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well i think the main difference is how well it can cross the Blood brain barrier.spongebob said:
juve
New member
juicedpigtails said:
No, not really. Spongebob is on the right track. Think of nicotine gum/patches and cigarettes. It is almost impossible to become addicted to gum/patch, whereas cigarettes are much different.
Crack permeates membranes and saturates capilaries much faster than just intranasal administration calling not only for a quicker, but also less sustainable and much more reinforcing response.
Overall crack is the culprit to cocaine's addiction statistic and potential, even though the statistic itself is not high (something like only 11% of regular users become addicted and regular use was estimated to be 51 days of administration - think here). Heroin does not even occupy the same niche as far addiction and pathways of exerting its actions - heroin users are much more susceptible to addiction, one of the reasons being is the way it is administered (IV) yilding a quick and bioefficient response.
Ecstasy and meth don't even lie in the same category as coke - ecstatcy has a fraction of DA affinity of coke whereas meth is far greater than coke; by the same token most effects of coke are DA-mediated with some GABA/5-ht reinforcement, whereas meth and MDMA are almost purely 5-ht mediated.
Alcohol is by far worse in its negative connotations than any of the above especially given the amounts people consume
Optimus B
New member
exactly.juicedpigtails said:
just for clarification:
powdered cocaine (nasally administered, passes through the mucous membranes of the nasal cavity) = cocaine HCl, this is a polar compound, and doesn't enter the brain that quickly.
crack (smoked) = cocaine without the HCl molecule conjugated to it, this is less polar and can cross the BBB easier since it's more lipophillic.
spongebob
New member
juicedpigtails said:
correct. as stated since crack is smoked it crosses quicker. i was just implying that that property alone does not make crack more addictive than coke physically.
i believe the short lived greater intensity of crack, the duration of the high is what may drive its percieved higher addiction qualities.
you have to continually smoke crack every 20 min or so to maintain baseline. whereas you may only snort coke every hour or so to maintain baseline.
i guess what i am trying to answer is why do people believe crack to be more addictive than coke. but im no expert.
spongebob
New member
juve said:Ecstasy and meth don't even lie in the same category as coke - ecstatcy has a fraction of DA affinity of coke whereas meth is far greater than coke; by the same token most effects of coke are DA-mediated with some GABA/5-ht reinforcement, whereas meth and MDMA are almost purely 5-ht mediated.
Alcohol is by far worse in its negative connotations than any of the above especially given the amounts people consume
i have friends that are putting the coke down and replacing it with meth. much better drug as far as rec use but i believe much more addictive.
my reason is only an observation. people who use meth(amped up adderall) can really fucntion well of of it. so what i see happening is they use it as a crutch to get by daily routines. they can concentrate better, get more done and can maintain what appears to be a normal disposition around people. given that they are not hitting a line every hour.
i believe part of its addicition is attributed to those properties. people believe they can fucntion on it. eventually it catches up with them.
juve
New member
spongebob said:
Are you sure you're not talking of plain amphetamine? It is a rather rare practice to administer meth consistently for motivation/concentration purposes, although not unheard of - it is just too 'intense' for basic mundane functioning.
Problem with aderall is the mix of l-amp salts which exert most of their effects via periphery - not pleasant. Dexedrine (pure d-amp) though gets rave reviews on task completion/focus/drive.
spongebob
New member
juve said:Alcohol is by far worse in its negative connotations than any of the above especially given the amounts people consume
i think part of the problem is defining addiction. which i define strictly as the inability to stop usage.
so to me if a person drinks every day but maintains a job and somewhat normal life but CANT quit drinking. that person is just as addicitive as the crackhead living on the streets stealing lawnmowers out of peoples garages and pawning them.
spongebob
New member
juve said:
meth is prescribe by dr. for ADD.
and i agree with you about meth being to intense. i am talking about from the intial usage. first timers. they take it and like what it does for them thinking they can fucntion on it. i have a friend that is a fucntioning meth user. then ofcourse it becomes problematic for most, they eventually become addicted.
juve said:No, not really. Spongebob is on the right track. Think of nicotine gum/patches and cigarettes. It is almost impossible to become addicted to gum/patch, whereas cigarettes are much different.
Crack permeates membranes and saturates capilaries much faster than just intranasal administration calling not only for a quicker, but also less sustainable and much more reinforcing response.
Overall crack is the culprit to cocaine's addiction statistic and potential, even though the statistic itself is not high (something like only 11% of regular users become addicted and regular use was estimated to be 51 days of administration - think here). Heroin does not even occupy the same niche as far addiction and pathways of exerting its actions - heroin users are much more susceptible to addiction, one of the reasons being is the way it is administered (IV) yilding a quick and bioefficient response.
