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Does training sore muscles = overtraining?
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swordfish151
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I was wondering the same thing..i did chest/tri on Friday and then did them yeserday again (started hitting the bodypart twice a wk) well this time around when i did chest and the end, my elbows started feeling funny...when i got to the tri's ... the pain almost was felt in the funny bone...it hurt but it made me want to laugh at the same time? I was a little sore, but im not sure if what was up with my elbows...never has happend..then again i have only been training a body part once a wk.
musketeer
New member
Yeah it's overtraining!
If you are sore then you havn't healed up. If you haven;t healed then you havn't grown.
Someone will probably have a study that concludes against this, but I would like to hear it explained in plain English as to how you can grow before you have recovered!
If you are sore then you havn't healed up. If you haven;t healed then you havn't grown.
Someone will probably have a study that concludes against this, but I would like to hear it explained in plain English as to how you can grow before you have recovered!
musketeer said:
Overtraining is systemic rather than related to an individual muscle. DOMS soreness is largely a product of doing unaccustomed work. It's not an indicator that someone is or is not growing or getting stronger. Squat 1x every 3 weeks for high volume and you'll be ripping sore for days. Squat 3x per week with moderate volume and you generally won't even be stiff and you'll likely grow a lot better. Basically if your program is setup correctly, train through soreness. If you are sore to the point where it is dangerous or a major impediment, do some light active recovery work and train when able (you should not be getting this sore).
On the subject of growth and recovery (not related to DOMS), this is related to single factor theory vs. dual factor theory (fitness fatigue theory). Dual factor theory is basically the foundation under which just about every single elite athlete in the world is trained. There is consensus accross just about every researcher and strength coach in the world.
I have 3 linked posts in my table of contents in the 5x5 thread here. Almost right at the top: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375215
This is a link to midway through a thread. Somewhere forward of around post 160 over the next few pages (to the end) dual factor theory is painstakingly explained to Gfgomaz - one of the denser individuals on the planet who has painstakingly studied all thing Mentzer, Flex and Muscle and Fitness for over a decade to arrive at training Nirvana. There is a lot of good info and links throughout the whole thread but if you skim forward you'll find some detailed very basic explanations.
http://www.fortifiediron.net/invision/index.php?showtopic=6685&st=150
swordfish151
New member
i guess im confused madcow...so i did chest again yesterday wasnt sore from when i did it on Friday..had a great workout and felt pumped..so i went in yesterday doing the same wieght..but couldnt do as many reps? AND by the end of the workout my elbows were killing me...never has happend before..is this because i have never trained a body part 2 a/wk??? Do you lower the volume on the second scession? i guess im trying to figure out how you wouldnt be sore on the 5x5 doing the same volume 3 times a wk..or is that wrong?
BigBadBootyDaddy29
New member
Swordfish, it is all in how you set up the program and cycle your training in terms of loading/deloading. Definitely check out the links Madcow posted, it is all explained there.
Basically, the idea of fully recovering before you hit a bodypart again is not optimal because you miss the window of opportunity to progress, kind of like squatting every 3 months, sure you will no longer be sore, but it won't do a damn thing. I agree with the dual factor approach, it is disheartening for everyone brainwashed by Weider principles and Mentzer's "seemingly intelligent" writings and all the mainstream, so-called hard-core mags, but check out the links, do a lot of research, the scientific research is out there, and the practical real-world results are out there.
Basically, the idea of fully recovering before you hit a bodypart again is not optimal because you miss the window of opportunity to progress, kind of like squatting every 3 months, sure you will no longer be sore, but it won't do a damn thing. I agree with the dual factor approach, it is disheartening for everyone brainwashed by Weider principles and Mentzer's "seemingly intelligent" writings and all the mainstream, so-called hard-core mags, but check out the links, do a lot of research, the scientific research is out there, and the practical real-world results are out there.
