Bill Roberts on Protein intake and Steroids

[Realgains]

Just got a reply from my favorite steroid guru, Bill Roberts, in regard to a protein question.

"Absolutely, when planning to gain muscle rapidly when on anabolic steroids, more protein is needed than under conditions where one cannot expect rapid muscle gains. This only stands to reason since each pound of muscle gained contains 90 grams of protein or something like this and due to marginal feed effeciency never being anywhere near 100%, quite a bit more than 90 grams more protein is required in excess of what would be adequate maintainance protein for a resistance training athlete.
I recommend 2-2.5 grams per pound of LBM/day with the lower figure being really minimal. When protein is substantially les than this, substantially less gains are seen."

When I asked him how much protein is needed when training natural he said...."1-1.5 grams per pound of body weight"

Bill Roberts

As I mentioned before I was from the Aurthor Jones/Darden school and believed one didn't need all that much more protein to see great gains....it wasn't until I started to do trial and error experimentation that I realized I was dead wrong.

RG

 

[THEENDISNEAR]

Unless you made a typo I have been really cheating meself.

Is it me, or does anyone else find this a bit much? If its right then I have been under nourished by over 50%. This just cant be right or I would be an anorectic instead of athletic.

If there is a study that proves the 2-2.5g protien/pond of lbm/day I'd like to see it.

 

[Realgains]

Unless you made a typo I have been really cheating meself.

Is it me, or does anyone else find this a bit much? If its right then I have been under nourished by over 50%. This just cant be right or I would be an anorectic instead of athletic.

If there is a study that proves the 2-2.5g protien/pond of lbm/day I'd like to see it.

You will still make gains with less.

The above is pretty much common knowledge with the men that juice.

RG

 

[THEENDISNEAR]

You will still make gains with less.

The above is pretty much common knowledge with the men that juice.

RG

Is this published? Any what about women?

 

[MS]

No, it's not published. I'm afraid that "common knowledge" or "Bill says" is not really very convincing to me. I strongly believe that the timing and cycling of your protein is more important than blindly shoving in as much as you can because "more is better" so that you just end up upregulating protein degrading enzymes and increasing oxidation of protiens for fuel so that your body DOES actually need more and more. It is also non-sensical to believe that steroids actually INCREASE the need for dietary protein. Study after study in animals and humans has shown that AAS increase feed efficiency rather than decrease it. I also believe (based on several studies in humans) that the maximum amount of dietary protein needed for non-AAS weight training adults is around 1.6-1.8 grams per kg. This is around 0.8g per pound. No one has been able to demostrate an increase in nitrogen deposition with protein intakes higher than this unless other nutrients are limiting (eg when dieting).

90 grams of protein to add a pound of muscle.....this means that to add 4 lbs of muscle in one week you need to take in an extra 360g of protein more than you burn or excrete over that week. Yet to go from non-juiced to juiced, he is recommending you have to add an extra gram per POUND per day. For a 200 lb juicer this means they would need an extra 1400g of protein more than the non-juicer to add and extra 360g worth of muscle. This would represent a huge DECREASE in feed efficiency by anyone's standards.

However, there is no harm in eating extra protein so if it makes you feel like you're making better progress then by all means chow down. I have to admit that there are few topics that get bodybuilders more fired up than discussing protein requirements......a lot of anecdote and not much science.

 

[Realgains]

No, it's not published. I'm afraid that "common knowledge" or "Bill says" is not really very convincing to me. I strongly believe that the timing and cycling of your protein is more important than blindly shoving in as much as you can because "more is better" so that you just end up upregulating protein degrading enzymes and increasing oxidation of protiens for fuel so that your body DOES actually need more and more. It is also non-sensical to believe that steroids actually INCREASE the need for dietary protein. Study after study in animals and humans has shown that AAS increase feed efficiency rather than decrease it. I also believe (based on several studies in humans) that the maximum amount of dietary protein needed for non-AAS weight training adults is around 1.6-1.8 grams per kg. This is around 0.8g per pound. No one has been able to demostrate an increase in nitrogen deposition with protein intakes higher than this unless other nutrients are limiting (eg when dieting).

90 grams of protein to add a pound of muscle.....this means that to add 4 lbs of muscle in one week you need to take in an extra 360g of protein more than you burn or excrete over that week. Yet to go from non-juiced to juiced, he is recommending you have to add an extra gram per POUND per day. For a 200 lb juicer this means they would need an extra 1400g of protein more than the non-juicer to add and extra 360g worth of muscle. This would represent a huge DECREASE in feed efficiency by anyone's standards.

However, there is no harm in eating extra protein so if it makes you feel like you're making better progress then by all means chow down. I have to admit that there are few topics that get bodybuilders more fired up than discussing protein requirements......a lot of anecdote and not much science.

MS but what about all the trial and error experience out there.....my experience for one. I noticed a huge difference when I increased my protein consumption.

MS there isn't a single steroid guru out there that holds to your belief in regard to protein, not one, and you can't just disregaurd that as there are some very educated guru's out there ...what makes you so sure that you are correct and everyone else is wrong, after all you have yet to test your belief out on yourself or anyone else I think.