Ecstasy and meth don't even lie in the same category as coke - ecstatcy has a fraction of DA affinity of coke whereas meth is far greater than coke; by the same token most effects of coke are DA-mediated with some GABA/5-ht reinforcement, whereas meth and MDMA are almost purely 5-ht mediated.
Alcohol is by far worse in its negative connotations than any of the above especially given the amounts people consume
the reason for all that being that it is more suitable to cross the BBB given how its been modified.
its my understanding the effects of meth arent almost purely 5-ht mediated, and if they were i dont understand how they could also have much to do with GABA since they arent even the same receptor type(2nd messenger) and GABA is inhibitory (cl- channel). the effects of amphetamines and cocaine to some extent are to block DA reuptake at the synapse, although dextro is said to increase transmission by some means, either synthesis of synaptic vessicles or something...
the effects of amphetamines in the CNS are to increase dopamine transmission especially in the frontal and pre-frontal cortex, for most people it gives them an edge, for people with decreased development in the PFC (some ADD cases) it just brings them up to normal.
i totally agree with you about alcohol.
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juve said:
i thought adderrall had some dextro in it? i knew it was a mix of amphetamines.
juve said:
isnt there way less nicotine in the patch/gum? nictotine is probably the most amazing substance known to man, too bad we dont really have a good way to injest it.
sorry, i should have just said the gum, im not up on how much nicotine was in the patch.Optimus B said:
Fun to do when partying sometimes, but the comedown is a bitch. Especially if there's no booze left. Shitty drug overall. 5 minute high that just leaves you wanting more. Only good for when you're so drunk you can't think or walk straight. A little bump and you feel sober again. haven't touched it in a long time tho.
juve
New member
juicedpigtails said:
GABA-B subunits are activated by cocaine and exhbit inhibtory effect on GABA release, plus the activation of GABA-A1 sub-units could partially account for cocaine's ability to give mental edge while relieving anxiety and maintaining mental accuity without lapsing into distress, and such as usually happens with stimulants.
And yes, adderall is a mix of l-and d-amp salts - but l-amp is pretty much useless if not 'harmful' for the purposes intended.
While meth and amp are similar structurally and in their effects, they do exhibit distinct disparities being that meth is more potent and centrally activated. Also meth is quite excitoxic exhibiting high glutamate spikes in various parts of the brain, whereas coke and amp to a much lesser degree.
B
BrothaBill
Guest
To the fastest way Iv or smoking, I dont think the second or so difference makes much difference. Smoking is slightly faster as it hits the lungs it goes directly to the left heart which pumps to the body. IV goes to the right heart with the deoxygenated blood and then to the lungs where the blood is reoxygenated, then onto the left side of the heart and up the aorta and the carotids to the brain. Just a slightly quicker route.
As to the disadvantages of smoking, you waste some in the form of smoke and the IV is full strength, IV users can get an infection of the heart called endocarditis usually the right heart b/c youre injecting bacteria with your drug. So its a risk someone takes.
Cocaine from what Ive studied is a strong psychological addiction and not physical like heroin, ie the physical withdrawal of opiates. Alcohol is the only drug that the withdrawals can kill you usually from repeated seizures.
I think that coke sux and its illegal to boot but I wasnt always an angel when younger so I have no room to talk. I dont think the risks of use justify the risks of it all and besides its too damn expensive b/c it only last a short period.
As to the disadvantages of smoking, you waste some in the form of smoke and the IV is full strength, IV users can get an infection of the heart called endocarditis usually the right heart b/c youre injecting bacteria with your drug. So its a risk someone takes.
Cocaine from what Ive studied is a strong psychological addiction and not physical like heroin, ie the physical withdrawal of opiates. Alcohol is the only drug that the withdrawals can kill you usually from repeated seizures.
