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fina/deca and progesterone gyno

I trust the source too brama and as you and I both know he does not like to hand out info, he like to drop hint and make you work for it :). Gyno can be and often is caused by much more than people think. simply upsetting the test:estrogen ratio can cause gyno in some, liver problems can cause gyno, prolactin, igf-1 etc etc etc etc. The list goes on and on. The thing I am having trouble isolating is what combination of items are needed to cause it and at what levels?
 
Hey ZYG

Zyglamail said:
I added more to that thread, abstracts included showing the possible increase in IGF-1 by tren as well as one pointing out high IGF-1 level can cause gyno.

He stated he did not think it did, but there are people on this board who have done fina or fina/winny ONLY and HAVE gotten gyno. Im not trying to specifically point anything out as wrong, just shed light for all of us on what can and can not cause gyno by doing a bit of reading :)



I dont know the story about WHO or What happened leading to these cases of Fina /Gyno, but What about the fact of HptA being shut down and having no clomid ? Now I am thinking that could have disasterous implications ....especially if any estrodial is present. Not saying thats exactly what happened, but what if?
 
da big thinker said:


yes i do have the balls panerai...now sit back and relax...reserach is presently being done and in addition,just like Zyg...i'm trying to get answers...if your "opinions" work for you then great...they don't work for me...i feel everything is set in stone w/ you...causes fina dick,causes gyno,etc...blahblahblah...i'm just not happy w/ you parrotting what a few other members just constantly repeat.just sit back and enjoy the ride...much to your dismay...you MIGHT actually learn something NEW...

Bro, I didn't mean to offend you. Take it easy...:)

BTW, almost everything I have an opinion on, I can back up with studies, or/and lots of users testimonials.
As for Fina dick, I personally got it after 2 weeks of Fina only cycle, and I do have pretty stong libido.
 
panerai said:


Bro, I didn't mean to offend you. Take it easy...:)

fine...it's just that you have a funny way of showing it...bro,in my initial post,i stated "let's elaborate"...all i really wanted to do was to get some answers on this topic...i will get the research and perhaps you might be right...i'm just not happy w/ current repetitions on this topic...at least for now...i respect your views and God knows you know your stuff...help us get the answers...i just don't think it's as easy as saying take some winny and you'll be fine...perhaps!!!i'm still reading and learning and will get some answers...sorry for jumping on you...
 
brama said:
IGF-1 is a know requirement for growth of breast tissue

Zyg, I strongly suspect that in those studies were, supposedly IGF-1 caused gyno, increased level of IGF-1 was just a big "help", but wasn't really a thing that caused it. Increased or, at least not decreased level of IGF-1 is absolutelly nessecery for gyno to devellope, but can it cause gyno itself?
I can't not even imaging the mechanism of such an action.
 
I myself am unsure of the whole big picture on what and just how much of what will trigger gyno but it does appear to be far more complex than most realize. Here is some reading for you all:

Side effects resulting from the use of growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I as combined therapy to frail elderly patients.

Sullivan DH, Carter WJ, Warr WR, Williams LH.

Geriatric Research, Education and Clinical Center, John L. McClellan Memorial Veterans Hospital, Little Rock, Arkansas, USA.

BACKGROUND: The objective of this study was to examine the relationship between serum IGF-I concentration and the incidence of side effects of therapy with recombinant human growth hormone (rhGH) and recombinant human insulin-like growth factor-I (rhIGF-I). METHODS: Thirteen high-risk, undernourished elderly males were started on a 15-day course of rhGH and rhIGF-I by subcutaneous injection. The dose of rhGH was held constant at .0125 mg/kg/day, whereas the dose of rhIGF-I was increased in a stepwise fashion from 10 micrograms/kg to the targeted dose of 40 micrograms/kg twice a day. RESULTS: Nine subjects completed the protocol and reached the full target dose of both hormones. Fluid retention, gynecomastia, and orthostatic hypotension were the most common complications. The hormone injections increased the serum concentration of IGF-I (from 72.7 +/- 40.9 to 483.7 +/- 251.4 eta g/ml, p = .001) and IGFBP-3 (from 1.82 +/- 0.66 to 2.72 +/- 1.18 mg/L, p = .012), and decreased serum albumin (from 34.3 +/- 5.5 to 31.4 +/- 4.6 g/L, p = .009). The magnitude of the initial increase in the serum IGF-I concentration was a powerful risk factor for severe orthostatic hypotension, diffuse myalgias, and drug-induced hepatitis. There was no association between the serum IGF-I concentration and fluid retention or gynecomastia. CONCLUSIONS: Treatment of the undernourished frail elderly with the anabolic agents rhGH and rhIGF-I at the specified dosages may produce undesirable side effects including fluid retention, gynecomastia, and orthostatic hypotension. Although these agents hold therapeutic promise, they must be used with caution in this high-risk population.

more...........

Growth hormone treatment induces mammary gland hyperplasia in aging primates.

Ng ST, Zhou J, Adesanya OO, Wang J, LeRoith D, Bondy CA.

