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Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignore...

psychedout

New member
Lets talk side effects of AAS use for a bit.

Blood pressure and cholesterol are the 2 most serious side effects that can come of AAS use. These side effects are regulary linked to death.

Lets list some sides to get us thinking:

Liver problems -- the liver is quite an amazing organ. It has the ability to repair itself. Throw in some milk thistle, NAC, Tylers Liver Detox, Liv-52, whatever your hearts content, and you should have no problems here... ever! Unless you push the definition of abuse to the extreme -- but we are considering normal AAS users.

Acne -- there is nothing physcially harmful about having acne.

Roid rage -- don't tell me its a myth. Drugs such as tren and halo have been known to dispell this myth. But as a side effect, it really isn't deterimental to health, unless of course you get killed in a fight brought on by rage -- however most of us are responsible and would not let such an incident happen.

Permanent HTPA shutdown -- what does this mean? You will permanently have low testosterone levels while not cycling. A general decrease in the feeling of overall wellbeing and mood will occur, but nothing physically that can kill you.

Gyno (aka bitch tits) -- sure having a nice set of double D boobs is nice, but not when you are the one who has them. Nonetheless this side effect poses no threat to physical health.

Hair loss -- one of the most common side effects out there; once again no risk whatsoever to physical health.

Prostate enlargement -- increases the risk of prostate cancer. Not a direct effect on death however.

Permanently Reduced Sperm Count (sterilization) -- no being able to have children would be mentally difficult; however, there are no physical side effects. Adoption may be a good idea here.


Here is how these side effects are commonly and regularly combatted:

Liver problems -- various liver protectors listed above; or simply stay away from oral usage.

Acne -- accutane (under doctor supervision), vit b5, gugglesterones, etc.

Roid rage -- control yourself; step back and take a deep breath.

HPTA shutdown -- taking proper time off between cycles, running a heavy PCT, etc.

Gyno -- liquidex and femera are most commonly used, as well as nolvadex. Gyno surgery is usually the last resort -- for extreme situations normally.

Hair loss -- finasteride, nizoral shampoo, etc; there are 100's of hairloss products out there

Prostate enlargement -- finasteride and saw palmetto are prostate friendly agents.

Permanently Reduced Sperm Count (sterilization) -- taking time off between cycles is really what most people do to avoid this.


What is my point of all of this?

A large portion of the bodybuilding community goes through great steps to ensure some side effects (as listed above) are kept under control.

Yet cholesterol and bloodpressure are largely neglected.

You don't see many people adding Polisocanol and Niacin to a cycle to control cholesterol. Nor do you see people adding Coenzyme Q10 or Garlic to their cycles. And how often do you here: 'I am bulking, but still doing cardio to help control blood pressure and cholesterol' -- not often enough.

My point is hereby as follows: 'The two most serious side effects out there; high blood pressure and bad cholesterol are the two most neglected side effects out there. Why? Why? Why?'
 
Why? Pretty simple I think. Because they're the ones that produce the least visible side effects, and also the side effects that don't show up till years down the road. Acne, gyno, rage, hair loss, all of those are visible external signs. Liver problems are about the only internal organ that people check. BP you'll never see unless you get nose-bleeds, which aren't common, and cholesterol, no one ever checks that and you'll never feel a thing till you drop dead from a massive MI. Guess it's why they call HBP and cholesterol "silent killers"... no one talks about them or notices them till it's too late.
 
Lowest said:
Why? Pretty simple I think. Because they're the ones that produce the least visible side effects, and also the side effects that don't show up till years down the road. Acne, gyno, rage, hair loss, all of those are visible external signs. Liver problems are about the only internal organ that people check. BP you'll never see unless you get nose-bleeds, which aren't common, and cholesterol, no one ever checks that and you'll never feel a thing till you drop dead from a massive MI. Guess it's why they call HBP and cholesterol "silent killers"... no one talks about them or notices them till it's too late.

That was a very good answer as to why. :)
 
A compliment from a guy with half as many posts as days I've been alive? Lol, I'm blushing, thanks bro... sometimes I wax philosophical when I'm bored :)
 
I agree they are widely ignored. I do disagree though that HPTA doesn't have negative physical effects.

Monitoring your blood pressure is easy. I just use a cuff and stethoscope I bought from the local pharmacy. They are cheap and taking your BP is easy. Getting cholesterol checked is one of the cheapest tests yet many people just don't care.
 
Also, Garlic, policosanol. COq10, proscar, husk fiber, phytosterols, and green tea are my heart/prostate staples for every cycle. BP is checked often as well.
 
F buddy said:
BTW, ( fire extinguisher ready), I think the answer is yes!


That's all going to depend on your definition of safe. IMO, I don't think statins OR 17-aa's are "safe".
 
psychedout said:
Lets talk side effects of AAS use for a bit.

Blood pressure and cholesterol are the 2 most serious side effects that can come of AAS use. These side effects are regulary linked to death.

Lets list some sides to get us thinking:

Liver problems -- the liver is quite an amazing organ. It has the ability to repair itself. Throw in some milk thistle, NAC, Tylers Liver Detox, Liv-52, whatever your hearts content, and you should have no problems here... ever! Unless you push the definition of abuse to the extreme -- but we are considering normal AAS users.

Acne -- there is nothing physcially harmful about having acne.

Roid rage -- don't tell me its a myth. Drugs such as tren and halo have been known to dispell this myth. But as a side effect, it really isn't deterimental to health, unless of course you get killed in a fight brought on by rage -- however most of us are responsible and would not let such an incident happen.

Permanent HTPA shutdown -- what does this mean? You will permanently have low testosterone levels while not cycling. A general decrease in the feeling of overall wellbeing and mood will occur, but nothing physically that can kill you.

Gyno (aka bitch tits) -- sure having a nice set of double D boobs is nice, but not when you are the one who has them. Nonetheless this side effect poses no threat to physical health.

Hair loss -- one of the most common side effects out there; once again no risk whatsoever to physical health.

Prostate enlargement -- increases the risk of prostate cancer. Not a direct effect on death however.

Permanently Reduced Sperm Count (sterilization) -- no being able to have children would be mentally difficult; however, there are no physical side effects. Adoption may be a good idea here.


Here is how these side effects are commonly and regularly combatted:

Liver problems -- various liver protectors listed above; or simply stay away from oral usage.

Acne -- accutane (under doctor supervision), vit b5, gugglesterones, etc.

Roid rage -- control yourself; step back and take a deep breath.

HPTA shutdown -- taking proper time off between cycles, running a heavy PCT, etc.

Gyno -- liquidex and femera are most commonly used, as well as nolvadex. Gyno surgery is usually the last resort -- for extreme situations normally.

Hair loss -- finasteride, nizoral shampoo, etc; there are 100's of hairloss products out there

Prostate enlargement -- finasteride and saw palmetto are prostate friendly agents.

Permanently Reduced Sperm Count (sterilization) -- taking time off between cycles is really what most people do to avoid this.


What is my point of all of this?

A large portion of the bodybuilding community goes through great steps to ensure some side effects (as listed above) are kept under control.

Yet cholesterol and bloodpressure are largely neglected.

You don't see many people adding Polisocanol and Niacin to a cycle to control cholesterol. Nor do you see people adding Coenzyme Q10 or Garlic to their cycles. And how often do you here: 'I am bulking, but still doing cardio to help control blood pressure and cholesterol' -- not often enough.

My point is hereby as follows: 'The two most serious side effects out there; high blood pressure and bad cholesterol are the two most neglected side effects out there. Why? Why? Why?'
What?? Dude I hate your posts, gyno? Not everyone gets it, just use slow acting shit and you'll be fine.

Hair loss? If it runs in the family, you got it!

Permanent HPTA shutdown?? And you're gonna back this up with what???

Reduced sperm count permanentely? Again this is not for everybody.

Dude, nobody's going to have liver problems unless they do dbol year round and 1g a day. And staying away from oral steroids? You gotta be kidding me. Quit posting bullshit like this, you sound like the MEDIA!
 
How much do you think Cholesterol is raised while on, and how long are those levels high. That is why it is not a real concern. If you already have high levels then you are adding to a preexisting problem.

Most guys are on for only 10-15 weeks. That is not a long time.
I have had naturally high Cholesterol (in the 300’s) my whole life. I am 37 and had a series of heart tests. No BLOCKAGE! My levels have been high for years, so 10 weeks is not much time. I do need to take medication now, but the problem went undetected for years.

I would advise that everyone get their levels checked. Not everyone is fortunate like me.

I would not panic about Cholesterol increase from AAS use. Most AAS users compensate with a good diet that then helps levels.
 