I think that coke sux and its illegal to boot but I wasnt always an angel when younger so I have no room to talk. I dont think the risks of use justify the risks of it all and besides its too damn expensive b/c it only last a short period.
ill have to respond to this when i get home and review my notes from neurodevelopment and pathologyjuve said:
what does meth do to cause glutamate spikes?
spongebob
New member
Phaded said:
back to your original question. which i think you should have asked which is more destructive. obviously cocaine. as far as addiction, i think it all boils down to the individual. i have tried it all and my favorite is X, without a doubt that drug was created with me in mind. it suits my preference of getting high and personality exacto-mundo.
but i am not a heavy user my any means. if it was averaged over the year id say i roll about once every two months or less. and im all but about done with it for that matter. cant chance a drug screen failure no longer.
drinking sucks. drinking caused me more problems than any other drug, when i was younger.
coke is ok. just like hardrock said, good for that energy burst after some heavy drinking. but the comedown absolutely sucks. not worth it, not when there is meth.
crack. good intense high for 10min. but if i was up and partying and you tossed some coke on the counter, i might look in the cabinet for baking soda. but i will never touch either one again. too depressive the following day. its been over ten years since i smoke coke or crack.
id choose meth over coke any day of the week. snorting it will tear your nasal passages up quickly though. again this is a good drug after drinking. but i dont plan on doing any of it again either. it is not the high i like to achieve.
drugs are bad! but i have seen more people able to use them socialbly and either stop or never have a problem than i have seen people become addicted. except for pot. most people i know that smoke pot have always smoked and probaly always will. in thier mind it is ok to get high everyday.
just say no!
B
BrothaBill
Guest
Agreed, most people do them for the experience and soon realize that the paybacks the next day arent worth it anymore. Just some people take longer to come to that conclusion, like me with drinking, now I hate it, I drank all the fun out of the bottle a long time ago!!
the nature boy
New member
I've done it many times. Very overrated. 5-htp helps with the shitty feeling the next day.
GoldenDelicious
New member
read it again. the molecule changes, and so the different pharmacodynamic properties of the resultant molecules produce the change in pharmacological outcome.spongebob said:
normal coke - only a bit makes it into the brain, because of its polarity
crack coke - much much more makes it across, because it can diffuse through the BBB better than normal coke
spongebob
New member
GoldenDelicious said:
ok. i understand what your saying now.
chemically though the difference between coke and crack is just the HCl group(makes it a salt and soluble in water). which coke has and crack doesnt. thats how you make crack, you remove the HCl group.
i would assume that once coke is snorted what actually gets into the bloodstream is base cocaine(crack) not cocaineHCl.
is this true?
MikeMartial
New member
Phaded said:
1) Massive Hemorrhagic Cerebral Vascular Accident
2) Z-Band Necrosis resulting in Cardiac Arrest
You choose. After seeing both too many times to count, I'll stick with the ganja. In no way, shape, or form can you overdose on THC (at least in my 12 years as a paramedic I've never seen it.)
MikeMartial
New member
Mr. Black said:
Messing with E is like playing with a neurological time bomb, bro. I'd stay the hell away. Expect the teen generation now to put sales of SSRI anti-depressants into the trillions in 10 years or so.
P
Phaded
Guest
i have no regrets with any drugs i've ever done.. even my horrible trips on acid..
P
Phaded
Guest
i'd like to find mescaline..
megamania500
New member
With coke, your tolerance gets built up real fast. So you won't feel the same high as you did before with the same amount. Also, the more you take it, the worse you feel when you come down. At first, when you take it, when it wears off, you just go back to feeling normal. But each time you take it, as you come down, you feel a little bit more depressed each time. Over time, as your tolerance builds up, the high isn't as intense and doesn't last nearly as long as it once did, and when you come down you are shit-in-the-fucking-dumps depressed. At this point, you need way more than you did when you first started just to get the same feeling, and when you come down into depression, you KNOW that the only thing that will make you feel better, and make you come out of it is more coke.
Pretty soon, you will only have two realities, high and feeling good, and not high and depressed.
but you won't wreck a car on it like alcohol
Pretty soon, you will only have two realities, high and feeling good, and not high and depressed.
but you won't wreck a car on it like alcohol
P
Phaded
Guest
megamania500 said:
coke hangovers are the worst you just wanna lay around watch movies all day and feel sorry for yourself.. on the contrary though.. on nights i go out doing coke and drinking till like 5 am if i wake up at like 10 ish and go for a long jog.. then go workout it takes the coke hangover/depression away quickly..
G
Gaylords_Son
Guest
i have never touched blow, never will.
but I'm a chronic weed head *sigh*
and i would love to eat a few mescaline dots, fun shit
but I'm a chronic weed head *sigh*
and i would love to eat a few mescaline dots, fun shit
Lady Godiva
New member
Used to do coke before. Have't touched that for a year and I don't think I will. The hangovers are nasty and it gets expensive for what 5 minutes of glory ? I would rather do some meth instead !
MikeMartial
New member
Lady Godiva said:
LMAO this is why I will always have career security.
Sad, but true.
