Best way to get a higher Bench Max?

[juicy fruit]

Been strugglin lately to get to 225 as hard as I can, I warmup with 135x10, go on to 185x8, then 205x4, then 135 till failure. Then I head over to the incline. My question is whats the best way to get to my 225x3-4 goal as fast as possible? I am on a bulking diet, taking in over 5000cals a day, and you saw my bench routine.....so give me some pointers.

 

[Lee]

dips are excellent tricep builders, and tricep curls. then start doing 5x5 with about 175

 

[rjl296]

WSB

 

[Debaser]

I know I might sound crazy, but...

How about adding 2 lbs to the bar each week? Eventually you'll hit that weight! Keep it simple.

 

[b fold the truth]

I know I might sound crazy, but...

How about adding 2 lbs to the bar each week? Eventually you'll hit that weight! Keep it simple.

You assume that by doing the bench press alone...that you will get stronger at the bench press?

I have found that to be quite the contrary.

B True

 

[Lee]

exactly B fold, i have found that dips improve my press consistancy and power, and tricep curls improve the amoun of weight i can do

 

[Debaser]

Well I'm saying he should be on a balanced routine, but...

most of you guys always say things like "what's your weak point, triceps, lats, etc?"

If he's only benching around 200 he doesn't have to worry about "weak points" because he can just add weight to that bar every week (including his other lifts) his muscles will supercompensate each week to allow for the small weight increase.

 

[b fold the truth]

Well I'm saying he should be on a balanced routine, but...

most of you guys always say things like "what's your weak point, triceps, lats, etc?"

If he's only benching around 200 he doesn't have to worry about "weak points" because he can just add weight to that bar every week (including his other lifts) his muscles will supercompensate each week to allow for the small weight increase.

One should ALWAYS focus on their weaknesses!!!!

Adding weight to the bar for someone who is benching in the 135-300 pound range...usually ends up with a shoulder/rotator cuff problem...because they didn't focus on their WEAK POINTS.

B True

 

[Debaser]

That and most people use shitty form...

Don't forget a flat bench press DOES WORK your shoulders and triceps. I know some VERY competent lifters that do not do any direct triceps work, and ONLY overhead press for shoulders, and bench over 400 NATURALLY. Because they concentrated on adding small amounts of weight to the bar nearly every week.

 

[b fold the truth]

That and most people use shitty form...

Don't forget a flat bench press DOES WORK your shoulders and triceps. I know some VERY competent lifters that do not do any direct triceps work, and ONLY overhead press for shoulders, and bench over 400 NATURALLY. Because they concentrated on adding small amounts of weight to the bar nearly every week.

You aren't talking about lifters who are concerned with putting up big numbers...are you?

Wasn't this guy asking about how to improve his max on his bench?

Sorry man...I don't mean to sound confrontational to you...I'd actually like to hear more input from 'juicy fruit' about his experience.

B True

 

[edgecrusher]

Juicy Fruit, we need more info, as to your total workout. I'd like to know what you do for muscles like your lats, tri's and delts as well.

B-fold, I don't want to sound like a jerk, but are you attempting to help Juicy Fruit, or challenge Debaser?

 

[Jxaxsxe530]

do less warm up sets. i found that since i dropped all warm up sets to just one or two, 33% of 1rm then 66% of 1rm, then i hit the heavy set, my bench has gone thru the roof. also if u use a spotter, make sure he DOES NOT help you lift the weight in any of the reps any given set. a spotter's job is to get the bar off ur chest when ur set is over. find ur max weight at 4 reps and work from there. no spotter, 1 or 2 really light warmup sets, take a 2, 3 minute breather, then get a guy to stand there to watch, then lift all the weight yourself. if u can only get 4 or 5, thas fine. dont attempt anymore set. time to eat and rest. i went from 225 to 265 (and it was EASY) in 2, 3 weeks. this week i'm going to do 285 and i think i can do it.

 

[st8k_lover]

I would suggest that you work your triceps with the same intensity and desire that you put into your bench routine. Heavy close grips, weighted dips and skull crushers will have you where you want to be in no time. Maybe try to warm up thoroughly and then jump up to the most weight you can handle for reps of 5-6 then pyramid the rep/weights down as you become fatigued. At least that is what I would do

Peace

 

[MidwestJ]

close grip bench...skull crushers. Emphasis on the close grip bench. Check out the powerlifting forum...search and then read. That's where you'll find the info

 

[PolishHammer1977]

Bump for Juicy

 

[b fold the truth]

B-fold, I don't want to sound like a jerk, but are you attempting to help Juicy Fruit, or challenge Debaser?

