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brazilian jiu jitsu vs
- Thread starter Yarg!
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philipusmcr
New member
Id rather fight a black belt in any of those four (or experienced in muay thai), than a black belt in BJJ. If you know BJJ, you can always bring them to your world and mess them up (the ground). Where as, if youre any of these others(stand up), once your down, you have nothing and the BJJ can just keep taking u down. But of those 4, Id most rather not fight a muay thai guy, theyre tough as hell and strikes won't phase them.
now of course everybody in mma competitions are crosstrained so its not so much style verse style anymore. if u check out the early UFCs u could see that royce gracie(BJJ) took out much bigger stronger guys that were well trained in karate, wrestling, etc., and he wasnt even the best at bjj in his own family.
The Angry Mule
New member
If it was to stay on the feet I wouldnt want to to fight a thai boxer,those bastards are as tough as nails
XBiker
Well-known member
Fighting 1 on 1, BJJ is great.
Enter in to a fight with multiples (2+) and all your groundwork will get your ass stomped.
Bruce Lee confirmed what the UFC and the rest of the MMA competitive fighting has recently validated.
You have to be a well rounded fighter. Stand up boxing and kicks, wrestling takedowns/throws, ground and pound and finally submission moves.
Enter in to a fight with multiples (2+) and all your groundwork will get your ass stomped.
Bruce Lee confirmed what the UFC and the rest of the MMA competitive fighting has recently validated.
You have to be a well rounded fighter. Stand up boxing and kicks, wrestling takedowns/throws, ground and pound and finally submission moves.
shamrock11
New member
LOL I'm a Tae Kwon Do black belt and I would and have fought a BJJ black belt. The thing about BJJ is if they can't get you down beating there ass is simple. All you need is a good sprawl and the fight is basically won. It dosen't matter what style you take or what art your in. It all a matter of how intelligently you use what you know and how well you know the art of the person you up against. While in my tae kwon do training I had to study other arts and find there strength and weaknesses. All arts have a weakness and that is where you want the fight to be.
shamrock11
New member
No All martial arts have a weakness. As human beings we have weaknesses and as such will we have wealnesses in our martial arts.
shamrock11 said:
There are BBJ players who have defeated all kinds of great fighters, Hoyce Gracie for example, 400 plus wins, against all kinds of opponents, if you train BJJ you also train how to take a guy down no matter what. just like Kick boxers would train to try to stay on his feet, however it is a little easier to take someone down rather than not get taken down, a good sprawl can still be defeated, a good BJJ fighter will get you to the ground, but you are right in the fact that everything has a weakness, u just have to be intelligent enough to know what it is and how to beat it. The smartest guy usually wins the fight.
Yarg!
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ahh i see your point. but what exactly would be vale tudo or krav maga's weakness? i mean they lack rigid formality, they are definately effective in both striking and submission and quite adept at countering such moves. some martial arts like karate , and kung fu would for instance emphasize strikes only.
Krav - they take the most common attack situations and drill simple and brutal responses into you very relentlessly. The weakness is the lack of flexibility and lack of diversity of technique
vale tudo isn't a fighting style, just another way of saying "no holds barred"
vale tudo isn't a fighting style, just another way of saying "no holds barred"
Big Rick Rock
istrator
shamrock11 said:
majutsu
Well-known member
Great thread!
It would be totally analogous to ask, "What single weight exercise will give me the best body?"
Answer: none of them.
But mix all free weight exercises (heavy power work, light speed and plyometric work, and middle range repetition to failure work), machines, and body weight/free weight training in a unique package that together addresses your weaknesses and maximizes your strengths, and you have a body well-tuned and trained to meet your demands.
I guess you could call this jeet kune do, but JKD is really a pan-style philosophy rather than a particular style of training. And unfortunately, JKD is more often a marketing term for scams nowadays.
