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cheat day when cutting
- Thread starter maxb01
- Start date
M
Mr.X
Guest
depends how "CRAZY" you diet:
for example> when I diet I goto the extremes
for 4 days, then on the 5th day I up my carbs bit by bit
(I GO EXTREMELY low-carb high protein the 4 days)= then on day 6 in morning till, about noon, I eat
) good
1 st 4 meals starting on the night of 5th day are ONLY carbs and no FAT...I have 2 bowls of ffmilk, w/ cerial, at about 6/and 7/30...(some rasberies are nice to add too)
plus during that 5th day I add 25 g of carbs right after my workouts w/ my protein drink (I workout twice a day= so I get 50 carbs from that)_+ the cerial, is enough to get my body ready for 6th day CHEAT :O)....I wouldn't reccomend just JUMPING into a cheat day from a low.no =carb diet because it just isn't a feasible idea from my past experiences....
My 2cents
Mr.X
for example> when I diet I goto the extremes
for 4 days, then on the 5th day I up my carbs bit by bit
(I GO EXTREMELY low-carb high protein the 4 days)= then on day 6 in morning till, about noon, I eat
) good1 st 4 meals starting on the night of 5th day are ONLY carbs and no FAT...I have 2 bowls of ffmilk, w/ cerial, at about 6/and 7/30...(some rasberies are nice to add too)
plus during that 5th day I add 25 g of carbs right after my workouts w/ my protein drink (I workout twice a day= so I get 50 carbs from that)_+ the cerial, is enough to get my body ready for 6th day CHEAT :O)....I wouldn't reccomend just JUMPING into a cheat day from a low.no =carb diet because it just isn't a feasible idea from my past experiences....
My 2cents
Mr.X
M
Mr.X
Guest
here's the thing we are talking about 2 different diet:
I was talking about a High-Protein/low-carb/little fat, basically double protein intake. Now, what I think you wanted to know is the>
Anabolic diet = Ketonic diet, in ketosis you need a supercompensation in order to refill your muscle glycogen; thus, if you are on the "anabolic" diet then YES, you need a carb up, but, unfortunately, NOT a cheat day because a cheat day can make you gain FAT. Why you ask..well, my definition of a cheat day is EAT EVERTHING, yet that will mix sugars and fats, which in turn will spike your insulin and store the eaten fat. However, on the "anabolic" diet you CAN have a carb-up which DiPasquale describes in his Anabolic Diet where you eat high glycemic carbs 1st 4hours of carb up with NO FAT, then you can add a little fat to the combo in later meals. GOTOvery informative info)>
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/exclusive/mcdonald/carbup.htm
My 2cents
Mr.X
[email protected]
I was talking about a High-Protein/low-carb/little fat, basically double protein intake. Now, what I think you wanted to know is the>
Anabolic diet = Ketonic diet, in ketosis you need a supercompensation in order to refill your muscle glycogen; thus, if you are on the "anabolic" diet then YES, you need a carb up, but, unfortunately, NOT a cheat day because a cheat day can make you gain FAT. Why you ask..well, my definition of a cheat day is EAT EVERTHING, yet that will mix sugars and fats, which in turn will spike your insulin and store the eaten fat. However, on the "anabolic" diet you CAN have a carb-up which DiPasquale describes in his Anabolic Diet where you eat high glycemic carbs 1st 4hours of carb up with NO FAT, then you can add a little fat to the combo in later meals. GOTO
very informative info)>http://www.mesomorphosis.com/exclusive/mcdonald/carbup.htm
My 2cents
Mr.X
[email protected]
Cheat days are recommended on diets in general. They keep you sane, they keep your metabolism from shutting down and depending on your type of diet you can get other benefit from.
Contrary to what Mr. X says you should carb load on your free day when partaking in ANY kind of reduced carb diets, not only ketogenic ones like the "Anabolic Diet". The reason you carb load on ketogenic diets is because your glycogen stores become depleted during the week and if you try to lift weights with no glycogen stores you'll find it's damn near impossible.
So with depleted glycogen stores your body will attempt to fill them before storing them as fat. This is true with any reduced carb diets, not only ketogenic ones. If you eat moderate carbs during the week and perform weight training and cardio then no doubt you will deplete your stores. Eating more carbs on your free day will replenish these stores safely.
I would say base your free day on your amount of carbs during the week. If you eat a high carb diet then don't go nuts with carbs on free days as your glycogen stores aren't low. Personally I eat about 120g of carbs per day Monday through Saturday and by the end of the week I am flat. After a high carb free day on Sunday I repeatedly come back to the gym stronger on Monday. Not only that but I am leaner and my muscles are surging with size. My biceps gain half an inch just from the glycogen stores filling up.
