Everyone loses gains??

[PatBateman]

There was a great debate on another board about keeping gains, and a well respected vet basically argued that everyone loses what they make unless they continue to cycle periodically. Here is some post for comment:

T: "Ya don't keep any of it...no matter how long you're on. The reason you get gains is because of the drug. Once the drug is gone, the gains will soon follow. I was on the better half of six years and for almost two years straight. I came off and have so far lost almost 30 lbs of muscle. I did everything I know how to keep it but with out the drug, the body goes back to it's homeostasis (comfort level) you don't keep the gains. The only reason you get gains is because of the elavated hormone levels. Once they're gone...they drop below normal, then rise to normal. No period of time on is going to prevent that.

Ya wanna keep the weight you gained? Don't come off.

I'll agree with the longer cycles, but not smaller amounts. His goal is size. Tell me what harm is there to larger doses as apposed to smaller doses? Give me either a case study or a reference...not opinion."





ME: "You mean you don't keep any of it past your genetic potential limit which varies for everyone, right? Someone who could be naturally 220 and gets there a bit quicker with gear, I think, can mantain that weight. What your getting at, and I agree, is forcing the body past a point it doesn't want to sustain?"





T: "K, I'm gonna say something I never have on the board. It's pretty bizarre thinking. The only stuff I took when maintaining (not gaining) was T200 @ 500mg per week and Fina at 60mg every day. I only took the fina for strength gains.

Testosterone is the secret. Plain and simple. You can mix and match all the other drugs and gear you want but when it comes down to it TESTOSTERONE is all you really need. Deca builds mass, dbol builds mass, anadrol...mass..yadda yadda..etc. I would still take good ol' test over any of them if given the choice. Cutting gear is another story, but still...when I'm cutting I still use more test than most do bulking.

My mass cycle is this.

2500mg T200 week
50mg dbol a day
Fina 60mg twice per day
30 IU slin a day

I was 5'7" and 240lbs at my heaviest. I could out bench, squat press everyone and I had MASS to spare. I don't need all the other bullshit designer gear to grow. I can't tell you how hard it is not to laugh or tease people when they start getting into different esters and tests and receptor sites. It's easier than you're making it. MY GOODNESS it's not rocket science. DONT TURN IT INTO THAT!

My recomendation: Stay on year round. A dose that is low enough to maintain the level you want. Whether that's 500mg per week or 500mg per month. You need to figure that out on your own. Make it simple...it's a drug. Take the drug..get the effect. Remove the drug..remove the effect. YOU WILL LOSE SIZE WHEN YOU COME OFF PERIOD!! Stay on and keep the size. It's the only way. HCG, Clomid will help bring levels back to normal...but you will lose your gains over time no matter what.

Take away the drug and you'll lose it's effect.
You may be 220 at your genetic potential and stay there after using gear, but the muscle mass to fat ratio will not stay the same. YOU WILL LOSE YOUR GAINS."

 

[DownUnder23]

i think that you lose all your gains is bullshit!

 

[scout420]

I say thats bullshit, I hardly lost anything off my first 2 cycles, a little strength but nothing major, As long as you do clomid therepy post cycle and keep training good you should be able to maintain most of your gains.

 

[web_dj]

you will lose alot but not everything. IMO

 

[Beezers]

You will loose the gains that have exceeded your genetic, natural limitations. Your body cvan only naturally grow and maintain so much muscle. This varries with everyone as it is determined by genetics. The idea of AS use is to artificially create an environment that is conducinve for growing and maintianin an amount of muscle mass that the body otherwise(naturally) could no carry. This is why it is preached to wait until you've exhausted your natural abilities before turning to pharmecuetical assistance. Should you not reach your natural limit before you juice, AS use will spped your ascent to your natural limit and probably not exceed it within your first cycle. Should this be the case your body is at its natural limit, determined by genetics, and it is able to maintain this amount of msucle tissue without assistance of exogenous hromones. The result is that you won't loose your gains.

On the other hand. If you use AS to push your muscularity beyond what your body can carry naturally you will loose the amount of gains that are greater than your natural predisposition once you discontinue the drugs. The drugs create an artificial limit of muscularity and due to supraphysiological levels of androgen you are able to grow and maintian far more muscle than your normal hormone levels ever could. AS are like a computer program. Xmg's of drug A programs the body to grow more muscle than was previously possible up to a programmed point(genetically determined, as well as being influenced by nutritional status and training protocol). Like installing an upgrade. Erase that program (cease drug use) and the system will run on the old, lesser performing program. Your body will revert back to its programmed function.

So unless you are not passed you natural limits you will loose muscle following a cycle. Whether AS "re-wires" the muscles to somehow maintain themselves at an amount slightly above what would have normally been acheived without drugs is questionabel, but it certainly wouldn't be to a point allowing one to maintain 20 more pounds than thier genetic predisposition would.

