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Fina and Cancer. IS there a connection?

gregory

New member
Does anyone know if trenbolone in any ester is carcenogenic? Can it induce cancer during use of years after it's use. I thought i remeber seeing a rat study that showed it's ability to do just that, does anyone have any 411 on this, or perhaps my question is based on an outdated notion? :confused:
 
Fina can be a problem if you have a predisposition toward cancer. It's not that Fina causes cancer, but it can stimulate a problem one already has. I believe It can quicken the process.
 
=Viking= said:
Fina can be a problem if you have a predisposition toward cancer. It's not that Fina causes cancer, but it can stimulate a problem one already has. I believe It can quicken the process.


Well if that's the case is it only exclusive to tren? Or to things like test as well? Cancer predisposition is a tricky thing, you may not know if you have it so i fear we might be setting ourselves up for some unpleasantries in the future.
 
GREGORY said:
Well if that's the case is it only exclusive to tren? Or to things like test as well? Cancer predisposition is a tricky thing, you may not know if you have it so i fear we might be setting ourselves up for some unpleasantries in the future.[/QUOT

That is a serious matter to consider when using enhancers.

I think that it is important to consider ones genes. My family has not had problems with Cancer. Dr.'s want to know want to know about your family history when diagnosing because there are problems handed down from one generation to the next.
 
here's the deal.

Cancer is an opportunity diesease that attacts the body when its defenses are low. The immune system, nk cells ect. are what snuffs out cell mutations. Tren lowers the immune system thus potentially allowing cancer to manifest in a weakened system.
 
I had always read it this way... Anadrol = the only steroid known to cause cancer.
Fina = If you are predisposed to cancer it will speed up the process.
*Not sure of the particular studies... just remember reading it.
**Bunch of guys at my old gym got cancerous tumors from Fina that wasn't clean. It was nasty. They were all over their backs and necks... had to get surgery!
 
slat1 said:
I had always read it this way... Anadrol = the only steroid known to cause cancer.
Fina = If you are predisposed to cancer it will speed up the process.
*Not sure of the particular studies... just remember reading it.
**Bunch of guys at my old gym got cancerous tumors from Fina that wasn't clean. It was nasty. They were all over their backs and necks... had to get surgery!

It looks like the "incredible effectiveness" of trenbolone comes with a price.... I've also read that it's hard on the kidneys, but I'm not sure if it's true.
 
does it have anything to do with elevating igf?
 
Sure a compromised immune system can open you up to some nasty things, but not necessarily cancer. I don't think that the answer is as simple as that in this case at least. There may be other factors at play here and i am wondering if anyone has done any concrete research behind this?
 
GREGORY said:
Sure a compromised immune system can open you up to some nasty things, but not necessarily cancer. I don't think that the answer is as simple as that in this case at least. There may be other factors at play here and i am wondering if anyone has done any concrete research behind this?

you have very little understanding of the immune system my friend.
 
Keep in mind, some cancers are thought to be genetic, while others are thought to be more "lifestyle" based. For instance, stomach cancer is generally NOT thought to be genetic, rather caused by excessive drinking etc etc.
 
The Greatest said:
you have very little understanding of the immune system my friend.


OK, please enlighten me, as i asked for explanations not condesending one word answers that pose more questions.
 
Greatest and Gregory stop stressing, your both a little off the mark, but Greatest you are wrong and only make a fool of yourself getting aggressive when you are in fact wrong. Gregory is right to question you, and did so in a calm manner.

(Firstly, I'm a geneticist)

Cancer has nothing to do with the immune system (apart from cervical cancer in women which is caused by a virus).

1000's of mutations happen all the time in genes when your cells are dividing, but fortunatly we have certain genes present to stop this, namely the 'p53' gene, and there are also some others such as H-ras (stops cock ups in the eyes dividing), BRCA1 and BRCA2 (stops cock ups in the breasts and ovaries).

However, if your unfortunate to have a cell divide where things go wrong on other genes AND things go wrong on you regulating genes (p53 etc.), then your fucked... and cancer can occur as the regulating gene isn't working properly to stop the cell from dividing.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IMMUNITY!!! (Think about it.... people with AIDS die because of a cold effecting them as they have no immune system, if your thoughts were correct, everyone who has AIDS would probably die from cancer)

So, I think your way of thought, is spurious, and does not give a reason why tren might make you susceptible to cancer.

Just had to throw my knowledge on this!
 