What works best is to train your body and to learn techniques that together enable you to move your body through space so as to increase your chance of survival when facing any situation unarmed. This is probably an impossible task to finish anyway. . . But it's like a chess game. There is no killer move that always wins. It all depends on what is happening, what the evil forces of destruction (i.e. your opponents) are doing, your physical, mental and environmental limitations at that moment, etc. You make the best move you can come up with at the moment in a fluid way.
Practically, the best thing to do is to take a little of this until you're tired of it, then take a little of that, and so on. Synthesize it so it's right for you. Then expose your ongoing work to the laboratory of real combat (MMA and NHB most safely) to test your ideas, discard the losers and keep the winners.
It would be totally analogous to ask, "What single weight exercise will give me the best body?"
Answer: none of them.
But mix all free weight exercises (heavy power work, light speed and plyometric work, and middle range repetition to failure work), machines, and body weight/free weight training in a unique package that together addresses your weaknesses and maximizes your strengths, and you have a body well-tuned and trained to meet your demands.
I guess you could call this jeet kune do, but JKD is really a pan-style philosophy rather than a particular style of training. And unfortunately, JKD is more often a marketing term for scams nowadays.
What works best is to train your body and to learn techniques that together enable you to move your body through space so as to increase your chance of survival when facing any situation unarmed. This is probably an impossible task to finish anyway. . . But it's like a chess game. There is no killer move that always wins. It all depends on what is happening, what the evil forces of destruction (i.e. your opponents) are doing, your physical, mental and environmental limitations at that moment, etc. You make the best move you can come up with at the moment in a fluid way.
Practically, the best thing to do is to take a little of this until you're tired of it, then take a little of that, and so on. Synthesize it so it's right for you. Then expose your ongoing work to the laboratory of real combat (MMA and NHB most safely) to test your ideas, discard the losers and keep the winners.
Last edited:
Freak Nasty
New member
Ive done MT, FMA, JKD and currently am a blue belt in BJJ. In the beginning I was like nothing can beat BJJ, but here is the catcher:
vs karate and kung fu:
JKD/KF might give the BJJ player some reluctence to go in for the leg takedowns, but other take downs are only a clinch away. Karate chops and stuff like that have defenses in BJJ. Kicks in KF are meant for distractive purposes to get close in and maybe do some traping. Again be careful. this closeness is what the BJJer likes. One minute your going in for a pak-sau and the next your on your back getting arm-barred.
vs TKD: As with other stand up arts you got to watch the hands. Unfortantly for TKD'ers their legs are their main weapons. With no knee development in tkd they are a easy target to grab the leg or go for hip throws. Get in close and throw is their way to defeat. Once on the ground it might as well be a beagle vs a lion.
vs MT:
This martial arts is dangerous for the BJJ player. For the BJJ player (BJJP) he must get the MT Player (MTP) on the ground to be effective. The clinch will be no good because MTP's can do serious damage from the clinch. The best advice is to maybe grab a leg during a kick (yes it can be done) and go for the take down. Single and double legs can be dangerious because of knees.
Hands are out question as well. Get clocked by a MT and watch the BJJer go down. Sure 95% of the fights end on the ground. Why? Cause you were knocked out or you got a sucessful takedown?
vs karate and kung fu:
JKD/KF might give the BJJ player some reluctence to go in for the leg takedowns, but other take downs are only a clinch away. Karate chops and stuff like that have defenses in BJJ. Kicks in KF are meant for distractive purposes to get close in and maybe do some traping. Again be careful. this closeness is what the BJJer likes. One minute your going in for a pak-sau and the next your on your back getting arm-barred.
vs TKD: As with other stand up arts you got to watch the hands. Unfortantly for TKD'ers their legs are their main weapons. With no knee development in tkd they are a easy target to grab the leg or go for hip throws. Get in close and throw is their way to defeat. Once on the ground it might as well be a beagle vs a lion.
vs MT:
This martial arts is dangerous for the BJJ player. For the BJJ player (BJJP) he must get the MT Player (MTP) on the ground to be effective. The clinch will be no good because MTP's can do serious damage from the clinch. The best advice is to maybe grab a leg during a kick (yes it can be done) and go for the take down. Single and double legs can be dangerious because of knees.