Well, actually, probably a little of both. I challenge his view of adding weight to the bar every week over focusing on your weak points..

Did that make sense?

B True

 

[juicy fruit]

Sorry guys.....heres my routine......

1) Monday - Chest and bi's

Flat Bench (4 sets as i mentioned above)
Incline Bench (Also 4 sets)
Incline Dumbell Presses (3 sets)
Fly's (3 sets)
Dips

2) Tuesday - Legs

3) Thursday - Tri's and shoulders

Shoulders - Military Press, Upright Rows, Dumbell Shoulder Presses, Dumbell Laterals

Tri's - Tricep Curls, Close-grip bench, Overhead Extensions, Skull Crushers, And inside dips for the tri's.

Friday - Back day, Rows, Pulldowns, Deads, Shrugs, Pullups, etc.

I hope this gives you guys some idea of my routine.
I started working out 9 months ago, I was benching 95 lbs. Today I am up to 205 on my last set for 4-5 reps or so like I said.......Cant wait to hit that 225 point. So...any more questions, let me know. Thanks again

 

[Debaser]

What you don't seem to understand is that he might not have a "weak point."

He may simply just need to increase his bench progressively till he hits that mark.

If someone said, I need to get my deadlift from 200 lbs to 500, would you tell them:

Ok you'll need to do a lot of back extensions to help your lower back, lots of shrugs to strengthen your traps, squats to help your leg strength, pullups for your lats, etc.

Uh, you do most of these exercises anyway. I would tell them "how about adding some weight to the bar every week? If your poundage is that low you don't have a sticking point, and I doubt your strength increases in that exercise have stagnated"

His question was NOT "I have a 350 lb bench and I need to get to 375, and I just CANNOT do even ONE POUND MORE, I'm STUCK"
and he said nothing about having problems adding weight to the bar (or reps) every week. So if he's naturally progressing, why would he need to work on all this accessory stuff?

 

[Debaser]

Sorry guys.....heres my routine......

1) Monday - Chest and bi's

Flat Bench (4 sets as i mentioned above)
Incline Bench (Also 4 sets)
Incline Dumbell Presses (3 sets)
Fly's (3 sets)
Dips

2) Tuesday - Legs

3) Thursday - Tri's and shoulders

Shoulders - Military Press, Upright Rows, Dumbell Shoulder Presses, Dumbell Laterals

Tri's - Tricep Curls, Close-grip bench, Overhead Extensions, Skull Crushers, And inside dips for the tri's.

Friday - Back day, Rows, Pulldowns, Deads, Shrugs, Pullups, etc.

I hope this gives you guys some idea of my routine.
I started working out 9 months ago, I was benching 95 lbs. Today I am up to 205 on my last set for 4-5 reps or so like I said.......Cant wait to hit that 225 point. So...any more questions, let me know. Thanks again

I see the problem right away. WAY TOO MUCH VOLUME. How can you expect to keep adding weight to the bar when you're overtraining your chest so badly? I just recommended something like this to someone else, and it would benefit you highly as well:

Monday

Bench press 2 x 6
Close grip bench 1 x 10
Overhead press 2 x 8
Barbell curl 2 x 8
Pullup 2 x 10
Hammer row 1-2 x 10

Thursday

Squat 1 x 20 OR 2 x 10-15
Stiff legged deads 1 x 12
Back hyper extension 1 x 10
Shrugs 1 x 10
Calf raise 1 x 12
Ab work

THE FOCUS SHOULD BE ON ADDING WEIGHT (or reps) TO THE BAR EVERY SINGLE WEEK. When you hit the muscles with over a dozen sets and train so often that you can't recover, this becomes impossible.

 

[edgecrusher]

First let me say, that 110 pounds in 9 months is great progress. I hope you are not doing all of those exercises you listed in one workout. Here is what i would recomend.

1) If you are staing w/ this split, pick 3 exercises for large muscle groups 2 for the smaller ones (ie arms.)

2) Keep your reps low and your weights high. For example, drop that last set of 135 till you fail on the bench. That will not help increase your overall power.

3) Keep the same exercises for at least 6 workouts, then alter them. Do not do barbell bench press every time you workout.

4) And probably most important, get plenty of rest. Your gains are made when you recover, no other time.

5) Stay focused and be persistent. Gains will come, they just take time.

Hope this helpful, and keep up the good work.

 

[louden_swain]

Juicy Fruit,

I think you are using too many sets and exercises. This is eating into your recovery time.

Here is how I perform incline presses:

I use 3 light warmup sets using 10,5,3 in reps.