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swordfish151
New member
BigBadBootyDaddy29 said:
Yeah i printed those "lengthy" articles...great reads...i can see what you mean by training one body part a week...i know when i did it that way...i wasnt as sore...but didnt seem to gain...cant wait to see how this (2X a wk) will work out...i did feel pumped after my second scession.....just the elbow pain was new...
swordfish151 said:
Well, firstly. If you lood at the 5x5 program you are never doing the same thing 3 days per week. The squat is the only lift trained on 3 days and then only in the loading phase. However, there is a significantly different protocol each day. Mon = 5x5 with constant set weight, Wed = 5x5 with with constant weight but 10-20% less than Monday, Fri = a pyramid to a single heavy set of 5. So intensity and to a degree volume is varied each day of the week. Also over the coarse of the program you are scaling intensity so no 2 weeks are ever the same. This will no doubt overtrain most people in around 4 weeks when setup properly (with 2 really heavy weeks at the end), and that's the point. You will reach the point right on the verge of overtraining called "overreaching" at this point you deload slashing volume and frequency allowing the body to catch back up and adapt. There is a delayed training effect and accrued fatique involved here. You aren't making progress workout to workout but block to block. It's not linear (because the body will only respond like that for beginners) but there is a huge reason why this method is broadly used with success all around the world.
So forget the pump - that and soreness mean nothing. You have two issues. One is the elbow - this is not part of normal training. This can be tendonitis or any number of things. The other is that, yes I do advocate higher frequency (as does the whole world for the most part as 1x per week is just garbage for a base training program and largely evolved because BBers didn't understand the whole fatigue thing, noticed they came back stronger after a break, and didn't ask anyone with any knowledge so all they did was lengthen the periods between workouts thinking this was evidence of overtraining - this happened around the early 1990s when BBers went from doing 3 on 1 off (some even AM/PM) to what is currently popular - a single factor supercompensation volumous HIT type approach that doesn't work all too well.
So higher frequency, yes - but there are other huge factors at play. How much volume? What's the intensity and the total load you are applying over a period. You can overtrain on 1x per week, you can overtrain on 3x per week. You can make gains on 2-3x per week but consistently training 1x per week the way most people are doing it just won't work all that well. The tolerance someone has will also increase with experience but varies significantly between lifters of the same level. This is a short (I promise) worthwhile read that will illustrate the point: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4776914&postcount=386
swordfish151
New member
I gottcha madcow...there is where i went wrong..tried to do the same amount as last time..clearly you wrote 10-20% less volume ...duh! the elbow thing as never EVER come up..just yesterday..i always lift heavy..so i thought maybe it was due to lifting 2/wk at the same HEAVY volume ... i dont know... but i am reading all your articles...great great information...wish i read that back in highschool!
It really is going to vary by the individual but what you don't want to do is just double your frequency and keep the exact workout i.e. double your volume. Better to split 6 sets of squats into 3 and 3 than perform 6 sets 2x per week. Maybe later on you can handle it but if you do that right away, you'll likely get buried fast.
To give you an idea. The deloading phase for a few lifters training for upcoming Nationals in OL has in each week heavy front squat (3 workouts), heavy back squat (3 workouts), and AM/PM sessions of heavy clean/snatch (6 workouts each). Another 3 light days for technique and assistance. Think about what that implies for a loading phase if this is deloading. Now think that there are lifters and teams (Greeks, Bulg, etc...) that can apply staggering loads that dwarf that. Here's a post with some of the weights employed in the deloading workout.
http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=857&view=findpost&p=11746
To give you an idea. The deloading phase for a few lifters training for upcoming Nationals in OL has in each week heavy front squat (3 workouts), heavy back squat (3 workouts), and AM/PM sessions of heavy clean/snatch (6 workouts each). Another 3 light days for technique and assistance. Think about what that implies for a loading phase if this is deloading. Now think that there are lifters and teams (Greeks, Bulg, etc...) that can apply staggering loads that dwarf that. Here's a post with some of the weights employed in the deloading workout.
http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=857&view=findpost&p=11746
swordfish151 said:
Question - are you following one of the programs I I have in my 5x5 thread? Something is wrong if you are "always lifting heavy." In the standard version you shouldn't really be pushing hard until week 3 through 4 assuming you are already in good condiition for this kind of program (otherwise start lighter and push in week 5 through 6). If this is the novice version you are using, you should start light just to acclimate yourself before pushing hard (this program also has heavy/light type protocol so I'm not seeing how what you wrote really fits in with starting any of the programs I have in my thread)..
