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Arnold'sApprentice
Guest
im not happy with my shoulder development using just OP. Would you go for x2 sets of Upright rows or lat raises to emphasise the medial head a little more?
D
Debaser
Guest
Couple quick questions first:
1. What are your stats?
2. How much weight do you overhead press?
The reason I ask is a lot of the time people aren't impressed with their shoulders when they're really not underdeveloped, they're still in proportion with the rest of them. I.E. you won't have cannonball delts while weighing 140 lbs.
I bet if you can overhead press 200 lbs or more you won't be disappointed with them. If you do already, I would do a higher rep set of rest-paused lateral raises. But if you can't overhead press huge weight, I would forget about the lat raises and concentrate more on increasing this poundage.
1. What are your stats?
2. How much weight do you overhead press?
The reason I ask is a lot of the time people aren't impressed with their shoulders when they're really not underdeveloped, they're still in proportion with the rest of them. I.E. you won't have cannonball delts while weighing 140 lbs.
I bet if you can overhead press 200 lbs or more you won't be disappointed with them. If you do already, I would do a higher rep set of rest-paused lateral raises. But if you can't overhead press huge weight, I would forget about the lat raises and concentrate more on increasing this poundage.
A
Arnold'sApprentice
Guest
My op is about 70 kilograms for 4 reps. I will take your advice and stick with op for a while longer...what you said makes a lot of sense but i wouldnt mind freal delts that are out of proportion to the rest of me 
Debaser, I get your point. If I could OHP 200 pounds, I'm sure my delts would look a lot better than they do now.
However, wouldn't adding someting for the side delts help us to get those great delts just a little quicker? Wouldn't adding some kind of accessory exercise at least speed the process along a little bit?
However, wouldn't adding someting for the side delts help us to get those great delts just a little quicker? Wouldn't adding some kind of accessory exercise at least speed the process along a little bit?
Of course you can do lateral raises. There's nothing magical about overhead presses.
If a compound movement isn't getting you the growth you want it's completely okay to add an isolation. You don't have to have some minimum poundage in a compound to "qualify" to add an isolation move.
If a compound movement isn't getting you the growth you want it's completely okay to add an isolation. You don't have to have some minimum poundage in a compound to "qualify" to add an isolation move.
D
Debaser
Guest
Not so fast, casual. Are you telling me that if you could only bench press 100 lbs, and you were unhappy with your chest development, you should start doing flyes? No need, stick with the bench and your chest will fill out.
Arnold, I think you should stick with the overhead presses, and you will definiately see the development you want. 70 kg x 4 isn't a ton of weight (no offense, of course); I guarantee once you get to 100 kg you'll have impressive delts. I think presses are a much more productive movement and should be focused upon.
Also, personally lateral raises feel unnatural for my shoulders...I know a few guys that said lateral raises damaged their shoulders. I'm not sure if it would be an unsafe movement for you, but it's something else to consider.
Arnold, I think you should stick with the overhead presses, and you will definiately see the development you want. 70 kg x 4 isn't a ton of weight (no offense, of course); I guarantee once you get to 100 kg you'll have impressive delts. I think presses are a much more productive movement and should be focused upon.
Also, personally lateral raises feel unnatural for my shoulders...I know a few guys that said lateral raises damaged their shoulders. I'm not sure if it would be an unsafe movement for you, but it's something else to consider.
I'm just saying, for bodybuilding purposes, a motion is just a means to an end, the end being bigger muscles.
There are many reasons to do compound movements. Strength carryover, convenience, efficiency, and balance are some. But better growth is not one of them.
All that really matters is relative tension on tissue. For instance, a lot of guys do rear delt raises because they often don't get covered adequately by any of the common compounds.
I'm not saying drop the OHP entirely; I'm a big fan. I'm just saying, it could be that his biomechanics favor front delt pressing over side delt. Or who knows. But point being, adding 2 sets of side raises won't kill, and it may help round out the middle fibers.