On my building set, I take a heavy weight and hit it is hard as I can. . lets say I get 9 reps. I will then rack the weight for 10 seconds, then I will unrack and punch out an additional 2 or 3 reps. When I complete the last rep, I hold the weight just below the full lockout position for as long as I can until the weight starts to come downward. When this happens, I turn the downward motion into a controlled negative.

Guess what. . . . do all of this in one set. Yes thats right, in one set. After that my chest is severly blitz and there is no need to perform additional work.

Next workout, I will shoot for 10 reps, then I will use the rest pause method, static holds, and negatives again. It is nice to see progressive resistance.

Of course, it helps to have other strong muscle groups such as lats, delts, and triceps. However, if you are using too many sets for these muscle groups they will not be able to recover. When this happens, you run the risk of failing to perform 100 percent on your bench presses due to fatigued secondary muscle groups.

Bottom line is, learn how to take a set way beyond failure and learn how to lower the volume. When you accomplish this, I promise you that you will see results!!

Good luck!!

 

[PolishHammer1977]

So DC is working for you Loudin?

 

[dballistic]

I also have a similar problem adding weight to my bench. It's mostly because I have genetics for triceps... and they do all the work and just keep growing. What are some ways I can strengthen my chest without my bully triceps taking over?

 

[Debaser]

Perhaps you have some form issues on the bench.

I prefer dips, because they are MUCH simpler to do correctly than the bench, and just as (some would argue more) effective. And if your elbows are flared, you KNOW you're letting your chest to the majority of the work.

 

[b fold the truth]

What you don't seem to understand is that he might not have a "weak point."

He may simply just need to increase his bench progressively till he hits that mark.

If someone said, I need to get my deadlift from 200 lbs to 500, would you tell them:

Ok you'll need to do a lot of back extensions to help your lower back, lots of shrugs to strengthen your traps, squats to help your leg strength, pullups for your lats, etc..............

You don't do much strength training...do you?

B True

 

[spatts]

It's ok B....don't waste your time. What the hell do we know? I'm just a chick that benches around 300 and you're just one of North America's Strongest Men. Move on.

On a lighter note, why not do both? I hammer my weak points AND add weight every week.

 

[juicy fruit]

First of all let me say thanks for the replies.

Now, on to the comments about me overtraining. Let me give you me DETAILED Chest and Bicep day which I do on mondays. This is EXACTLY what I will do.

Flat Bench Press - 135x10 warmup, 185x8, 205x4-5, 135xFailure (I will drop this, what should I add instead or should I just do 3 sets?)

Incline Bench - 135x10, 155x8, 185x3
Incline Dumbell Presses - 55x10 warmup, 65x8, 75x6

Then I usually do EITHER 3 sets of Decline Bench or 3 sets of fly's and usually a Pec machine. Sometimes Dips.

Thus, for chest I am doing in the range of 13-16 sets.

THEN I move on to Biceps (Which I also am not sure if im overtraining or not) Here is what I usually do:

Standing Dumbell Curls: Warmup 30x10, 40x10,45x7, 50x5
Preacher Bar Curls Same sort of idea, 3 sets usually
Cable crushers (Standing in between two cables, arms out, bring in towards head 3 sets
Incline Seated Curls, 3 sets.
And I'll usually add a machine of some sort at the end for the biceps.

This folks is pretty much my Chest and Bicep routine, give or take, and I change it up on certain days. I get plenty of sleep, I eat like a horse, and have felt that I got enough rest....but now you guys got me worried. I see guys at my gym who look good, and I feel like my routine is usually a lot weaker then theirs seeing as how I come to the gym they are there, I leave, they are still there and usually seems like they do a lot more. So I've always felt that I wasn't overtraining my muscles.........You are not the first ones to point out that I may be though, my more experienced buddy has been telling me I do too many sets especially for bi's and tri's. However I do not even feel like I get a good pump until my 5th set for a given arm muscle, so I dont know. Let me know what you think guys and THANKS again!

 

[Gretak9]

I think you are definately overtraining. Listen to the advice given and try to rethink your workout. I lifted for about 6 years on a program like your current one and I went from like 175lbs to 190lbs in SIX YEARS!. After I started reducing my reps and increasing my intensity my strength shot up. I'm now doing the 5x5 w/ 265lbs. Also add deadlifts. Once I started doind deads my bench shot up about 20lbs.

 

[spatts]

If you're dead-set on splitting by body part, 5 x 5 is GREAT!

 

[jeremys]

It's ok B....don't waste your time. What the hell do we know? I'm just a chick that benches around 300 and you're just one of North America's Strongest Men. Move on.

lol, it's depressing that you can probably bench more than me

very cool though

 

[edgecrusher]

Way to much work on the bi's. See my last post.