=Viking= said:
How much do you think Cholesterol is raised while on, and how long are those levels high. That is why it is not a real concern. If you already have high levels then you are adding to a preexisting problem.

Most guys are on for only 10-15 weeks. That is not a long time.
I have had naturally high Cholesterol (in the 300’s) my whole life. I am 37 and had a series of heart tests. No BLOCKAGE! My levels have been high for years, so 10 weeks is not much time. I do need to take medication now, but the problem went undetected for years.

I would advise that everyone get their levels checked. Not everyone is fortunate like me.

I would not panic about Cholesterol increase from AAS use. Most AAS users compensate with a good diet that then helps levels.

Yes, 10-15 weeks AT A TIME. If you consider the general rule of time on equals time off (which alot of people are never off), that's half of every year with sometimes dangerously high levels. Over a lifetime of juicing, that's a long time w/ elevated levels. This of course all depends on what you take.
 
Right On! Bro. I found out about cholesterol and the end of my last cycle. My main problem was trying to rid myself of estrogen. My LDL was 190 and my HDL was 15! My doc put me on Lipotor. In 2 weeks my LDL was 70 and my HDL was 30. I've always had a good cholesterol profile until AAS use. Now I know what I need to monitor more closely.

:garza:
 
psychedout said:
Lets talk side effects of AAS use for a bit.

ok so cholesterol is a problem for most on a cycle would it be prudent to use lipitor or statin drug on a cycle,policonasols,really don't seem to work for some.
 
THIS is the exact same reason I had a heart attack 4 weeks ago! I had a blood clot that blocked my main coronary artery on the right side of my heart. Long story but Basically It was because of all the anti e's I used. Hell I striped all estrogen and prolactin out of my body and did not know how dangerous that was until it was too late. :(

My arteries where fine my BP was always borderline. 140/80 My cholesterol was fine BUT they said I did not have enough good cholesterol and that can be the same as the bad. I took my last shot Mid July and had a heart attack August 30.

They did a very through blood work and could not find anything that would cause a guy my age to have clots. They said steroids can cause thickening of the blood but they. I did some research on my own and I am almost positive that is what caused it.






boogersnax said:
Right On! Bro. I found out about cholesterol and the end of my last cycle. My main problem was trying to rid myself of estrogen. My LDL was 190 and my HDL was 15! My doc put me on Lipotor. In 2 weeks my LDL was 70 and my HDL was 30. I've always had a good cholesterol profile until AAS use. Now I know what I need to monitor more closely.

:garza:
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

yomama said:
What?? Dude I hate your posts, gyno? Not everyone gets it, just use slow acting shit and you'll be fine.

Hair loss? If it runs in the family, you got it!

Permanent HPTA shutdown?? And you're gonna back this up with what???

Reduced sperm count permanentely? Again this is not for everybody.

Dude, nobody's going to have liver problems unless they do dbol year round and 1g a day. And staying away from oral steroids? You gotta be kidding me. Quit posting bullshit like this, you sound like the MEDIA!

I was gonna say... To quote the late Gorilla Monsoon, "this is a faountain of misinformation"
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

KA-BAR said:
THIS is the exact same reason I had a heart attack 4 weeks ago! I had a blood clot that blocked my main coronary artery on the right side of my heart. Long story but Basically It was because of all the anti e's I used. Hell I striped all estrogen and prolactin out of my body and did not know how dangerous that was until it was too late. :(

My arteries where fine my BP was always borderline. 140/80 My cholesterol was fine BUT they said I did not have enough good cholesterol and that can be the same as the bad. I took my last shot Mid July and had a heart attack August 30.

They did a very through blood work and could not find anything that would cause a guy my age to have clots. They said steroids can cause thickening of the blood but they. I did some research on my own and I am almost positive that is what caused it.

Is there a post where you explain why you think it happened because of the anti E?
 
KA-BAR said:
THIS is the exact same reason I had a heart attack 4 weeks ago! I had a blood clot that blocked my main coronary artery on the right side of my heart. Long story but Basically It was because of all the anti e's I used. Hell I striped all estrogen and prolactin out of my body and did not know how dangerous that was until it was too late. :(

My arteries where fine my BP was always borderline. 140/80 My cholesterol was fine BUT they said I did not have enough good cholesterol and that can be the same as the bad. I took my last shot Mid July and had a heart attack August 30.

They did a very through blood work and could not find anything that would cause a guy my age to have clots. They said steroids can cause thickening of the blood but they. I did some research on my own and I am almost positive that is what caused it.

How old are you?

What about Blood pressure medication I was prescribed Propranolol for a blood vessel I damaged in my neck that would cause major migrain headaches whenever my blood pressure rose. My doctor told me to take it 30 min before a workout and it helped a lot, but I saved em because the vessel healed and my headaches went away. Wouldn't it be good to take a medication like this for people at risk of heart attacks to help manage BP especially while working out?
 
what compounds were your staples KA-BAR? Sorry to hear about the heart attack too, that really sucks, glad you made it through though...
 
This is a great thread! I have been SO worried about lipid profile while I have been off and on cycles. My chol, LDL, and HDL have all been great up until i started using AAS-that is when they started going haywire, but never too extreme. I take Niacin now and policosanol ALL the time. The worst my HDL has been was 38, and my doctor recc Niacin and aspirin daily (family history of heart disease is strong). Now I'm thinking about doing another inj only cycle, but hesitant. Anyway, it is VERY VERY important to monitor lipid profile and BP during a AAS cycle.
 
yomama said:
What?? Dude I hate your posts, gyno? Not everyone gets it, just use slow acting shit and you'll be fine.

Hair loss? If it runs in the family, you got it!

Permanent HPTA shutdown?? And you're gonna back this up with what???

Reduced sperm count permanentely? Again this is not for everybody.

Dude, nobody's going to have liver problems unless they do dbol year round and 1g a day. And staying away from oral steroids? You gotta be kidding me. Quit posting bullshit like this, you sound like the MEDIA!

LOLOLOLOL at you!

You completely missed the point of my post, and to be honest, I don't even think you read it properly if at all. You clearly aren't very smart.

If you were gyno prone, the last thing you would do is use slow acting AAS. You would use fast AAS.

The hair loss battle can be won -- even if genes are against you -- I know several individuals who are the winning side.

If you read where I discuss the liver -- you will see how I state that it is an amazing organ that can repair itself. And I said if you have liver problems STAY AWAY FROM ORALS. Good god! I cannot believe your bullshit.

I said permanetly reduced sperm count is a possibility of extended AAS use -- where did I say it happens to everyone? I don't see anywhere.

I sound like the media?!?! LoLoLoL. Right buddy.... right......
 
good post and good points!

karma to you.

i can say that in the beginning, i was someone foolish when it came to things like this. now when im i check the bloodpressure regularly and cholesterol too. when off i am not soo particular.

overall i would say the bbing community is becoming more aware of these issues -- however there is still a long way to go.
 
psychedout said:
Lets talk side effects of AAS use for a bit.

Blood pressure and cholesterol are the 2 most serious side effects that can come of AAS use. These side effects are regulary linked to death.

Lets list some sides to get us thinking:

Liver problems -- the liver is quite an amazing organ. It has the ability to repair itself. Throw in some milk thistle, NAC, Tylers Liver Detox, Liv-52, whatever your hearts content, and you should have no problems here... ever! Unless you push the definition of abuse to the extreme -- but we are considering normal AAS users.

Acne -- there is nothing physcially harmful about having acne.

Roid rage -- don't tell me its a myth. Drugs such as tren and halo have been known to dispell this myth. But as a side effect, it really isn't deterimental to health, unless of course you get killed in a fight brought on by rage -- however most of us are responsible and would not let such an incident happen.

Permanent HTPA shutdown -- what does this mean? You will permanently have low testosterone levels while not cycling. A general decrease in the feeling of overall wellbeing and mood will occur, but nothing physically that can kill you.

Gyno (aka bitch tits) -- sure having a nice set of double D boobs is nice, but not when you are the one who has them. Nonetheless this side effect poses no threat to physical health.

Hair loss -- one of the most common side effects out there; once again no risk whatsoever to physical health.

Prostate enlargement -- increases the risk of prostate cancer. Not a direct effect on death however.

Permanently Reduced Sperm Count (sterilization) -- no being able to have children would be mentally difficult; however, there are no physical side effects. Adoption may be a good idea here.


Here is how these side effects are commonly and regularly combatted:

Liver problems -- various liver protectors listed above; or simply stay away from oral usage.

Acne -- accutane (under doctor supervision), vit b5, gugglesterones, etc.

Roid rage -- control yourself; step back and take a deep breath.

HPTA shutdown -- taking proper time off between cycles, running a heavy PCT, etc.

