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Does Good Come From God?

Nobody thinks he's bad, we've always thought he was smug, though.

And not to pick nits but Java isn't posting what he KNOWS. He's posting what he BELIEVES. Atheism is a BELIEF system (not a religion, too informal for that) but it contains certain basic premises and precepts. Not FACTS. Facts are concrete, provable, undeniable. From a factual perspective, atheism can not be proven any more than theism can be :whatever: (see points at bottom of post for WHY).

Honestly, Java is no different than someone who relates 3/4s of their posts to Joseph Smith and Mormonism, the other who relates their posts to Jesus Christ and the Gospel, or if I were to manage to relate 3/4s of my posts to Wicca and the Gods and Goddesses I revere :whatever:

The UNARGUABLE Fact is That Java Can No More DISPROVE the Existence of the G-O-D or (ANY God/dess) Than I Can PROVE Their Existence. Period.
It's called the Argument from Ignorance (or evidence of absence, whichever suits you more). They're both based on inherently flawed, rhetorical logic arguments, mental masturbation, nothing more. Neither premise is valid empirical evidence :whatever:

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Evidence of absence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Actually, atheism is a null value...
 
Do me a favor, would you. PLEASE stop trying to turn polytheistically based spirituality, particularly when you're moving into tribal territory where you have spiritual intermediaries like shamans, into RELIGION.

You don't know shit about shamanism (because you can read books until words spill out of your ears, but shamanism can only be understood experientially, period) or the spirit world, or the spiritual relationship that exists between the natural world and nature spirits and humanity. Trying to draw parallels between, say, Roman Catholics and any tribal spiritual beliefs is like trying to compare apples and a steak. The only thing they have in common is they are both nourishment, THAT'S IT.

The only thing "non organized spiritual practices" (for lack of a better catch all term) and mainstream religion is that they both hold reverence for something that is experienced outside what can be perceived by the five senses, THAT'S IT.

You're an atheist, glad you found a way to categorize you life experience. But just because you've never had any experience that has given you ANY sense that there is more to the world that just what you can see/feel/hear/taste/smell doesn't mean the world is that flat and 3-dimensional for everyone.

Frankly, Java, you proselytize worse than any Born Again Christian I've ever met. You're just as confident you're right as they are, but the truth is when you strip things down to brass tacks you're operating on just as much faith as they are, so give it a break.
Atheism is a null value...it's no more a belief system than not believing in Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy?

Greece and Rome...read some actual history instead of your indoctrination religious texts about polytheism and how wonderful the gods are.... How about Aztec polytheism...nothing wrong with human sacrifice...That is essentially the heart of christianity and other religions..they all love sacrificing innocents to their gods. I know a thing or two about wiccan beliefs and that blood magic is considered especially powerful...

I'm sure that I could do some LSD and have an "experience" but it doesn't make it real or "spiritual" (whatever that means); It's simply a drug that changes brain chemistry leading to hallucinations. Likewise, just because you had an emotional reaction to something doesn't make you enlightened...Charles Manson is "enlightened" in a psychotic way.
 
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most heads of congregations do live modest lifestyles.

Sure, you can creatively define "major religious figure" to target an affluent subset, but they are only a tiny sliver of the entire collection.

Of course, that's like lumping all corporate executives in with the Wall Street bailouts; The vast majority will never get that kind of bailout and those without the resources to pay for lobbyists end up paying the actual corporate tax rate as opposed to the lobbyist adjusted rate. At least Wall Street executives don't claim they follow the path of a homeless dude that told his followers to forsake all material possessions and their families to follow him..tax free....That's a nice scam..

Back when I worked for the prosecutor we had "pastor pants" go through our system a number of times...he exposed himself to children at a park...two women identified him in a lineup as the guy masturbating in front of them at the mall and he was arrested for solicitation of prostitution and DUI...he claimed he was witnessing to the prostitutes, at 3:00 AM, he was drunk as a skunk. His congregation, that paid for his half million dollar house, top notch defence attorney, and brand new cadillac supported him at every trial. He is a local pastor with no education in theology...without a national platform...He's just good at manipulating poor people into giving him there money and support ... that's sad.
 
REFUGIO, Texas — Investigators say a man has died while in the act of raping an elderly South Texas woman.

The Refugio County Sheriff's Office identifies the man as 53-year-old Isabel Chavelo Gutierrez. Sheriff's Sgt. Gary Wright says the incident happened June 2 after he rode two miles by bicycle from his home to that of his 77-year-old victim in the tiny coastal community of Tivoli.

He says the man, weighing between 230 and 250 pounds, sneaked into the woman's house and raped her at knifepoint. During the attack, he said he wasn't feeling well, rolled over and died. His body was sent to the Nueces County medical examiner in Corpus Christi for autopsy.

Gutierrez was a registered sexual offender on parole from a sentence for aggravated sexual assault and indecency with a child.



Man dies while raping elderly Texas woman - US news - Crime & courts - msnbc.com
 
java you gave one example of a bad apple, and I know there are more. there are also a lot of great pastors doing great things for community and world. right now as a church we are building a house for a widow and her kids. How cool is that.
 
Of course, that's like lumping all corporate executives in with the Wall Street bailouts; The vast majority will never get that kind of bailout and those without the resources to pay for lobbyists end up paying the actual corporate tax rate as opposed to the lobbyist adjusted rate. At least Wall Street executives don't claim they follow the path of a homeless dude that told his followers to forsake all material possessions and their families to follow him..tax free....That's a nice scam..

