Can Dumbells Really Aid In Flat Barbell Bench Strength?

[WalkingBeast]

Can Dumbells Really Aid In Flat/Incline Barbell Bench Strength?

Hey everyone! Im thinking of changing up my routine and adding in dumbell presses, which I never do. And possibly, Ill prioritize inclines over flat bench. Not sure yet. Has anyone ditched the barbell for a while, used dumbells, and come back stronger on the benches? Im thinking of doing incline dumbell presses too, to bring up my upper chest. Its been lagging lately. Ill definately be doing flat barbell or incline barbell once a week, its my second chest day that Im trying to decide on. Ill use hammer strength presses and heavy flies as well, along with speed work. All feedback is greatly appreciated!!

 

[InTraining]

From a strength aspect....I have never had my incline\flat BB press rise from incline\flat db presses...but on the other hand it seems like the db presses give me more mass....and just the fact that one is rotating between 2-3 exercises should be helpful in eliminating\delaying plateaus...

I think your plan is good...most likely you will gain some nice mass gains from including the flat\incline\even decline db presses back into the routine...

Personally I think db presses are vastly underrated from a mass perspective...I always feel a better mind-muscle connection when using the dbs and find it easier to isolate the pectorals

 

[bignate73]

i am using DB presses, palms facing, right now to help me off the chest. thats my weak point, since im a raw bencher, i dont do alot of lock out work, i mainly focus on off the chest speed/power so i can get to my tris which are overly strong relative to my chest.

WSB recommends doing palms facing chest presses, i keep my elbows tucked.

 

[InTraining]

i am using DB presses, palms facing, right now to help me off the chest. thats my weak point, since im a raw bencher, i dont do alot of lock out work, i mainly focus on off the chest speed/power so i can get to my tris which are overly strong relative to my chest.

WSB recommends doing palms facing chest presses, i keep my elbows tucked.

O yes! I totally forgot about these...I started doing them after reading a westside article for those who are weak off the chest-2"-3" off the chest...

Article recommended doing these in high rep sets(15-20 reps) with 4-5 minutes rest between sets...

I got some nice hypertrophy from these as well...

There is a video on www.irongame.com of Ben White doing 100's for 50 reps on this movement

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to bignate73 again.

 

[WalkingBeast]

From a strength aspect....I have never had my incline\flat BB press rise from incline\flat db presses...but on the other hand it seems like the db presses give me more mass....and just the fact that one is rotating between 2-3 exercises should be helpful in eliminating\delaying plateaus...

I think your plan is good...most likely you will gain some nice mass gains from including the flat\incline\even decline db presses back into the routine...

Personally I think db presses are vastly underrated from a mass perspective...I always feel a better mind-muscle connection when using the dbs and find it easier to isolate the pectorals

ThanX brother!! Would be nice to add some mass to my chest!! Ive definately been feeling like trying some new things lately. I like the idea of having a free for all type of chest day where I can focus more on bodybuilding then just all out strength. Ive never done much dumbell pressing for incline,decline or flat. Not consistently anyway. They seem like they have some poteintial for sure. I never really felt the soreness with them in the past, but that was a long time ago. Still trying to get a routine worked out by thursday!! I like Nates suggestion alot about incorporating a 5x5 after maxing on the one rep. This would be on my main chest day where I have a spotter available. ThanX again for the feedback!!

 

[wnt2bBeast]

I agree with all the posts here so far..i like dbells myself but i think unless your a beginner (we know your not lol) im not sure if you would get any direct carry over to your BB bench unless your doing something specific like bignate..if you have a weak side i can see it helping there..other than that just doing something different for your chest may lead to some new size/strength..

 

[Carmen]

i am using DB presses, palms facing, right now to help me off the chest. thats my weak point, since im a raw bencher, i dont do alot of lock out work, i mainly focus on off the chest speed/power so i can get to my tris which are overly strong relative to my chest.

me too, exactly. my gym doesn't have a cambered bar so i use dumbells to simulate it.

 

[Illuminati]

Re: Can Dumbells Really Aid In Flat/Incline Barbell Bench Strength?

