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Caffeine The Drug Of Death For Dieting And Othewise

OMEGA

New member
I KNEW IT!

Coffee Drinkers Beware!

While there were several interesting topics presented, including a lecture given by a MD/PhD and research superstar Wim Saris who confirmed all of my incessant ramblings about the value of protein and amino acids with glucose and maltodextrin in a post-workout drink, the topic I found most interesting was the research presented on caffeine/coffee and insulin sensitivity.

For a while now I've been cautioning my clients and T-mag readers about the ill effects caffeine and typical thermogenic agents have on insulin sensitivity. Well, at the University of Guelph they've been investigating this issue intensively and here's what they found:

1) Caffeine intake (in all of its forms) decreases whole body glucose disposal (carbohydrate uptake) by 15-30%.

2) Caffeine intake decreases skeletal muscle glucose disposal by 50%.

3) When consumed with a standard carbohydrate breakfast, caffeine decreases insulin sensitivity, leading to large increases in blood insulin. But even in the face of this insulin surge, blood glucose doesn't disappear at a normal rate. When the body can't take up carbohydrates properly (as when drinking coffee), it releases loads of insulin to help out. However, the coffee actually prevents the insulin from doing this job and you end up with high insulin and glucose. That, my friends, is the serum profile of the obese, type II diabetic.

4) Caffeine decreases insulin sensitivity for at least three hours (this is the duration of the longest study they've performed), but the true duration of the effect isn't known. I speculate that it's at least five hours, the half life of caffeine.

In this case, many people are probably walking around all day with impaired insulin sensitivity. If you're a coffee drinker you should realize that you're living your life like a diabetic except during the times that it could actually be diagnosed. When you go to the doc to see why you're so fat or you feel like crap (if you have any glucose or insulin tolerance problems), what do you have to do? You have to fast overnight and avoid coffee! So 99% of your waking life you're functionally diabetic and that 1% of the time when it really matters and can be diagnosed, you're not. No wonder experts suggest that 50% of North Americans are diabetics who aren't diagnosed as such.

5) In one study, four groups were used to evaluate the effect of caffeine and glycemic index on insulin sensitivity.

• The first group got decaf and a low-GI breakfast. They saw a normal blood glucose and insulin response.

• The second group got decaf and a high-GI breakfast. They saw a bigger insulin and glucose response in the blood.

• However, when the low GI group got regular coffee with breakfast, their blood profile was worse than that of those who got the high-glycemic breakfast and decaf. Therefore coffee/caffeine can turn a low glycemic meal into a high glycemic meal!

• Finally, the group that drank coffee and had the high-glycemic meal ended up looking like diabetics.

6) One interesting hypothesis generated at the seminar was as follows: In terms of insulin sensitivity, caffeine alone is worse than coffee and obviously (as seen above) coffee is worse than nothing. However, some people believe that certain substances in coffee (specific quinides) can actually increase glucose disposal and improve insulin sensitivity. While the quinide content of coffee isn't strong enough to counter the effects of the caffeine, the quinides in decaf coffee may actually increase glucose and insulin tolerance. This hypothesis still needs to be tested and proper doses have yet to be discussed; however, keep your eyes out for this research in the near future.

So the final word on coffee and caffeine is this — stay the heck away from it! The only way to minimize the damage it causes may be to drink your coffee with a very low carbohydrate meal and eat only low carb meals for the next few hours after your coffee intake. I know, I know, it now sucks to be a coffee drinker! But giving up your java may bring you some great health and physique benefits.
 
Thanks, Omega.... good post.

I'll be avoiding it during my bulking phase if it decreases insulin sensitivity. Certainly don't want that!! Bit of a shame, though.... I was hoping to use it to intensify my workouts. Ah well, I'll have to use willpower alone.
 
well.....that sucks. i love coffee almost as much as life itself....sometimes it's my only motivaion for going to bed at night, knowing that in the morning i will have some coffee...so the sooner i get to bed, the sooner i can get up and have coffee...
 
omega:

do you think it is the coffee itself, or the oter items the are injested with coffee (sugar, milk/flavored cremes, doughnuts, swett rolls, toast, croisanns, and son on) that cause the problems?
 