Hands are out question as well. Get clocked by a MT and watch the BJJer go down. Sure 95% of the fights end on the ground. Why? Cause you were knocked out or you got a sucessful takedown?
shamrock11
New member
One of the biggest things I see in this thread and about bjj is people keep bringing up the gracie's and how many people they have defeated. This is all well and good, but just b/c they have done it doesn't mean everyone who takes bjj can do it. You are taking some of the top bjj practionicers and saying everyone who take bjj can do this, not by far. You can't take the best people in an art and say it great b/c these great fighter an beat these people. What make an art great is being able to take the average fighter and make him better. As I have said many times, it's not the art that make the fighter it the fighter that makes the art. If you take your art seriously and use it to the best of it's ability you can stand up against anyone. You may not win everytime (and nobody ever does), but you can hold your own. It's all about how INTELLIGENTLY you use what you know.
Big Rick Rock
istrator
casualbb said:
Yeah, well in a street fight I would dig my fingers deep into his eye sockets and twist... I guess we are talking about competition more so than street fighting... are we?
-BRR
Ripped2Shredds
New member
I would have to say anyone who has a good Kick boxing and Muay Thai skills are FAR better off on there feet, BJJ is a pure ground game, but...I wrestled for 15 years, I fought a guy about 3 weeks ago that is a well known kick boxer in the area, he jabbed me in the nose, kicked me in the side, he was off balance so I shot in deep, he bellied out after hitting a table and on the way down i heard him think to him think to him self...."I'm screwed"....and then from there i pounded him until the cops came, but he was 35 and i was 20, walked away with a lil bruise on the lip....LOL...So i feel that a good ground game is important, but I trained Russian SAMBO for 8 years with the same wrestling instructor, and BJJ for 2, judo for 2, pretty well mixed, but never did boxing or stand up till now, Muay Thai and kick boxing...so if u like BJJ, try kick boxing or something, be well versed, cause in a bar its usually like 3-4 punches then someon goes to the ground, but you wont use an armbar there, allthough i did see a guys arm snap in Woody's one night, dude was in some pain from a armbar...lol
Ripped2Shredds
New member
yes sir, my good friends started at 3, my first match was on February 23rd, 1990. I was in a tournament of 16 people and placed third...My dad was so freaking stoked, put it this way, gorwing up in grade school, i never had a problem defending my self, lol...so parents get your kids involved in wrestling young, it teaches hard values and establishes personal self gratitude. A lot of Politicians were former wrestlers, I'm not talking about Jessy the Body Ventura, but like Dick Cheney, and there are others, btw, i didn tmean to steal this post...But to answer your question, I wrslted for the Little Devils at age 5, till 14, then in highschool i wreslted for Belleville West High School, then for SIUE, now I am done with god blessed knee problems, maybe the wrestling for 15 years...
Strangle Hold
New member
If the choices had no BJJ it would be fairly easy.
You say that all you need to do is sprawl and it won't get to the ground?
I've never not gotten someone down.
Doesn't always happen on the first attempt but I do end up getting them down.
My size helps though as I'm 250 pounds....
With a wrestling background before Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
You say that all you need to do is sprawl and it won't get to the ground?
I've never not gotten someone down.
Doesn't always happen on the first attempt but I do end up getting them down.
My size helps though as I'm 250 pounds....
With a wrestling background before Gracie Jiu Jitsu.
philipusmcr said:
if that last part where true there would be a lot more draws in Muay Thai don't you think?
