Fat burners with Keto?

[hiasdamoon]

So I have been reading about the Keto diet, and from what I understand- you eat high fats, high protiens, almost no carbs except for reload days. Forcing the body to fuel activity with fat.

So my question- if you were to go with something like the LipoShred stack and Keto are you defeating the purpose of the fat burner by eating a high fat diet?

In my head, I am thinking yes- but wanted to ask people more knowledgable then myself about this one. Thank you!

 

[Nelson Montana]

Personally I think the keto diet is a farce. The body doesn't suddenly use fat for fuel because it's carb deprived.

If you lost weight on the keto diet it's for 3 reasons...

You're dehydrated.

You lost muscle.

You ate less calories.

The end.

 

[hiasdamoon]

Nelson-

Thank you for the response. You definately are more knowledgable than myself here, and I agree with what your saying. I know the Keto seems to be the Atkins diet when I read about it just with carb reloading, but it has so many supporters....Consuming a lot of fat kind of seemed off to me, but with no first hand knowledge I did not want to call the program out.

There are definately a lot of articles out there regarding this one, but I think personally I will be better off staying around my 40/40/20 ratios for my own good. If anyone out there has some first hand knowledge here, please don't hesitate to respond!

 

[SouthernLord]

The shred stack is great, but If you do keto I would limit stimulant use. Stims spike cortisol which will eat up muscle on keto. Look for some non-stim fat burners.

 

[2evil]

Personally I think the keto diet is a farce. The body doesn't suddenly use fat for fuel because it's carb deprived.

If you lost weight on the keto diet it's for 3 reasons...

You're dehydrated.

You lost muscle.

You ate less calories.

The end.

I have had great success with CKD, particularly Body Opus. They do work and in my experience they are more muscle sparing than a calorie restricted diet in a natural state. Personally I've been able to cut fat about 50% faster with CKD.

This said, I think they are much harder to follow long term. Also, if you fuck up through the week you basically have destroyed the diet for that week which can lead to a complete food bender For these reasons I haven't run one in years.

You have to track your calories the same way you would with any diet and make sure you're drinking a lot more water. You won't hold on to any of it and is very difficult to stay hydrated. Once you're burning ketones (you need to make certain that you get into ketosis by testing with keto urine strips) you're body has shifted to burning ketones for fuel rather than glucose.

How good is the science? I dunno. But it has worked for me. Just don't drive by a dunkin donuts in carb depleted state....

 

[2evil]

I ran ECA on Keto, but yeah- be careful...

 

[SouthernLord]

I ran ECA on Keto, but yeah- be careful...

Were you on cycle?

I don't use AAS so when I post it's usually from that perspective... I can't help it

 

[2evil]

Were you on cycle?

I don't use AAS so when I post it's usually from that perspective... I can't help it

No. Just didn't run calories any more than 100-200 below maintenance. On Body Opus you're really manipulating insulin with your carb up timing and lifts. Got absolutely shredded and stronger. This was in 2000/2001.

One thing for sure is that your endurance is absolutely shot on this diet. For me high volume training was an impossibility.

I will probably run it again next year on a test/ primo cycle which I think will be pretty interesting.

 

[SouthernLord]

No. Just didn't run calories any more than 100-200 below maintenance. On Body Opus you're really manipulating insulin with your carb up timing and lifts. Got absolutely shredded and stronger. This was in 2000/2001.

One thing for sure is that your endurance is absolutely shot on this diet. For me high volume training was an impossibility.

I will probably run it again next year on a test/ primo cycle which I think will be pretty interesting.

Body Opus?

Is this the same thing as The Ultimate Diet 2.0 by Lyle McDonald. I have the ebook, but I've never read it.

 

[hiasdamoon]

Hmmm, interesting thoughts here keep them coming!!

 

[2evil]

Body Opus?

Is this the same thing as The Ultimate Diet 2.0 by Lyle McDonald. I have the ebook, but I've never read it.

I'm pretty sure that's based on Body Opus and McDonald logged his progress online some time back. Body Opus is actually Dan Duchaine's creation...

Amazon.com: Underground Bodyopus: Militant Weight Loss & Recomposition: Daniel Duchaine: Books

 

[Nelson Montana]

I have had great success with CKD, particularly Body Opus. They do work and in my experience they are more muscle sparing than a calorie restricted diet in a natural state. Personally I've been able to cut fat about 50% faster with CKD.

This said, I think they are much harder to follow long term. Also, if you fuck up through the week you basically have destroyed the diet for that week which can lead to a complete food bender For these reasons I haven't run one in years.

You have to track your calories the same way you would with any diet and make sure you're drinking a lot more water. You won't hold on to any of it and is very difficult to stay hydrated. Once you're burning ketones (you need to make certain that you get into ketosis by testing with keto urine strips) you're body has shifted to burning ketones for fuel rather than glucose.

How good is the science? I dunno. But it has worked for me. Just don't drive by a dunkin donuts in carb depleted state....

It's still the calorie deficit. And of course, you need carbs to be low -- just not THAT low. As for being muscle sparing, the science doesn't hold up. Being in ketosis is catabolic. That's just the way it is. I'm not doubting it didn't work for you , I'm just saying you don't need to be in ketosis for it to work.

 

[hiasdamoon]

So just staying with a normal 40/40/20 ratio with Carbs pre/post WO would be sufficient enough? Still keeping low carbs with calorie reduction but not entering Keto state which is said to be catabolic....

The thing that kind of puts me off about Keto is the high fat intake...