Gyno -- liquidex and femera are most commonly used, as well as nolvadex. Gyno surgery is usually the last resort -- for extreme situations normally.

Hair loss -- finasteride, nizoral shampoo, etc; there are 100's of hairloss products out there

Prostate enlargement -- finasteride and saw palmetto are prostate friendly agents.

Permanently Reduced Sperm Count (sterilization) -- taking time off between cycles is really what most people do to avoid this.


What is my point of all of this?

A large portion of the bodybuilding community goes through great steps to ensure some side effects (as listed above) are kept under control.

Yet cholesterol and bloodpressure are largely neglected.

You don't see many people adding Polisocanol and Niacin to a cycle to control cholesterol. Nor do you see people adding Coenzyme Q10 or Garlic to their cycles. And how often do you here: 'I am bulking, but still doing cardio to help control blood pressure and cholesterol' -- not often enough.

My point is hereby as follows: 'The two most serious side effects out there; high blood pressure and bad cholesterol are the two most neglected side effects out there. Why? Why? Why?'


Last time i checked you only live once...once youre gone you wont have to worry about anything...be smart but take risks
 
detroitbodybuildertigers said:
Last time i checked you only live once...once youre gone you wont have to worry about anything...be smart but take risks


Will you say this when your 50 and have health problems?
 
detroitbodybuildertigers said:
Last time i checked you only live once...once youre gone you wont have to worry about anything...be smart but take risks

I kind of get the feeling that I am making some people think I am against AAS.

I am in no such manner.

All I am stating is that many neglect a health problems (notice I say many, not all). At what point is your health worth more muscle? Thats entirely a question that only be answered by an individual AAS user, and no one else. What's important to one may not be important to another.

I do agree with you when you say 'be smart'. Education is the key here. I just hope more people will be educated about the silent killers.

PS -- thank you to all the generous karma I recieved from everyone.
 
psychedout said:
My point is hereby as follows: 'The two most serious side effects out there; high blood pressure and bad cholesterol are the two most neglected side effects out there. Why? Why? Why?'

this is a pet peeve of mine and I've written many posts on it, but for the most part, everybody just yawns.

I think sometimes Ed Koch had it exactly right (see my signature block).
:worried:
-
 
KA-BAR said:

AAS in general raise the hematocrit level of the blood. This just means that the ratio of solid blood plasma components has increased over those that are non-solid.

A hematocrit of 40 is considered normal. A hematocrit of 50 is where most steroid users are normally. Hematocrit is closely related to your BP btw. The higher the hematocrit, the higher your BP. It has to due with the increased mass flowrate through your arteries. Higher mass flowrate = Greater blood pressure.

But there is one problem. If your hematocrit goes beyond 60, you will develop blood clots(due to use of certain steroids + too much of them), and you could have a heart attack. That's possibility one for what happenned to you.

Thrombosis is another problem. But this time related to platelet agregation due to an abnormal increment of thromboxane(related to Hematocrit levels). Platelets are what create blood clots. Now, this is good outside the artery but NOT inside. If you have low HDL and some small amount of arterial blockage. The increased viscous blood cannot properly go through the sections that are semi-blocked, and the body is fooled into thinking it's something that nees repair, so plateletes aggregate there and form a clot/embolism.

One thing to counter this problem that is cheap and effective is to use 325mg of enteric coated aspirin/day. This thins the blood, and makes it more fluidic, and less viscous, therefore it is less able to clot.
 
psychedout said:
I kind of get the feeling that I am making some people think I am against AAS.

I am in no such manner.

All I am stating is that many neglect a health problems (notice I say many, not all). At what point is your health worth more muscle? Thats entirely a question that only be answered by an individual AAS user, and no one else. What's important to one may not be important to another.

I do agree with you when you say 'be smart'. Education is the key here. I just hope more people will be educated about the silent killers.

PS -- thank you to all the generous karma I recieved from everyone.

Good post.

I'd just like to add one thing. Most androgens are immuno-suppresive. They will decrease the effectiveness of your immune system while you're on them.
Therefore, taking immun-boosting supplements while on androgens is a good idea. 7-oxo-DHEA, R-ALA, AlCar, Green Tea, and 1,4 Beta Glucan are the 5 best for this.
 
Good post mate, so you have mentioned the risks about high BP and cholesterol. What would you reccomend people take to combat this?? Dosages aswell. Cheers.

Mick
 
1)For combating bloodpressure i'd suggest something like this:
-Limited use of stimulants
-Do cardio for at least 30 minutes 3 times per week
-Reduce Sodium intake
-Supplement with 5-7 grams of taurine each day
-Use anti-e's while on a cycle that involes dbol, test, or anadrol (aromasin being the best choice as it has no negative impact on the lipids)
-Supplement with Co-Q10
-It's somewhat debatable, but many people believe garlic supplementation to improve bloodpressure too. Either way garlic supplementation is just plain healthy.


2)Here is a great post for combating cholesterol:

Cholesterol...the “other” silent killer all members should be concerned with!

WHAT IS CHOLESTEROL
Cholesterol is a waxy, fat-like compound that belongs to a class of molecules called steroids. It's found in many foods, in your bloodstream and in all your body's cells. If you had a handful of cholesterol, it might feel like a soft, melted candle. Cholesterol is essential forFormation and maintenance of cell membranes (helps the cell to resist changes in temperature and protects and insulates nerve fibers)
Formation of sex hormones (progesterone, testosterone, estradiol, cortisol)
Production of bile salts, which help to digest food
Conversion into vitamin D in the skin when exposed to sunlight.

Excess cholesterol in the Blood collects on the walls of certain blood vessels decreasing their ability to provide proper blood flow to the tissues fed by these blood vessels. For example, a heart attack occurs when the heart receives insufficient blood flow. High levels of cholesterol also increase the risk of high blood pressure, stroke, and circulation problems.
Cholesterol can be affected by consuming foods high in fat, but the body also synthesizes cholesterol. Some people that adhere to a low fat diet still have high cholesterol levels because their body synthesizes an excess amount. There are several forms in which cholesterol is present in the body, LDL (the harmful form) and HDL (the helpful form). Depending on the relative levels of these forms, along with the concentration of triglycerides (another type of body fat), certain drugs are more effective then others in correcting the abnormalities. For example, a person with elevated LDL levels and normal triglycerides may be treated with different medications than someone with only elevated triglycerides.

Drveejay’s RULES to improve over-all Lipid Profiles.

RULE # 1) Eat a High Fiber Diet

HIGH FIBER DIETS are great for reducing cholesterol levels and reducing soft arterial plaque. Water soluble fibers (guar gum, citrus pectin, locust beans, etc.) are very viscous, slimy and sticky. Bacteria in the large bowel breakdown the water soluble fibers into short chain fatty acids. It is the fatty acids we believe are responsible for lowering LDL-C and interfere with the adhesive characteristics of plaque promoting regression of atherosclerosis (blockage). It also poses qualities which enable lowering LDL (Bad) Cholesterol thereby reducing total cholesterol, improves GI Motility, and improves Glucose Tolerance.

RULE # 2) Avoid Fats and Carbs in the same meal. This one’s kind of a no-brainer! As fatty acids and carbs compete as energy sources. Gluconeogenesis mediates and prioritizes this competition in favor of carb utilization. The fatty acids that are NOT needed at this time facilitate cholesterol synthesis and lipogenesis (not in the absence of carbs!). This is a recipe for disaster.

RULE #3) Eat a diet RICH in Omega 3 Fatty Acids Fish oil supplements are dietary supplements that contain oil from cold water fish such as mackerel, salmon, black cod, albacore tuna, sardines, and herring. The active ingredients in fish oil supplements are essential fatty acids known as omega-3 fatty acids. They typically include eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA).
Fish oils are noted for their effects in people with high cholesterol and heart disease. Medical research supports that large amounts of fish oil—five to 20 grams daily—may lower the amount of triglycerides, or dissolved fat, in the blood. For more...http://www.dcnutrition.com/fattyacids/.

RULE#3) LOWER SATURATED FATSNot all saturated fat is linked to elevated cholesterol levels; only a subset of saturated fatty acids have this effect. The effect of saturated fat intake on cardiovascular disease incidence is only mediated through its effect on raising LDL levels. If cholesterol levels are controlled for, then saturated fat has no independent effect. What this means is that if the LDL and HDL levels are adequate, then adjustment of saturated fat intake will have little benefit. This is an important concept because earlier; it was thought that saturated fat intake was an independent factor, but more recently, it has become accepted fact that much of this effect was due to failure to account for fiber intake which typically declines as saturated fat intake increases.