Hey everyone! Im thinking of changing up my routine and adding in dumbell presses, which I never do. And possibly, Ill prioritize inclines over flat bench. Not sure yet. Has anyone ditched the barbell for a while, used dumbells, and come back stronger on the benches? Im thinking of doing incline dumbell presses too, to bring up my upper chest. Its been lagging lately. Ill definately be doing flat barbell or incline barbell once a week, its my second chest day that Im trying to decide on. Ill use hammer strength presses and heavy flies as well, along with speed work. All feedback is greatly appreciated!!

i love heavy flies (6-8 rep range.) i think they are the shit for building the chest. although seems like a lot of people here disagree with me on that one. alternate flat flies one week, and incline flies the next.
also i like your idea of using speed work. i got some jumpstretch bands. i started incorporating them in my workouts. my bench PR shot up. the bands teach you to explode off the chest because it gradually adds the band tesnsion. INVEST YOUR MONEY IN A SET OF MINI'S! they are well worth the $10 a band ($20 for the set, plus $4.50 shipping and handling).

to find a set of bands, go to www.elitefts.com click on the shop, and then click accessories on the left side of the screen. scroll down, and you will see flex bands. click on those.

 

[bignate73]

just a side note on the bands:

dont be a jackass like me and order just one.....make sure you put 2 in your shopping cart. otherwise you become an "at home mf'er doing active recovery with one band" instead of using the bands on the actual bar.

 

[Synpax]

Re: Can Dumbells Really Aid In Flat/Incline Barbell Bench Strength?

i love heavy flies (6-8 rep range.)

I know you are probably a pro, but I think there should be a disclaimer added here so that new folks reading this don't decide to go start doing heavy flies as they are very prone to injury unless done by someone who has a lot of experience and really knows what they are doing.

Can anyone back me up on this or am I over-reacting? I don't think the position you find the arms in at the end of the movement is one meant to support a large amount of weight.

 

[Buddy_Christ]

the one thing i've noticed about doing db chest work is i can get a different motion. the way i work dbs ends up being partially like a fly movement and partially a press movement. i bend my elbows as i come down but i end the movement much wider than i could with a bar. i can also go just a hair deeper with dbs than i can with a bb, mostly because i go wider as i get deeper.

i've noticed that my upper chest muscles get more pumped doing incline bb as opposed to incline db.

 

[eat big]

beast, dumbells do help, i do them every third workout, after i do them the next week, thats when i usually break plateaus
eat big

 

[Illuminati]

Re: Can Dumbells Really Aid In Flat/Incline Barbell Bench Strength?

I know you are probably a pro, but I think there should be a disclaimer added here so that new folks reading this don't decide to go start doing heavy flies as they are very prone to injury unless done by someone who has a lot of experience and really knows what they are doing.

Can anyone back me up on this or am I over-reacting? I don't think the position you find the arms in at the end of the movement is one meant to support a large amount of weight.

you're right. i should have put that in there. i've been doing flyes for a long time. one should take some time to get the movement down before they start going too heavy. the key to doing them, is stopping the movement just before discomfort sets in. and also make sure you have a slight bend at the elbows.

 

[cwick0]

I wish i could offer my 2 cents, but since i never do flat db presses i cant. I do incline db presses a lot after my flat work, but i dont really see a carry over to my incline barbell.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Re: Can Dumbells Really Aid In Flat/Incline Barbell Bench Strength?

I know you are probably a pro, but I think there should be a disclaimer added here so that new folks reading this don't decide to go start doing heavy flies as they are very prone to injury unless done by someone who has a lot of experience and really knows what they are doing.