Paul Allen said:
Greatest and Gregory stop stressing, your both a little off the mark, but Greatest you are wrong and only make a fool of yourself getting aggressive when you are in fact wrong. Gregory is right to question you, and did so in a calm manner.

(Firstly, I'm a geneticist)

Cancer has nothing to do with the immune system (apart from cervical cancer in women which is caused by a virus).

1000's of mutations happen all the time in genes when your cells are dividing, but fortunatly we have certain genes present to stop this, namely the 'p53' gene, and there are also some others such as H-ras (stops cock ups in the eyes dividing), BRCA1 and BRCA2 (stops cock ups in the breasts and ovaries).

However, if your unfortunate to have a cell divide where things go wrong on other genes AND things go wrong on you regulating genes (p53 etc.), then your fucked... and cancer can occur as the regulating gene isn't working properly to stop the cell from dividing.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IMMUNITY!!! (Think about it.... people with AIDS die because of a cold effecting them as they have no immune system, if your thoughts were correct, everyone who has AIDS would probably die from cancer)

So, I think your way of thought, is spurious, and does not give a reason why tren might make you susceptible to cancer.

Just had to throw my knowledge on this!



Thank you for the answer. I was thinking about this yesterday and the AIDS example came to my head in regards to the patients dieying from having no immune system. That being sauid they clearly don't die from cancer.

But my question is, can any anabolics cause any changes in the Genes you described, as in turn them on or off or can they cause cell mutations of the type that these genes will not be able to controll, thus leading to cancer? Can any anabolic do any of that, even in theory?

Pardon me for sounding a little green on this topic, i'm not a scientist or even a researcher so bare with me.

Thanks.
 
Your right about genes being turned on and off and enviromental factors play a big role in this.

This topic could get very involved and complex, but to put it simply, lots of genes get told to turn off when on AAS e.g the genes that initiate test production, the genes that initiate spermatogenesis. Some also get turned on, such as those that cause extra receptors to be made, and tell satellite cells to turn into muscle cells.

It is highly doubtful that there is a direct link between anabolics and cancer but indirectly...., well, lets not kid ourselves, I'm sure we're eleveating the risk, but possibly only by a fraction i.e. no where near what smoking does, or years of working in an asbestos factory.

Asbestos and cigarrette smoke are known carcinogens, and even then not everyone gets cancer from them, so given that AAS have never really been linked the risk is minimal and the other healthy life style habits such as working out, diet, supplementary anti-oxidents etc., should go some way to counter acting this (in fact the amount of anti-oxidents I take, I actually think I'm at quite a low risk). Hope this helps all concerned!! :rainbow:
 
Most of the medical community view cancer as a local, specific disease. However, because of a paradigm shift (brought on by impinging views from the holistic medical community), many now feel that cancer is not the disease, but rather it is only a symptom of a disease; an outrageous symptom but more or less a result of a breakdown in our defense.

It has only been in the last two to three decades that research into the workings of the immune system has really taken off. Before this, the immune system was not completely ignored by the established medical community; it was used as an indicator of one’s health status. Remember your "white count" tests? A high white blood cell count told the physician that your body was fighting an infection. Beyond that, it pretty much was not only ignored, but abused, especially considering the innumerable medical procedures and drug therapies that suppress the immune system—some procedures actually decimating it.

One of the reasons it has taken science so long to get a grip on the immune system is that its parts and interconnectedness are not readily perceivable. We have the digestive system, the circulatory system, the nervous system, and the respiratory system to name a few systems. These systems are easily described because they are physically connected. The immune system, on the other hand, consists of, ostensibly, unrelated parts and pieces, and much of what connects it together is molecular.

The immune system is action and reaction. It has an intelligence of its own, though primitive, working like a mouse in a Skinner Box: the product of stimulus and response. For example, if a microscopic piece of an organ gets into the blood stream either through disease or by injury, the immune system will respond to it as if it were a foreign body, and having done so, the immune system is now trained to attack the original organ. The suppressor T-cells have to stop this attack or we have the beginning of an autoimmune response (lupus is an autoimmune disease in which the immune system actually attacks the person’s own body).

