DoggCrap Vs HST which is better?

[SSAlexSS]

Which routine gave you the best results,

Crapp routine or HST (hypertrophy specific training by Bryan Haycock).

everyone vote/reply!

 

[Debaser]

Honestly how many people are really qualified to answer this? I'm the only person on here that I know of that's actually done both.

However,

BOTH ARE LIGHT YEARS BETTER THAN THE VOLUME ROUTINES 95% OF YOU ARE DOING.

 

[coolcolj]

I've done a bit of HST, it's pretty good, but things could still be better, as it doesn't address certain aspects which I thinka re important

 

[casualbb]

CoolColJ -- Like what? From your progress pics, the first to second one, the "inches" vs. "fractions of an inch" all came from one HST minicycle.

I personally would only do DC if I were interested in strength instead of muscle growth. After doing HST for 6 months and following it for longer, the amount of knowledge I've gained... my thinking has adjusted away from the whole sets/reps mentality to the underlying growth principles. You'll just wake up one day and realize why every single program in the history of man has or has not worked. It's like a paradigm shift.

The DC routine is not based on physiology. It's basically a modified HIT routine based mostly on a high frequency of work. The rest-pause technique will increase strength and provide progressive load, but the other stuff like 6-8 second negatives and static holds? Almost pointless.

-casualbb

 

[coolcolj]

For pure size, without regard to how it comes about then HST is good, but since I have strength and performance goals in mind as well, then I need to tend to other aspects. The problem with it, is that it's a still a linear style periodisation.
I did get great results using it as a lead in into a more strength power type phase.

but with a bit of tinkering and running power and speed exercises along side the basic HST hypertrophy scheme, then it can be almost perfect
Also the SD phase is bad from the point of view that power will drop off a lot during this time, CNS factors, whereas msucle mass will pretty much remain intact

 

[casualbb]

Heh, good point. I guess with HST it's all in the name. Bryan is always quick to give the disclaimer that the plan is not about strength gains, although mine have been pretty good.

After my 4th cycle (currently on my 3rd,) I might follow your example and use HST as a slingshot into the soviet smolov routine for squats, since my squat weights are so pitiful

-casualbb

 

[skaman607]

I don't see too much difference between the two. They are both low volume, the only difference I see is how they progress, HST uses heavie weights and fewer reps, while DC adds to the volume. Is that the only differene or am I missing something? I do understand that these are major differences though.

 

[coolcolj]

HST works much better for people who are already very strong and have been training a while IMO.
If you have the strength base, HST could be very good.

 

[Fatty4You]

Here's my thinking lately. There are two things that can affect strength:

1. CNS adaptations.
2. Increased size of the muscle.

From what i have heard / read, strength due to CNS adaptations is dominant in teh begining of lifting and when someone is doing very very heavy weights with low reps.

However, with HST or DoggCrapp method, heaviest weights are not used, nor are the reps very low. To me, this means that in order for strength to increase, cross-sectional area of the muscle has to increase [size] to account for the strength.

So, accroding to this thinking, in order for HST or DC to bring about dramatic strength increases, muscle size has to increase...

Any thoughts about this logic?

-Fatty

 

[casualbb]

I don't see too much difference between the two. They are both low volume, the only difference I see is how they progress, HST uses heavie weights and fewer reps, while DC adds to the volume. Is that the only differene or am I missing something? I do understand that these are major differences though.

Actually, in HST you're mostly working with light weights. It's sort of like the 5x5 in the sense that you start a microcycle deliberately below your rep max and work up to it.

I highly suggest you read up on HST: http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html

So, accroding to this thinking, in order for HST or DC to bring about dramatic strength increases, muscle size has to increase...

Sort of. The DC method is really geared towards strength gains. Working to extreme failure once every 3 or 4 days is a strength program. The optimal frequency to be a constant state of growth is once every 36 hours. Usually the more fatigued one is neurally the better the neurological adaptations. Such is the case with the rest-pause technique.

Another thing that may contribute to the dramatic strength increases observed early in the DC program is the super-long negatives. Most people aren't neurologically "used" to doing such long negatives. It's been found continuously that both the neural and muscular systems will adapt to the speed used. Lower the weight quickly and you'll gain fast-twitch fibers and strength. Lower the weight slowly and you'll gain no fast-twitch fibers and simply become better at, well, lowering ... weight .. slowly.

-casualbb

 

[Fatty4You]

Usually the more fatigued one is neurally the better the neurological adaptations. Such is the case with the rest-pause technique.