 

[gmanlax7]

i think you should give louden's technique a shot. I find that if i have just one brutal set for a exercise, bench , deads, squats, the next day i will be as sore as if i did 5 sets, then just recover enough and you will FEEL that new stronger muscle next time. Its amazing how you can add 10-20 pounds to a lift the next week when the previous one you couldn't possibly have done it

 

[Debaser]

Spatts I respect both of your guys' strength.

But you make it sound like this guy needs WSB to get to fucking 225. When my bench gets stuck at 350 or so maybe THEN I'll worry about lagging parts that are bringing me down.

No offense b fold, your achievements are incredible, but you're giving people advice under the tone of "it worked for me it should work for you" I hate to break it to you but you aren't exactly genetically average. You have an enormous frame (8"+ wrists 11"+ ankles is huge) not to mention you're using/have used "super supplements." I dont think there's anything wrong with this at all, but you make it sound as if anyone on here can follow in your footsteps.

Even 5x5 is too much volume for the GENETICALLY AVERAGE NATURAL lifter. Needsize kicks ass too, I respect him and his hard earned knowledge. He also knows what he's talking about in training for WHAT WORKS FOR HIM and THOSE SIMILAR. But if the average nonjuicing lifter is reading "needsize's 5x5" they may as well be reading "ronnie coleman's olympia shock program."

I don't think I have superhuman genetics (slightly above average imo) and using low volume, highish intensity hardgainer (Stuart McRobert) magazine methods, or DC training which incorporates many of the same principles, I have gained so much that some of my coworkers think I'm juicing. I started training in May at 170 lbs. Just today I tipped the scale at 212 (about same BF as starting point). While some may think I don't have enough experience, I KNOW WHAT WORKS FOR THE GENETICALLY AVERAGE LIFTER. Not to mention these methods will work better than volume for an above average individual as well. Ask louden, who is an experienced bro, how well DC training has worked for him. And bignate you put on, what, 8 lbs in 3 weeks?

 

[DEEZEL]

I got my bench up from 205 to 275 by using this technique, lol. I do a warm up set, usually 135 x 12. And then I go straight to my max every week, adding more weight. By the time you get done doing your 3 sets, you aren't going to max out as much. I did chest today, this is what my bench sets looked like...

set 1: 135lbs x 15 (warmup)
set 2: 225lbs x 4 (max)
set 3: 205lbs x 6
set 4: 185lbs x 8

It works for me and makes sense if you think about it. Any of you vets use this type of workout? It works with all excersizes really. I think it's the best workout for optimal muscle growth.

 

[b fold the truth]

Spatts I respect both of your guys' strength.

But you make it sound like this guy needs WSB to get to fucking 225. When my bench gets stuck at 350 or so maybe THEN I'll worry about lagging parts that are bringing me down.

No offense b fold, your achievements are incredible, but you're giving people advice under the tone of "it worked for me it should work for you" I hate to break it to you but you aren't exactly genetically average. You have an enormous frame (8"+ wrists 11"+ ankles is huge) not to mention you're using/have used "super supplements." I dont think there's anything wrong with this at all, but you make it sound as if anyone on here can follow in your footsteps.

If it worked for me and THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of others...I'd think that it would give a pretty good idea that it would work for about anyone. I don't think I even mentioned using bands, chains, Reactive Method, DE and ME days, sled dragging, etc...NONE of that. I just said that he should focus on his weak points (and I didn't even say what they were...lol).

Now you come on here and talk about me having great genetics. You mean the same genetics when I was 6'2" and 152 pounds??? Next you come on here and accuse me of using 'super supplements'...lol.

Those who fail to plan...plan to fail. Your approach is to beat a dead horse till it dies...right? Don't use the good principles of strength till everything else has failed???

Anyway, either way, no matter which way...it is ok. I get a good laugh from your posts... Trolls are funny

B True

 

[t3c]

debaser, super suppliments? how about you stop posting, if i ever saw you in real life i would stab you in the face with a soldering iron

thanks

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

Okay, people go a little too far with the entire "everyone is different" thing. True, everyone is different. And true, everyone may have something that works better for them than others.

But when you break it down to the basics, as long as someone is TRAINING CORRECTLY, EATING BIG, and RESTING A TON -- they should be looking for some pretty good gains regardless if they're using the 5x5, a mimic of B-Fold's routine, WSB, DC's Routine...

So long as the basic guidelines are followed (don't go training the same bodypart 4x a week) you should be okay.

Stop taking everything to heart...