Can anyone back me up on this or am I over-reacting? I don't think the position you find the arms in at the end of the movement is one meant to support a large amount of weight.

you need good form when doing heavy flies..most people that i see do not control the negative when benching and it seems as if the weights is gong to crash on them..the same with flies you need to control the negative otherwise gravity will take the weight and your shoulder and bring it to the floor..im with illum though and wheni do flies i try to go fairly heavy in the 6-10 range..ive gone as high as 100's without any shoulder problems

 

[Illuminati]

Re: Can Dumbells Really Aid In Flat/Incline Barbell Bench Strength?

you need good form when doing heavy flies..most people that i see do not control the negative when benching and it seems as if the weights is gong to crash on them..the same with flies you need to control the negative otherwise gravity will take the weight and your shoulder and bring it to the floor..im with illum though and wheni do flies i try to go fairly heavy in the 6-10 range..ive gone as high as 100's without any shoulder problems

100's on flies? damn, thats sick! i thought i was good the time i got the 70's for a set of 6.
like wnt2b says, control on the negative is the key. but that is just like all other lifts....

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Re: Can Dumbells Really Aid In Flat/Incline Barbell Bench Strength?

100's on flies? damn, thats sick! i thought i was good the time i got the 70's for a set of 6.
like wnt2b says, control on the negative is the key. but that is just like all other lifts....

i dont go that high anymore stick with the 80's for the most part..however since ive been doing 5x5 i havent done flyes in a while been doing decline to finish up but i may change in next week..

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

I'm gonna have to try that. I don't like high reps for most of my muscles anyhow except for a few specific ones like forearms, triceps and traps, but I've always done flyes for high reps just cause. I always do flyes very strict. Gonna have to up the weight. I'll bet I like it.

 

[WalkingBeast]

Re: Can Dumbells Really Aid In Flat/Incline Barbell Bench Strength?

i love heavy flies (6-8 rep range.) i think they are the shit for building the chest. although seems like a lot of people here disagree with me on that one. alternate flat flies one week, and incline flies the next.
also i like your idea of using speed work. i got some jumpstretch bands. i started incorporating them in my workouts. my bench PR shot up. the bands teach you to explode off the chest because it gradually adds the band tesnsion. INVEST YOUR MONEY IN A SET OF MINI'S! they are well worth the $10 a band ($20 for the set, plus $4.50 shipping and handling).

to find a set of bands, go to www.elitefts.com click on the shop, and then click accessories on the left side of the screen. scroll down, and you will see flex bands. click on those.

I used to always do cable flies after my main bench work. Id sometimes go up to 300lbs on the cable flies for reps (150 per side), and have repped the 120's on incline dumbell flies. For some reason I developed alot of strength in the bear hugging (fly) range of motion. Part of that could be do to the gym I started in. They had a nautilus fly machine that you laid down on. Within little time I was racking the machine for 12-15 reps. I was obsessed with that machine at the time haha.This was while I was still in the 140-150 bodyweight range. Probabally on pure rage alone, but that range of motion has always been a strong point. The transition over to benching doesnt seem to be real high though. Im sure it helps. Ive thought of trying those bands as well. Seem complicated to incorporate into a routine, thats why Ive been hesitant. That and I dont have alot of money to work with, but 20$ is no big deal if they can help my bench. ThanX for the feedback brother!!

 

[WalkingBeast]

ThanX all for all the feedback!! Very helpful!

 

[WalkingBeast]

beast, dumbells do help, i do them every third workout, after i do them the next week, thats when i usually break plateaus
eat big

Sounds like a good way to switch things up! I cant see myself switching dumbells for the barbell, but Id like to incorporate some dumbell presses in my chest routines for sure. ThanX again!!

 

[supreme]

Beast:

All the advice sounds pretty good so far. DB's will definately improve you Bench strength because each side will have to handle the load independently and will require greater stabilization from the rotator cuff whcih will aid in bench strength. To realy work on integrating your pecs / tri's & stabilizers try some of your DB work on a physioball.

Some concerns are the depth of the DB press, if you go too deep and stretch the anterior capsule of your shoulder you can devolp shoulder laxity and many other problems later on. Everyone has a different anatomical end range, every rep you go beyond it damages the shoulder capsule (the connective tissue in the anterior shoudler is not meant to be stretched) Bringing a bar to the chest or dumbells beyond is usually too deep for most people.