Re: omega:

rnch said:
do you think it is the coffee itself, or the oter items the are injested with coffee (sugar, milk/flavored cremes, doughnuts, swett rolls, toast, croisanns, and son on) that cause the problems?


I think coffee is the problem, and caffeine as well. when you eat those foods you listed it just exaserbates the problem. But the coffee put the wheels in motion.


Green TEA on the other hand has caffeine but with in the tea is an amino acid that blocks the negative effects of the drug, hence making it a benificial beverage to imbibe
 
So taking and ECA or NYC would be counterproductive? because of the caffein
 
frankenfurter said:
Can you post where you read this and where the actual studies are that we can read? I'd be interested to see the raw information.

here ya go


its by John M. Berardi
 
OMEGA said:


:)

learning new techniques:angel:

how about you?

Then you should be busy now just like me. I'm here on Kaioushin Kai with your son, Gohan. I hope he'll be able to pull out that fuckin' sword... :)


By the way I must force myself to reduce my daily coffee intake which I wasn't able to do for ages. Now there is a reason to do it... Good, inspirating post! :D
 
1) "Caffeine intake (in all of its forms) decreases whole body glucose disposal (carbohydrate uptake) by 15-30%."

This statement should be qualified with "in adult males" since caffeine has no effect on glucose disposal in females (Metabolism 2000 Jan;49(1):101-7; Influence of age on the thermic response to caffeine in women.)

2) "Caffeine intake decreases skeletal muscle glucose disposal by 50%"

This statement should be qualified by "in sedentary couch potatoes" since this is clearly not the case during exercise (J Physiol 2000 Dec 15;529 Pt 3:837-47; Caffeine ingestion does not alter carbohydrate or fat metabolism in human skeletal muscle during exercise).


"So the final word on coffee and caffeine is this - stay the heck away from it! The only way to minimize the damage it causes may be to drink your coffee with a very low carbohydrate meal and eat only low carb meals for the next few hours after your coffee intake. I know, I know, it now sucks to be a coffee drinker! But giving up your java may bring you some great health and physique benefits"………..

This is a bizarre conclusion to come to for a website that promotes itself as being into fitness. There is a plethora of research that shows that caffeine and even more so caffeine plus ephedrine leads to an increase in energy expenditure, better exercise tolerance (via glucose sparing effects) and an increase in lipolysis that leads to a significant fat loss. As one paper summarized

"Twenty-four-hour energy expenditure was higher in both groups during drug treatment. Ephedrine+Caffeine did not produce systematic changes in glucoregulatory variables, whereas plasma leptin concentrations decreased in both groups with drug treatment. Overall, these results show that E+C treatment can promote fat loss through an increase in energy expenditure, or in some individuals, a combination of an increase in energy expenditure and a decrease in food intake."

"The thermic effect of caffeinated and decaffeinated coffee ingested with a standard breakfast was studied in 8 healthy subjects with indirect calorimetry. A higher increase in the metabolic rate was observed after ingestion of the breakfast with coffee containing caffeine than after that with coffee deprived of caffeine."

Although I agree that excess caffeine consumption in combo with a meal high in carbs may not be a good idea if you're obese or already insulin resistant, I firmly believe that some java first thing in the morning (before cardio or weights) or before any exercise is a good thing. And ECA clearly helps people lose fat no matter when it's taken.