RULE #4) AVOID TRANS FATTY ACIDSFinally, the role of trans fatty acids needs clarification. Trans fatty acid, although they are technically classified as polyunsaturated fats because of their chemical structure, in general behave more along the lines of saturated fats with regard to their effects on cholesterol. In addition to this property, they also appear to have negative effects on hormonal regulation by interfering with eicosanoids due to their similarity with polyunsaturated fats. Since nutrition labels typically do not list trans fatty acid amounts, look for term "partially hydrogenated" to disclose its presence

RULE #5) RUN Nolvadex with every cycle (w/ or w/out other anti-E’s)The selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) act like estrogen in bone and cardiovascular tissue and block estrogenic effects in the breast SERMs decrease LDL and cholesterol levels. GREAT TRICK when used with highly androgenic gear!


RULE #6) USE LIVER DETOXIFIERS year round even if NOT on orals! (Ala, thistle, tylers, liv 52, NAC, etc) are NO-BRAINERS here. Enabling your liver to function optimally, proper cholesterol metabolism and emulsification can take place.


RULE #7) EXERCISE (cardio/whatever) just be sure to “stay active” other than JUST bodybuilding. Cardiovascular exercise is GREAT for keeping the heart healthy and strengthening circulation.“Reducing the risk of heart attack and other complications of heart disease, cholesterol-lowering drugs are good, but a combination of medications, diet and exercise is better, new research suggests. In a study of people with heart disease, those who took cholesterol-lowering drugs called statins, stuck to a very-low-fat diet and exercised regularly were 67% less likely to have a heart attack or stroke or to die during the 5-year study than people who only took statins.”SOURCE: Journal of the American College of Cardiology 2003;41:263-274.
For MORE...: http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles...rs-runners.html

Drveejay’s SUPPLEMENT LIST (in order of importance)

SUPP # 1) Policosanol It is a natural supplement derived from sugar cane. The main ingredient is octacosanol. Octacosanol is an alcohol found in the waxy film that plants have over their leaves and fruit. The leaves and rinds of citrus fruits contain octacosanol, and so does wheat germ oil.

Policosanol has been shown to normalize cholesterol as well or better than cholesterol-lowering drugs, without side effects such as liver dysfunction and muscle atrophy.Efficacy and safety have been proven in numerous clinical trials, and it has been used by millions of people in other countries. Policosanol lowers harmful LDL-cholesterol and raises protective HDL-cholesterol. HDL-cholesterol removes plaque from arterial walls.

Policosanol also inhibits the oxidation of dangerous LDL-cholesterol4 which promotes the destruction of blood vessels by creating a chronic inflammatory response. Oxidized LDL can also provoke metalloproteinase enzymes. These enzymes promote blood vessel destruction, partly by interfering with HDL’s protective effect. Studies show that rats treated with policosanol have fewer foam cells, reflecting less inflammatory response causing less blood vessel destruction.

Healthy arteries are lined with a smooth layer of cells so that blood can race through with no resistance. One of the features of diseased arteries is that this layer becomes thick and overgrown with cells. As the artery narrows, blood flow slows down or is blocked completely. Policosanol can stop the proliferation of these cells in much the same was as lipid-lowering drugs.

Policosanol also inhibits the formation of clots, and may work synergistically with aspirin in this respect. In a comparison of aspirin and policosanol, aspirin was better at reducing one type of platelet aggregation (clumping together of blood cells). But policosanol was better at inhibiting another type. Together, policosanol and aspirin worked better than either alone.
Thromboxane is a blood vessel-constricting agent that contributes to abnormal platelet aggregation that can cause a heart attack or stroke. Significant reductions in the level of thromboxane occur in humans after two weeks of policosanol.

www.lifeextension.com/references.)

SUPP # 2) Red yeast rice. It is one of the better studied of these cholesterol-lowering supplements. There have been a number of clinical studies both in China, where it originated, and in the United States, showing that people who consume this red yeast rice along with a sensible diet can see a reduction in their cholesterol levels. It’s pretty powerful stuff because it contains a chemical called lovastatin. The same active ingredient found in a popular prescription drug used to lower cholesterol. That similarity has caused the FDA to take action against one company (go figure!). Red yeast rice also seems to have very few side effects.

SUPP # 3) Phyto-Sterol Complex It is 100% vegetable derived and provides naturally-occurring sterols including: Beta Sitosterol, Campesterol, and Stigmasterol. Similar in action to the SERMS (nolvadex) Phytoestrogens are plant substances that have weak estrogenic activity in some tissues and block the effects of estrogen in others. They are found in herbs and plant foods, especially soybeans. Soybeans are rich in isoflavones, particularly genistein and daidzein. The FDA stated that foods containing soy protein included in a diet low in saturated fat and cholesterol may reduce the risk of CHD by lowering blood cholesterol levels. The FDA has authorized use of labeling health claims about the role of plant sterol or plant stanol esters in reducing the risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) for foods containing these substances. This interim final rule is based on FDA's conclusion that plant sterol esters and plant stanol esters may reduce the risk of CHD by lowering blood cholesterol levels.

SUPP # 4) Vitamin E (tocopherol). It seems to interfere with the liver's ability to make cholesterol. Vitamin E is an anti-oxidant that protects cell membranes and other fat-soluble parts of the body, such as LDL Cholesterol (the “bad” cholesterol), from damage. Only when LDL is damaged does cholesterol appear to lead to Heart disease and vitamin E is an important antioxidant protector of LDL. Several studies have reported that 400 to 800 IU of natural vitamin E per day reduces the risk of heart attacks.

SUPP # 5) Lecithin It is a lipotropic (a fat emulsifier). Its primary function is to metabolize fat and cholesterol, so that it does not settle in the artery wall or in the gall bladder. Many of the positive effects of lecithin consumption are based on the fact that lecithin is a major source of choline. Choline is a lipotropic substance… As choline increases fat metabolism it has been shown that it lowers blood cholesterol.

Other “Maybe’s” with “good potential”

Garlic I’m slowly becoming skeptical after reading MANY well documented studies conveying that Garlic/Allicin is “decent at first” but essentially USELESS After 90 days! But until I read more CONCLUSIVE evidence, I will not totally dismiss its benefits. Here’s ONE example: http://www.berkeleywellness.com/htm...GarlicPills.php

Guggul Is a resin from the guggul tree, has been used for more than 2,000 years in India to treat a range of disorders. In the 1980s, an extract of the resin--dubbed gugulipid--began to be marketed as a cholesterol-lowering agent. The plant compound's mode of action is quite different from that of cholesterol-lowering statin drugs. This means that it or other compounds that work similarly could potentially be used in combination with statins. Some of guggul's active components, guggulsterones, work by blocking a substance that stops the body from getting rid of cholesterol. Statins, on the other hand, block the body from making more cholesterol.In addition to lowering cholesterol, guggul has anti-inflammatory activity. The dosage of guggulsterones is 25 mg two or three times daily. Most extracts contain 2.5–5% guggulsterones and can be taken daily for 3 to six months as a cholesterol lowering agent.

Alfalfa leaf Animal studies show that alfalfa leaf reduces blood cholesterol and plague deposits on artery walls.

Green barley has been used for centuries because of its high content of vitamins, minerals, essential fatty acids, enzymes, chlorophyll, various antioxidants, and many unknown natural substances with powerful properties. Has been shown to lower LDL (bad cholesterol) levels. Known to lower blood sugars and insulin levels in clinical studies.

Selenium It is the oxidized form of low-density lipoproteins (LDL, often called "bad" cholesterol) that promotes plaque build-up in coronary arteries. Selenium is one of a group of antioxidants that may help limit the oxidation of LDL cholesterol and thereby help to prevent coronary artery disease.

Inositol-Hexaniacinate is a form of Vitamin B-3 (but more superior). It assists in the breakdown and utilization of fats, proteins, and carbohydrates. It also reduces serum lipids. Unlike niacin which may cause flushing, headaches, and stomachaches, Inositol-Hexaniacinate is almost always safe although some rare liver problems have occurred at amounts in excess of 1,000 mg per day. Due to possible hepatotoxic effects, I do NOT recommend straight Niacin. High doses of Niacin can also be responsible activating peptic ulcers, impairing glucose tolerance, and precipitating gouty attacks. And many niacin-takers suffer from flushing, headaches, nausea, heartburn, and diarrhea. There are better choices—above.
 
psychedout said:
1)For combating bloodpressure i'd suggest something like this:
-Limited use of stimulants
-Do cardio for at least 30 minutes 3 times per week
-Reduce Sodium intake
-Supplement with 5-7 grams of taurine each day
-Use anti-e's while on a cycle that involes dbol, test, or anadrol (aromasin being the best choice as it has no negative impact on the lipids)
-Supplement with Co-Q10
-It's somewhat debatable, but many people believe garlic supplementation to improve bloodpressure too. Either way garlic supplementation is just plain healthy.