Actually, along those lines, I'd try to find a lateral raise machine if you can. Standing DB lateral raises kinda suck; there's too much tension at the top and none in the middle. A good machine CAM system with even resistance would be better.
There are many reasons to do compound movements. Strength carryover, convenience, efficiency, and balance are some. But better growth is not one of them.
All that really matters is relative tension on tissue. For instance, a lot of guys do rear delt raises because they often don't get covered adequately by any of the common compounds.
I'm not saying drop the OHP entirely; I'm a big fan. I'm just saying, it could be that his biomechanics favor front delt pressing over side delt. Or who knows. But point being, adding 2 sets of side raises won't kill, and it may help round out the middle fibers.
Actually, along those lines, I'd try to find a lateral raise machine if you can. Standing DB lateral raises kinda suck; there's too much tension at the top and none in the middle. A good machine CAM system with even resistance would be better.
This stuff just kills me...
Do what YOU feel is necessary for YOU to grow.
For years I did two movements for shoulders.
1) Seated Overhead presses.
This was my main exercises and I used different reps, sets, rest periods, etc...
2) Laterals.
I would use dbells, cables, as well as different reps, sets, rest periods, etc...
Take my advice for what it is worth...I'm not going to sit here and preach, like others will, that my advice is the BEST. I encourage you to find people who have what you want...and talk to THEM about how they got it.
B True
Do what YOU feel is necessary for YOU to grow.
For years I did two movements for shoulders.
1) Seated Overhead presses.
This was my main exercises and I used different reps, sets, rest periods, etc...
2) Laterals.
I would use dbells, cables, as well as different reps, sets, rest periods, etc...
Take my advice for what it is worth...I'm not going to sit here and preach, like others will, that my advice is the BEST. I encourage you to find people who have what you want...and talk to THEM about how they got it.
B True
b fold the truth said:
Not to be a smart-ass, but since AA's asking for help, he obviously doesn't know everything that's necessary to grow as he'd like.
I also don't understand why that "stuff" kills you, Clint. Are you talking about a [rather pleasant] disagreement over benefits of lateral raises?
I would hope not, but might this go back to what I so often read here, that guys with little experience "can't know much" and should just be quiet?
Not to put words in your mouth, but regardless of who says it, I can't agree with that idea. I think for people with and without lots of experience, engaging in argumentation is a good way to learn. When I see someone arguing about this exercise or that routine, 7, maybe 8 times in 10 I see someone hungry to understand all this better.
That certainly can't replace getting in the gym and moving iron. Anyone who suggests otherwise is nuts. But I think you might have the wrong idea about some of these disagreements...a lot of it is productive, and challenges the mind. Not all has to be "so and so sucks a fat one!" and such
NWinters said:
I gotta ask:
If that's a dig at the whole argument thing I was talking about, how is what you're saying different?
What you're asserting now is an argument Nick: "Clint's a big mo-fo and has good delts, so he must know what he's doing. I listen to people who know what they're doing, so I listen to Clint."
That was part of my point. People get the wrong idea about what an "argument" means, but it can be good shit for exchanging ideas.
NWinters
New member
I was just making a simple point, as was Clint. Clint posted two simple exercises that seems to work for alot of people. Now what I don not understand is why you think im arguing? I just dont see why people get offended when somone, or anybody with a ton of experience trys to help. It often turns into a freakin science project instead of a simple answer.
NWinters said:
I hear ya. That's my bad.
Yes. Things CAN get too complicated, and fast. I understand that only too well
What I should've said is that "my" definition of arguing/arguments/etc. is different than most people's.
I still don't know exactly why, but in school I was a philosophy minor; and after spending a lot of time around logicians, I came to accept their definition of what argumentation means. Their meaning is different than the connotation most people attribute to it.
Most people hear the word and think it means pointless bitching and fighting. I hear it, or think of it, and all that comes to mind is something much more sterile, basically something like "If A is B, and B is C, then A is also C."
