Chest Used in Martial Arts?

[Legion Kreinak]

I was wondering, any of you guys out there that do or know about training for martial arts... is there a reason to train your chest? Abs, legs, and arms I would consider the sources of power for your attacks and the like, but chest just seems out of place. I was thinking of ceasing my benching since chest doesn't seem all that important. Someone please give me feedback.

 

[danielson]

well i think there is

your chest will be used a little during punches, but also moves where you expand your rib cage out and then draw it back in.....its hard to explain, i do crane style so its seen as a bird expanding its chest but it develops power on hooking punches etc

and IMHO its not good to leave one part of your body lacking in strength as 1 its a weakness you will always have and 2 it will hamper the development of other body parts. i would definately keep training chest, io like compound movements, and bench press is one of them, even if it doesnt hit the pecs as much as youd think

 

[Legion Kreinak]

Ah, and just wondering how you feel about flat vs. inclined bench? I hear flat gives a set of "bitch-tits" because it works your lower chest moreso. Would you recommend doing inclined over flat? Right now I do inclined DB and inclined DB flies.

 

[danielson]

for looks, incline chest will build up the upper chest, or its said to. reaslistically it probably only puts a bit more stress on the upper chest, so its not like its some super upper chest builder

but you;d probably have to be training a really long time till flat bench made u look like u had bitch tits. i tend to mix it up a bit, i do some of each (flat, incline, p-dips etc)

as for what makes u punch better, i doubnt it makes that much difference. u can bench more when you go flat (ive found) but that doesnt necessarily mean u punch harder....id just keep mixing it up and train your back too it helps your punch apparently

 

[Legion Kreinak]

Back workouts... hm, I don't like standing BO Rows, but I hear another variation are the "Lying Rows" where you lie on your stomach on an incline, letting the dumbbells hang down to your sides, shoulders stretched forward, then you pull your arms up, elbows latched to your side, to simulate a standing BO Row. Will this work the back just as well, because lying down it doesn't put nearly as much stress on the mid-back. Know what I mean? Yeah...

 

[danielson]

not sure......yuou can do bent over rows well enough provided you keep good firm and work slowly not jerkng the weight

ive seen peole do the lying rows but i;ve never tried em myself

seated cable rows are really good IMHO

i also do T bar rows and chins, lat pull downs currently. used to do BO rows, but i didnt really like the movement all that much

 

[Legion Kreinak]

Cool, hey danielson, not to keep buggin ya, but what would you recommend for a martial artist in training? like 12-15 reps withlighter weight for more muscular endurance, or 6-8 reps and heavy weight for more bulk and strength, because I hear endurance training is generally better...

 

[bigazzmofo]

Personally back and shoulders would be my primary concern when it comes to punching. In fact, the entire body should be worked. I was in the MA for 8 years and we were always told to punch with the entire body not just with arm. Legs play a very important role in punching and kickin (naturally). Take away a man's legs and he can't punch as hard as he could on his feet. That is why I love Jui Jitsu... woohooo..

 

[Legion Kreinak]

Mofo, care to tell me how you strenght trained for the arts? Light weight/more reps or the opposite?

 

[bigazzmofo]

Weights were all we done as far as strenght training. We did alot of high endurance moves, like running, sparring for hours on end until we couldn't stand up. My instructor was big on endurance adn stamina. We would weight train 2-3 days a week, right after we would run, then spar.
We did a wide variety of weight training exercises, mostly bench, decline, incline, flat, curls, tri's, tons of back and lat exercises, shoulders and delts, and yes, legs. answer your ?????

 

[Legion Kreinak]

Er, rather I meant how MUCH weight lifting? 3 sets 12-15 reps on a lighter weight? Or did he edge more towards a bodybuilders perspective like a 5x5 routine? Thx! ^^

 

[danielson]

hmm this is the dilema i face

hi reps would make you think more endurance and since you are mving the weight faster, you;d also thin you are moving more explosivly and training more fasttwitch muscles

but i;ve read (i think on T-mag) that heavy weight is still explosive, perhaps even moreso than light weights as you are exlosivly contracting your muscle even if the weight is light

as a result i try to train low reps but its not always possible with say dumbells etc. next year i plan on workig in olympic powerlifting moves and plylometrics into my routine to make my muscles move faster

as for endurance....hmmm.....id just train more in the actual martial art and just build the endurance there rather than try and get it in the weights room, that way you know your body will be adapting to fighting endurance as opposed to weightroom endurance if that makes any sense. just spar a lot. its really tiring

 

[Legion Kreinak]

Yeah, it gets tiring after a couple of fast-paced rounds, I've been there already. Sparring is the closest I get to fighting without getting in trouble for it, it's like a godsend when I spar. ^^

So, you're suggesting lift more weight, less reps generally when I weight train to gain strength? The only thing I was worried about was getting too much (though I know it doesn't happen overnight) bulk from doing heavier weights. You're awesome, danielson. Wax on, wax off!