I would watch your depth on DB fly also for the same reason. Especailly if you do everything on a bench and not a ball. When you lie on the bench you push down on to your scapulothoracic joint and imobilize it. When the STJ can't move, the excess stress goes in to the glenohueral joint of the shoulder. The deeper your go, the more stress on your shoudler. If you use a ball, the round surface permits the STJ more mobilti, but still don't go too deep. Using the ball for DB presses & flys provdes a wider base then the bench, so you have a natural safety stop I.E. when your Tri's hit the ball you have gone deep enough and won't injure the shoulder. Don't worry you won't lose strength or ROM. The body develops strength in trained muscles 10 -20 degrees above & below the end point. That is how people with injuries can still develop strength througth a full ROM without moving into a painful position.

Good luck!

S

 

[WalkingBeast]

Beast:

All the advice sounds pretty good so far. DB's will definately improve you Bench strength because each side will have to handle the load independently and will require greater stabilization from the rotator cuff whcih will aid in bench strength. To realy work on integrating your pecs / tri's & stabilizers try some of your DB work on a physioball.

Some concerns are the depth of the DB press, if you go too deep and stretch the anterior capsule of your shoulder you can devolp shoulder laxity and many other problems later on. Everyone has a different anatomical end range, every rep you go beyond it damages the shoulder capsule (the connective tissue in the anterior shoudler is not meant to be stretched) Bringing a bar to the chest or dumbells beyond is usually too deep for most people.

I would watch your depth on DB fly also for the same reason. Especailly if you do everything on a bench and not a ball. When you lie on the bench you push down on to your scapulothoracic joint and imobilize it. When the STJ can't move, the excess stress goes in to the glenohueral joint of the shoulder. The deeper your go, the more stress on your shoudler. If you use a ball, the round surface permits the STJ more mobilti, but still don't go too deep. Using the ball for DB presses & flys provdes a wider base then the bench, so you have a natural safety stop I.E. when your Tri's hit the ball you have gone deep enough and won't injure the shoulder. Don't worry you won't lose strength or ROM. The body develops strength in trained muscles 10 -20 degrees above & below the end point. That is how people with injuries can still develop strength througth a full ROM without moving into a painful position.

Good luck!

S

Very good information!! ThanX brother!! Seems Cwicks style of benching is also safer on the joints. It makes sense, cuz I can feel some clicking in my shoulder occasionally with the one rep max when I bring the bar to my chest.
Im sure it has to have some wear and tear over time. The ball sounds like a good idea. Im sure Id have to go a good deal lighter. I cant imagine throwing up 130lb dumbells on a ball! haha Id probabally end up really injuring myself if I did that! Very interesting about the 10-20 degrees of strength you mentioned. Does the shoulder capsule regenerate over time, if its not stressed? ThanX again brother!!

 

[supreme]

No problem, glad I could help.

Well unfortunately the capusle does not regenerate although you could try supplements like glucosamine, chondroitin & collagen protein all which help with connective tissue. There is Prolo-Therapy where a Doc injects nutrients that cause ligamnents too tighten back up - effective about 85% of the time (do a web search its real medicine not some homeopathic crap)

When you stretch out the anterior capsule it remains stretched (anterior shoulder laxity) and does not go back (think of it like the plastic rings on a six pack of soda- you stretch out the plastic & the can does not fit back in ) In a persons case the can is the humerus and it starts moving around altering joint mechanics, hitting the acromion and pinching all the tissues in between - the subacromial bursae & rotator cuff tendons. Can lead to bursitits, tendonitits, impingement or a cuff tear.

Don't worry about the ball I have used 80's -100's for pressess & bigger bro's havedone more - but make sure you have a high qualtiy ball, plenty of room and a spotter. The spotter should steady the ball from behing until you are in position or the force from all the weight you use may cause the ball to fire out from behind you.

Use the ball only for a few weeks to increase stabilizer strength. If you stay on it too long you will lose overall bench strength due to the decreased amount of tension on the prime movers and not training the bench pathway neurologically.