2)Here is a great post for combating cholesterol:

Cholesterol...the “other” silent killer all members should be concerned with!

WHAT IS CHOLESTEROL
Cholesterol is a waxy, fat-like compound that belongs to a class of molecules called steroids. It's found in many foods, in your bloodstream and in all your body's cells. If you had a handful of cholesterol, it might feel like a soft, melted candle. Cholesterol is essential forFormation and maintenance of cell membranes (helps the cell to resist changes in temperature and protects and insulates nerve fibers)
Formation of sex hormones (progesterone, testosterone, estradiol, cortisol)
Production of bile salts, which help to digest food
Conversion into vitamin D in the skin when exposed to sunlight.

Excess cholesterol in the Blood collects on the walls of certain blood vessels decreasing their ability to provide proper blood flow to the tissues fed by these blood vessels. For example, a heart attack occurs when the heart receives insufficient blood flow. High levels of cholesterol also increase the risk of high blood pressure, stroke, and circulation problems.
Cholesterol can be affected by consuming foods high in fat, but the body also synthesizes cholesterol. Some people that adhere to a low fat diet still have high cholesterol levels because their body synthesizes an excess amount. There are several forms in which cholesterol is present in the body, LDL (the harmful form) and HDL (the helpful form). Depending on the relative levels of these forms, along with the concentration of triglycerides (another type of body fat), certain drugs are more effective then others in correcting the abnormalities. For example, a person with elevated LDL levels and normal triglycerides may be treated with different medications than someone with only elevated triglycerides.

Drveejay’s RULES to improve over-all Lipid Profiles.

RULE # 1) Eat a High Fiber Diet

HIGH FIBER DIETS are great for reducing cholesterol levels and reducing soft arterial plaque. Water soluble fibers (guar gum, citrus pectin, locust beans, etc.) are very viscous, slimy and sticky. Bacteria in the large bowel breakdown the water soluble fibers into short chain fatty acids. It is the fatty acids we believe are responsible for lowering LDL-C and interfere with the adhesive characteristics of plaque promoting regression of atherosclerosis (blockage). It also poses qualities which enable lowering LDL (Bad) Cholesterol thereby reducing total cholesterol, improves GI Motility, and improves Glucose Tolerance.

RULE # 2) Avoid Fats and Carbs in the same meal. This one’s kind of a no-brainer! As fatty acids and carbs compete as energy sources. Gluconeogenesis mediates and prioritizes this competition in favor of carb utilization. The fatty acids that are NOT needed at this time facilitate cholesterol synthesis and lipogenesis (not in the absence of carbs!). This is a recipe for disaster.

RULE #3) Eat a diet RICH in Omega 3 Fatty Acids Fish oil supplements are dietary supplements that contain oil from cold water fish such as mackerel, salmon, black cod, albacore tuna, sardines, and herring. The active ingredients in fish oil supplements are essential fatty acids known as omega-3 fatty acids. They typically include eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA).
Fish oils are noted for their effects in people with high cholesterol and heart disease. Medical research supports that large amounts of fish oil—five to 20 grams daily—may lower the amount of triglycerides, or dissolved fat, in the blood. For more...http://www.dcnutrition.com/fattyacids/.

RULE#3) LOWER SATURATED FATSNot all saturated fat is linked to elevated cholesterol levels; only a subset of saturated fatty acids have this effect. The effect of saturated fat intake on cardiovascular disease incidence is only mediated through its effect on raising LDL levels. If cholesterol levels are controlled for, then saturated fat has no independent effect. What this means is that if the LDL and HDL levels are adequate, then adjustment of saturated fat intake will have little benefit. This is an important concept because earlier; it was thought that saturated fat intake was an independent factor, but more recently, it has become accepted fact that much of this effect was due to failure to account for fiber intake which typically declines as saturated fat intake increases.

RULE #4) AVOID TRANS FATTY ACIDSFinally, the role of trans fatty acids needs clarification. Trans fatty acid, although they are technically classified as polyunsaturated fats because of their chemical structure, in general behave more along the lines of saturated fats with regard to their effects on cholesterol. In addition to this property, they also appear to have negative effects on hormonal regulation by interfering with eicosanoids due to their similarity with polyunsaturated fats. Since nutrition labels typically do not list trans fatty acid amounts, look for term "partially hydrogenated" to disclose its presence

RULE #5) RUN Nolvadex with every cycle (w/ or w/out other anti-E’s)The selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) act like estrogen in bone and cardiovascular tissue and block estrogenic effects in the breast SERMs decrease LDL and cholesterol levels. GREAT TRICK when used with highly androgenic gear!


RULE #6) USE LIVER DETOXIFIERS year round even if NOT on orals! (Ala, thistle, tylers, liv 52, NAC, etc) are NO-BRAINERS here. Enabling your liver to function optimally, proper cholesterol metabolism and emulsification can take place.


RULE #7) EXERCISE (cardio/whatever) just be sure to “stay active” other than JUST bodybuilding. Cardiovascular exercise is GREAT for keeping the heart healthy and strengthening circulation.“Reducing the risk of heart attack and other complications of heart disease, cholesterol-lowering drugs are good, but a combination of medications, diet and exercise is better, new research suggests. In a study of people with heart disease, those who took cholesterol-lowering drugs called statins, stuck to a very-low-fat diet and exercised regularly were 67% less likely to have a heart attack or stroke or to die during the 5-year study than people who only took statins.”SOURCE: Journal of the American College of Cardiology 2003;41:263-274.
For MORE...: http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles...rs-runners.html

Drveejay’s SUPPLEMENT LIST (in order of importance)

SUPP # 1) Policosanol It is a natural supplement derived from sugar cane. The main ingredient is octacosanol. Octacosanol is an alcohol found in the waxy film that plants have over their leaves and fruit. The leaves and rinds of citrus fruits contain octacosanol, and so does wheat germ oil.

Policosanol has been shown to normalize cholesterol as well or better than cholesterol-lowering drugs, without side effects such as liver dysfunction and muscle atrophy.Efficacy and safety have been proven in numerous clinical trials, and it has been used by millions of people in other countries. Policosanol lowers harmful LDL-cholesterol and raises protective HDL-cholesterol. HDL-cholesterol removes plaque from arterial walls.

Policosanol also inhibits the oxidation of dangerous LDL-cholesterol4 which promotes the destruction of blood vessels by creating a chronic inflammatory response. Oxidized LDL can also provoke metalloproteinase enzymes. These enzymes promote blood vessel destruction, partly by interfering with HDL’s protective effect. Studies show that rats treated with policosanol have fewer foam cells, reflecting less inflammatory response causing less blood vessel destruction.

Healthy arteries are lined with a smooth layer of cells so that blood can race through with no resistance. One of the features of diseased arteries is that this layer becomes thick and overgrown with cells. As the artery narrows, blood flow slows down or is blocked completely. Policosanol can stop the proliferation of these cells in much the same was as lipid-lowering drugs.

Policosanol also inhibits the formation of clots, and may work synergistically with aspirin in this respect. In a comparison of aspirin and policosanol, aspirin was better at reducing one type of platelet aggregation (clumping together of blood cells). But policosanol was better at inhibiting another type. Together, policosanol and aspirin worked better than either alone.
Thromboxane is a blood vessel-constricting agent that contributes to abnormal platelet aggregation that can cause a heart attack or stroke. Significant reductions in the level of thromboxane occur in humans after two weeks of policosanol.

www.lifeextension.com/references.)

SUPP # 2) Red yeast rice. It is one of the better studied of these cholesterol-lowering supplements. There have been a number of clinical studies both in China, where it originated, and in the United States, showing that people who consume this red yeast rice along with a sensible diet can see a reduction in their cholesterol levels. It’s pretty powerful stuff because it contains a chemical called lovastatin. The same active ingredient found in a popular prescription drug used to lower cholesterol. That similarity has caused the FDA to take action against one company (go figure!). Red yeast rice also seems to have very few side effects.

SUPP # 3) Phyto-Sterol Complex It is 100% vegetable derived and provides naturally-occurring sterols including: Beta Sitosterol, Campesterol, and Stigmasterol. Similar in action to the SERMS (nolvadex) Phytoestrogens are plant substances that have weak estrogenic activity in some tissues and block the effects of estrogen in others. They are found in herbs and plant foods, especially soybeans. Soybeans are rich in isoflavones, particularly genistein and daidzein. The FDA stated that foods containing soy protein included in a diet low in saturated fat and cholesterol may reduce the risk of CHD by lowering blood cholesterol levels. The FDA has authorized use of labeling health claims about the role of plant sterol or plant stanol esters in reducing the risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) for foods containing these substances. This interim final rule is based on FDA's conclusion that plant sterol esters and plant stanol esters may reduce the risk of CHD by lowering blood cholesterol levels.