Tweakle said:
Heh. You get a lotta mileage outta that 14 inch HITer's arm thing
It's sad, but true. For all the time I followed HIT precepts, I think the only reason I could get past 18" was because I was blessed in the arm department.
In fairness to "HIT," though, many of the routines I tried all those years ago were conceived by guys on the fringe. I think one could do considerably better if they followed Max. Bob Whelan or some of Dr. Ken's training.
NWinters
New member
guldukat said:
I hear ya. That's my bad.
Yes. Things CAN get too complicated, and fast. I understand that only too well
What I should've said is that "my" definition of arguing/arguments/etc. is different than most people's.
I still don't know exactly why, but in school I was a philosophy minor; and after spending a lot of time around logicians, I came to accept their definition of what argumentation means. Their meaning is different than the connotation most people attribute to it.
Most people hear the word and think it means pointless bitching and fighting. I hear it, or think of it, and all that comes to mind is something much more sterile, basically something like "If A is B, and B is C, then A is also C."
I understand you better now. I think most people around here expect simple answers anyway. People get impatient when they have to read a 2 page article when just one paragraph would suffice.
Tweakle
New member
How big are you exactly? I'm amazed that you managed to build any size if you followed the lunatic fringe HIT dogma (latter day HD or the cult of SuperSlow) so 18"+ is amazing. GJ.
I actually train closer to HIT than most people here but my bredrin do tend to live up to the sterotype of the annoying, opinionated novice. Pretty much all I read these days are the articles by Dr Ken, McRobert & Max Bob but I'm not too proud to admit I used to swallow down AJ's ranting as gospel. There's a couple of training years I'd love to have back!
BTW I think I read that you were in NC, I'm moving there next month so if you're anywhere near Raleigh and fancy a workout sometime lemmie know
I actually train closer to HIT than most people here but my bredrin do tend to live up to the sterotype of the annoying, opinionated novice. Pretty much all I read these days are the articles by Dr Ken, McRobert & Max Bob but I'm not too proud to admit I used to swallow down AJ's ranting as gospel. There's a couple of training years I'd love to have back!
BTW I think I read that you were in NC, I'm moving there next month so if you're anywhere near Raleigh and fancy a workout sometime lemmie know
No, not talking about that at all. I"m talking about how a few people on here seem to act like they know it all and that they have 'been there and done that.' A few people might just want to think about a few 'other' ideas once in a while and think that maybe some of he older crowd might know a thing or two.
And I said that...where?
I will admit that when I had went from 152 to 210 I thought that I knew it all. I now know that there is STILL so much information out there than what I already know. I try to learn something new every single day. Heck, I read about DC, HIT, etc...often to try and understand it and I DO understand the benefits about it. What gets to me is that so many of the people who rave about the benefits are simply not big...at all. They don't have what I want (very strong and big) so I don't see the results that I am looking for.
Read that again...I used no absolutes...I used the words 'so many of the people'... I leave room for the few who have done BIG things with it...
Yeah...I think that those words were incorrectly put into my mouth. I learn A LOT from this board. I feel NO need to argue with SERIOUSLY closed-minded people though who see ABSOLUTES and not the grey areas in the world of training. I am old enough and smart enough to understand that it simply isn't like that.
Originally posted by guldukat
That certainly can't replace getting in the gym and moving iron. Anyone who suggests otherwise is nuts. But I think you might have the wrong idea about some of these disagreements...a lot of it is productive, and challenges the mind. Not all has to be "so and so sucks a fat one!" and such
It CAN be productive...IF the ideas are presented as ideas. I see so much towards the top of this tread that is presented as FACT. A FACT is something that can not be proven wrong...period. I am living proof that some of the statements in the threads above are NOT FACT.
I often disagree with opinions produced by Dr. Ken as well as McRoberts because I don't see freaky size or strength from either of them. I think that both of them are better than the average trainee...but after THAT many years training...shouldn't they be? Dr. Ken does NOT look like he even lifts weights. I'd think that after some 40 odd years of training...I surely would.