 

[Zyglamail]

Keep in mind that many cycles in use today, especially those that contain GH, actually change your body, they increase your natural potential to a degree. Now having siad that, while on, the AAS will allow you to go beyond what nature intended, and when off gians will diminush if far beyond what your body can naturally sustain. However I feel that each cycle also raises your natural potential a bit as well. Look at some of the older pro's who dont juice anymore, they look great for their age and you can bet had they still trianed all their life but never juiced, they would be no where near as large as they are today.

 

[Punschkrapfen]

My recomendation: Stay on year round. A dose that is low enough to maintain the level you want. Whether that's 500mg per week or 500mg per month. You need to figure that out on your own.

thats what it eventually boils down to. There is no way to keep your gains when your natural testosterone levels decrease with age.

 

[serge]

Keep in mind that many cycles in use today, especially those that contain GH, actually change your body, they increase your natural potential to a degree. Now having siad that, while on, the AAS will allow you to go beyond what nature intended, and when off gians will diminush if far beyond what your body can naturally sustain. However I feel that each cycle also raises your natural potential a bit as well. Look at some of the older pro's who dont juice anymore, they look great for their age and you can bet had they still trianed all their life but never juiced, they would be no where near as large as they are today.

Lue, Arnold, Larry Scott, Dorian.........all still look thick, i doubt they would get up their have they never touched gear, so i agree with zyg on this one

 

[Crankin'steiN]

I would agree for the most part that you cannot keep any gains above your natural potential after coming off the sauce. But Zyglamail, has a good point and you may be able to change your natural potential fo rmuscularity.

 

[Razarsharp]

2 cycles in the bag - lost nothing, a few pounds here and there in lifts but that was it. Key is diet and consistent lifting. Only reason I have found for losses with many of the gym rats at my place are partying too much, relying on the sauce for everything, and crashing hard afterwards (even with clomid treatment - it was very psychological).

 

[Machiavellian Muscle]

Lue, Arnold, Larry Scott, Dorian.........all still look thick, i doubt they would get up their have they never touched gear, so i agree with zyg on this one

Yeah they do, but they are genetic superfreaks. Hard to judge how they would look if they never took aas. If arnold was natural and never took aas I bet he could possible be bigger now and have none of the medical complications that he currently has.

 

[Willyumyum]

You will loose the gains that have exceeded your genetic, natural limitations. Your body cvan only naturally grow and maintain so much muscle. This varries with everyone as it is determined by genetics. The idea of AS use is to artificially create an environment that is conducinve for growing and maintianin an amount of muscle mass that the body otherwise(naturally) could no carry. This is why it is preached to wait until you've exhausted your natural abilities before turning to pharmecuetical assistance. Should you not reach your natural limit before you juice, AS use will spped your ascent to your natural limit and probably not exceed it within your first cycle. Should this be the case your body is at its natural limit, determined by genetics, and it is able to maintain this amount of msucle tissue without assistance of exogenous hromones. The result is that you won't loose your gains.

On the other hand. If you use AS to push your muscularity beyond what your body can carry naturally you will loose the amount of gains that are greater than your natural predisposition once you discontinue the drugs. The drugs create an artificial limit of muscularity and due to supraphysiological levels of androgen you are able to grow and maintian far more muscle than your normal hormone levels ever could. AS are like a computer program. Xmg's of drug A programs the body to grow more muscle than was previously possible up to a programmed point(genetically determined, as well as being influenced by nutritional status and training protocol). Like installing an upgrade. Erase that program (cease drug use) and the system will run on the old, lesser performing program. Your body will revert back to its programmed function.

So unless you are not passed you natural limits you will loose muscle following a cycle. Whether AS "re-wires" the muscles to somehow maintain themselves at an amount slightly above what would have normally been acheived without drugs is questionabel, but it certainly wouldn't be to a point allowing one to maintain 20 more pounds than thier genetic predisposition would.

As always, well said bro

YUM

 

[the_only_sepe]

most of the people that come off year round use, consider themselves natural, but they still do cycles here and there. and I think a major factor in them keeping gains is most of them stay on gh year round.

 

[JKD]

this is depressing - i come off in 2 weeks. The horror!

 

[serge]

Yeah they do, but they are genetic superfreaks. Hard to judge how they would look if they never took aas. If arnold was natural and never took aas I bet he could possible be bigger now and have none of the medical complications that he currently has.

do really doubt that they would get up there naturally, no way

how about Frank Sepe? he is off, still 230lb fucking ripped, gear free

 

[the_only_sepe]

do really doubt that they would get up there naturally, no way

how about Frank Sepe? he is off, still 230lb fucking ripped, gear free

frank stays 240-250 yr round no more no less

 

[me2dammit]

yeah

I read this guys post on another board and think it is bullshit.

This guy was 5'7" and 240 for godsake. Arnold was 235-240 and he was 6'2. I think most of us agree arnold was big.

So this guy was of course going to loose alot of muscle. 240 at 5'7" give ma a break. 6'1 and 240 is big, this guy was basically trying to say when you come of gear you wont look like a dam freak anymore, but you will still be big as hell.

I especially think longer cycles or staying on gear for a while changes the body more than short cycles.