Back when I worked for the prosecutor we had "pastor pants" go through our system a number of times...he exposed himself to children at a park...two women identified him in a lineup as the guy masturbating in front of them at the mall and he was arrested for solicitation of prostitution and DUI...he claimed he was witnessing to the prostitutes, at 3:00 AM, he was drunk as a skunk. His congregation, that paid for his half million dollar house, top notch defence attorney, and brand new cadillac supported him at every trial. He is a local pastor with no education in theology...without a national platform...He's just good at manipulating poor people into giving him there money and support ... that's sad.

*their
 
Reasonable Faith: Question 115 - Santa Claus, Tooth Fairies, and God

There are sound arguments for God’s existence. Some of them are very good. But suppose it were not so; suppose all the arguments for God fail and there are no further good reasons to believe in God. What follows?—Atheism? It’s very important to realize that the answer to this question is NO. What follows is, at most, soft agnosticism.

When Does Absence of Evidence = Evidence of Absence? (Or, when is the inference from “I see none” to “there is none” valid?)
What I have said so far raises the question, When does the absence of evidence become evidence of absence? This is a good question because sometimes (but not always) the former implies the latter. Let’s start with some examples to work with.

Example 1. Elephants in the Room (Absence of Evidence = Evidence of Absence)
Someone asks, “Are there any elephants in the room?” After looking about and seeing none, I say, “No, I see none. There are no elephants in the room.”

The inference from “I see none” to “There are none” in this example is justified. With respect to elephants in this room, I’m not agnostic; rather, I positively affirm: There are no elephants in the room. In this case, absence of elephants in the room is evidence of their absence. But this inference doesn’t hold for Example 2.

Example 2. The Grand Canyon Fly (Absence of Evidence ≠ Evidence of Absence)
We’re standing atop the Grand Canyon and someone asks, “Is there a fly way down there?” After a quick glance I say, “No, I see none. There is no fly down there.”

As in the last example we move from “I see none” to “There is none”—but unlike the last example the conclusion is unjustified. Agnosticism regarding the fly is the appropriate response here. So in the Elephant Example we don’t have to be agnostics, but in the Grand Canyon Fly Example we do. Why? Notice that it is not the relative size of the object which creates the difference (The zookeeper might have asked you on your zoo trip, “Do you think an elephant is in the cage in the next room?” to which your reply might be agnosticism: “I have no idea. Maybe.”)

The salient difference between these two examples has entirely to do with your epistemic situation — which is, roughly, the extent and limits of your ability to know something through your primary sources of knowing (i.e. perception, memory, introspection, testimony, etc.) — and the fact that only in one situation (Elephants in the Room) do we expect to have knowledge which we lack. My epistemic situation regarding knowing whether an elephant is in the room is quite good, while my epistemic situation regarding knowing whether a fly resides at the bottom of the Grand Canyon is quite poor. Why? When are we in an epistemically good situation in order to say, “There is no X”? What conditions have to be met? At least two. In the absence of evidence of an object O you may deny that O exists only if these Criteria are met:

Evidence Expectation Criterion. If an object O existed, then we would expect there to be evidence for it.

Knowledge Expectation Criterion. If there were evidence of object O, then we would expect to have knowledge of the evidence.

In short, in the absence of evidence, we can deny the existence of something O only if we should expect to possess evidence sufficient to know that O exists but in fact lack it.

Some Examples: Tooth Fairies, Leprechauns, Santa Claus, Teapots, and Invisible Objects
Atheists claim they don’t need to disprove God for the same reason they don’t need to disprove the existence of Tooth Fairies, leprechauns, and Santa Claus. The problem with the comparison with the last two items is that, while our epistemic situation regarding God doesn’t always satisfy the Evidence Expectation and Knowledge Expectation Criteria, our epistemic situation regarding leprechauns and Santa Claus does — we can, and do, disprove them all the time; it’s just that there are few, if any, people arguing for their existence so we’re never called upon to give those reasons. If Santa existed we should expect to see, but don’t, lots of evidence of that fact, including warehouses at the North Pole, a large sleigh, and so forth; similarly, were there biologically tiny human beings on this planet we should expect to see, but don’t, their evidence: miniature villages, waste products, the bones of their deceased — evidence similar to what we have for mice, hamsters and other small critters. If there were more people today who made a case for leprechauns and Santa Claus then it would be entirely appropriate for us to enter into dialogue with them, giving reasons for their non-existence.

At this point an atheist might object that the Tooth Fairy is different from leprechauns and Santa Claus because she’s invisible. (Is she invisible in the story?) Suppose she is invisible. According to the tale she collects teeth left under children’s pillows leaving behind a reward (usually money). Evidence we should expect to see if she existed then would be money left behind, stolen teeth, etc. Do we find such evidence? Well, no we don’t, but we would expect to if she existed. So, even the Tooth Fairy satisfies the Evidence Expectation and Knowledge Expectation Criteria. So because we lack evidence of her, we say she doesn’t exist (sorry kids!).

Suppose the atheist agrees that the reason why we deny Tooth Fairies, leprechauns and Santa Claus is because we do have evidence for their absence. He might nonetheless insist that the situation is significantly different for other objects which are causally isolated from us. A case in point is Russell’s famous teapot which circles about the sun, an object which is (for the most part) causally isolated from us. Do we need to be agnostic about it? Can we say it doesn’t exist? I think we know it doesn’t exist because it wasn’t put there by the Russian or American astronauts; and we know that matter in the universe does not self-organize into teapot shapes. So really, we have a great deal of evidence that Russell’s teacup doesn’t exist; and since our discussion is confined to cases where we infer the non-existence of something simply on the basis of absence of evidence for it, the example is irrelevant.
 
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Hey preachylou, what happens if you get to your deathbed and there is no afterlife, no god, no heaven, etc? Would that shock you? Would you be like "omg wtf"?
 
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