When referring to the immune system’s physical parts, we also call it the lymphatic system, though the entire immune system, on a molecular level, goes much farther, for even the tiniest cell in our bodies can create chemicals to aid in the defense of the entire system. The lymphatic system consists of two parts, the primary and secondary organs

We have to stop here to take a look at NK Cell Activity, for it is the primary criteria determining the overall strength and health of your immune system. NK cells are not, like white cell, measured by their number, for their number stays constant, approximately 15% of your white blood cells. NK cells provide the first line of defense in dealing with any invasion to your body. Each NK cell contains several small granules that act like explosive charges: when a cancer cell is recognized, the NK cell attaches itself to the cancer cell and injects these granules into the cancer cell and they explode, destroying the cancer cell within five minutes. The NK cell then moves on to another invader. Healthy NK cells have been know to attack two or more invaders or infected cells at once.

It is now accepted that that individuals with low NK cell activity are more susceptible to Chronic Fatigue, autoimmune diseases, cancerous tumors and viral infections.
 
Paul Allen said:
Greatest and Gregory stop stressing, your both a little off the mark, but Greatest you are wrong and only make a fool of yourself getting aggressive when you are in fact wrong. Gregory is right to question you, and did so in a calm manner.

(Firstly, I'm a geneticist)

Cancer has nothing to do with the immune system (apart from cervical cancer in women which is caused by a virus).

1000's of mutations happen all the time in genes when your cells are dividing, but fortunatly we have certain genes present to stop this, namely the 'p53' gene, and there are also some others such as H-ras (stops cock ups in the eyes dividing), BRCA1 and BRCA2 (stops cock ups in the breasts and ovaries).

However, if your unfortunate to have a cell divide where things go wrong on other genes AND things go wrong on you regulating genes (p53 etc.), then your fucked... and cancer can occur as the regulating gene isn't working properly to stop the cell from dividing.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IMMUNITY!!! (Think about it.... people with AIDS die because of a cold effecting them as they have no immune system, if your thoughts were correct, everyone who has AIDS would probably die from cancer)

So, I think your way of thought, is spurious, and does not give a reason why tren might make you susceptible to cancer.

Just had to throw my knowledge on this!


yup, we all have many cancer cells in us at all times....
 
The Greatest said:
Most of the medical community view cancer as a local, specific disease. However, because of a paradigm shift (brought on by impinging views from the holistic medical community), many now feel that cancer is not the disease, but rather it is only a symptom of a disease; an outrageous symptom but more or less a result of a breakdown in our defense.

It has only been in the last two to three decades that research into the workings of the immune system has really taken off. Before this, the immune system was not completely ignored by the established medical community; it was used as an indicator of one’s health status. Remember your "white count" tests? A high white blood cell count told the physician that your body was fighting an infection. Beyond that, it pretty much was not only ignored, but abused, especially considering the innumerable medical procedures and drug therapies that suppress the immune system—some procedures actually decimating it.

One of the reasons it has taken science so long to get a grip on the immune system is that its parts and interconnectedness are not readily perceivable. We have the digestive system, the circulatory system, the nervous system, and the respiratory system to name a few systems. These systems are easily described because they are physically connected. The immune system, on the other hand, consists of, ostensibly, unrelated parts and pieces, and much of what connects it together is molecular.

The immune system is action and reaction. It has an intelligence of its own, though primitive, working like a mouse in a Skinner Box: the product of stimulus and response. For example, if a microscopic piece of an organ gets into the blood stream either through disease or by injury, the immune system will respond to it as if it were a foreign body, and having done so, the immune system is now trained to attack the original organ. The suppressor T-cells have to stop this attack or we have the beginning of an autoimmune response (lupus is an autoimmune disease in which the immune system actually attacks the person’s own body).

When referring to the immune system’s physical parts, we also call it the lymphatic system, though the entire immune system, on a molecular level, goes much farther, for even the tiniest cell in our bodies can create chemicals to aid in the defense of the entire system. The lymphatic system consists of two parts, the primary and secondary organs

We have to stop here to take a look at NK Cell Activity, for it is the primary criteria determining the overall strength and health of your immune system. NK cells are not, like white cell, measured by their number, for their number stays constant, approximately 15% of your white blood cells. NK cells provide the first line of defense in dealing with any invasion to your body. Each NK cell contains several small granules that act like explosive charges: when a cancer cell is recognized, the NK cell attaches itself to the cancer cell and injects these granules into the cancer cell and they explode, destroying the cancer cell within five minutes. The NK cell then moves on to another invader. Healthy NK cells have been know to attack two or more invaders or infected cells at once.

It is now accepted that that individuals with low NK cell activity are more susceptible to Chronic Fatigue, autoimmune diseases, cancerous tumors and viral infections.


That sheds more light on the matter for me, thanks. So it indeed seems that the immune system does play a role. So the bottom line is that it is dependednt on the individual if i understand it correctly...