you are right tho that is some serious hitting power
but you can't say that because BJJ is grappling based they'll easily take down the other guys
that just isn't how it works
especially if the other guys have trained with some takedown defence
a BJJ Black Belt is hell to deal with on the ground but if he has a weakstriking game work takedown defence and he's just another newbie basically
Freak Nasty said:
now this is what I like to see
someone who dosn't think their style is a Godsend and makes them unstoppable
your knowlege of BJJ's limitations probubly makes you more dangerous to a Mixed fighter then a better grappler who thinks he's unstoppable
anyway the Clinch isn't the best place for a takedown against everyone
like you said MT guys are bad to Clinch with
I asked you this somewhere dunno if you answered
do you train at Allience up in Charlotte your avatar looks familar but the pic is so little
Strangle Hold said:
yah size helps a lot
I'm 265 with very minimal take down training and I can get people down pretty easily (unless they are signifigantly better trained then me) and hell even then if I hook them I can generally knock them down anyway
or just run headlong into them
I'm hoping to have a very solid Takedown defence and basically Chuck Lidell people if I compete
Ianhockey91
New member
VALE TUDO, its such a nice mix between muay thai and bjj.
Saintinistic
New member
too many factors here.
though the more varied a person is, the more effective their stratergies and potential for win.
health and fitness is another.
also, if it was between 2 strangers in a bar, what makes anyone think they will fight fair to the codes. the gym isnt the street. people dont stop when you tap out, so having a dirty trick up your sleeve is essential IMO. even if its spitting a mouthful of beer at them as you fire into them. anything that gives an advantage.
though the more varied a person is, the more effective their stratergies and potential for win.
health and fitness is another.
also, if it was between 2 strangers in a bar, what makes anyone think they will fight fair to the codes. the gym isnt the street. people dont stop when you tap out, so having a dirty trick up your sleeve is essential IMO. even if its spitting a mouthful of beer at them as you fire into them. anything that gives an advantage.
Djimbe
New member
Id say someone from Gao System Baguazhang that trained HARD for San Da/Lei Tai Tournaments and Matches .
I just think they are the most realistic rulesets . Striking , Clinch , Throws , Stomps , Joitnwork , takedown Defense - you cant slouch ANYWHERE - but no unlimited time limit to Roll about and Inch for Position (so you have to have 1-5 GO TO locks and dump the crap that really wouldnt work in a Fight)
I just think they are the most realistic rulesets . Striking , Clinch , Throws , Stomps , Joitnwork , takedown Defense - you cant slouch ANYWHERE - but no unlimited time limit to Roll about and Inch for Position (so you have to have 1-5 GO TO locks and dump the crap that really wouldnt work in a Fight)
Rex
New member
I was at my step-sis' graduation party last night, and one of her friends is a belt holder for his weight class [150 something] in JJ. Some how the conversation got to who can take who, and one of his friends kept saying how'd the belt holder can take anyone blah blah blah. Another kid asked me if I thought I could take the JJ kid. Of course I'm not going to say no. The first kid tries talking it up. I finally got sick of it and said "Look. I'm sure he's a great martial artist, he must be to hold a belt. I don't want to fight him, but if I did I won't be afraid to smash a bottle over his head, rip his balls out of his scrotum, and feel confident in my ability to come out on top. I fight dirty, which is why I don't like to fight." Conversation ended on that topic.
I want to study JJ/BJJ when I am permanently living in my area again, and can respect the art, but damn it a belt doesn't mean shit at a party equipped with weapons of opportunity.
The whole incident irritated me.
I want to study JJ/BJJ when I am permanently living in my area again, and can respect the art, but damn it a belt doesn't mean shit at a party equipped with weapons of opportunity.
The whole incident irritated me.
Djimbe
New member
Kane Fan said:
It SEEMS like it would be , but BELIEVE me there is a HUGE difference when youre NOT fighting on a Mat and you only have 30-60 seconds (dep on Ruleset) to secure a Lock/Tap . look how long it can take EVEN A GRACIE to secure a Lock ! and MOST BJJers are NO Gracies ! Not by a LONG shot ! The WHOLE way you look at Tactics changes by force from the (current) MMA mindset , and what you spend your time working on does as well . and the Tactics of the G&P game are a LO more Brutal when the rear of your skull is not protected by a Mat .
Djimbe
New member
wich is part of the Illusion/Delusion of BJJ and the current trends in (M)MA !
I mean , Judo had it right all along , one perfect throw and the fight is over !