However remember that you can take any free day too far and screw your progress up. Enjoy your food but just don't get out of hand. Don't TRY to eat too much and keep fat intake lower on this day even if you have high fat intake during the week. In the last 7 weeks I have had a free day every single week, and half of them I've went to bed almost sick from eating so much. And you know what? I've lost at least 9-10 lbs of fat, which included an 8mm drop in my abdominal skinfold measurement. With that kind of progress I have no plans on dropping my free day as personally I think it helps more than it hurts.
Contrary to what Mr. X says you should carb load on your free day when partaking in ANY kind of reduced carb diets, not only ketogenic ones like the "Anabolic Diet". The reason you carb load on ketogenic diets is because your glycogen stores become depleted during the week and if you try to lift weights with no glycogen stores you'll find it's damn near impossible.
So with depleted glycogen stores your body will attempt to fill them before storing them as fat. This is true with any reduced carb diets, not only ketogenic ones. If you eat moderate carbs during the week and perform weight training and cardio then no doubt you will deplete your stores. Eating more carbs on your free day will replenish these stores safely.
I would say base your free day on your amount of carbs during the week. If you eat a high carb diet then don't go nuts with carbs on free days as your glycogen stores aren't low. Personally I eat about 120g of carbs per day Monday through Saturday and by the end of the week I am flat. After a high carb free day on Sunday I repeatedly come back to the gym stronger on Monday. Not only that but I am leaner and my muscles are surging with size. My biceps gain half an inch just from the glycogen stores filling up.
However remember that you can take any free day too far and screw your progress up. Enjoy your food but just don't get out of hand. Don't TRY to eat too much and keep fat intake lower on this day even if you have high fat intake during the week. In the last 7 weeks I have had a free day every single week, and half of them I've went to bed almost sick from eating so much. And you know what? I've lost at least 9-10 lbs of fat, which included an 8mm drop in my abdominal skinfold measurement. With that kind of progress I have no plans on dropping my free day as personally I think it helps more than it hurts.
That was very helpful Vageta, thank you.
At last somebody that has clear ideas (I've listened to so much shit on this site: ie Casein is a quick absorbable protein, the 400 cal per day diet, 2h-3h morning cardios on an empty stomach, the diet consisting simply of 6 whey + flax oil meals, etc.)
May I ask you something? Because I'm cutting for a photo session, what is the carb depletion trick?
You said that on monday looked fuller after your cheat day. How can I reach my photo session looking fuller but still very ripped?
I'm not on a Keto diet. I'm on a high protein, low carbs, moderate fat diet
At last somebody that has clear ideas (I've listened to so much shit on this site: ie Casein is a quick absorbable protein, the 400 cal per day diet, 2h-3h morning cardios on an empty stomach, the diet consisting simply of 6 whey + flax oil meals, etc.)
May I ask you something? Because I'm cutting for a photo session, what is the carb depletion trick?
You said that on monday looked fuller after your cheat day. How can I reach my photo session looking fuller but still very ripped?
I'm not on a Keto diet. I'm on a high protein, low carbs, moderate fat diet
M
Mr.X
Guest
Vageta said:
Dear Vageta,
First of all, let's look at what you said in your second paragraph and I quote, "
Contrary to what Mr. X says you should carb load on your free day when partaking in ANY kind of reduced carb diets, not only ketogenic ones like the "Anabolic Diet". The reason you carb load on ketogenic diets is because your glycogen stores become depleted during the week and if you try to lift weights with no glycogen stores you'll find it's damn near impossible."
Now let's see, I definitely said, there should be a cheat day for a high protein, low-carb diet and I also stated in my previous post that on the "anabolic diet", a person should have a Carb-Up..NOT a cheat day.
Now, let me explain to you why one should not have a cheat day but instead a strict to the dot Carb-Up on the "anabolic diet."
What happens when you are in Ketosis is simple: your body burns up all muscle glycogen because you eat no carbohydrates to refill those glycogen stores, and, assuming your fat intake is sufficient, you will start burning fat. Well, when the "carb-up" day rolls around, there is a reason you DO NOT HAVE FAT with your high glycemic carbs in those first few hours, and that simple reason is INSULIN.