Thanks for the explanation.
 
Paul Allen said:
everyone who has AIDS would probably die from cancer)

You mean like the Kaposi's sarcoma that is so common in AIDS patients?

Cancer is multifactorial. Certainly lifestyle is a huge factor - that is why , for example, native Japanese women have a much lower incidence of breast cancer than women in the USA. but if native Japanese women move to the USA then their rate of breast cancer equals that of USA women. Smoking, diet, obesity, exposure to certain drugs is a huge factor.

Resistance is another important factor - cellular and serological immunity factor here. We all produce cancer cells regularly - but our immune system gobbles them up. Many things stimulate the immune system. Cervix cancer goes through many stages before the cervix tissue is actually graded as CIS - cancer in situ. Before it is CIS it is graded as various grades of abnormal. When it is very abnormal, but before it is cancer, doctors will often take a biopsy to determine its actual stage of development - in laymans terms : how abnormal it is. It is well known that venereal warts are the major cause of cervix cancer. Women may have venereal warts throughout the vagina, but get a local tissue biopsy of abnormal tissue - and this local surgery itself will stimulate an inflammatory immune response in the entire vagina and in the process eliminate all the vaginal warts. This is true of all warts even common warts on the hands and feet. People often get them, then soemthing stimulates a local immune response and the warts and the virus which caused them just go away on their own.

Another factor is vascular - cancers cells steal a huge network of blood vessels. Science is trying to find ways of starving the blood supply to cancer cells.
 
Paul Allen said:
Greatest and Gregory stop stressing, your both a little off the mark, but Greatest you are wrong and only make a fool of yourself getting aggressive when you are in fact wrong. Gregory is right to question you, and did so in a calm manner.

(Firstly, I'm a geneticist)

Cancer has nothing to do with the immune system (apart from cervical cancer in women which is caused by a virus).

1000's of mutations happen all the time in genes when your cells are dividing, but fortunatly we have certain genes present to stop this, namely the 'p53' gene, and there are also some others such as H-ras (stops cock ups in the eyes dividing), BRCA1 and BRCA2 (stops cock ups in the breasts and ovaries).

However, if your unfortunate to have a cell divide where things go wrong on other genes AND things go wrong on you regulating genes (p53 etc.), then your fucked... and cancer can occur as the regulating gene isn't working properly to stop the cell from dividing.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IMMUNITY!!! (Think about it.... people with AIDS die because of a cold effecting them as they have no immune system, if your thoughts were correct, everyone who has AIDS would probably die from cancer)

So, I think your way of thought, is spurious, and does not give a reason why tren might make you susceptible to cancer.

Just had to throw my knowledge on this!

Cancer is one of the fits things people with AIDS can get. They get a cancer on the tongue but I forget what the cancer is called.
 
Complex...

Paul Allen said:
Your right about genes being turned on and off and enviromental factors play a big role in this.

This topic could get very involved and complex, but to put it simply, lots of genes get told to turn off when on AAS e.g the genes that initiate test production, the genes that initiate spermatogenesis. Some also get turned on, such as those that cause extra receptors to be made, and tell satellite cells to turn into muscle cells.

It is highly doubtful that there is a direct link between anabolics and cancer but indirectly...., well, lets not kid ourselves, I'm sure we're eleveating the risk, but possibly only by a fraction i.e. no where near what smoking does, or years of working in an asbestos factory.

Asbestos and cigarrette smoke are known carcinogens, and even then not everyone gets cancer from them, so given that AAS have never really been linked the risk is minimal and the other healthy life style habits such as working out, diet, supplementary anti-oxidents etc., should go some way to counter acting this (in fact the amount of anti-oxidents I take, I actually think I'm at quite a low risk). Hope this helps all concerned!! :rainbow:


So bascially, taking AAS is less dangerous than smoking, but still indirectly elevates our risk for cancer.

This is what I was thinking, but I feel it's still a gray area; something that hasn't been fully studied yet. We won't know the true effects of long term AAS use until most of us are long gone.

DIV

:chomp:
 
GREGORY said:
Well if it's there all the time then you are basically screwed.


Nah, mayne.....

What Paul Allen means is: all cells have the potential to turn in to cancer, given the right circumstances and environment. Cancer needs the right environment to flourish and a lowered immune system sets the stage for this, also if you are predisposed genetically to cancer this also heightens your risk.

I hope I wrote this so everyone can understand it.

DIV

:chomp:
 
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