Chest Workout with Shoulder Issues

[lucidblue]

I've gotten most of my new workout nailed down. I'm going to give WalkingBeast's training a shot with lower weight like he suggested. Originally, I was going to do chest/triceps same day. I gave this a try yesterday as Day 1 of my workout. Since I've started working out more actively, I've had a high school shoulder injury flare up. I've been doing rotator rehab exercises and haven't had much of a problem is several months. However, I've had to keep my shoulder and chest workouts light. My chest is extremely weak compared to the rest of my body because of this. The plan for my new workout was do the following on chest/triceps day:

Incline DB Bench 6x12
Decline Bench 6x12 (switching up from flat bench, b/c I've been doing that for awhile).

Close Grip Bench 3x12
Overhead Extensions 3x12
Tricep Pushdowns w/ Vbar 3x12

This didn't work too well for me. I had to make the weight extremely light on the DB inclines, to do the 6 sets, but I felt fine. I tried the decline bench for the first time and couldn't even do the bar. So, I tried assisted dips instead and could do them, but wasn't really feeling it in my chest that much. Within a couple sets my shoulder was irritating me.

Close grip bench has never been a problem for me, so that worked well. Then I tried overhead extensions.... well, that really bugged my shoulder. Should that be bothering the shoulder? My original shoulder injury was on an overhead shot in tennis, so I'm wondering if that is why overhead extensions irritated it last night (I may just go back to skull crushers). Finally, I moved on to tricep pushdowns (always a part of my workout) and my damn shoulder starts popping. It never does that with pushdowns.

I'm definitely going to separate chest and triceps into different days. Might put triceps with back and biceps with chest....

BIG QUESTION:
What lifts can I do to really get my chest stronger without this shoulder irritation?

Apologize for long story, but wanted to give background.

 

[Scotsman]

Stick with flat or inclinr movements. Make sure you are keeping your shoulders as far back in the socket as possible and that your traps are squeezed together tightly. Don't do declines they are shoulder problems waiting to happen. As far as the popping from doing pressdowns probably caused from the earlier irritation from the other exercises. If you have shoulder problems then you should definetly not do chest and tris on the same day as they both impact the shoulders greatly. Also make sure you do rotator warm up before you start pressing and during you first couple of sets to make sure they are warm and ready for lifting.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[Becoming]

This didn't work too well for me. I had to make the weight extremely light on the DB inclines, to do the 6 sets, but I felt fine.
1) what angle incline - standard 40-45 degree? that puts a lot on shoulders... if you can use a lower incline like 10-15% (just one or two clicks on an adjustable incline) that works fine if not better than a higher incline for chest IMO..... 2) did you try to keep elbows in close to the body? it can take strain off the shouders... if not, try it, otherwise, can you switch out to flat db's?-does that bother you?

I tried the decline bench for the first time and couldn't even do the bar. So, I tried assisted dips instead and could do them, but wasn't really feeling it in my chest that much. Within a couple sets my shoulder was irritating me.
again try to keep elbows in close to the body, that should help.... I don't really like declines or dips myself and they irritate the heck out of my shoulders... I have fine chest development without

Close grip bench has never been a problem for me, so that worked well.
it is the bomb diggity

Then I tried overhead extensions.... well, that really bugged my shoulder. Should that be bothering the shoulder? My original shoulder injury was on an overhead shot in tennis, so I'm wondering if that is why overhead extensions irritated it last night (I may just go back to skull crushers).
it could be irritating because of that reason... I would switch back to skull crushers, try lowering the bar to your chin/neck to make it a little tougher

Finally, I moved on to tricep pushdowns (always a part of my workout) and my damn shoulder starts popping. It never does that with pushdowns.
skip this for a while, see if it gets better later on, it might be because of an angle - see if you can do them one armed, with a handle, handle straight in front of your arm... this may not work either for you though

BIG QUESTION:
What lifts can I do to really get my chest stronger without this shoulder irritation?
like I said, try bringing your elbows in and keeping them close to your sides (similar to close grip) I used to have lots of shoulder problems from athletics, but this made a huge difference to me, almost never happens ever now.... there is a reason powerlifters do it this way- hanging your elbows out puts TONS of stress on your shoulders...you pecs will get more than strong too I am sure - it would be easier if I could see your form, but hopefully this will help

Apologize for long story, but wanted to give background.
nice post - saves time

 

[lucidblue]

Stick with flat or inclinr movements. Make sure you are keeping your shoulders as far back in the socket as possible and that your traps are squeezed together tightly. Don't do inclines they are shoulder problems waiting to happen.