The paragraph above is opinion only, and I mean that. I also understand that my opinion is not fact either...it is opinion. I would like to see people here on Elite express things and include things like 'in my opinion...' before they state what they believe to be FACT. If not...this forum on Elite will turn into something that none of us (surely) want. The few veterans of Elite will leave or quit posting and offering advice. I know that I surely will...
Also...please do not call me "Clint" unless I know your name as well. The only people on Elite who respond to me by my REAL name are people who are my friends and have introduced themselves to me. I would prefer that you call me B Fold or B True...unless you would like to be called by your real name as well.
Thanks
B True
Tweakle said:
I'm 5'6", 235, 14% bodyfat right now. I'd been 244 and about as "lean" (haha) before the flu took me out of action for two weeks.
I should note two things, however:
1--I didn't follow lunatic fringe stuff
The vast majority of it was pretty reasonable. It was only around the time I started believing Mike Mentzer's "all lack of progress is overtraining" stuff that I was getting into a major wheel-spin, I think.2--Like I said, I have favorable genetics for developing certain things pretty quickly. I started out pretty small, but I was undernourished, 14 years old, and ran 6 miles a day...had I just chilled for a few more years, I probably would've had a build like my 49 year-old father does (18" calves, 16" arms sans training).
I understand. I remember being caught up by Jones' writing, too. It was nice as a relative beginner, and did teach me how to work pretty hard, but using those materials to berate others...*shrugs*.
BTW I think I read that you were in NC, I'm moving there next month so if you're anywhere near Raleigh and fancy a workout sometime lemmie know
I'm right outside Charlotte, which is near the SC border. It's been awhile since I've made it up to Raleigh...perhaps we could both meet halfway in Greensboro?
Seriously, if I pursue grad work up there, you gotta workout partner for a day.
As usual, be warned: this is long. You responded to me paragraph by paragraph, so I see it only proper to extend you the same courtesy.
Yes, but what I said still holds up: you're irritated when people who "know it all" argue with others, correct?
I understand what you mean, but I didn't see that the voice of experience was being poo-pooed here. Debaser said he put more faith in overheads than laterals, and Casual said laterals could be a good option.
It didn't seem as if either man was blowing off an older trainer, and with all of the "who knows?" and "personally, I..." I saw, I definitely didn't see evidence of know-it-alling in this thread.
That's why I was puzzled.
I do not think you said it maliciously at all, but:
I encourage you to find people who have what you want...and talk to THEM about how they got it.
That suggests the big, experienced trainer is the one to talk to. (A lot of times that's not a bad idea.) You don't come out and say it, but it's tacit approval that his advice is good if not the best.
At the same time, you note that "...what gets to [you] is that so many of the people who rave about the benefits are simply not big...at all." In short, you're irritated by these types.
Does that not suggest they should take a back seat to a bigger, more experienced lifter? You're no dummy...you wouldn't be annoyed unless you felt those guys should spend less time talking and more time listening, no?
I know you do.
We haven't talked much at all but I've read lots of your posts, including your every "Another Fun Sunday" thread. (I'm not a strongman competitor, and I've never even done the events, so I've rarely much to contribute.)
Point is, your interest in new things comes across. No one should challenge that.
At the risk of being repetitive, I know. This is just like math...you can get the same result by approaching from a no. of different directions. Also like math, there are certainly absolutes, but you're tired of people trying to state clear-cut rules where none exist. I understand that, too.
Again, however, I don't really see that exercised in this thread, so I'm back to being a bit confused. I only saw Debaser commenting that overhead presses were superior to laterals...well, I think that's definitely on the right track. I've yet to meet a guy who built great delts without presses; and working your press up to big poundages is certainly a pretty well-trod path to building big shoulders, too, right? (No guarantees there, but then, were any really given in this thread?)
As I said, regardless of who says it, I've seen that pop up several times on Elite.
