induce progesterone receptor synthesis even in tumors with low initial progesterone receptor levels, making such tumors potentially responsive to additional hormonal therapy with progesterone. Copyright 1999 Academic Press.
PMID: 10053103 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Letrozole inhibits tumor proliferation more effectively than tamoxifen independent of HER1/2 expression status.
Ellis MJ, Coop A, Singh B, Tao Y, Llombart-Cussac A, Janicke F, Mauriac L, Quebe-Fehling E, Chaudri-Ross HA, Evans DB, Miller WR.
Duke University Comprehensive Cancer Center, Campus Box 8056, 660 South Euclid, Durham, NC 27710, USA. [email protected]
BACKGROUND: The biological basis for the superior efficacy of neoadjuvant letrozole versus tamoxifen for postmenopausal women with estrogen receptor (ER)-positive locally advanced breast cancer was investigated by analyzing tumor proliferation and expression of estrogen-regulated genes before and after the initiation of therapy. METHODS: Tumor samples were obtained at baseline and at the end of treatment from 185 patients participating in a double blind randomized Phase III study of neoadjuvant endocrine therapy. These paired specimens were simultaneously analyzed for Ki67, ER, progesterone receptor (PgR), trefoil factor 1 (PS2), HER1 (epidermal growth factor receptor), and HER2 (ErbB2 or neu) by semiquantitative immunohistochemistry. RESULTS: The treatment-induced reduction in geometric mean Ki67 was significantly greater with letrozole (87%) than tamoxifen (75%; analysis of covariance P = 0.0009). Differences in the average Ki67 reduction were particularly marked for ER-positive tumors that overexpressed HER1 and/or HER2 (88 versus 45%, respectively; P = 0.0018). Twenty-three of 92 tumors (25%) on tamoxifen and 14 of 93 on letrozole (15%) showed a paradoxical increase in Ki67 with treatment, and the majority of these cases was HER1/2 negative. Letrozole, but not tamoxifen, significantly reduced expression of the estrogen-regulated proteins PgR and trefoil factor 1, regardless of HER1/2 status (P < 0.0001). ER down-regulation occurred with both agents, although levels decreased more with tamoxifen (P < 0.0001). CONCLUSION: Letrozole inhibited tumor proliferation to a greater extent than tamoxifen. The molecular basis for this advantage appears complex but includes possible tamoxifen agonist effects on the cell cycle in both HER1/2+ and HER1/2- tumors. A pattern of continued proliferation despite appropriate down-regulation of PgR expression with estrogen deprivation or tamoxifen was also documented. This observation suggests the estrogenic regulation of proliferation and PgR expression may be dissociated in endocrine therapy resistant cells.
(Sorry...I';ll postr more later...I'm being kicked offline)
Last edited:
njmuscleguy
New member
ok, so this is going to be an endless debate on which of the anti-e's are best... I've only ever done deca & test cycles until now and have used liquidex to control water retention... it seems to work "ok", not stellar... then again, I have nothing to compare it to yet... apparently aromasin is a stronger anti-e / progesterone inhibitor.... I believe it also doesn't wreck cholesterol levels like arimidex/liquidex can... so far gyno doesn't appear to be a concern for me....so my question is, does aromasin control water bloat better than the other anti-e's?