Quick question... first you say stick with flat or incline and then you said don't do incline. Did you mean one of them to be decline?

 

[lucidblue]

Becoming, thanks for the great feedback! I'll give a lower incline a try, along with keeping my shoulders in.

 

[Becoming]

Stick with flat or inclinr movements.... Make sure you are keeping your shoulders as far back in the socket as possible and that your traps are squeezed together tightly.......As far as the popping from doing pressdowns probably caused from the earlier irritation from the other exercises. .....Also make sure you do rotator warm up before you start pressing and during you first couple of sets to make sure they are warm and ready for lifting.

Good post Scots...

Lucid- here is a copy of the rotator cuff protocol - try using this for a warm up - also do it several times a week- it should help if you give it time...

1. Front raise thumb up
2. Front Raise thumb down
3. Side Raise thumb up
4. Side Raise thumb down
5. bent raise thumb down to side
6. bent raise thumb up to side
7. bent raise thumb up to front
8. bent raise thumb down to front
9. External rotation top half
10. external rotation bottom half
11. zotman curl
12. overhead press

* all for one set 10 reps. begin with 1 set of 10 reps very light weight and then work the reps up to 15 or 20 over a few weeks.... when you get to 20 drop the sets and reps back down and increase the weight and begin working the reps up again. Do them slowly and controlled and do not jerk the weights (work slowly through the range of motion - do NOT concentrate on how much you are lifting or how fast you are)

 

[Bulldog_10]

I'm gonna pick a few things out and give you my feedback:

Fuck those rotator cuff strengthening exercises (I assume you're talking about internal and external rotations right?). If you really want to strengthen your rotator cuff muscles, just do closed-chain movements (ie push-ups instead of bench press...). These have been shown to be more effective at strengthening the cuff muscles.

I don't really understand the shoulder shit going on with push-downs...your shoulder shouldn't even be moving during that exercise...it should be absolutely stable. If you can't stabilize the shoulder, use lighter weight.

Like scotsman said, keep your shoulder blades pinched during your pressing movements...most people don't do that.

Instead of doing declines with the bar, you could just use some dumbells...I love declines.

 

[Becoming]

Fuck those rotator cuff strengthening exercises (I assume you're talking about internal and external rotations right?). If you really want to strengthen your rotator cuff muscles, just do closed-chain movements (ie push-ups instead of bench press...). These have been shown to be more effective at strengthening the cuff muscles.

Bro - It would be cool if this were true, it would save hella time, but all the PL dudes do it this way and it does seem to help- do you have a link to some more info?

Good call on trying DBs on the declines too...

 

[Bulldog_10]

Bro - It would be cool if this were true, it would save hella time, but all the PL dudes do it this way and it does seem to help- do you have a link to some more info?

Good call on trying DBs on the declines too...

I don't have a link (right now, but I'll look for one)...but what I do have right in front of me is the February issue of The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research (Volume 18, #1).

A little excerpt:

"The purpose of this study was to compare two different training modes in improving shoulder cuff muscular performance. 39 participants were randomly assigned into 3 groups: the isolated group exercised using 2kg dumbells; the complex group used a protocol with complex exercises; and the control group had no training...Results showed that the complex group significantly improved their muscular performance, but the isolated group did not, indicating that isolated exercises are only effective when the training goal is to strengthen the weaker muscle group, but they must be replaced by more complex and closed-chain kinetic exercises in order to obtain considerable improvement of the rotator cuff strength."

 

[d3track]

lower incline bench-absolutly
bb declines- never liked those, db would be better; maybe even do pullovers instead
lucid, for extensions, were you using db or bb?

bulldog- very interesting on the cuff work. does it list the complex exercises used?

 

[lucidblue]

lower incline bench-absolutly
bb declines- never liked those, db would be better; maybe even do pullovers instead
lucid, for extensions, were you using db or bb?

bulldog- very interesting on the cuff work. does it list the complex exercises used?

I was using db for the extensions.