The PROBLEM is when we confuse the Practice environment (the MAT) for the real world . Mats were Introduced in Judo/JuJiutsu for the same reason that Cups , Mouthpieces , Headgear , shinguards , and Boxing Gloves were - so that we could PRACTICE what would be Painful WITHOUT said gear . If in MMA Matches the floor was Hard and the "Cage" was Brick or Stone the Import of the "Ground Game" would be far less Emphasised , though still not Nonexistant by any means . But now the Tactics and style developed specificaly and ONLY for the Mat Environments are being touted as "REAL" fighting , wich it , in fact , is not . MOST of the MA "Heroes" touted today as the "Worlds Greatest Fighters" would likely quickly be eaten alive in pretty much any Maximum Security Prison by pretty much anyone with any size on them that had managed to siurvive a few years in said environment if the Fight itself were to the death . Its pretty hard to take the Fight to the Ground when youre basically fighting in a Phone Booth .
But you would NOT have BJJ schools being run by purple (or even BLUE) belts in small-town USA charging +$200/mo for their services .
I mean , Judo had it right all along , one perfect throw and the fight is over !
The PROBLEM is when we confuse the Practice environment (the MAT) for the real world . Mats were Introduced in Judo/JuJiutsu for the same reason that Cups , Mouthpieces , Headgear , shinguards , and Boxing Gloves were - so that we could PRACTICE what would be Painful WITHOUT said gear . If in MMA Matches the floor was Hard and the "Cage" was Brick or Stone the Import of the "Ground Game" would be far less Emphasised , though still not Nonexistant by any means . But now the Tactics and style developed specificaly and ONLY for the Mat Environments are being touted as "REAL" fighting , wich it , in fact , is not . MOST of the MA "Heroes" touted today as the "Worlds Greatest Fighters" would likely quickly be eaten alive in pretty much any Maximum Security Prison by pretty much anyone with any size on them that had managed to siurvive a few years in said environment if the Fight itself were to the death . Its pretty hard to take the Fight to the Ground when youre basically fighting in a Phone Booth .
But you would NOT have BJJ schools being run by purple (or even BLUE) belts in small-town USA charging +$200/mo for their services .
Ripped2Shredds
New member
Just like in the wild, GO FOR THE THROAT...simple enough, 5lbs of pressure to the jugular and someone is dead. Like a lion or pit bull, to the throat and you win, simple enough.
MikeMartial
New member
Yarg! said:karate
taw kwan do
muay thai
kung fu
discuss, how well u think bjj would fare against those (all experienced practioners).
It's not the style, it's the fighter.
That being said, anyone versed in multiple arts will have "more tools in teh toolbox", so to speak.
Out of the three, BJJ is the most well rounded---but also the recent flavor of the month.
Never heard of "taw kwan do".
Djimbe
New member
MikeMartial said:
How so ?
The Avg BJJ (only) student cant take a swing at you worth a damn . Seriously .
And how , EXACTLY is it more "Well Rounded" than "Kung Fu" ? Wich SYSTEM of KF ? I mean , seeing as how I can rattle off well over a DOZEN systems of "Kung Fu" that not only have Striking but Grappling , Physical Fitness , and Weapons Elements , not to mention that they manage to do so without Beltrankings or "Traditionalistic" trappings of amy kind .
Never heard of "taw kwan do".
The "W" key is RIGHT next to the "E" key . Its a common typoe .
MikeMartial
New member
Djimbe said:
Good point.
I see you like Kung Fu
Sarcasm. Not on the keyboard. Easy to miss
Undertow503
New member
Here's Royce Gracie owning a Kung Fu Master, I'm sure some of you seen this clip before. I, myself train in TaeKwonDo(WTF) with Hapkido.
http://www.compfused.com/filedl1/25qstcq/Royce_Gracie_vs_Kung_Fu_Expert.wmv
It didn't seem to me the Kung Fu expert try to do much. Yawn, a couple kicks?
http://www.compfused.com/filedl1/25qstcq/Royce_Gracie_vs_Kung_Fu_Expert.wmv
It didn't seem to me the Kung Fu expert try to do much. Yawn, a couple kicks?