I thought the whole theory behind the DC method was that my lowering the volume, you dont fatigue your CNS as much. From what i read, it seemed that the reason people need to rest so long from crazy volume is because the CNS recouperates slower than the muscles.... So it seems that DC was more about muscle work, and less about CNS work.

Lower the weight slowly and you'll gain no fast-twitch fibers and simply become better at, well, lowering ... weight .. slowly.

I assume you mean gaining size in a particular fiber.... because you dont actually gain or lose fibers types... Like you can't actually gain Type II fibers, you can only increase their size.

-Fatty

 

[casualbb]

I thought the whole theory behind the DC method was that my lowering the volume, you dont fatigue your CNS as much. From what i read, it seemed that the reason people need to rest so long from crazy volume is because the CNS recouperates slower than the muscles.... So it seems that DC was more about muscle work, and less about CNS work.

Sort of. CNS fatigue is a function of both volume and the weight lifted relative to maximum. What I mean by that is more volume definitely causes more CNS fatigue. But it's also related to perceived effort, or "intensity." Say you are lifting your 5RM. Now say for some weird reason you want 6 reps (I see a lot of guys do this). You pump out 5, and on the 6th, you're stuck there, the bar's not moving, and you need your spotter to help you up. Now you will be fatigued simply due to the fact that you trained to failure. That single extra rep you had to eke out will cost an addition day+ of recovery. So in that sense, three sets of 5 all at subfailure could cause less fatigue than one rest-pause set of 10 performed on the brink of failure.

assume you mean gaining size in a particular fiber.... because you dont actually gain or lose fibers types... Like you can't actually gain Type II fibers, you can only increase their size.

I was of the same opinion, but then I ran across this study. I posted the full abstract in the DC sticky, so I'll just recap the pertinent part.

Eur J Appl Physiol 2001 Sep;85(5):466-71
Adaptation to chronic eccentric exercise in humans: the influence of contraction velocity.
Paddon-Jones D, Leveritt M, Lonergan A, Abernethy P.

The percentage of type I fibres in the FAST group decreased from [53.8 (6.6)% to 39.1 (4.4)%] while type IIb fibre percentage increased from [5.8 (1.9)% to 12.9 (3.3)%; P < 0.05]. In contrast, the SLOW group did not experience significant changes in muscle fibre type or muscle torque.

Basically, just to recap, two groups: fast eccentric group and slow eccentric group. Note: type 1 fibers are "slow-twitch," IIb's are "extreme fast-twitch."

-casualbb

 

[Fatty4You]

I see what you are saying about the CNS fatigue about going to extreme failure so to speak.

As for the switching fibers... yeah, i have read about that. Type I is slow and Type II is fast-twitch, but IIa have some of the "fatigue-resistant" properties of type I. However, what i dont understand is that when you start training, pretty much all your [or a lot] IIb fibers swtich to IIa. I dont understand that. It seems that they would want to stay IIb for power.

My text book even mentioned IIc, at the farthest end of the fiber continueum, but i have not really read anything documented about it.

-Fatty

 

[RusPA81]

HST works much better for people who are already very strong and have been training a while IMO.
If you have the strength base, HST could be very good.

I argee with this somewhat, but I have had a few friends start HST that have been training for less then 2 years and have had great gains. The real key to it I think is being able to stick to it and completing each planned workout. Many people who havent been traing for a long time dont have a dedication to come everytime or dont seem to understand that you cant skip workouts.

 

[Toozee]

I have had pretty good success with HST. Had good gains from it. I'm alternating between 5x5 and HST and its been pretty successful. I did do the HST first then went into a 5x5 and size and strength went up with them respectively. Strength is still going up on the 5x5, and when that stops, I'll switch into an HST cycle for size only....then possibly another or back to the 5x5, etc.

In June, after cutting, was 175 @ 9-10% ...........now about 203 about 13-14% (rough guess).

As for DC....can't say anything because I've never done it.
I work out alone, so it makes that kind of training difficult.

Only thing I can say is try the one out that appeals to u the most.

 

[Singleton]

I did do the HST first then went into a 5x5 and size and strength went up with them respectively. Strength is still going up on the 5x5, and when that stops, I'll switch into an HST cycle for size only....

I did this last cycle too. I got huge strength gains. Basically, instead of doing negatives, I switched to 5x5. My strength went way way up. Then I had some joint problems and I did a 9 day SD. I'm starting out with 20's now cause I wanna build more vascularity. I'll do 20's 15's 10's and then switch to 5x5 again.