 

[Scotsman]

Quick question... first you say stick with flat or incline and then you said don't do incline. Did you mean one of them to be decline?

Sorry typo I mean don't do declines.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[Becoming]

I don't have a link (right now, but I'll look for one).......

They want 20 bucks for one time viewing... I wish I could see more of the article/data "Results showed that the complex group significantly improved their muscular performance, but the isolated group did not, indicating that isolated exercises are only effective when the training goal is to strengthen the weaker muscle group, but they must be replaced by more complex and closed-kinetic exercises in order to obtain considerable improvement of the rotator cuff strength. The authors propose that a strengthening program should start with isolated movements for better stimulation of the weaker muscles and continue with complex exercise for more impressive strengthening."

I would like to see more of the excercises used, etc, experimental protocols can have a big effect... but it looks interesting none the less.... I like the idea of combining them for maximum effect...

(lucid- sorry, not trying to hijack)

 

[Bulldog_10]

lower incline bench-absolutly
bb declines- never liked those, db would be better; maybe even do pullovers instead
lucid, for extensions, were you using db or bb?

bulldog- very interesting on the cuff work. does it list the complex exercises used?

Oh, I forgot to mention...I agree with everyone who is saying to lower the incline. Most people go too high and bring the delts into it...good call guys.

d3...I'll check on the exercises used...although I don't remember them mentioning which exercises they were...odd. But I'll re-check it anyways and get back to you.

 

[Bulldog_10]

They want 20 bucks for one time viewing... I wish I could see more of the article/data "Results showed that the complex group significantly improved their muscular performance, but the isolated group did not, indicating that isolated exercises are only effective when the training goal is to strengthen the weaker muscle group, but they must be replaced by more complex and closed-kinetic exercises in order to obtain considerable improvement of the rotator cuff strength. The authors propose that a strengthening program should start with isolated movements for better stimulation of the weaker muscles and continue with complex exercise for more impressive strengthening."

I would like to see more of the excercises used, etc, experimental protocols can have a big effect... but it looks interesting none the less.... I like the idea of combining them for maximum effect...

(lucid- sorry, not trying to hijack)

Yeah...I left that last part out because I didn't really feel it pertained here...first off, it's subjective...second, I think they're talking if you're working from baseline...I assume lucid has been in the gym before, and thus can skip right to the complex movements.

 

[d3track]

I was using db for the extensions.

tricky manuver with your injury, i may throw that out
i'm trying to think of sumthin else and am drawing a blank at the moment

and 6 sets sounds a bit excessive, IMHO, thats deffinatly a Beast workout


you could maybe try doing the extensions on an incline, but if it hurts i would scrap it

 

[Becoming]

d3...I'll check on the exercises used...although I don't remember them mentioning which exercises they were...odd. But I'll re-check it anyways and get back to you.

cool man, thnx for the info - if you can get more, or post the whole thing off their e-journal that would be cool...

 

[Bulldog_10]

Found it...

They used pull-ups, overhead presses, reverse pull-ups, and push-ups for the complex group.

They used internal and external rotations for the isolation group.

They tested external and internal isokinetic peak torque on the weak and strong sides before and after training. Both methods strengthened the cuff...

It was shown that the isolation exercise group only improved performance significantly on the weak side. But the authors, and authors of other articles suggest that once the weak side is brought up, the isolation exercises should be replaced with complex movements. The complex group improved significantly on both sides.


If you have any more questions...just ask...I'm heading out the door right now...but I'll answer them when i can.

 

[Becoming]

They used pull-ups, overhead presses, reverse pull-ups, and push-ups for the complex group.
so basically - if you balance your movements correctly- you should have no problems then...?

...It was shown that the isolation exercise group only improved performance significantly on the weak side. But the authors, and authors of other articles suggest that once the weak side is brought up, the isolation exercises should be replaced with complex movements. The complex group improved significantly on both sides.
I think this means that if you do have an injury, the isolations can help to bring it up... but again, then how do you get an injury if you use a balanced routine?

I don't know how well this translates to PL type applications, or even someone in lucid's case... I think it seems to say isolation are great for rehab, but no neccessarily for maintenence strengthening.... Also in regards to the subject, did they just have a weakness, or an injury? Also what is their training history, etc? I think it is interesting to use pushups, pullups etc in conjunction with isolated movements to see how it goes....but I don't know exactly what the study discretely provides in regards to the best way to rehab such an injury...