 

[PatBateman]

You will loose the gains that have exceeded your genetic, natural limitations. Your body cvan only naturally grow and maintain so much muscle. This varries with everyone as it is determined by genetics. The idea of AS use is to artificially create an environment that is conducinve for growing and maintianin an amount of muscle mass that the body otherwise(naturally) could no carry. This is why it is preached to wait until you've exhausted your natural abilities before turning to pharmecuetical assistance. Should you not reach your natural limit before you juice, AS use will spped your ascent to your natural limit and probably not exceed it within your first cycle. Should this be the case your body is at its natural limit, determined by genetics, and it is able to maintain this amount of msucle tissue without assistance of exogenous hromones. The result is that you won't loose your gains.

On the other hand. If you use AS to push your muscularity beyond what your body can carry naturally you will loose the amount of gains that are greater than your natural predisposition once you discontinue the drugs. The drugs create an artificial limit of muscularity and due to supraphysiological levels of androgen you are able to grow and maintian far more muscle than your normal hormone levels ever could. AS are like a computer program. Xmg's of drug A programs the body to grow more muscle than was previously possible up to a programmed point(genetically determined, as well as being influenced by nutritional status and training protocol). Like installing an upgrade. Erase that program (cease drug use) and the system will run on the old, lesser performing program. Your body will revert back to its programmed function.

So unless you are not passed you natural limits you will loose muscle following a cycle. Whether AS "re-wires" the muscles to somehow maintain themselves at an amount slightly above what would have normally been acheived without drugs is questionabel, but it certainly wouldn't be to a point allowing one to maintain 20 more pounds than thier genetic predisposition would.

Very, very nice post.

 

[CRAZYPITBULL]

Keep in mind that many cycles in use today, especially those that contain GH, actually change your body, they increase your natural potential to a degree. Now having siad that, while on, the AAS will allow you to go beyond what nature intended, and when off gians will diminush if far beyond what your body can naturally sustain. However I feel that each cycle also raises your natural potential a bit as well. Look at some of the older pro's who dont juice anymore, they look great for their age and you can bet had they still trianed all their life but never juiced, they would be no where near as large as they are today.

I totally agree.Even though you feel small and insignificant post cycle,you are still further than you would ever be without gear.

 

[pittbull2]

There was a great debate on another board about keeping gains, and a well respected vet basically argued that everyone loses what they make unless they continue to cycle periodically. Here is some post for comment:

T: "Ya don't keep any of it...no matter how long you're on. The reason you get gains is because of the drug. Once the drug is gone, the gains will soon follow. I was on the better half of six years and for almost two years straight. I came off and have so far lost almost 30 lbs of muscle. I did everything I know how to keep it but with out the drug, the body goes back to it's homeostasis (comfort level) you don't keep the gains. The only reason you get gains is because of the elavated hormone levels. Once they're gone...they drop below normal, then rise to normal. No period of time on is going to prevent that.

Ya wanna keep the weight you gained? Don't come off.

I'll agree with the longer cycles, but not smaller amounts. His goal is size. Tell me what harm is there to larger doses as apposed to smaller doses? Give me either a case study or a reference...not opinion."

How long were you off to lose almost 30 lbs?





ME: "You mean you don't keep any of it past your genetic potential limit which varies for everyone, right? Someone who could be naturally 220 and gets there a bit quicker with gear, I think, can mantain that weight. What your getting at, and I agree, is forcing the body past a point it doesn't want to sustain?"





T: "K, I'm gonna say something I never have on the board. It's pretty bizarre thinking. The only stuff I took when maintaining (not gaining) was T200 @ 500mg per week and Fina at 60mg every day. I only took the fina for strength gains.

Testosterone is the secret. Plain and simple. You can mix and match all the other drugs and gear you want but when it comes down to it TESTOSTERONE is all you really need. Deca builds mass, dbol builds mass, anadrol...mass..yadda yadda..etc. I would still take good ol' test over any of them if given the choice. Cutting gear is another story, but still...when I'm cutting I still use more test than most do bulking.

My mass cycle is this.

2500mg T200 week
50mg dbol a day
Fina 60mg twice per day
30 IU slin a day

I was 5'7" and 240lbs at my heaviest. I could out bench, squat press everyone and I had MASS to spare. I don't need all the other bullshit designer gear to grow. I can't tell you how hard it is not to laugh or tease people when they start getting into different esters and tests and receptor sites. It's easier than you're making it. MY GOODNESS it's not rocket science. DONT TURN IT INTO THAT!

My recomendation: Stay on year round. A dose that is low enough to maintain the level you want. Whether that's 500mg per week or 500mg per month. You need to figure that out on your own. Make it simple...it's a drug. Take the drug..get the effect. Remove the drug..remove the effect. YOU WILL LOSE SIZE WHEN YOU COME OFF PERIOD!! Stay on and keep the size. It's the only way. HCG, Clomid will help bring levels back to normal...but you will lose your gains over time no matter what.

Take away the drug and you'll lose it's effect.
You may be 220 at your genetic potential and stay there after using gear, but the muscle mass to fat ratio will not stay the same. YOU WILL LOSE YOUR GAINS."