SUPP # 4) Vitamin E (tocopherol). It seems to interfere with the liver's ability to make cholesterol. Vitamin E is an anti-oxidant that protects cell membranes and other fat-soluble parts of the body, such as LDL Cholesterol (the “bad” cholesterol), from damage. Only when LDL is damaged does cholesterol appear to lead to Heart disease and vitamin E is an important antioxidant protector of LDL. Several studies have reported that 400 to 800 IU of natural vitamin E per day reduces the risk of heart attacks.

SUPP # 5) Lecithin It is a lipotropic (a fat emulsifier). Its primary function is to metabolize fat and cholesterol, so that it does not settle in the artery wall or in the gall bladder. Many of the positive effects of lecithin consumption are based on the fact that lecithin is a major source of choline. Choline is a lipotropic substance… As choline increases fat metabolism it has been shown that it lowers blood cholesterol.

Other “Maybe’s” with “good potential”

Garlic I’m slowly becoming skeptical after reading MANY well documented studies conveying that Garlic/Allicin is “decent at first” but essentially USELESS After 90 days! But until I read more CONCLUSIVE evidence, I will not totally dismiss its benefits. Here’s ONE example: http://www.berkeleywellness.com/htm...GarlicPills.php

Guggul Is a resin from the guggul tree, has been used for more than 2,000 years in India to treat a range of disorders. In the 1980s, an extract of the resin--dubbed gugulipid--began to be marketed as a cholesterol-lowering agent. The plant compound's mode of action is quite different from that of cholesterol-lowering statin drugs. This means that it or other compounds that work similarly could potentially be used in combination with statins. Some of guggul's active components, guggulsterones, work by blocking a substance that stops the body from getting rid of cholesterol. Statins, on the other hand, block the body from making more cholesterol.In addition to lowering cholesterol, guggul has anti-inflammatory activity. The dosage of guggulsterones is 25 mg two or three times daily. Most extracts contain 2.5–5% guggulsterones and can be taken daily for 3 to six months as a cholesterol lowering agent.

Alfalfa leaf Animal studies show that alfalfa leaf reduces blood cholesterol and plague deposits on artery walls.

Green barley has been used for centuries because of its high content of vitamins, minerals, essential fatty acids, enzymes, chlorophyll, various antioxidants, and many unknown natural substances with powerful properties. Has been shown to lower LDL (bad cholesterol) levels. Known to lower blood sugars and insulin levels in clinical studies.

Selenium It is the oxidized form of low-density lipoproteins (LDL, often called "bad" cholesterol) that promotes plaque build-up in coronary arteries. Selenium is one of a group of antioxidants that may help limit the oxidation of LDL cholesterol and thereby help to prevent coronary artery disease.

Inositol-Hexaniacinate is a form of Vitamin B-3 (but more superior). It assists in the breakdown and utilization of fats, proteins, and carbohydrates. It also reduces serum lipids. Unlike niacin which may cause flushing, headaches, and stomachaches, Inositol-Hexaniacinate is almost always safe although some rare liver problems have occurred at amounts in excess of 1,000 mg per day. Due to possible hepatotoxic effects, I do NOT recommend straight Niacin. High doses of Niacin can also be responsible activating peptic ulcers, impairing glucose tolerance, and precipitating gouty attacks. And many niacin-takers suffer from flushing, headaches, nausea, heartburn, and diarrhea. There are better choices—above.

Cheers for the quick response, some good info there. Karma to ya!

Mick
 
psychedout said:
LOLOLOLOL at you!

You completely missed the point of my post, and to be honest, I don't even think you read it properly if at all. You clearly aren't very smart.

If you were gyno prone, the last thing you would do is use slow acting AAS. You would use fast AAS.

The hair loss battle can be won -- even if genes are against you -- I know several individuals who are the winning side.

If you read where I discuss the liver -- you will see how I state that it is an amazing organ that can repair itself. And I said if you have liver problems STAY AWAY FROM ORALS. Good god! I cannot believe your bullshit.

I said permanetly reduced sperm count is a possibility of extended AAS use -- where did I say it happens to everyone? I don't see anywhere.

I sound like the media?!?! LoLoLoL. Right buddy.... right......


LMAO!! You should read his comments in the "AAS causes stroke" thread. I agree he is not very smart.
 
You're leaving out C-Reactive Protein which is much more instrumental in producing CAD than Cholesterol. I still maintain that short term changes in your cholesterol levels do not have the same affect as long term and I am beginning to question long term as well now that the real cause has been shown to be CRP (see latest New England Journal of Medicine). There is no evidence that short term flucuations in CHO levels has any affect on you chances for CAD. As these can and do occur throughout your lifetime with or without AS.
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

Ulter said:
You're leaving out C-Reactive Protein which is much more instrumental in producing CAD than Cholesterol. I still maintain that short term changes in your cholesterol levels do not have the same affect as long term and I am beginning to question long term as well now that the real cause has been shown to be CRP (see latest New England Journal of Medicine). There is no evidence that short term flucuations in CHO levels has any affect on you chances for CAD. As these can and do occur throughout your lifetime with or without AS.

My conclusions are somewhat different, but that's just me. I know your thoughts from many other thread, including the massive one a few posts up from this one right now.

I do like that people are starting to take interest in these things though. A year ago very few people (compared to now) were getting bloodwork done and taking interests in their health.

Now that people are becoming curious about AAS and health, many debates have begun. Many people hold many different opinions -- but this is the type of situation that will expand our knowledge. Some of it might be theoritical and speculative rather than empirical, but even empirical data must be taken with a grain of saly. Every individual will reach his or her own conclusions about AAS, I just wish some people could do it more politely and reframe from flame fests. (Even I am guilty of not keeping my cool all the time).
 
There has always been an interest. That's not the problem. The problem is the cost. People won't even buy anti-e's most the time because of the cost. Go figure. The AF Store used to offer all the tests needed to be safe on steroids, minus the obvious ones that need special equipment. There were about 30 of them. In the 13 months we offered them, and cheap, only 4 people used them. These were tests done by U of Washington and all you had to do was spit. 4 phucking people!
No one wanted to spend the money. The tests were between $39 and $119 (multi tests) and everyone just blew it off.

I tried.
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

Ulter said:
There has always been an interest. That's not the problem. The problem is the cost. People won't even buy anti-e's most the time because of the cost. Go figure. The AF Store used to offer all the tests needed to be safe on steroids, minus the obvious ones that need special equipment. There were about 30 of them. In the 13 months we offered them, and cheap, only 4 people used them. These were tests done by U of Washington and all you had to do was spit. 4 phucking people!
No one wanted to spend the money. The tests were between $39 and $119 (multi tests) and everyone just blew it off.

I tried.

Well, my interest has grown at least.

Thats pretty unbelievable only 4 people used them. I am glad that I do not have to pay for my tests. I would probably only be getting tested once or twice per year if I had to pay. As it stood it 2004 I had bloodwork done 4 times.
 
at one time, doctors told me my liver was near failure, it was starving in other words...........they told me i wasn't eating enough solid food, the proteins i was ingesting were to broken down for it to support liver fucntion. i was drinking like 3 or 4 protein drinks a day with 2 or 3 meals.
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

HumanTarget said:
at one time, doctors told me my liver was near failure, it was starving in other words...........they told me i wasn't eating enough solid food, the proteins i was ingesting were to broken down for it to support liver fucntion. i was drinking like 3 or 4 protein drinks a day with 2 or 3 meals.

Were any other factors contributing to this that you are aware of?
 
Aspirin therapy with Lipitor would be very helpful for those on a cycle and who are suscepable...I hear Lipitor is hard on the liver though
 
Renton405 said:
Aspirin therapy with Lipitor would be very helpful for those on a cycle and who are suscepable...I hear Lipitor is hard on the liver though

1. Lipitor is hepatoxic. Policosanol is not. Neither is R-ALA.

Statins are also hepatoxic in case anybody is wondering. Red Yeast Rice does nothing. If you believe the red Yeast Propaganda fine. Even Green Tea is better than Red Yeast Rice.

2. Aspirin has one advantage, and one disadadvantage. The advantage being it makes the blood less viscous (It's a cyclo-oxygenase inhibitor), therfore thinning it, and making it easier for the blood to travel past areas with plaque formation on the sides of the arteries.