Djimbe
New member
Why is it on the internet that everyone that has taken a couple of classes in Chinese Martial Arts is suddenly "A KOOOHHNG FFFEEEEWWWW EXPERT !!!" ? Or even a couple of years ? NOBODY in the CMA community knew who Delucia was until he fought Gracie , and he wasnt ready for him like LOTS of other ppl werent . So what ? He beats BJJ guys too , does that mean that BJJ sucks ?
Seriously dude , The Gracies HAVE NO JOBS and theyve been training in MA since like BIRTH and they have like NINTEY siblings and cousins and junk to Spar with TWENTY HOURS A DAY ! Of COURSE they can beat up most ppl ! Hell , I dont care if your style is FLUNG POO DOE you would SO kick MAJOR ASS at it if all you did was train and Spar and eat and Sleep and train some more at it . Im sure your "Buttpicker Attack" (Or whatever" would be awesome and unstoppable .
The Gracies arent really good Examples/representatives of BJJ more as they are what you can achieve if you have no Job and train in MA all day long . Ive known guys from systems that I frankly think SUCK ASS and Id SO not want to fight that guy that trains like its his Job/calling at it than the guy that trains 4 hours/week at the deadliest Ninja-Fu available . but the fact is that most ppl DONT train 10+hours/day even one day in there entire lives - even the ones that do MAs for DECADES in some cases - and even LESS of those that CAN have the kind of luxury to be SURROUNDED by sparring partners with that same luxury and at that same level , you know ?
Seriously dude , The Gracies HAVE NO JOBS and theyve been training in MA since like BIRTH and they have like NINTEY siblings and cousins and junk to Spar with TWENTY HOURS A DAY ! Of COURSE they can beat up most ppl ! Hell , I dont care if your style is FLUNG POO DOE you would SO kick MAJOR ASS at it if all you did was train and Spar and eat and Sleep and train some more at it . Im sure your "Buttpicker Attack" (Or whatever" would be awesome and unstoppable .
The Gracies arent really good Examples/representatives of BJJ more as they are what you can achieve if you have no Job and train in MA all day long . Ive known guys from systems that I frankly think SUCK ASS and Id SO not want to fight that guy that trains like its his Job/calling at it than the guy that trains 4 hours/week at the deadliest Ninja-Fu available . but the fact is that most ppl DONT train 10+hours/day even one day in there entire lives - even the ones that do MAs for DECADES in some cases - and even LESS of those that CAN have the kind of luxury to be SURROUNDED by sparring partners with that same luxury and at that same level , you know ?
Djimbe
New member
MikeMartial said:I see you like Kung Fu
I like SOME CMAs , others I frankly think are outmoded , outdated, or just plain SUCK from a technology standpoint .
THAT BEING SAID :
I think that at the CORE Martial Arts are about applying our THINKING SCIENTIFIC MINDS to fighting , and I find it difficult to believe that people that arent able to diferentiate between TOTALLY different styles JUST because they HAPPEN to come from the same country are totally incapable of formulating a scientific (and possibly even Coherent) thought on their own .
SOME "Kung Fu" is full of High Stances and Kicking , some "Kung Fu" is about Low Stances and Throwing - Some "Kung Fu" favours an Offensive mentality, some Defensive , some "Kung Fu" is about develpoing body hardness to a level that would make the most hardcore masochists puke , and some "Kung Fu" is about softness to a level that when a CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL Muay thai practitioner kicks you he describes it as "Like Kicking Cotton Candy" .
Do I like "Kung Fu" ?
I like GOOD "Kung Fu"
But I also like GOOD MA from ANYWHERE , not just China .
Djimbe said:
yah willingness to hurt people and actual experience doing it is better then polished skill
but as I am not willing to go out and beat the shit out of people to get my training I'll go with plished skill and hope for the best lol
I like Judo tho at least the idea of it
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