MS you really should be more respectful in your tone towards men like Roberts. He is a very smart guy and very well educated. I believe he has two science degrees and one at the PHD level.
He has also conducted many studies on steroids and nutrition and he has even invented a few things, like finasol for one. The guy really is a walking book on steroids.

I repeat MS you have not tested your theory as you have yet to try steroids. Come on now don't you think that holds a fair amount of weight?

RG

 

[nandi12]

However, there is no harm in eating extra protein so if it makes you feel like you're making better progress then by all means chow down.

Actually a lot of folks aren't aware that elevated amino acid intake induces insulin resistance in normal humans. Chronic insulin resistance leads to all kinds of health problems. I try to keep within the guidelines of the study I posted last night:

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=158035

J Am Coll Nutr 2000 Oct;19(5 Suppl):513S-521S

Beyond the zone: protein needs of active individuals.

Lemon PW.

Exercise Nutrition Research Laboratory, The University of Western Ontario, London, Canada. [email protected]

There has been debate among athletes and nutritionists regarding dietary protein needs for centuries. Although contrary to traditional belief, recent scientific information collected on physically active individuals tends to indicate that regular exercise increases daily protein requirements; however, the precise details remain to be worked out. Based on laboratory measures, daily protein requirements are increased by perhaps as much as 100% vs. recommendations for sedentary individuals (1.6-1.8 vs. 0.8 g/kg). Yet even these intakes are much less than those reported by most athletes. This may mean that actual requirements are below what is needed to optimize athletic performance, and so the debate continues. Numerous interacting factors including energy intake, carbohydrate availability, exercise intensity, duration and type, dietary protein quality, training history, gender, age, timing of nutrient intake and the like make this topic extremely complex. Many questions remain to be resolved. At the present time, substantial data indicate that the current recommended protein intake should be adjusted upward for those who are physically active, especially in populations whose needs are elevated for other reasons, e.g., growing individuals, dieters, vegetarians, individuals with muscle disease-induced weakness and the elderly. For these latter groups, specific supplementation may be appropriate, but for most North Americans who consume a varied diet, including complete protein foods (meat, eggs, fish and dairy products), and sufficient energy the increased protein needs induced by a regular exercise program can be met in one's diet.

Here is a discussion of amino acid induced insulin resistance:

Diabetes 2002 Mar;51(3):599-605

Mechanism of amino acid-induced skeletal muscle insulin resistance in humans.

Krebs M, Krssak M, Bernroider E, Anderwald C, Brehm A, Meyerspeer M, Nowotny P, Roth E, Waldhausl W, Roden M.

Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine III, University of Vienna Medical School, Vienna, Austria.

Plasma concentrations of amino acids are frequently elevated in insulin-resistant states, and a protein-enriched diet can impair glucose metabolism. This study examined effects of short-term plasma amino acid (AA) elevation on whole-body glucose disposal and cellular insulin action in skeletal muscle. Seven healthy men were studied for 5.5 h during euglycemic (5.5 mmol/l), hyperinsulinemic (430 pmol/l), fasting glucagon (65 ng/l), and growth hormone (0.4 microg/l) somatostatin clamp tests in the presence of low (approximately 1.6 mmol/l) and increased (approximately 4.6 mmol/l) plasma AA concentrations. Glucose turnover was measured with D-[6,6-(2)H(2)]glucose. Intramuscular concentrations of glycogen and glucose-6-phosphate (G6P) were monitored using (13)C and (31)P nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy, respectively. A approximately 2.1-fold elevation of plasma AAs reduced whole-body glucose disposal by 25% (P < 0.01). Rates of muscle glycogen synthesis decreased by 64% (180--315 min, 24 plus minus 3; control, 67 plus minus 10 micromol center dot l(-1) center dot min(-1); P < 0.01), which was accompanied by a reduction in G6P starting at 130 min (DeltaG6P(260--300 min), 18 plus minus 19; control, 103 plus minus 33 micromol/l; P < 0.05). In conclusion, plasma amino acid elevation induces skeletal muscle insulin resistance in humans by inhibition of glucose transport/phosphorylation, resulting in marked reduction of glycogen synthesis.

 

[Realgains]

nandi12...the male MS... he he he



Good info

RG

 

[nandi12]

Seriously, RG, I don't know how much protein a person needs. I'm sure if you are juicing heavily it's hard to get enough. I worry about insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes because of my bad genetics. I try to stay lean partly for that reason too. Between steroids (which cause insulin resistance), GH (ditto, but by a different mechanism), T3 (increases the expression of genes encoding for enzymes involved in the synthesis and secretion of insulin by pancreatic beta cells) and high protein, I kind of worry about hyperinsulinemia.

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

The #1 impedement in progress on an A/S run is protein consumption.9 out of 10 times when someone comes out with,"I'm in week 6 of my test/d-bol/eq cycle,and I've only gained 5 lbs",the first question is how much protein are you consuming,and how often?And 9 times out of ten,therein lies the problem,lol.The minute I get the person to jack their intake up to 2+grams per lb of BW daily,and in 3-4 hour intervals-Bingo!The tape measure/scale starts moving.Very important point.