 

[2evil]

It's still the calorie deficit. And of course, you need carbs to be low -- just not THAT low. As for being muscle sparing, the science doesn't hold up. Being in ketosis is catabolic. That's just the way it is. I'm not doubting it didn't work for you , I'm just saying you don't need to be in ketosis for it to work.

I hear you. But really any calorie deficit is catabolic. I would be interested in any information you have that indicates that CKD is MORE catabolic.

I haven't seen anything that indicates this. In fact, I've seen more people claim that it's muscle sparing than not. The increased fat loss is usually attributed to the fact that fat is converted to ketones for fuel and if too many fats are converted to ketones they aren't stored for later use they're exreted. Remember- fat is converted to ketones while protein, if mobilized for energy - is converted to glucose. Once the body goesn into ketosis ketones are the prefered fuel over glucose. If you remain in ketosis for 5 1/2 days - as is prescribed in Body Opus - you're converting fat to ketones.

One of the other "benefits" (debatable) of a CKD is the extended periods of time with extremely low insuline. No one would recommend CKD during a bulking phase (you're never going to take advantage of the anabolic effects of insulin unless you're "supplementing" it) but reduced insulin does increase the bodys ability to utilize fatty acids for energy.

My experience and from a lot of logs and some psuedo science indicates (I know "bro science') that CKD IS catabolic - but primarily toward body fat!

 

[Nelson Montana]

I hear you. But really any calorie deficit is catabolic. I would be interested in any information you have that indicates that CKD is MORE catabolic.

I haven't seen anything that indicates this. In fact, I've seen more people claim that it's muscle sparing than not. The increased fat loss is usually attributed to the fact that fat is converted to ketones for fuel and if too many fats are converted to ketones they aren't stored for later use they're exreted. Remember- fat is converted to ketones while protein, if mobilized for energy - is converted to glucose. Once the body goesn into ketosis ketones are the prefered fuel over glucose. If you remain in ketosis for 5 1/2 days - as is prescribed in Body Opus - you're converting fat to ketones.

One of the other "benefits" (debatable) of a CKD is the extended periods of time with extremely low insuline. No one would recommend CKD during a bulking phase (you're never going to take advantage of the anabolic effects of insulin unless you're "supplementing" it) but reduced insulin does increase the bodys ability to utilize fatty acids for energy.

My experience and from a lot of logs and some psuedo science indicates (I know "bro science') that CKD IS catabolic - but primarily toward body fat!

Just to keep this going...

So many of these theories are just that -- stuff that sounds good, gets promoted and then parroted adinfitum.

The thing is this -- ketosis is the body's last attempt to protect the brain from failing. So besides being inneffectiant it's extremely stressful to the liver and kidneys, which in turn would lessen the effects of a cycle.

Sure, being in ketosis starts to use more fat for energy. It also eats muscle, because muscle is a viable fuel source -- maybe more so than fat because it, like carbohydrates. only require 4 units of energy per gram. Since the body doesn;t discriminate when it needs to survive, it may also draw upon organ tissue.

Add to the mix, increased uric acid, lowered HDL, nausea (which may help in the lowered consumption of food) and increased adrenaline (which may contribute to the increased "energy") and you have a diet that is essentially ass fucked.

One more thing-- being in a calorie deficit IS NOT catabolic, unless it's extremely severe. You may lose 1/100th of an ounce of muscle for every pound of fat you lose. It's no big deal.

 

[2evil]

Just to keep this going...

So many of these theories are just that -- stuff that sounds good, gets promoted and then parroted adinfitum.

The thing is this -- ketosis is the body's last attempt to protect the brain from failing. So besides being inneffectiant it's extremely stressful to the liver and kidneys, which in turn would lessen the effects of a cycle.

Sure, being in ketosis starts to use more fat for energy. It also eats muscle, because muscle is a viable fuel source -- maybe more so than fat because it, like carbohydrates. only require 4 units of energy per gram. Since the body doesn;t discriminate when it needs to survive, it may also draw upon organ tissue.

Add to the mix, increased uric acid, lowered HDL, nausea (which may help in the lowered consumption of food) and increased adrenaline (which may contribute to the increased "energy") and you have a diet that is essentially ass fucked.

One more thing-- being in a calorie deficit IS NOT catabolic, unless it's extremely severe. You may lose 1/100th of an ounce of muscle for every pound of fat you lose. It's no big deal.

Yes - keep it going - I'm enjoying it.

I'm not sure about the catabolism of a long term keto diet - but with CKD you're constantly switching between ketosis and glucosis. In ketosis you're not converting muscle to energy because fat is converted to ketones for energy - seemingly exclusively as glucose and thereby insulin levels are neglagable. Now at first it takes longer (ussually 2-3 weeks) to switch to ketosis. This can be a catabolic period because muscle tissue may be converted to glucose. But after going into ketosis you're sparing muscle (as the theory goes) because you're metabolizing fat into ketones - not muscle tissue into glucose.

In my experience my lipid profile improved significantly over three months of CKD. I believe my HDL went from the mid 40s to 69 while my LDL decreased. I've seen this reported elsewhere too - but it is all anecdotal.

However, I DID NOT have increased energy. Thus the ECA stack. The carb ups were glorious!

Naseau was only an issue for me in the very begining. Now I would be interested in seeeing evidence of increased stress on the liver and kidneys while in ketosis versus a diet that forces the liver to convert fat to glucose.

I'm just not seeing WHY CKD would be anymore catabolic. You're burning fat into ketones. Unhealthy - maybe but I haven't seen anything conclusive other than temporarily raised uric acid and gout for those susceptible.