 

[Debaser]

Great genetics have little to do with starting weight. You always see these pics of pro BBs who were once skinny, so what? That doesn't mean they don't have great genetics to gain weight/strength. You can't tell me that the average man can pull 700+ lbs in the deadlift, I don't care if he trains his entire fucking life. Most people (males that is) have 7" or under wrists. You realize that your wrists are as big as some guys' (read: average or below) ANKLES? I'm not saying you didn't work your ass off to get where you are but I can't believe you can claim that you don't have great genetics.

Regarding WSB, IronAddict (one who has helped numerous amounts of trainees and one of the most knowledable people I know) said:

Obviously Louis has a lot of talent at his disposal, and well I’m not that talented. Training squats and bench twice a week over trained me pretty bad. I did a recommended 9 week routine pretty much verbatim, and when that didn’t work I reduced the volume some while sticking with the 4 day schedule. No dice. Knowing I over train easy even while on gear, and also knowing Westside techniques had merit, I simply went to benching one day doing max effort work first, followed by speed work and then assistance exercises. Same for squats. I do back/bi on the third training day.

both speed and max effort day you also do assistance excercises so it's not just a 50/50 split. Here is an example of a bench and squat w/o. It takes me an hour to and hour and 15 minutes to get through usually.

Bench:
3 board press. work up to a max single
speed bench using 60% of shirtless max 9 sets of 3
tricep extensions
tricep pushdown
lateral raise

Squat/Deadlift
good mornings work up to a max single (Louis reccomends doing some form of good mornings 60-70% of the time for max effort work. Many variations are done.
Speed squat 9 sets of 2
Glute ham raise
reverse hyper

I do back/bi and abs on a third day of the week. Let me emphasize this is NOT how Louis lays out his programs. He insists that speed and max effort work be done on separate days of the week. As mentioned in the previous post I attempted that and overtrained badly so modified it to suit my needs. IT WORKED ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC. I ADDED WEIGHT EVERY WORKOUT (except speed work) TO ALMOST EVERY EXCERCISE! The downside of it was it really tore my joints up bad and if your joints are not very robust you may have problems.

I could go on and list a hundred variations of productive routines for the AVERAGE person (not genetic freaks that can get away with training that kills Joe average) but I will leave you with this. The average person should NEVER train more than three days a week. IT JUST DOESN’T LEAVE ENOUGH OF THE BODIES RESOURCES LEFT FOR RECOVERY. DO NOT POST THAT IT WORKS WONDERS FOR YOU BECAUSE ALL YOU ARE STATING IS THAT YOU HAVE ABOVE AVERAGE GENETICS. MOST PEOPLE FALL FLAT ON THEIR FACES TRAINING FOUR OR MORE DAYS A WEEK AND STAY DOWN AS LONG AS THEY PERSIST TRAINING THAT FREQUENTLY.

 

[juicy fruit]

B fold..............do you mind reading my routine up top? And telling me if im overtraining? And I dont exactly understand the 5x5 WB technique.............if my max is about 220.........how many sets what weight and how many reps would i need to do for just bench press for example??? this is confusing me. Thanks.

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

If your max is 220 with the 5x5, start at maybe 185-190. Bench that for 5x5 once a week. Every week, assuming you completed all 25 reps (5x5) then add 5 lbs. to the bar the following week. By the time you hit 220 (your current max) you should be able to work past it. If you don't complete all 5x5 one week, and as long as you got at least 20 reps, stick with it.

I know an old article said 14 reps, but that's a bit too low. I'd say 18-20. If you land below 18, the lowest, then use a lower weight.

The purpose is to start at a weight you can easily do the 5x5 for, and concentrate on form. Try this out, and come back and tell us what your bench max is.

 

[juicy fruit]

If your max is 220 with the 5x5, start at maybe 185-190. Bench that for 5x5 once a week. Every week, assuming you completed all 25 reps (5x5) then add 5 lbs. to the bar the following week. By the time you hit 220 (your current max) you should be able to work past it. If you don't complete all 5x5 one week, and as long as you got at least 20 reps, stick with it.

I know an old article said 14 reps, but that's a bit too low. I'd say 18-20. If you land below 18, the lowest, then use a lower weight.

The purpose is to start at a weight you can easily do the 5x5 for, and concentrate on form. Try this out, and come back and tell us what your bench max is.

Sounds good man........Thats pretty clear. And this method should be used according to WSB for ALL exercises? How would one go about doing this for bicep curls for example? The same type of theory? Just use the same weight 5 times?

Also, lets say I do 5x5 method for chest, thats already 5 sets, so I would only have to throw in 2 more exercises at most? Incline and Db presses or something?