 

[danielson]

again another dilema of mine

this is stuff i;ve read but i;ve not read anything that says 'definately do this its worked 1000 times before'.....now it said that if you weightlift the heavy weights, provided you are moving that weight as fast as you can the movement will recruit fast twitch muscle fibres more

however my sifu/instructor is very fast and he has done this through plylometric training and no weights.....so whether combining the two will help or not i dont know. he is very anti-weights though

i train heavy anyway jackie chan on the other hand trains hi-reps low weight.....so i dont know who;s right.



as for the bulk.....as long has you have flexibility and control over your own bodyweight i dont see a problem in getting too big, and if you do a lot of cardio anyway its real hard to get so big it becomes a problem. just as long as your not soo big you cant physically get your limbs in the right place!

 

[Legion Kreinak]

Heh, heh. I sww what you're saying. I think I'll stick with higher reps and lower weight with intense cardio. Just gotta kick the sprinting up a notch. Thanks a lot, man. You helped me a great deal, seem to have well rounded knowledge about this stuff.

 

[Legion Kreinak]

Oh yah, Karma to you.

 

[Thaibox]

Man, gone for a couple weeks and I miss all kind of good stuff.

Legion, some may disagree, but what works best for me is train in all aspects. Train heavy and short, train light and long. But, I think one thing should remain constant, and thats big power movements. You can curl to build you arms, shrug to build your traps, row to build your back thickness, good morning to build your erectors, and leg curl to build your hams, OR deadlift heavy weight and force them all to respond.

Not benching is a bad idea. Even if chest is only(say) 15% of your striking power, why train to hit with only 85% of your potential? A clinching hook is almost all chest. Ever work on someone from their guard? The chest is a huge muscle and helps in more ways then you may realize. Sure shoulders and back(as well as legs) play a major role, but like Danielson said, why create a weak link in yourself? Benching is a compound movement anyway. So, its not like you're only training chest, you're hitting tris, delts, etc. Benching is very important in my opinion.

Also, you said you don't want to get too big and be slow. This is a BS fallacy started by skinny guys. If you train properly, your strength will increase disproportionately to your size, allowing you to be big while becoming faster and more agile. Look at your average pro powerlifter that can slam dunk a basketball with ease. Or, watch an olympic lifter snatch with a blur of speed.

Not to mention being big feels good

 

[Legion Kreinak]

Yeah, that's why I'm thinking of maybe doing the 5x5 routine. You ever do it ThaiBox? I figure getting some size (and power, supposedly it gives LOTS of power) would be a lil' better. I don't wanna be too intimidating, then no one's gonna brawl with me if I go out to a bar. And that means sadness for me. Heh heh

 

[Thaibox]

I just started 5x5 training. I'll let you know in a month or so if I like it. If Needsize went up to 600 dead, I've gotta try it.

 

[solidj55]

I dont know how much this relates but I think its along the same lines. If you think of close fighting/wrestling type shit(which most real world fights end up wrestling on the ground, pushing etc. unless someone gets knocked out first) then there are several things that should be taken into consideration.

As far as your pressing movements go, and we all know pressing movements simulate the range punches are thrown and pushes and shuves, etc. Well in my opinion all pressing movements should be closegrips. Like closegrip incline press and closegrip bench press. Also dumbell incline and dumbell flat presses help isolate and build up each side equally as well as they are the most natural range of motion for this. My football coach used to always preach doing closegrip presses rather than wide or normal grip because you never push(block) with a wide grip, its just natural to do it at shoulder width or closer.

For back I would think any type of row as well as pullups would be of great benifit.

For legs I would think squats, hack squats, or leg presses would be important.

And of course training the triceps with pushdown or extensions would help and doing some sort of curls.

But also important would be training for explosiveness. Things like hang cleans, power cleans, snatches, push press, clean and jerk, etc are all explosive movements that would help in that area.

Just my opinion though.

 

[coolcolj]

when training for performance - train movements not musclegroups.

Target your white fibres with light weight moved very fast and heavy weights moved as fast as you can.