Now, I shouldn't have ranted at your expense, but I did think you might take things in that direction. I remember how you indicated irritation with similar discussions couple of times in another thread:
"There comes a time when you have to stop talking about the weights and you have to wrap your hands around a cold piece of steel and give it Hell."
I thought you might go there again, and that's what brought the whole "value of argumentation" thing to mind.
By threads above do you mean posts in this thread? I honestly don't see what's said that you've disproven in getting big and strong.
I also certainly think argumentation's productive regardless of how humble the speaker is, and he/she can definitely argue facts (like disproving the Flat Earth theory). But that's neither here nor there, really.
I'd make a distinction between size and strength for these guys. Dr. Ken's extremely strong for his weight...not many 165 lbs. guys can curl near their bodyweight for reps, strictly press 245 for reps, or squat 405 ATF for 23.
But size...can't speak for McRobert, but Dr. Ken...
Yeah. That's always mystified me about the guy, too. Dr. Ken used to have an okay "stripper" body at ~195, and supposedly once reached a "solid 230 lbs., able to balance a pitcher of water on his chest," but God Bless him, I'm inclined to think he was a lot fatter at that weight.
Now, IF one was so inclined, it's not entirely fair to conclude "his training must be the weak link." We all know there are other factors at play. But his approach isn't the end-all, be-all either.
I think you're proposing a slippery slope here. If a handful of members aren't humble, pretty soon things will get bad, and the other First Ones will leave? Naw, it needn't be that bad. I think that's throwing the baby out with the bath water...for everyone here you don't like, there are probably, what, 10 that you do? More?
For over 500 posts (why they were cut in half a month ago, I don't know), my sig read: "Post by Sean." I certainly had no qualms putting my name out there. But with maybe a couple exceptions, no one ever picked up on that and called me "Sean" here so I just dropped it.
I see calling people by their given name as respectful, akin to a knight raising his visor in a salute. When I called you by your given name, I was doing what few did for me. Call it a salute.
If, however, that makes you uncomfortable under the circumstances, I suppose I understand. It's not what I'm accustomed to but in the same spirit, I'd be happy to call you whatever you wish me to.
b fold the truth said:
Yes, but what I said still holds up: you're irritated when people who "know it all" argue with others, correct?
I understand what you mean, but I didn't see that the voice of experience was being poo-pooed here. Debaser said he put more faith in overheads than laterals, and Casual said laterals could be a good option.
It didn't seem as if either man was blowing off an older trainer, and with all of the "who knows?" and "personally, I..." I saw, I definitely didn't see evidence of know-it-alling in this thread.
That's why I was puzzled.
I do not think you said it maliciously at all, but:
I encourage you to find people who have what you want...and talk to THEM about how they got it.
That suggests the big, experienced trainer is the one to talk to. (A lot of times that's not a bad idea.) You don't come out and say it, but it's tacit approval that his advice is good if not the best.
At the same time, you note that "...what gets to [you] is that so many of the people who rave about the benefits are simply not big...at all." In short, you're irritated by these types.
Does that not suggest they should take a back seat to a bigger, more experienced lifter? You're no dummy...you wouldn't be annoyed unless you felt those guys should spend less time talking and more time listening, no?
I know you do.
We haven't talked much at all but I've read lots of your posts, including your every "Another Fun Sunday" thread. (I'm not a strongman competitor, and I've never even done the events, so I've rarely much to contribute.)
Point is, your interest in new things comes across. No one should challenge that.
At the risk of being repetitive, I know. This is just like math...you can get the same result by approaching from a no. of different directions. Also like math, there are certainly absolutes, but you're tired of people trying to state clear-cut rules where none exist. I understand that, too.
Again, however, I don't really see that exercised in this thread, so I'm back to being a bit confused. I only saw Debaser commenting that overhead presses were superior to laterals...well, I think that's definitely on the right track. I've yet to meet a guy who built great delts without presses; and working your press up to big poundages is certainly a pretty well-trod path to building big shoulders, too, right? (No guarantees there, but then, were any really given in this thread?)