 

[RusPA81]

Sounds good man........Thats pretty clear. And this method should be used according to WSB for ALL exercises? How would one go about doing this for bicep curls for example? The same type of theory? Just use the same weight 5 times?

Also, lets say I do 5x5 method for chest, thats already 5 sets, so I would only have to throw in 2 more exercises at most? Incline and Db presses or something?

I don't know if you know this but 5x5 and WSB are completely different programs.

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

I'd do
9 sets for chest, back, quads
7 for shoulders, biceps, triceps, hams
5 for calves twice a week
4 for abs twice a week

That's how I've been doing it, and it's been working fine.

I wouldn't mix 5x5 and WSB, if that's what you're talking about. Just do solid 5x5, or straight WSB. And use the 5x5 with heavy compoud lifts. For example:

Chest: Inclined Bench (I prefer this)
Back: Deadlifts
Shoulders: Military Press
Triceps: Closegrip Bench Press
Biceps: Standing Bicep Curl
Quads: Squats
Calves: Standing Heel Raise

Train calves 5x15 though. They generally need higher reps to be hit good. As for the remaining exercises, I add 2 accessory exercises for the bodyparts I do 9 sets for (chest, back, quads).

For example, here is my chest workout currently...

Inclined Bench Press 5x5
Inclined Dumbbell Flies 2x8
Flat Bench Press 2x8

Always do the heavy 5x5 set FIRST.

I rest for 3 minutes between each 5x5 set, and 1m30s between each accessory exercise. Get some good music to pump you up, and while you wait try and visualize yourself doing the next set, hardcore, slow and steady with good form. That's what I do. I like to think it helps me, though that's questionable.

 

[Debaser]

Addendum, I apologize for the juice accusation b fold, I confused you with another large bro that was discussing his use.

 

[Rich_S]

I would recommend ditching all of the isolation exercises - Pec Decks, dumbell flys, lateral raise, etc. along with all of the incline work. Also, like others said, drastically cut back on the volume.

Your chest/shoulder/triceps routine should look something like this:

Bench Press
Weighted Dips
Military Press
Lying Skullcrushers

Do 3 sets of each. That's it. For someone who's only been training for 9 months, you should be able to put 20 lbs on your bench with a routine like this in 6-8 weeks.

 

[emptywallet]

It's ok B....don't waste your time. What the hell do we know? I'm just a chick that benches around 300 and you're just one of North America's Strongest Men. Move on.

On a lighter note, why not do both? I hammer my weak points AND add weight every week.

Why is what debaser saying in yours and B's eyes wrong? I totally try and add weight each week. I do however work on some of my week points. I know my weak point on some areas is coming out of the whole, like on deads, so I work on that. But I do try and add at least 10 pounds to my working sets each week on some compound exercises. Is that bad??

 

[JDarty6173]

Well as far as WSB is concerned, adding weight every week is one of its most basic principals.. Every ME you go heavier than your last ME day for that exercise.. Also on accessory work you constantly make small increases to the weight you use...

 

[spatts]

First of all, Debasser was the first to mention WSB. I don't see what that has to do with anything. When people can't form a logical argument about our training they default to "We can't all do Westside," or "You're a Louie worshiper." That argument bothered me, maybe, the first 100 times I heard it. Kinda "on to it" by now.

Empty Wallet, if you read the post I made, which you quoted, I specifically ask "Why not do both..."

I wasn't talking to debasser or anyone, really. I was telling B not to get worked up. We know what it takes for us. It's not worth it to tell someone else how to train. If they make it, great. If they don't, it's the thinning of the herd....buh-bye.

 

[Debaser]

You know what it takes for you guys, and that's fantastic. Ronnie Coleman and Lee Priest knows what it takes for them, too. Does that mean an average person should train the same way? Of course not.

B fold is one of America's strongest men. Most trainees cannot even come close to that mark. You have to be genetically suited to obtain that level of strength. This is NOT TO SAY that people cannot become MUCH STRONGER than what they already are. But the average person will not become as strong as possible by following the routines of those with incredible genetics.

Stuart McRobert, Hardgainer magazine, and the gurus that have followed in those footsteps have helped thousands of trainees achieve their goals. From those with bottom of the barrel genetics to those that are well-endowed. This is the training that will WORK. I'm sure Spatts, that you have heard "We can't all do Westside" before, because that's the truth, pure and simple. Doing all that volume (not Arnold-like volume but still) with all the compound lifts is simply TOO MUCH for many people. It's working great for you, obviously. That doesn't mean a trainee with piss poor genetics is going to be capable of handling such a load.