The carry over of 10 -20 degrees is a documented fact. That is the basis of many physical therapy and rehab programs. It is why isometrics, including rack lock outs give strength not only in the position trained but the whole muscle. It allows a person to rehab shoulders above and below the painful arc when they damage thier rotator cuff. They train above & below the pain and get strength in the entire ROM

S

P.S. you will probably scare the shit out of most of the people in your gym when they see you use 100+ on the ball compared to their 40 lb DB's. - its a lot of fun!

 

[WalkingBeast]

No problem, glad I could help.

Well unfortunately the capusle does not regenerate although you could try supplements like glucosamine, chondroitin & collagen protein all which help with connective tissue. There is Prolo-Therapy where a Doc injects nutrients that cause ligamnents too tighten back up - effective about 85% of the time (do a web search its real medicine not some homeopathic crap)

When you stretch out the anterior capsule it remains stretched (anterior shoulder laxity) and does not go back (think of it like the plastic rings on a six pack of soda- you stretch out the plastic & the can does not fit back in ) In a persons case the can is the humerus and it starts moving around altering joint mechanics, hitting the acromion and pinching all the tissues in between - the subacromial bursae & rotator cuff tendons. Can lead to bursitits, tendonitits, impingement or a cuff tear.

Don't worry about the ball I have used 80's -100's for pressess & bigger bro's havedone more - but make sure you have a high qualtiy ball, plenty of room and a spotter. The spotter should steady the ball from behing until you are in position or the force from all the weight you use may cause the ball to fire out from behind you.

Use the ball only for a few weeks to increase stabilizer strength. If you stay on it too long you will lose overall bench strength due to the decreased amount of tension on the prime movers and not training the bench pathway neurologically.

The carry over of 10 -20 degrees is a documented fact. That is the basis of many physical therapy and rehab programs. It is why isometrics, including rack lock outs give strength not only in the position trained but the whole muscle. It allows a person to rehab shoulders above and below the painful arc when they damage thier rotator cuff. They train above & below the pain and get strength in the entire ROM

S

P.S. you will probably scare the shit out of most of the people in your gym when they see you use 100+ on the ball compared to their 40 lb DB's. - its a lot of fun!

Great information once again! Very knowledgable. Great to see on the training forums! Id like to try the stabilizer ball with the dumbells. ThanX for the contribution!! I like what you said about neurological training. This interests me greatly. I noticed when I took a long lay off during my injury that upon returning to the flat bench, 225 felt awkward and heavy. Like I forgot how to bench. It was frightening, cuz Im fucking paranoid! haha Luckily it came back in some months. Do you think that may be whats happened to me recently. I was out of the gym for 9 days during the hurricane and before that I was getting 315x10. When I came back 9 days later I only got 315x5 and then the same a week later! Pisses me off. Makes me think my chest shrunk, but it appears the same pretty much. Cant understand it. You think it could be neurological in such a short period of time off. Maybe this is why I lose strength so quickly on the bench? My mind muscle connection might be prone to getting fucked up in short periods of time. Something Ive been thinking about lately. Or it could be that I really did lose muscle. I had lost 8lbs in this time period due to insufficient nutrition for 3 days (60-100 grams of protein).
I gained most of the weight back the following week and still only got 315x5 on flat bench. So maybe Im gaining the weight back but not the muscle? Confuses the fuck out of me. Im obsessed with trying to gain an understanding on these things. ThanX again for all the information! Hope to see you post on here more often!

 

[bignate73]

cns is trainable and can become untrained just like anything. thats why speed work and max effort work is used. but you could implement ball work in the place of speed work to build up your CNS as well.

 

[anthrax]

Can floor bench (BB and/or DB) be a good alternative to regular bench press if you're concerned with the health of your shoulders/rotator cuff ?

 

[supreme]

Yes, definatelty.

A very successfull bench rehab program is to:

1) Do R. cuff strengtheing & stretching at the end of all your upper body workouts

2) start with floor DB bench press, then move to an underinflated physioball, then to a fully inflated ball and then back to the bench

This alows you to train your stabilizers and gradually get back to benching.

S