Let me explain to you, Vageta, the incredible workings of insulin and what it does: What happens when you have those high-glycemic carbs, the first 6 hours of your carb-up, is your insulin will HIGHLY SPIKE causing (I'll put this in words everyone can understand) your RECEPTOR SITES FOR EVERYTHING to OPEN. So, if you are eating Carbs=Glycogen then the glycogen is stored in the muscle, when you add protein to it then, in turn, protein is stored in the muscle. Now, here's the IMPORTANT PART: if you eat FAT in those crucial Carb-Up hours, it WILL be stored as FAT because your FAT receptor cells ARE OPENED BY THE INSULIN SPIKE. In fact, after 12 hours, studies have shown that people that keep up the high carbs along with high fats can, as a consequence, gain 1-1.5 lb of fat back.
I'm not saying have absolutely NO FAT the WHOLE day, but keep the FAT near zero in those few crucial hours. Plus, I am not the only one that supports this theory, people like Lyle McDonald, DiPasquale and a lot of other people that I do not wish to list (Dan), surely support this theory of dieting and have written it numerous of times.
One last thing Vageta, (I'm not trying to put you down or be rude in any, way, shape or form). And I quote, "I have had a free day every single week, and half of them I've went to bed almost sick from eating so much. And you know what? I've lost at least 9-10 lbs of fat, which included an 8mm drop in my abdominal skinfold measurement. " Well, my dear, I give you thumbs up for loosing all that weight, but maybe if you did not goto bed from all the over eating you weight loss could have amounted to let's say 20lbs in that same time. I've personally trained numerous people that have lost 12-15 lbs of body-fat, yes body fat, in as short of a time as 3 weeks. Now, what is my little secret? Simple, I don't let them BINGE like crazy, although they get to eat carbohydrates, it becomes "a controlled" binge. Please understand that what you said is correct, but, at the same time, you tried to say that I was wrong, where I basically stated the same theory.
Remember: The One that speaks too fast, shalln't be the one to solve the problem.
P.S. YOUR METABOLISM DOES NOT SHUT DOWN! But, it slows down drastically.
Happy Memoria Day!!!
My 2cents
Mr.X
[email protected]
Mr.X is correct. Fat must be kept low during the carb-up.
During the carb-up limit fat to as little as possible; less than 20gms for the day. Like fat, protein should also be restricted during the carb-up as it serves little purpose at this stage of the macronutrient cycle.
To put it simply: fat is only fattening when insulin levels are high. Read that last sentence again, and again, and again. This is why 50% of North Americans are obese - they just don't get it this important concept.
I've been tinkering with many varations of the ketogenic diet over the last 3-4 years, and for me, the best cycle is one high carbohydrate meal every 3-4 days as opposed to weekends only - all day. Rather having to wait a week to eat carbs, I can eat one meal (last meal of the day) of carbs every 3 or 4 days. This ensures glycogen levels are never maxed, and I get into ketosis quickly as possible without suffering ill effects in my workouts. Mind you, I never have to stick to this restricted eating cycle for longer than 6-8 weeks in order to drop from 13% bodyfat to 7%. Works like a charm everytime. After summer ends, I gradually go back to 13% bodyfat, but for those 4-5 months, I am ripped to the bone.
During the carb-up limit fat to as little as possible; less than 20gms for the day. Like fat, protein should also be restricted during the carb-up as it serves little purpose at this stage of the macronutrient cycle.
To put it simply: fat is only fattening when insulin levels are high. Read that last sentence again, and again, and again. This is why 50% of North Americans are obese - they just don't get it this important concept.
I've been tinkering with many varations of the ketogenic diet over the last 3-4 years, and for me, the best cycle is one high carbohydrate meal every 3-4 days as opposed to weekends only - all day. Rather having to wait a week to eat carbs, I can eat one meal (last meal of the day) of carbs every 3 or 4 days. This ensures glycogen levels are never maxed, and I get into ketosis quickly as possible without suffering ill effects in my workouts. Mind you, I never have to stick to this restricted eating cycle for longer than 6-8 weeks in order to drop from 13% bodyfat to 7%. Works like a charm everytime. After summer ends, I gradually go back to 13% bodyfat, but for those 4-5 months, I am ripped to the bone.
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Ummmm, it looks like everyone is trying to say the same thing. I read Vageta's post to mean that he endorses a high carb cheat once a week. I assumed he meant low fat as well, but I'll let him speak for himself. I mostly diet in the 100-150g carbs per day which is pretty low carbs for me. And I have a high carb very lowfat cheat meal every 4 days like Rudee. If I'm not losing at least 2lbs per week I am very disappointed with my results. I think intelligent cheat meals are better than just cheating like a pig. Intelligent, as Mr X and Rudee said, is not mixing high carbs with high fat. Simple and effective.