As I said, regardless of who says it, I've seen that pop up several times on Elite.
Now, I shouldn't have ranted at your expense, but I did think you might take things in that direction. I remember how you indicated irritation with similar discussions couple of times in another thread:
"There comes a time when you have to stop talking about the weights and you have to wrap your hands around a cold piece of steel and give it Hell."
I thought you might go there again, and that's what brought the whole "value of argumentation" thing to mind.
By threads above do you mean posts in this thread? I honestly don't see what's said that you've disproven in getting big and strong.
I also certainly think argumentation's productive regardless of how humble the speaker is, and he/she can definitely argue facts (like disproving the Flat Earth theory). But that's neither here nor there, really.
I'd make a distinction between size and strength for these guys. Dr. Ken's extremely strong for his weight...not many 165 lbs. guys can curl near their bodyweight for reps, strictly press 245 for reps, or squat 405 ATF for 23.
But size...can't speak for McRobert, but Dr. Ken...
Yeah. That's always mystified me about the guy, too. Dr. Ken used to have an okay "stripper" body at ~195, and supposedly once reached a "solid 230 lbs., able to balance a pitcher of water on his chest," but God Bless him, I'm inclined to think he was a lot fatter at that weight.
Now, IF one was so inclined, it's not entirely fair to conclude "his training must be the weak link." We all know there are other factors at play. But his approach isn't the end-all, be-all either.
I think you're proposing a slippery slope here. If a handful of members aren't humble, pretty soon things will get bad, and the other First Ones will leave? Naw, it needn't be that bad. I think that's throwing the baby out with the bath water...for everyone here you don't like, there are probably, what, 10 that you do? More?
For over 500 posts (why they were cut in half a month ago, I don't know), my sig read: "Post by Sean." I certainly had no qualms putting my name out there. But with maybe a couple exceptions, no one ever picked up on that and called me "Sean" here so I just dropped it.
I see calling people by their given name as respectful, akin to a knight raising his visor in a salute. When I called you by your given name, I was doing what few did for me. Call it a salute.
If, however, that makes you uncomfortable under the circumstances, I suppose I understand. It's not what I'm accustomed to but in the same spirit, I'd be happy to call you whatever you wish me to.
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PatsFan34 said:
That's kinda uncool dude.
I know since it's the internet it's not going to make anybody lose sleep, but as I just finished saying a min. ago, I didn't call BFold by his given name flippantly.
Nope. I was raised to look people in the eye and refer to them by name as a matter of respect, for myself and to the person I'm talking to. Using a given name on the 'net is me saying to someone, "I take you more seriously than our jokey nicknames. I recognize you as a person in the REAL world."
Still, when in Rome, we do as the Romans do. Names are an important thing to most people, so we show more respect by honoring their wishes.
D
Debaser
Guest
b fold the truth said:
guldukat: Please forgive me. It is VERY difficult for me to sit in the computer chair at the moment, I do have a pretty badly torn left hamstring which makes it very uncomfortable for me to sit down in a chair for very long.
I do appreciate your very lengthy response and I will do my best to reply as soon as I can. I am in quite a lot of pain at the moment.
I believe that we look at things (from a non-training perspective at least) to the same degree and I do agree with you on nearly every point that you have made. I seriously do mean that. I also appreciate so much how you point out my good points yet make your own. Many people do NOT do this when they make their points (I've been guilty of this before, but try my best to do better now).
There isn't much that you posted above that I find to be incorrect. What my main point is...I find most of what I said to be correct as well. I would like to see peole have the same attitude towards training and giving advice about training.
In threads above...I've seen people make reference that one should basically NOT do dbell laterals right now unless their shoulder press is strong enough. I just don't buy into that. OHP is a BIG concern to me and I have done them since my first week in the gym, so you know that I believe in the importance of them...but I've also done a lot of other movements for shoulders...so I don't see anything wrong with them at all...at any stage of your lifting.