It should be common knowledge on this board that if you're using thermogenic combos such as E+C (or yohimbine) that they work best if you avoid insulogenic meals until well after you take the supps. They will work either way in terms of your long term goals, but having your coffee (or E+C) with a donut is kinda like two steps forward and one step back instead of just 2 steps forward. This is true for the donut even without the coffee though. But coffee before exercise or on an empty stomach is nothing to worry about and will in fact get you burning fat faster than without the stimulants. BTW, almost ANY drug that enhances lipolysis will, by definition, decrease insulin sensitivity and glucose disposal. This is obvious if you stop to think about the biochemistry of fat-burning.......yet even fat couch potatoes manage to lose some fat taking EC stacks.
 
I agree w/ ms. This is just too much for me.. i've followed diets where coffee was my ECA so to speak. And I can tell you that compared to identical diets w/o coffee, I did lose more on the coffee diet. I also would have to say that if you are right omega, that the positive effects coffee has on fat loss outweigh the possible negative ones it has on insulin sensitivity.
 
caffeine

What if you're bulking? The insulin sensitivity directly affects muscle growth does it not? The positive effects, like fat loss, don't really mean much when your stuffing yourself with 3500 calories a day! But the negative effects on muscle growth..thats scary.
 
Agreed HappyFunBall. If you're "bulking" then caffeine intake should be minimal to nil. If you're "cutting" then gradually crank up the volume. Just like any other 'fat burner'.

Of course the majority of Americans are "bulking" in one way or another, so the best advice I can give is to avoid caffeine if your calorie intake is in excess of your calories burned. As soon as you hit a negative calorie balance then I think that caffeine is your friend.

Even better advice is to avoid insulogenic foods. Blaming caffeine is kinda like blaming the messenger!
 
Did I miss something?

I wish I saw this last night.

Just as a side note, besides MS taking care of disputing these idiotic claims; have any of you TESTED your blood glucose levels and fat stores with drinking and not drinking coffee? I have and found no difference, whether bulking or not. My mmol/dl was the safe, the time of glucose disposal was the same and my bodyfat was the same. NO changes, w/ or w/o.....

Mr.X
 
caffeine

Caffeine has been studied for 100 years or so and has never been conclusively shown to be harmful, if taken in moderation. Studies like this get a lot of attention (for the researcher and the University) because everyone drinks coffee and freaks out.

I'd take these kind of studies with a grain of salt, but its interesting and worth watching for more studies on caffeine in the future.

I'm not drinking coffee anymore when bulking though, just to play it safe. :angel:
 
Although I am not disputing much of the original claims posted by OMEGA are 'idiotic' when appled to dieting bodybuilders, I will partially stick up for my feeling that caffeine is NOT something that your average overweight western couch potato should be drinking lots of (as they do, ususally at StarBuck's with some high fat/high sugar thingy as well). Even worse is the growing consumption of high sugar caffeineated beverages such as "V", "Red Bull" etc... that young folks like to scoff down with lots of greasy fried fast foods or alcohol......

You would not be able to detect caffeine's 'insulogenic' effects with a blood glucose test. It only raises INSULIN levels, not blood glucose levels, therefore only an insulin test would detect this increase in insulin resistance. This is much the same as many westerners who have some degree of insulin resistance, yet pass their fasting blood glucose test with flying colors. This is a misleading and downright dumb blood test to do IMHO because it reassures insulin resistant folks that there is nothing wrong when in fact they are in a pre-diabetic condition.

BUT to some degree you have to become insulin resistant to lose fat (due to the high blood levels of free fatty acids that appear when you're burning fat). So use caffeine like any other drug-at the right time with the right diet and training-and I promise you it won't make you fatter!
 
This winter while "bulking", i have been taking my Ephedrine/caffeine 1-2 X's per day, especially on workout days. I have managed to stay leaner and a little more vascular in comparison to when I cut it out completely while bulking from previous years.

I take it between meals, for obvious reasons as MS has stated. I also take ALA with almost every meal, so maybe that will have an effect with its use as well.

I think as long as you pick smart carb meals that are relatively low GI with low-mod fat, then insulin sensitivity will be of no problem with caffeine, even if following a hypercaloric diet. ALA and daily exrcising and weight lifting will help even more.

BMJ
 
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