Well it does look like we are all trying to say the same thing so let me clear a few things up. First of all I did say to keep fat intake lower on the free day, but you don't have to shoot for zero. Just get some EFAs to keep your body functioning optimally. I don't think there is some magic 4 hour window for keeping fat low. You cannot fill glycogen stores in 4 hours, in fact you may not do it in 12 hours which is why some do a 2 day carb up. Your body can only store so much glycogen in a short amount of time, thus you should eat carbs every couple of hours during your carb up day. Bodyopus has some strict intructions on this, which may be beneficial, but they make the carb up a chore to say the least. Since you can't fill glycogen stores in 4 hours I don't see why fat intake is any more dangerous during this time than it is during the rest of the day. Now I don't mean to say that fat intake should be high by any means, it should be low all day long. However I don't think having a little fat in the first few meals is cause for concern. If you have sufficiently depleted glycogen stores during the week then all or at least the majority of carbs you intake during this period should go to fill glycogen stores while any fat you intake will be used for energy, along with stored bodyfat. My first meal of my carb up day is almost always pancakes or waffles in which I also add peanut butter to them(EFAs). I also love to make a homemade Boboli pizza where I add a little bit of Olive oil on the crust(EFAs) and some black olives to the toppings(again EFAs). These however are good fats and and I tend to use lowfat or nonfat cheese for the toppings and something like turkey pepperoni which is lowfat.
There is also confusion between cheat days and carb ups. Personally I was using the terms to mean the same thing but to be specific I do mean carb up. Cheat day would definately refer to a free for all, whereas a carb up has more structure. Since I was referring to a high carb/low fat cheat day I assumed that meant that the cheat day wasn't without limitations.
While you could definatley measure everything and shoot for specific guidelines on your carb up day, I personally don't. And Mr X. you are correct. Had I followed an exact set of guidelines on my carb ups, or perhaps never had a carb up, my progress might be better. Or it might be worse, it's one of those things you never know. However I will say that I'd prefer to enjoy my free days as they make the diet that much easier to follow. Knowing that I am going to eat what I want on Sunday makes it very easy to fight any cravings during the week.
Personally I'd rather take 14 weeks to lose a given number of fat, while enjoying my weekend than losing the same amount of fat in 12 weeks but following a perfectly strict diet and not being able to quell any cravings I may have had. This also makes coming off the diet that much easier.
Oh and you also mentioned what Lyle M. has advocated. You should also know that he advocates refeeds/cheat day/carb up, whatever you want to call it, much more often than I mentioned. He also has less structure to it, basically saying high carb, low fat, moderate protein and go a bit over maintenance. This has a lot to do with Leptin levels than simply refilliling glycogen stores.
In the end we are all basically saying the same things, we just advocate perhaps a different method. My main point was carb up days are not just for ketogenic diets, but instead for any diets where carbs are limited and glycogen stores are therefore depleted. I feel there is no need to take any diet to extreme levels until the body calls for it. If you can lose fat steadily why incorporating a free day then by all means do it. If fat loss slows to a crawl you should think about being more structured on the free day.
There is also confusion between cheat days and carb ups. Personally I was using the terms to mean the same thing but to be specific I do mean carb up. Cheat day would definately refer to a free for all, whereas a carb up has more structure. Since I was referring to a high carb/low fat cheat day I assumed that meant that the cheat day wasn't without limitations.
While you could definatley measure everything and shoot for specific guidelines on your carb up day, I personally don't. And Mr X. you are correct. Had I followed an exact set of guidelines on my carb ups, or perhaps never had a carb up, my progress might be better. Or it might be worse, it's one of those things you never know. However I will say that I'd prefer to enjoy my free days as they make the diet that much easier to follow. Knowing that I am going to eat what I want on Sunday makes it very easy to fight any cravings during the week.
Personally I'd rather take 14 weeks to lose a given number of fat, while enjoying my weekend than losing the same amount of fat in 12 weeks but following a perfectly strict diet and not being able to quell any cravings I may have had. This also makes coming off the diet that much easier.
Oh and you also mentioned what Lyle M. has advocated. You should also know that he advocates refeeds/cheat day/carb up, whatever you want to call it, much more often than I mentioned. He also has less structure to it, basically saying high carb, low fat, moderate protein and go a bit over maintenance. This has a lot to do with Leptin levels than simply refilliling glycogen stores.
In the end we are all basically saying the same things, we just advocate perhaps a different method. My main point was carb up days are not just for ketogenic diets, but instead for any diets where carbs are limited and glycogen stores are therefore depleted. I feel there is no need to take any diet to extreme levels until the body calls for it. If you can lose fat steadily why incorporating a free day then by all means do it. If fat loss slows to a crawl you should think about being more structured on the free day.
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