You said it correctly. "I know what works for me." Hey, I know what works for me too. However, I know methods of training that will work BETTER for the majority of people on this board than what routines they are currently embarking upon. And so I try to educate them. Sometimes I'm blunt, but sometimes you need to be. And judging by the huge number of posts on the DC sticky, I'd say many people are finally seeing the light of proper training.

 

[Legion Kreinak2]

You said it correctly. "I know what works for me." Hey, I know what works for me too. However, I know methods of training that will work BETTER for the majority of people on this board than what routines they are currently embarking upon. And so I try to educate them. Sometimes I'm blunt, but sometimes you need to be. And judging by the huge number of posts on the DC sticky, I'd say many people are finally seeing the light of proper training.

Okay I didn't really have a problem with your post, Debaser, until the last paragraph. First off, how can you say it will work better? You don't know that for sure. I just don't like how you emphasize that.

Second, about people seeing the light of "proper training"... what the hell does that mean? Oh okay, so anyone that's not blessed with good genetics is only considered to be properly training when on the program that you advocate just because it's worked for you and many others? Ya' know, alot of other routines, I'm sure, have worked for other people.

 

[Debaser]

Volume training, simply put, is inefficient and ineffective for the majority of people on this board. I'm saying my methods (or DC methods, or other similar ideas) will work better, because so many people always complain that they're not seeing decent gains, or they're getting injured, or what have you. They don't realize that they're overtrained following those stupid 4-5 day a week split routines. And YES, THEY ARE STUPID. They are perpetuated by the same conartists and bullshitters that abound in the supplement industry. Anyone who believes otherwise is naive. This is simply NOT a good way to train. I don't care who you are. If you have average or worse genetics, you will gain slowly or not at all on such a routine. If you have great genetics, you'll gain more quickly, but still NOT NEAR as quickly as if you were doing DC training, HST, or other similarly abbreviated training.

 

[b fold the truth]

At 20 years old...I knew it all.

At 25 years old and after 9 1/2 years of intense training and EARNING my pro card and going from 152-305 NATURALLY...I realize that at 20...I really knew VERY VERY LITTLE.

B True

 

[Zander1983]

At 20 years old...I knew it all.

At 25 years old and after 9 1/2 years of intense training and EARNING my pro card and going from 152-305 NATURALLY...I realize that at 20...I really knew VERY VERY LITTLE.

B True

b fold, don't waste your time. Your knowledge and experience is better placed where it is appreciated.

 

[Debaser]

I'm 21, but just because I haven't been training as long doesn't mean I lack knowledge. I know guys at the gym that have trained 10+ years that still don't know what the fuck they are doing.

I just preach what I KNOW WORKS, for the VAST majority of people. I might be 21, but the methods that I promote were created by people like Stuart McRobert, who has probably helped more people to realize their goals than any other man. Or DC, who has helped many gain HUGE amounts of muscle and is now over 300 lbs fairly lean. So you're saying these guys also know very little?

 

[TheProject]

I'm 21, but just because I haven't been training as long doesn't mean I lack knowledge. I know guys at the gym that have trained 10+ years that still don't know what the fuck they are doing.

I just preach what I KNOW WORKS, for the VAST majority of people. I might be 21, but the methods that I promote were created by people like Stuart McRobert, who has probably helped more people to realize their goals than any other man. Or DC, who has helped many gain HUGE amounts of muscle and is now over 300 lbs fairly lean. So you're saying these guys also know very little?

I believe you're the one saying others know very little. Seems you only respect the knowledge of those you agree with, and everyone else must be training incorrectly.

Stop throwing so many stones, and open your damn mind.

 

[emptywallet]

First of all, Debasser was the first to mention WSB. I don't see what that has to do with anything. When people can't form a logical argument about our training they default to "We can't all do Westside," or "You're a Louie worshiper." That argument bothered me, maybe, the first 100 times I heard it. Kinda "on to it" by now.

Empty Wallet, if you read the post I made, which you quoted, I specifically ask "Why not do both..."

I wasn't talking to debasser or anyone, really. I was telling B not to get worked up. We know what it takes for us. It's not worth it to tell someone else how to train. If they make it, great. If they don't, it's the thinning of the herd....buh-bye.

I think you may have taken my post to be attacking the way you and B were debating debaser, or maybe I'm just being to sensitive in reading yours. However I was not meaning to offend you and if I've touched a spot then please forgive me. I do try and add weight to my lifts and work on my weak points, and I see what you mean by teaching another to train. However isnt that the whole point of this board? I'd love to be able for you to look at certain things I do and tell suggestions and the like. I think you and I just got our wires crossed somewhere.