What people don't know about aspirin is that it has a huge impact in prostaglandin production. Normal prostaglandin production by cells is always at a 1:1 ratio PGE2(bad prostaglandin) to PGF2A(Good prostaglandin). Say the amount is X at a 1:1 ratio. Aspirin will reduce X, not the ratio of 1:1, therefore reducing overral anabolic environment because now PGF2A is being produced in smaller amounts.

The solution to this (allthough not perfect) is to take one 81mg enteric coated aspirin every day when you're on androgenic AAS, or any AAS that increases your hematocrit levels past 50, to decrease the viscosity of the blood. A direct increase in BP(Specially diastolic 120/80 120 = diastolic), normally signifies an increase in hematocrit. i.e. 150/100 = Heamtocrit 0f 50.
160/100 = Hematocrit of 60. This is just a rule of thumb though. To get a more specific reading you need blood tests, BP monitor, or your own hema-pod. If you do buy a BP monitor, ask for the XL version. The Normal versions are meant for normal people with bicep circumferences of about 13-14". Way too small for any bodybuilder. Therefore, if you where to use this one (Used in almost all hospitals) this will totally skew their results.
 
Also as Ulter stated C-Reactive protein is an important marker.

Sort of like GGT is for the liver. Everybody always talks about ALT and AST, But GGT is more important, and ironically it is never spoken about.

You can tackle a C-Reactive problem with Vitamin C 1-2g/day will reduce it by 24%, according to blood test taken by a memeber of animals board.
 
Blood pressure and cholesterol are controllable. Both with drugs, diet, some cardio...

But the point is well taken, they are among the top 3-4 most dangerous sides and the Really bad part is that many people don't know it until they are cycling. I read everything I could get my hands on about AAS for months, the bloating, the disappearing nads, the acne, etc. I read very little about high blood pressure, mine was borderline anyway. Well about 4 weeks into a cycle I was like WTF ! , I'm freaking out, I had to back down the dosage and get monitored.
So yes very serious side but worse they are seldom talked about .

great thread.
 
1: Br Med J (Clin Res Ed). 1986 Feb 22;292(6519):515-9. Related Articles, Links


High density lipoprotein cholesterol is not a major risk factor for ischaemic heart disease in British men.

Pocock SJ, Shaper AG, Phillips AN, Walker M, Whitehead TP.

The concentration of high density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL cholesterol) in serum was measured at initial examination in a large prospective study of men aged 40-59 drawn from general practices in 24 British towns. After an average follow up of 4.2 years 193 cases of major ischaemic heart disease had been registered in 7415 men in whom both HDL cholesterol and total cholesterol values had been measured. The mean HDL cholesterol concentration was lower in the men with ischaemic heart disease ("cases") compared with other men, but the difference became small and non-significant after adjustment for age, body mass index, blood pressure, cigarette smoking, and concentration of non-HDL cholesterol. The higher mean concentration of non-HDL cholesterol in "cases" remained highly significant after adjustment for other factors. Men in the highest fifth of non-HDL cholesterol values had over three times the risk of major ischaemic heart disease compared with men in the lowest fifth. Multivariate analysis showed that non-HDL cholesterol was a more powerful predictor of risk than the HDL to total cholesterol ratio. These British findings were compared with six other prospective studies. All the larger studies showed similar results, suggesting that HDL cholesterol is not a major risk factor in the aetiology of ischaemic heart disease.

Showing the value of a multivariate analysis when considering any statistical data...

FS
 
And from "The Cholesterol Myths" by Uffe Ravnskov, M.D., Ph.D.:

(10). But the Israeli study did not support the words of Diet and Health, because total cholesterol, not LDL-cholesterol, had the strongest relationship to risk of coronary disease.
The second paper claimed by the Diet and Health-authors was a 1977 report from the Framingham Study by Dr. Tavia Gordon and her colleagues (11). This study concerned HDL cholesterol, however. Only logistic regression coefficients (a statistical concept unknown to most doctors) for coronary disease on LDL-cholesterol were given, and one of the conclusions of the paper was that ”LDL-cholesterol ...is a marginal risk factor for people of these age groups” (men and women above 50 years). Some of the coefficients were indeed low. For women above the age of 70 it was negative, which means that women at that age ran a greater risk of having a heart attack if their LDL-cholesterol was low than if it was high. Thus, there was no support either from Gordon's paper.
Also, the third paper (12) concerned HDL-cholesterol only. No support again.
The fourth reference was to the National Cholesterol Education Program, which produced another large review without original data (13). One of its conclusions was that ”a large body of epidemiologic evidence supports a direct relationship between the level of serum total and LDL-cholesterol and the rate of CHD.” The large body of evidence was to be found in three references. The first one was another large review without original data, Optimal resources for primary prevention of atherosclerotic disease (14), with Dr. Kannel as the first author. I shall return to their review below.
The next reference was yet a large review (15), but nothing in that review was said about the connection between the LDL-level and the incidence of coronary heart disease.
The last reference was an analysis of various lipoproteins as risk factors in the Honolulu Heart Study (16). The conclusion of that paper was that ”both measures of LDL-cholesterol were related to CHD prevalence, but neither appeared to be superior to total cholesterol”.
Before I discuss Kannel's review I shall mention another conclusion in the National Cholesterol Education Program: ”The issue of whether lowering LDL-cholesterol levels by dietary and drug interventions can reduce the incidence of CHD has been addressed in more than a dozen randomized clinical trials”. This is a most misleading statement because at that time, in 1988, only four randomized trials including LDL-cholesterol analysis had previously been published (17), and only in one of them the number of heart attacks was lowered significantly.
Let me now return to the review by Kannel and colleagues, the one used as evidence by the authors of The Cholesterol Education Program, which in turn was used as evidence by the authors of Diet and Health. Almost nothing was written about LDL-cholesterol in Kannel's review except for the following (page 164A): ”Longitudinal studies within populations show a consistent rise in the risk of CHD in relation to serum total cholesterol and LDL-cholesterol at least until late middle-age”.
A little more cautious conclusion than in Diet and Health, it may seem, but even for this prudent statement the evidence was weak. References to six studies were given. In two of them LDL-cholesterol was not analysed or mentioned at all (18); in two reports LDL-cholesterol was only correlated to the prevalence of heart disease (19); in one report two tables was aimed at the subject (tables 8 and 9) and showed that the predictive power of LDL-cholesterol was statistically nonsignificant (20); in one study LDL-cholesterol was predictive for heart disease, but only for men between 35 and 49 and for women between 40 and 44 (21).
In conclusion, the ”large body of evidence” was cooked down to one single study, which showed a predictive value for LDL-cholesterol but for a few age groups only. LDL-cholesterol is neither centrally nor causally important, it has not the strongest and most consistent relationship to risk of CHD, it has not a direct relationship to the rate of CHD, and it has not been studied in more than a dozen randomized trials.
But how then has the idea of the bad cholesterol emerged? As mentioned in the National Cholesterol Education Program, there are two main reasons. First, there was the discovery of a defective LDL-receptor in familial hypercholesterolemia and its consequence, the extremely high level of LDL-cholesterol in the blood of individuals with this disease. The discoverers, Nobel prize winners Michael Brown and Joseph Goldstein, suggested that the high LDL-cholesterol was the direct cause of the vascular changes seen in such individuals and also suggested that a similar mechanism was operating in the rest of us (22). Second, feeding experiments in animals raised the animals' LDL-cholesterol and produced vascular changes that have been called atherosclerosis by the experimentators.
These arguments are weak, however. If LDL-cholesterol were the devil himself LDL-cholesterol would clearly be a better predictor than total cholesterol, because the latter include also the ”good” HDL-cholesterol. And experiments on animals can only be suggestive and cannot prove anything about human diseases. Besides, the vascular findings in laboratory animals do not look like human atherosclerosis at all, and it is impossible to induce a heart attack in animals by diet alone (23). And finally, findings pertaining to people with a rare genetic error in cholesterol metabolism are not necessarily valid for the rest of us (24).
Thus, the experimentors claim support from unsupportive epidemiological and clinical studies, and the epidemiologists and the clinicians claim support from inconclusive experimental evidence. The victims of this miscarriage of justice are an innocent and useful molecular construction in our blood, producers and manufacturers of animal fat all over the world, and millions of healthy people who are frightened and badgered into eating a tedious and flavorless diet that is said to lower their bad cholesterol.
Read also:

Ravnskov U. High cholesterol may protect against infections and atherosclerosis recently published in Quarterly Journal of Medicine (2003;96:927-34).


10. Medalie JH and others. Five-year myocardial infarction incidence-II. Association of single variables to age and birthplace. Journal of Chronic Diseases 1973;26:325-349.