swordfish151
New member
Madcow2 said:
no sorry bro, havent started your program yet...was trying to adapt certain concepts to what im doing now..by no means trying to change the 5x5 just incorporating certain ideas...im starting the 5x5 monday
Ahh - that makes sense. I didn't think you were changing it but more misunderstood something and I wanted to catch you before you loaded heavy for 4 weeks straight and found out what overtraining really means (it is not pleasant). You should start light, the first week you should get through all the workouts without too much issue at all. I'd also figure out your elbow situation. That's not from training 2x per week. That could be an injury of some kind.
swordfish151
New member
Madcow2 said:
Feels fine today..just at that moment..man..cant really explain it..it hurt but tickled at the same time...i felt pain but wanted to laugh..funny bone? But yeah i have been reading the 5x5 thread over and over..writing out a plan to get it right.
I just remembered my question on the bench part of the 5x5 can i do inlclines instead of flats??? reason? 3 months or so ago i felt a strange pull in my shoulder/trapp area ever since then i wasnt able to bench (flat) due to a pain in that region...i can incline..heavy too..but i just cant bench on a flat surface...havent really tried to either in the last 2 months since the pain is really bad.
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Orthopedist....would be my suggestion. Sounds like you might have an issue somewhere.
Anyway, you can't load as much weight using incline as flat so if you can manage a very low incline press and substitute it that would be preferable. If you have to sub incline then sub incline - an injury is more than enough reason (you should get it checked out of it's still bothering you).
Anyway, you can't load as much weight using incline as flat so if you can manage a very low incline press and substitute it that would be preferable. If you have to sub incline then sub incline - an injury is more than enough reason (you should get it checked out of it's still bothering you).
swordfish151
New member
Madcow2 said:
great...how is the program while cutting? doing legs twice at wk or more at any volume will kill your legs for any kind of cardio dont you think? so the days that you dont lift i was thinking cardio day? i guess im not understanding the 5x5 now that i have read the other threads...i thought it was 5 sets for 5 reps with the same wieght..meaing 5 sets of say 235 5X but i read the other stickies on your article and it seems like its 5 sets of (pyramid up wieghts) for 5 reps? so 1st 185x5....2nd 205x5.....3rd 220x5 and so on? is this correct?
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4764723&postcount=381
Just read the 2 asterix under the program layout.
5x5 = 5 sets of 5 with working set weight
1x5 = Pyramid through 5 sets of 5 to a target set of 5 (so the weights scale up each set of 5 to the target)
5x5 with 20% less than Monday = self explan
I don't know whether or not you've read this new full description I wrote. I kind of took everyone's questions and synthesized it into one. It's at least better than pasting in or linking the old explanation I typed up in 5 minutes a few years ago at F.Iron. If you haven't read this one then give it a full careful read because it explicitly answers a lot of the most common questions.
Just read the 2 asterix under the program layout.
5x5 = 5 sets of 5 with working set weight
1x5 = Pyramid through 5 sets of 5 to a target set of 5 (so the weights scale up each set of 5 to the target)
5x5 with 20% less than Monday = self explan
I don't know whether or not you've read this new full description I wrote. I kind of took everyone's questions and synthesized it into one. It's at least better than pasting in or linking the old explanation I typed up in 5 minutes a few years ago at F.Iron. If you haven't read this one then give it a full careful read because it explicitly answers a lot of the most common questions.
swordfish151
New member
Madcow2 said:
yeah thats the one i printed out..ok so i did understand it correctly 5set of 5reps w/working weight..and the 1x5 is pyramid set...so do you work up to your working weight as before..so if you bench 235 for 5 then your 1x5 should start off light and work up to 235 or you pass the 235 mark?
swordfish151 said:
Nope.