 

[Lord_Suston]

A few suggestions

1) lower incline like many people stated and use a barbell since db's will cause your stabilizers to kick in hard core. (since it seems to be a weak point for your shoulder you might want to avoid straining those muscles)

2)try lying cable flyes on a cable machine. I suggest cables because of the constant tension rather than normal db flyes wehre the most tension is at parallel with the ground and most of the shearing force is place on the AC at lockout due to the weight force being directed straight toward the ground.

3)decline-never like them.

4) CG bench=good

5) find out what is wrong with shoulder on overhead movement, if it hurt on pressing overhead you have a problem if not then you might need to use a rope instead to allow more freedom in the shoulde joint

 

[lucidblue]

A few suggestions


5) find out what is wrong with shoulder on overhead movement, if it hurt on pressing overhead you have a problem if not then you might need to use a rope instead to allow more freedom in the shoulde joint

It definitely hurt while pressing.

 

[Lord_Suston]

There a few thing that can be wrong
1)your rotator muscle can be real weak or torn,or not firing right
2) Rear delt are too weak to keep shoulder tight in socket
3)AC joint had some damage to it and should ahave it looked at
4) need to drop weight and reassess your form
5)tricept long head can be torn or really weak

My best advice would be work the RC muscles and lighten the weight on Incline and military and French press a lot and see if your shoulder still hurts. If it doesn't then slowly add weight over time (5lbs every other week) and monitor progress and form. Make sure form is perfect, not good but perfect. If your shoulder hurts when light or no weight is present then go see a doc on the should whether is be a chiro or ortho.

 

[JT Iron]

My friend has shoulder problems but is able to do reverse band press without pain.

 

[WalkingBeast]

I've gotten most of my new workout nailed down. I'm going to give WalkingBeast's training a shot with lower weight like he suggested. Originally, I was going to do chest/triceps same day. I gave this a try yesterday as Day 1 of my workout. Since I've started working out more actively, I've had a high school shoulder injury flare up. I've been doing rotator rehab exercises and haven't had much of a problem is several months. However, I've had to keep my shoulder and chest workouts light. My chest is extremely weak compared to the rest of my body because of this. The plan for my new workout was do the following on chest/triceps day:

Incline DB Bench 6x12
Decline Bench 6x12 (switching up from flat bench, b/c I've been doing that for awhile).

Close Grip Bench 3x12
Overhead Extensions 3x12
Tricep Pushdowns w/ Vbar 3x12

This didn't work too well for me. I had to make the weight extremely light on the DB inclines, to do the 6 sets, but I felt fine. I tried the decline bench for the first time and couldn't even do the bar. So, I tried assisted dips instead and could do them, but wasn't really feeling it in my chest that much. Within a couple sets my shoulder was irritating me.

Close grip bench has never been a problem for me, so that worked well. Then I tried overhead extensions.... well, that really bugged my shoulder. Should that be bothering the shoulder? My original shoulder injury was on an overhead shot in tennis, so I'm wondering if that is why overhead extensions irritated it last night (I may just go back to skull crushers). Finally, I moved on to tricep pushdowns (always a part of my workout) and my damn shoulder starts popping. It never does that with pushdowns.

I'm definitely going to separate chest and triceps into different days. Might put triceps with back and biceps with chest....

BIG QUESTION:
What lifts can I do to really get my chest stronger without this shoulder irritation?

Apologize for long story, but wanted to give background.

Im glad you decided to incorporate some of my routine into your training. I think youll like the outcome. For now, Id say to lay off the exercises that cause pain in your shoulder and try to work around the injury, give it time to heal. Its difficult to strengthen the chest without some type of press however. Do you have hammer strength machines at your gym, or some quality pin loaded chest machines? Sometimes the angle of a machine, or certain exercise wont irritate your shoulder as much. Might want to experiment with that and see what feels comfortable. Best of luck with the routine and contact me if you have any questions at all.

 

[d3track]

i was reading ls's suggestion of the barbell, i may get flamed, but would a smith machine be an ok alternative to db as well?

 

[lucidblue]

Thanks everyone! All of the feedback has been really helpful. I will give some of the suggestions a shot next week and see if I notice any differences.