11. Gordon T. and others. High density lipoprotein as a protective factor against coronary heart disease. American Journal of Medicine 1977;62:707-714.

12. Watkins LO and others. Racial differences in high-density lipoprotein cholesterol and coronary heart disease incidence in the usual-care group of the multiple risk factor intervention trial. American Journal of Cardiology 1987;57:538-545.

13. The Expert Panel. Report of the National Cholesterol Education Program expert panel on detection, evaluation, and treatment of high blood cholesterol in adults. Archives of Internal Medicine 1988;148:36-69.

14. Kannel WB and others. Optimal resources for primary prevention of atherosclerotic diseases. Atherosclerosis study group. Circulation 1984;70:157A-205A.

15. Grundy SM. Cholesterol and coronary heart disease: a new era. JAMA 1986;256:2849-2858.

16. Hulley SB, Rhoads GG. The plasma lipoproteins as risk factors: comparison of electrophoretic and ultracentrifugation results. Metabolism 1982;31:773-777.

17. The Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial (MR.FIT), the Newcastle trial, the Lipid Research Clinic's trial, and the Helsinki Heart Study.

18. Yaari S and others. Associations of serum high density lipoprotein and total cholesterol with total, cardiovascular, and cancer mortality in a 7-year prospective study of 10000 men. The Lancet 1981;1:1011-1015.
- Ancel Keys. Seven Countries. A multivariate analysis of death and coronary heart disease. Harvard University Press 1980.

19. Rhoads GG, Gulbrandsen CL, Kagan A. Serum lipoproteins and coronary heart disease in a population study of Hawaii Japanese men. New England Journal of Medicine 1976;294:293 298.
- The Pooling Project Research Group. Relationship of blood pressure, serum cholesterol, smoking habit, relative weight and ECG abnormalities to incidence of major coronary events: final report of the pooling project. Journal of Chronic Diseases 1978;31:201-306.

20. Conference on the health effects of blood lipids: Optimal distributions for populations. Workshop report: Epidemiological section. Preventive Medicine 1979;8:612. No LDL data were presented in that report either.

21. Kannel WB, Castelli WP, Gordon T. Cholesterol in the prediction of atherosclerotic disease. New perspectives based on the Framingham study. Annals of Internal Medicine 1979;90:85 91.

22. Brown MS, Goldstein JL. How LDL receptors influence cholesterol and atherosclerosis. Scientific American 1984;251:52-60.

23. For more details, read the papers by William Stehbens

24. Ravnskov U. An elevated serum cholesterol is secondary, not causal, in coronary heart disease. Medical Hypotheses 1991;36:238-41.
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

psychedout said:
Well, my interest has grown at least.

Thats pretty unbelievable only 4 people used them. I am glad that I do not have to pay for my tests. I would probably only be getting tested once or twice per year if I had to pay. As it stood it 2004 I had bloodwork done 4 times.


where do you get yours done?
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

Guvna said:
where do you get yours done?

Local doctor. I am a bit skeptical of the online steroid doctors after the whole DrJMW incident.
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

psychedout said:
Local doctor. I am a bit skeptical of the online steroid doctors after the whole DrJMW incident.



How do you convince him that you need blood test 4x a year? Does he know you are on AS?

I can get blood tests done once a year or so for free from my local doc, but not 4 times, and not a lot of the tests I want. Any advice?
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

Guvna said:
How do you convince him that you need blood test 4x a year? Does he know you are on AS?

I can get blood tests done once a year or so for free from my local doc, but not 4 times, and not a lot of the tests I want. Any advice?

Well first of all, its a she. :supercool:. Second of all, yes she knows. Third of all, in Canada health care is free, so I am not sure what the deal is in the US. You might have to pay.
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

Fukkenshredded said:
1: Br Med J (Clin Res Ed). 1986 Feb 22;292(6519):515-9. Related Articles, Links


High density lipoprotein cholesterol is not a major risk factor for ischaemic heart disease in British men.

Pocock SJ, Shaper AG, Phillips AN, Walker M, Whitehead TP.

The concentration of high density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL cholesterol) in serum was measured at initial examination in a large prospective study of men aged 40-59 drawn from general practices in 24 British towns. After an average follow up of 4.2 years 193 cases of major ischaemic heart disease had been registered in 7415 men in whom both HDL cholesterol and total cholesterol values had been measured. The mean HDL cholesterol concentration was lower in the men with ischaemic heart disease ("cases") compared with other men, but the difference became small and non-significant after adjustment for age, body mass index, blood pressure, cigarette smoking, and concentration of non-HDL cholesterol. The higher mean concentration of non-HDL cholesterol in "cases" remained highly significant after adjustment for other factors. Men in the highest fifth of non-HDL cholesterol values had over three times the risk of major ischaemic heart disease compared with men in the lowest fifth. Multivariate analysis showed that non-HDL cholesterol was a more powerful predictor of risk than the HDL to total cholesterol ratio. These British findings were compared with six other prospective studies. All the larger studies showed similar results, suggesting that HDL cholesterol is not a major risk factor in the aetiology of ischaemic heart disease.

Showing the value of a multivariate analysis when considering any statistical data...

FS

Point taken, but it does not mean that HDL means nothing. It just means its not as important as LDL/VLDL levels.
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

But the Israeli study did not support the words of Diet and Health, because total cholesterol, not LDL-cholesterol, had the strongest relationship to risk of coronary disease.

Again, a better predictor, but HDL still is a factor, and one I would consider to be important.
 
Psychedout --

Would you answer a few questions, please? This is to help me understand your thinking, okay?

Where, in the hiearchy of causal factors for heart disease, do you place cholesterol levels? (Perhaps you could rank the top ten factors the way you understand them...)

On what authority/experience do you rely on for this faith?

In light of evidence supporting the notion that cholesterol level, in and of itself, is not a causal factor for heart disease until the level reaches hyperlipidity (above 1200 total), what, specifically, has caused your adherance to your current position?

If you would elaborate a bit on your personal experiences and thoughts regarding the above questions, it would really help me to examine my position again with new eyes.

Thank you.
 
More and more researchers are discovering Chol is not a accurate indicator of furture CAD. Many feel it's the lifestyle of those who have bad lipid profiles that is the cause rather than the Chol itself.
And as I have said repeatedly. Short term flucuations is lipids have never been shown to affect long term CV health. The people here who get all upset because their lipid profiles are messed up on cycle need to calm down. It simply doesn't mean this will have long term health effects.
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

Ulter said:
More and more researchers are discovering Chol is not a accurate indicator of furture CAD. Many feel it's the lifestyle of those who have bad lipid profiles that is the cause rather than the Chol itself.
And as I have said repeatedly. Short term flucuations is lipids have never been shown to affect long term CV health. The people here who get all upset because their lipid profiles are messed up on cycle need to calm down. It simply doesn't mean this will have long term health effects.

good posts fuckenshredded. makes me really wonder quite a bit.

you say short term flucuations will not result in long term health problems. lets suppose i buy this. what does this mean for people like me and you who are part of the year round crowd?
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

Ulter said:
I am part of the "Year round" crowd. My lipid profile is trashed but my stress echo cardiogram is perfect. It's been that way for many years and hasn't had any ill effects on my health. I do take policosanol and nitric acid.


So what would you consider to be the top indictators of CAD, and where would you put hdl/ldl on that list?
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

You're asking the wrong question, I believe. The top indicators would be blocked arteries. But I think you mean predictors which is what a lipid profile is meant to do. I don't think there is such a thing. The main cause from what I have seen is sat fat and a sedentary lifestyle. So a 50 year old man weighing 350 with a car floor full of Big Mac and Krispy Kreme wrappers would be a picture of good predictors.
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

Ulter said:
You're asking the wrong question, I believe. The top indicators would be blocked arteries. But I think you mean predictors which is what a lipid profile is meant to do. I don't think there is such a thing. The main cause from what I have seen is sat fat and a sedentary lifestyle. So a 50 year old man weighing 350 with a car floor full of Big Mac and Krispy Kreme wrappers would be a picture of good predictors.


Yes, I did mean predictors. I understand that it is manily a lifestyle thing, but what about blood testing? I have read that you feel c-reactive is a better predictor than hdl/ldl, so would you consider it the Best predictor (besides lifestyle, of course)?
 
dont flame me please! I know that gear that aromatizes causes elevated BP but which drugs are guilty of elvevating your cholesterol the most & to what degree?
 
Re: Blood pressure and cholesterol... the worst side effects from AAS, yet many ignor

Dirty V said:
dont flame me please! I know that gear that aromatizes causes elevated BP but which drugs are guilty of elvevating your cholesterol the most & to what degree?


17AA steroids are the worst for cholesterol.
 
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