Remember in the quote that you copied above about wrapping your hands around a cold piece of steel...was NOT said by me...it was said by a friend of mine named Terry Long. He won Mr. Kentucky in bodybuilding in the 1980's as a middleweight...and drug free. He also trained(trains) in his basement, which I think is pretty cool. I've had the pleasure of training with him when I was younger (at his home).
I do feel that one should look for the people that have what you want...and talk to them. I've spent hours (even tonight) emailing back and forth with Jesse Marunde about training ideas, as well as Steve Kirit. They both have what I want. Jesse has been a Pro Strongman for two years and has placed top 5 each year and went to the World's Strongest Man contest. Steve Kirit has won the US Pro Nationals and went to the Worlds for the past two years. Last year he tore his hamstring (like I just did) 5 weeks away from Nationals...and still won. They have what I want...so I'm going to do all that I can to learn everything that I can from them. Hopefully you see my point and I think that it can be taken (at least a good deal of the time) both about life as well as training.
Please...I made this longer than I intended to. My pain meds have made me a little loopy, so forgive me if this sounds really strange...I feel pretty strange at the moment.
Sean...thanks a lot for explaining the name thing. I hope that you didn't take my post to be mean at all, it wasn't meant to be that way AT ALL. I didn't take your last several posts that way either.
Thanks again...
B True
I do appreciate your very lengthy response and I will do my best to reply as soon as I can. I am in quite a lot of pain at the moment.
I believe that we look at things (from a non-training perspective at least) to the same degree and I do agree with you on nearly every point that you have made. I seriously do mean that. I also appreciate so much how you point out my good points yet make your own. Many people do NOT do this when they make their points (I've been guilty of this before, but try my best to do better now).
There isn't much that you posted above that I find to be incorrect. What my main point is...I find most of what I said to be correct as well. I would like to see peole have the same attitude towards training and giving advice about training.
In threads above...I've seen people make reference that one should basically NOT do dbell laterals right now unless their shoulder press is strong enough. I just don't buy into that. OHP is a BIG concern to me and I have done them since my first week in the gym, so you know that I believe in the importance of them...but I've also done a lot of other movements for shoulders...so I don't see anything wrong with them at all...at any stage of your lifting.
Remember in the quote that you copied above about wrapping your hands around a cold piece of steel...was NOT said by me...it was said by a friend of mine named Terry Long. He won Mr. Kentucky in bodybuilding in the 1980's as a middleweight...and drug free. He also trained(trains) in his basement, which I think is pretty cool. I've had the pleasure of training with him when I was younger (at his home).
I do feel that one should look for the people that have what you want...and talk to them. I've spent hours (even tonight) emailing back and forth with Jesse Marunde about training ideas, as well as Steve Kirit. They both have what I want. Jesse has been a Pro Strongman for two years and has placed top 5 each year and went to the World's Strongest Man contest. Steve Kirit has won the US Pro Nationals and went to the Worlds for the past two years. Last year he tore his hamstring (like I just did) 5 weeks away from Nationals...and still won. They have what I want...so I'm going to do all that I can to learn everything that I can from them. Hopefully you see my point and I think that it can be taken (at least a good deal of the time) both about life as well as training.
Please...I made this longer than I intended to. My pain meds have made me a little loopy, so forgive me if this sounds really strange...I feel pretty strange at the moment.
Sean...thanks a lot for explaining the name thing. I hope that you didn't take my post to be mean at all, it wasn't meant to be that way AT ALL. I didn't take your last several posts that way either.
Thanks again...
B True
Debaser: You should read all of my posts on this thread again...and TRY to really let it sink in. Read it with a calm head and think about what I am saying. I would not have said it if I didn't TRULY believe it in my heart. I would really think that would mean a lot to you...seriously.
If it doesn't mean a lot to you...well then...I guess that is fine too. I think that it takes a bigger man to say what is in his heart and admit that his opinion or side of the debate...isn't a fact. I've already said it, numerous times.