So I don't have a lot of time tonight but I'll make sure you get it before you start. Your 1x5 is a totally separate workout from your 5x5 and has different current maxes and target set weights for each week. What you are doing is ramping your target weights upward during the cycle to arrive at your current maxes in week 3 (or first record week). So if your current best set of 5 is 235, you might pyramid to 195 in week 1, 215 in week 2, 235 in week 3, and if successful 240-245 or whatever in week 4. The same holds true for your best 5x5 (which is a bit less than 1x5 due to sheer volume of work sets). Put your best 5x5 for week 3 (and then back into training weights for weeks 1 and 2).
So the purpose of a pyramid is just to give you some added volume and allow you to hit your best set of 5. A more advanced lifter might use 5x5 twice a week with a single light day in between but that would really overdo most people coming from a BBing program and likely slaughter a few. You aren't lifting at your current records until week 3 and you can adjust your target training weights week to week as needed.
You should read the links under Weight Selection. This is a fairly good one to illustrate this: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4652618&postcount=211
swordfish151
New member
how does cutting work for this program? meaning cardio?
It works fine. The whole reason that 3 days is nice is so you can fit in other activities - generally it would be skill or sport specific (for those addicted to the gym - that can be a bummer if core work and carido don't fill the need). Don't go nuts on carido but a healthy portion of interval training is fine. This program really isn't a ball breaker the way I have it layed out (you can make it a lot worse for advanced trainees with a backbreaking loading cycle but that would crush everyone who isn't used to this style of lifting and they'd be frustrated and get no gains - look at the Smolov Squat cycle in my TOC if you want a challenge). In the gym you will certainly be pushed to your limit in weeks 3/4. You'll feel relatively good though overall, maybe just turning the corner on week 4 but that's when deloading comes around so happiness is there again.
swordfish151
New member
Madcow2 said:
Great! this program is worth the try!..ever thought about making a spreadsheet for it? meaning laying out all the lifts on paper....for us that are slow at learning this would probably be easier to understand and read..i think it would cut down on the questions you get a day!
I've toyed with it and actually made one but the issue then becomes that people will blindly follow it and not bother to understand it or monitor themselves in any way. One size never fits all to that degree. This program is as close to one size fits all as you can get for the most part but you still have to select weights. The range of people using this program is just too wide. I'd end up killing one guy and not stimulating the other. I might still do it sometime. I actually have one already mostly done but when I think about it, it will likely cause more problems than it will solve.
swordfish151
New member
Madcow2 said:
OK..this is what im going to do Friday (start of my workout week..got class tonight and tomorrow) from your article....
Volume Phase 4 weeks
Deloading Period 1 week
Intensity Phase 4 weeks
Mon......Volume Phase...........................................De load/Intensity Phase
Squat.......5x5................................... ..............................3x3
Bench.......1x5................................... ..............................1x3
Row.........1x5................................... ...............................1x3
Wed......Volume Phase...........................................De load/Intensity Phase
Squat.......5x5 with 15-20% less than Monday.................drop this lift
Deadlift.....5x5.................................. ...............................3x3
Military......5x5................................. ................................3x3
Pullups.......5x5................................. ...............................3x3
Fri.........Volume Phase...........................................De load/Intensity Phase
Squat........1x5.................................. ..............................1x3
Bench........5x5.................................. .............................3x3
Row...........5x5................................. ..............................3x3
*5x5 & 3x3 = warm up to working set weight
**1x5 & 1x3 = pyramid weights through 5x5 or 3x3 with the final set being target set weight
says to warm up to target weight..so say target weight for squat is 250lbs..so i warm up (how many sets?) to this weight and proceed with it for 5 sets of 5 reps of 250lbs...
The bench say its 225 target weigh..again warm up to 225? in this instance its a 1X5 so that means that i would have to pyramid the weight up until i reach 225? i think the 1X5 is unclear unless im right on what i just wrote...i know you said that the 5X5 and the 1X5 have different target weights? im inclear on that..if the 5X5 targeted wieght is 225 wouldnt the target weight for a 1X5 be the same?
No, do you really think just because you can get 5 reps with a weight that you can repeat that feat for another 4 sets back to back? Highly unlikely without a massive amount of rest between sets and even then a true record 1x5 won't allow for this.