Developmental Endocrinology Branch, National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, Bethesda, Maryland 20892-1770, USA.

The decline of growth hormone (GH) and insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) production during aging has been likened to the decrease in gonadal steroids in menopause. The repletion of GH/IGF-I levels in aging individuals is suggested to restore the lean tissue anabolism characteristic of youth. In addition to anabolic effects on musculo-skeletal tissues, GH also stimulates mammary glandular growth in some species, although its effects on primate mammary growth remain unclear. Some clinical observations implicate GH in human mammary growth, for example, gynecomastia occurs in some children treated with GH (ref. 6), and tall stature and acromegaly are associated with an increased incidence of breast cancer. To investigate the effects of GH/IGF-I augmentation on mammary tissue in a model relevant to aging humans, we treated aged female rhesus monkeys with GH, IGF-I, GH + IGF-I or saline diluent for 7 weeks. IGF-I treatment was associated with a twofold increase, GH with a three- to fourfold increase, and GH + IGF-I with a four'-to fivefold increase in mammary glandular size and epithelial proliferation index. These mitogenic effects were directly correlated with circulating GH and IGF-I levels, suggesting that either GH or its downstream effector IGF-I stimulates primate mammary epithelial proliferation.

and yet more..........

Carpal tunnel syndrome and gynaecomastia during growth hormone treatment of elderly men with low circulating IGF-I concentrations.

Cohn L, Feller AG, Draper MW, Rudman IW, Rudman D.

Department of Medicine, Medical College of Wisconsin, Milwaukee.

OBJECTIVE--We studied the relationship between plasma level of insulin-like growth hormone I (IGF-I), changes in lean body mass and in adipose mass, and adverse side-effects during human growth hormone (hGH) treatment of elderly men who had low IGF-I levels. DESIGN--The first six months was a period of baseline observation. The subjects were then randomized into two groups so that during months 7-18, men in group I received hGH, and men in group II served as untreated controls. SUBJECTS--Eighty-three overtly healthy elderly men, who were selected because their plasma IGF-I level was less than 0.35 units/ml. The men were randomly assigned in a ratio of three to one into group I (n = 62) or into group II (n = 21). MEASUREMENTS--Plasma IGF-I level was measured monthly. Lean body mass and adipose mass were measured every six months. RESULTS--Fifteen men left the study during the baseline period because of personal reasons or intercurrent medical events. In those who received drug (group I), there were a number of adverse reactions which could have been related to the hGH therapy: carpal tunnel syndrome 10, gynaecomastia 4, and hyperglycaemia 3. In total there were 27 dropouts from group I and two dropouts from group II after the six-month point, for a variety of medical and non-medical reasons, the majority probably not related to hGH therapy. During the hGH treatment of group I, plasma IGF-I increased from the range 0.10-0.35 units/ml into the range 0.5-2.2 units/ml. Among the 18 men who completed 12 months of hGH treatment without experiencing one of the three above-noted presumed hGH side-effects, mean and peak plasma IGF-I during treatment were significantly lower than among the 13 men who experienced carpal tunnel syndrome or gynaecomastia (one subject had both) while on hGH. With one exception, neither carpal tunnel syndrome nor gynaecomastia occurred in any individual with a mean IGF-I level less than 1.0 units/ml during hGH treatment. Twelve months of hGH treatment (group I) caused an increase in lean body mass to 106% of the initial baseline (month one of the protocol), and a reduction in adipose mass to 84% of the baseline. Meanwhile, the lean body mass of the untreated men in group II declined to 97% of the initial baseline. The body composition responses after 12 months of treatment in group I were larger in the men whose mean intra-treatment IGF-I level was 0.5-1.0 units/ml, than in the men whose mean intra-treatment IGF-I level was 1.0-1.5 units/ml. CONCLUSIONS--These observations show that when elderly men with low circulating IGF-I concentrations are treated continuously with hGH, elevation of plasma IGF-I above 1.0 units/ml is associated with a substantial frequency of carpal tunnel syndrome or gynaecomastia. It may be that the effects of the hormone in expanding lean body mass and reducing adipose mass can be achieved, and the side-effects avoided, by maintaining the mean IGF-I level in the range 0.5-1.0 units/ml.

The end....for now :)
 
Da Big Thinker, personally, I don't think, that Winny is universal solution. I read good amount of posts from guys who used Winny and still got gyno, either from Fina or Deca.
Most likely, it does work for most of the users, but, perheps, not for everyone.
As for Fina gyno, because of short ester, simply stopping in time should prevent any problems, and our little discussion is really more theorethical then for practical applications.
 
Zyg, did you notice that all three studies are done on elderly ?
Very low testosteron, higher estrogen, ha?
Binding to ER, plus increased level of IGF-1 and possibly prolactin, is perfect environment for triggering gyno.
 
Pan, yepper which helps to support the original post in this thread stating that you needed multiple elements and the proper removal of one aspect can prevent gyno. Also note that IGF-1 has shown to stimulate prolactin release.
 
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