B True
If it doesn't mean a lot to you...well then...I guess that is fine too. I think that it takes a bigger man to say what is in his heart and admit that his opinion or side of the debate...isn't a fact. I've already said it, numerous times.
B True
my thoughts on this are the same as with any boypart you are trying to bring up, the massive guy in the gym is not always the best one for advice, although he can be, as maybe he grew really easy and what worked for him wont work for you. In B's case, he did grow pretty easily compared to guys like me, but at the same time he still put on way more size then a guy not using juice should ever have been able to
I prefer to check with guys that dont have great genetics, and have a hard time building mass, as they obviously tried a lot of things to find what works. In my case I have naturally very narrow shoulders, and a hard to capping my delts. But over the years I have brought out the width to the point where my shoulders are very wide. And in my case, just overhead pressing did not do the trick, and I got very strong on it, 115lb dumbells for 5x5, or military press 255lbs for 5x5. My shoulders only grow when I do a heavy pressing motion, followed by side laterals, generally done in down the rack fashion. I know everyone is different, but thats ALL that worked for my shoulders, nothing else
I prefer to check with guys that dont have great genetics, and have a hard time building mass, as they obviously tried a lot of things to find what works. In my case I have naturally very narrow shoulders, and a hard to capping my delts. But over the years I have brought out the width to the point where my shoulders are very wide. And in my case, just overhead pressing did not do the trick, and I got very strong on it, 115lb dumbells for 5x5, or military press 255lbs for 5x5. My shoulders only grow when I do a heavy pressing motion, followed by side laterals, generally done in down the rack fashion. I know everyone is different, but thats ALL that worked for my shoulders, nothing else
B True,
My good man, that was downright moving. I knew you had heart, but truly, wow--that's awesome.
I know exactly where you're coming from, and at this point, just want you to take care of that hamstring, biggun.
I won't keep you--between the pain and the meds I know you want to chill--but I appreciate everything you said. I wish the circumstances were more cheery but regardless, it's good to make your acquaintance, period.
That's enough maudlin outta me All this talk, and I never gave Arnold's Apprentice a lick of advice! *shakes head at self*
My good man, that was downright moving. I knew you had heart, but truly, wow--that's awesome.
I know exactly where you're coming from, and at this point, just want you to take care of that hamstring, biggun.
I won't keep you--between the pain and the meds I know you want to chill--but I appreciate everything you said. I wish the circumstances were more cheery but regardless, it's good to make your acquaintance, period.
That's enough maudlin outta me
All this talk, and I never gave Arnold's Apprentice a lick of advice! *shakes head at self*PatsFan34 said:
LOL--you're right, bro. I get quite carried away sometimes.
And good guess: I was an Eng. major. I proudly display my BA in a place of great honor, in the bathroom above the toilet.
...ok, not really, but since I don't wanna teach, it's only about that useful
NWinters
New member
guldukat said:
LOL--you're right, bro. I get quite carried away sometimes.
And good guess: I was an Eng. major. I proudly display my BA in a place of great honor, in the bathroom above the toilet.
...ok, not really, but since I don't wanna teach, it's only about that useful
There we are!!!! See, a family we are!!!!!
c3bodybuilding
New member
Ok, who was slipping the clomid into everyones drinks?!
A
Arnold'sApprentice
Guest
thanks everyone for your input.
the reason why i addressed this to debaser is because he knows everything about training the DRUG FREE,genetically average man.
I also have NEVER sen him flame anyone and he offers FREE advice- this despite the hatred he gets from those who are jealous of his knowledge and fear his beliefs
the reason why i addressed this to debaser is because he knows everything about training the DRUG FREE,genetically average man.
I also have NEVER sen him flame anyone and he offers FREE advice- this despite the hatred he gets from those who are jealous of his knowledge and fear his beliefs
Arnold'sApprentice said:
B True
A
Arnold'sApprentice
Guest
obviously I should have pmed debaser as it is too contraversial to seek his opinion in public 
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