So given that your maxes for 1x5 and 5x5 will be different, in order to scale to your maxes in the record weeks you will have different target weights for each set/ret variation in each of the preceeding weeks.
Here is an example based on a set of current maxes: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4652618&postcount=211
So given that your maxes for 1x5 and 5x5 will be different, in order to scale to your maxes in the record weeks you will have different target weights for each set/ret variation in each of the preceeding weeks.
Here is an example based on a set of current maxes: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4652618&postcount=211
swordfish151
New member
Madcow2 said:
I printed that one out as well...im not sure what you mean with your first statement..if i can do 225 for 5 reps, then...yeah i could do it for 4 more sets? why wouldnt you be able to ?? rest would be 1 1/2 min...if that...so are you saying that (could be misunderstanding here) that if my target weight for the 5X5 is 225 then i would do 225 for the first set and then start lowering the weight because i wouldnt be able to do the weight for 4 more sets?? If thats right then implying working weight..is incorrect...As i read that thread you posted...i noticed for example that your squat for the first week was 165 for Monday..so you did 5 sets of 5 reps w/165lbs correct? then for wednesday you lowered the weight to 140 (lowering the volume like you stated before) so you did 5 sets of 5 reps of 140 then Friday you upped the weight for your squat to 185 (above your target weight for Monday) but this is a 1X5 so you worked you way up to 185 for five reps...this thread is pretty self explanatory but im trying to understand your first statement..am i correct with the above mentioned>?
I'm getting the feeling you've never tried multiple sets of a single set record weight.
Find your absolute best, grinding, all-in, psyched set of 5. Wait a week and then try to do it for 5 sets of 5 with 1.5 minutes in between each set. You'll likely start missing reps on set number 2 and if not then definitely by set 3 unless you sandbagged your single set of 5 max.
Think about it. If you can barely manage 5 reps, how are you going to do 25 total reps with only a short break in between groups of 5? No one recovers from a serious record effort in a couple of minutes.
Find your absolute best, grinding, all-in, psyched set of 5. Wait a week and then try to do it for 5 sets of 5 with 1.5 minutes in between each set. You'll likely start missing reps on set number 2 and if not then definitely by set 3 unless you sandbagged your single set of 5 max.
Think about it. If you can barely manage 5 reps, how are you going to do 25 total reps with only a short break in between groups of 5? No one recovers from a serious record effort in a couple of minutes.
swordfish151
New member
Madcow2 said:
I think im confusing myself...ok...so a 5x5 with WORKING weight is??? Detailed example of lets say Squat....M working weight is 225 ....IS 225 the weight you use for all 5 sets? if no...then its NOT working weight..but pyramid right? W working weight is 185 (less...since i noticed you dropped it...of course you couldnt lif the same twice in same week..i understand that part) is 185 the WORKING weight for all 5 sets...if no..then its really not "working weight" but you have to pyramid the weight downward....right...
swordfish151 said:
Fuck man - you're killing me.
Monday (this is working set weight)
warm up
225 x 5
225 x 5
225 x 5
225 x 5
225 x 5
Wednesday (this is working set weight based as a % of Monday's)
warm up
185 x 5
185 x 5
185 x 5
185 x 5
185 x 5
Friday (this is a pyramid)
warm up
150 x 5
170 x 5
190 x 5
215 x 5
230 x 5
Now if your 1x5 max is 300 and your 5x5 max is 280 this might be week 1. Week 2 would be higher in all sets. Week 3 would be your maxes in the first sentence of this paragraph. Week 4 would be an increment above if you made all your lifts.
Next cycle, week 3 is ideally an increment above whatever records you established in this cycle.
Note: do not read too much into the numbers above or % being used, I just threw numbers down. Establish your estimated or actual current 5 rep maxes, estimate 5x5 maxes as a bit less, put them at week 3 and back out the target weights for the initial weeks (start lighter than you believe you need to as you can always add weeks but you can't bring the weight down in the middle of it or hold it constant the whole time). Adjust as needed each week based on how easy/hard the previous was.
swordfish151
New member
Madcow2 said:
NOW i got it!
Way too much. Even the novice version. He need to spend some time learning the lifts. Have him squat, bench, dead, row, press overhead etc.. for a few months and then start pushing harder. Read the Novice 5x5 and Glenn Pendlay/Ripptoe's beginner squat program. Once he learns the lifts this will take him for at least a year and maybe 2.
Madcow,
I understand the principle behind the dual factor theory - how the loading period is over a few weeks and the deloading period is over a week or two as opposed to the single factor theory where the load is over a day and the rest is over the next few days.
However, what I don't understand is WHY the dual factor theory is better. What is the science behind why the dual factor theory builds more muscle and produces greater gains in strength than the single factor theory?
Also, the dual factor theory has you train through DOMS? Right? What if the muscle is so sore that you are unable to complete a full rep properly?
I understand the principle behind the dual factor theory - how the loading period is over a few weeks and the deloading period is over a week or two as opposed to the single factor theory where the load is over a day and the rest is over the next few days.
However, what I don't understand is WHY the dual factor theory is better. What is the science behind why the dual factor theory builds more muscle and produces greater gains in strength than the single factor theory?
Also, the dual factor theory has you train through DOMS? Right? What if the muscle is so sore that you are unable to complete a full rep properly?
It's not a matter of better, it's a matter of how the body actually works and adapts. There is a demonstratable and proven fatigue component and single factor simply doesn't address it. I mean, it's a nice clean logic that you are going to progress from workout to workout and you time your supercompensation wave optimally but if that's not the way the body actually works it's a nice tidy package of logic that doesn't fit. I wish it did - all you'd have to do is go in the gym and work hard then wait the appropriate time and go back. We'd probably be able to pin down the time almost perfectly by regressing loads on recovery times for each bodypart. Unfortunately, that's not really what's going on despite it's intellecutally attractive neat and tidy appeal. The body is the body, single and dual factor theories are merely attempting to explain what is happening and dual actually works in research and practice accross a complete range of subjects where single factor works only with beginners for the most part.
I mean, you look at the coaches and researchers who make their livelyhood training elite athletes and being at the cutting edge of their field. No one is really out there using supercompensation/single factor style programs. Don't think for one second that US Track & Field is doing a bodypart once per week from multiple angles or that the Bulgarian weightlifting team only hits the Clean and Jerk 1x per week (you'd be stunned by the volume and frequency with which they train the core lifts).
Single factor workouts can still work but the more experienced one gets the bigger the difference becomes. For example, the first time you have someone start doing deadlifts and squats they are going to blow up regardless of the program as long as it's somewhat reasonable. The difference between the best and decent is likely going to be insignificant for a while. Of course the longer they've been hammering at this stuff and the more acclimated they are to it, the more precise one needs to be in the application of a stimulus.
For someone who hasn't been lifting seriously for a few years or who is just starting out, or who is out of condition and getting back into it, a dual factor program will be a waste. I told a friend the other day who is getting back into training and wanted to know when he would need to start applying periodization and dual factor type methodologies. I told him to wait until he's not gaining anymore. He's doing great right now - why screw with it. He's not leaving anything on the table. Even after he starts to get stale, I'll probably have him take a light 2 week period and then start lower and scale back up. This will probably last him at least 6 months as he hadn't trained seriously in years.
Now as for DOMS, a proper program won't have you getting sore workout to workout on a consistent basis. Maybe when you first transition into a new program or have a particularly strenuous day but not on any type of consistent basis do most lifters get sore. It's really a product of low frequency training and there are inherent issues (a nice way of saying bad) using this. So a little bit of soreness is fine, you warm up and work through it (the blocks of stimuli are important and you wind up elongating or messing with the blocks/load if you don't get the work in - not the end of the world but not optimal). What you seem to be talking about is debilitating soreness, like where you can't extend your arm to pay at a toll booth. That's bad and can possibly injure you if you train. The best thing to do is do some stretching and some very light work to get blood flowing through the area and help it recovery (Active recovery).
Let me know if I left anything out or if you have another question. I can see that you are interested in learning so it's worthwhile.
I mean, you look at the coaches and researchers who make their livelyhood training elite athletes and being at the cutting edge of their field. No one is really out there using supercompensation/single factor style programs. Don't think for one second that US Track & Field is doing a bodypart once per week from multiple angles or that the Bulgarian weightlifting team only hits the Clean and Jerk 1x per week (you'd be stunned by the volume and frequency with which they train the core lifts).
Single factor workouts can still work but the more experienced one gets the bigger the difference becomes. For example, the first time you have someone start doing deadlifts and squats they are going to blow up regardless of the program as long as it's somewhat reasonable. The difference between the best and decent is likely going to be insignificant for a while. Of course the longer they've been hammering at this stuff and the more acclimated they are to it, the more precise one needs to be in the application of a stimulus.
For someone who hasn't been lifting seriously for a few years or who is just starting out, or who is out of condition and getting back into it, a dual factor program will be a waste. I told a friend the other day who is getting back into training and wanted to know when he would need to start applying periodization and dual factor type methodologies. I told him to wait until he's not gaining anymore. He's doing great right now - why screw with it. He's not leaving anything on the table. Even after he starts to get stale, I'll probably have him take a light 2 week period and then start lower and scale back up. This will probably last him at least 6 months as he hadn't trained seriously in years.
Now as for DOMS, a proper program won't have you getting sore workout to workout on a consistent basis. Maybe when you first transition into a new program or have a particularly strenuous day but not on any type of consistent basis do most lifters get sore. It's really a product of low frequency training and there are inherent issues (a nice way of saying bad) using this. So a little bit of soreness is fine, you warm up and work through it (the blocks of stimuli are important and you wind up elongating or messing with the blocks/load if you don't get the work in - not the end of the world but not optimal). What you seem to be talking about is debilitating soreness, like where you can't extend your arm to pay at a toll booth. That's bad and can possibly injure you if you train. The best thing to do is do some stretching and some very light work to get blood flowing through the area and help it recovery (Active recovery).
Let me know if I left anything out or if you have another question. I can see that you are interested in learning so it's worthwhile.
Mithrandir
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Friday is the end of week four, and I am sad to say, but i have been doing the 5x5 program wrong. I never did a pyramid, I just mirrored Monday and Friday...somtiems I had to drop weight, but I made sure I got it. I have made gains in the last four weeks, but I thikn I woul dhave made more gains had I done the program correctly to begin with.
Madcow, should I deload then take a few weeks of moderate training the start the program again but using the NOVICE routine?! I wanted to do this program this summer again...what should I do??? please help
ALso, mid through I was not going low enough for squats...I can no longer do 275..I dropped 60 pounds...did this mess up my gains?
I have not gained enough weight, am I not eating enough, fuck I eat alot...
My chest does not grow?? it is bigger than it was a month ago, but not much stronger??! b/c I did the program wrong?
man I need help
Madcow, should I deload then take a few weeks of moderate training the start the program again but using the NOVICE routine?! I wanted to do this program this summer again...what should I do??? please help
ALso, mid through I was not going low enough for squats...I can no longer do 275..I dropped 60 pounds...did this mess up my gains?
I have not gained enough weight, am I not eating enough, fuck I eat alot...
My chest does not grow?? it is bigger than it was a month ago, but not much stronger??! b/c I did the program wrong?
man I need help
Okay - at this point we're turning this guy's thread on overtraining/doms and training theory into a 5x5 consultation and teaching thread.
mithrandir - would you mind reposting the above in my 5x5 thread and I'll answer it there.
There's too many of these 5x5 questions everywhere and if they are all in the same thread it works out a lot better. My thread is the first one I check and I don't feel like I'm killing someone elses when I reply so if we can shift that portion over there it would be better for all.
mithrandir - would you mind reposting the above in my 5x5 thread and I'll answer it there.
There's too many of these 5x5 questions everywhere and if they are all in the same thread it works out a lot better. My thread is the first one I check and I don't feel like I'm killing someone elses when I reply so if we can shift that portion over there it would be better for all.
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