 

[Debaser]

I believe you're the one saying others know very little. Seems you only respect the knowledge of those you agree with, and everyone else must be training incorrectly.

Stop throwing so many stones, and open your damn mind.

If I didn't open my mind, I would still be doing a lame-ass volume routine. That's the whole point. If you honestly think that the routines that muscle & fitness, flex etc. promote are the way to go, then fine. Spin your wheels. Look at all the traffic on the anabolic board as opposed to the training board. Apparently, this is the average Elite Fitness lifters progress:

1. Tries a standard volume routine.
2. Gains become slower and slower.
3. Thinks he's hit his genetic ceiling when in reality could probably add at least 30 more pounds.
4. Tries gear.
5. Starts gaining again. Will make gains IN SPITE of improper training because of gear.

Realgains has commented on this many times and I tend to agree with him, so many people on here turn to gear because they don't realize that this volume bullshit is NOT the way to train for most people.

The routines that most people put here are not much different, volume is still volume. IronAddict put it best: If ALL you did was do squats, stiff legged deadlifts, bench (or dips) weighted pullups, and military or dumbell presses, BUT, since you ALWAYS recovered on this simple schedule (1-2 sets per exercise no more than 3 training days a week, 2 for most) and were able to add weight or reps every workout until you squatted 400 for 20, stiff legged 350 for 15, benched 315 for 12, did pullups with 100 lbs around your waist, and did dumbell presses with 3/4 bodyweight for 8 reps, how big would you be compared to where you are now? That is EXACTLY how many people without great genetics need to train to get big. It's also something they usually will never attempt because they are clueless about what a HUGE role recovery plays and how little training is actually needed to stimulate growth while still allowing recover to occur.

 

[spatts]

However isnt that the whole point of this board?

Yes. Exactly. We SHARE ideas, and methods, suggestions, etc... That's different from saying, "I do it this way, so everyone else should too." I don't care much for that.

 

[TheProject]

If I didn't open my mind, I would still be doing a lame-ass volume routine. That's the whole point. If you honestly think that the routines that muscle & fitness, flex etc. promote are the way to go, then fine. Spin your wheels. Look at all the traffic on the anabolic board as opposed to the training board. Apparently, this is the average Elite Fitness lifters progress:

1. Tries a standard volume routine.
2. Gains become slower and slower.
3. Thinks he's hit his genetic ceiling when in reality could probably add at least 30 more pounds.
4. Tries gear.
5. Starts gaining again. Will make gains IN SPITE of improper training because of gear.

Realgains has commented on this many times and I tend to agree with him, so many people on here turn to gear because they don't realize that this volume bullshit is NOT the way to train for most people.

The routines that most people put here are not much different, volume is still volume. IronAddict put it best: If ALL you did was do squats, stiff legged deadlifts, bench (or dips) weighted pullups, and military or dumbell presses, BUT, since you ALWAYS recovered on this simple schedule (1-2 sets per exercise no more than 3 training days a week, 2 for most) and were able to add weight or reps every workout until you squatted 400 for 20, stiff legged 350 for 15, benched 315 for 12, did pullups with 100 lbs around your waist, and did dumbell presses with 3/4 bodyweight for 8 reps, how big would you be compared to where you are now? That is EXACTLY how many people without great genetics need to train to get big. It's also something they usually will never attempt because they are clueless about what a HUGE role recovery plays and how little training is actually needed to stimulate growth while still allowing recover to occur.

As EVERYONE ELSE HAS TRIED TO TELL YOU:

We are proponents of what works. As has also been said: this is a board designed to share ideas, not come on here and say "your routine sucks, use this one, it's the only one that works." I think I can sum up all of your training board posts with that one sentence.

You did your resarch, found something you like, and I applaud that, I really do. But you can't seem to get the idea that there are people here that train with different routines, natural or not, and get results.

Taking gear without training hard will not net you good results, generally speaking.

You want to:

(A) Knock everyone else's routine, regardless of whether or not it works

(B) Attribute gains made on other routines to either being genetically gifted or using gear

(C) Otherwise attribute gains made to gear.

It's old, and tired.

 

[spatts]

I'm just still amazed that someone thinks WSB is high volume. I train, what? 45 mins, 4 days a week, and usually walk away feeling like I did nothing at all. I shock the hell out of myself when I actually max a lift, because I don't feel like I train hard enough to warrant the gains I get.

Sounds like someone was doing WSB wrong...which wouldn't surprise me. You can take 10 guys that think they train WSB, put them together, and find out they all do something different.

 

[Debaser]

TheProject: And as I have said before, if you're a proponent of what works, then why in the flying fuck would you ever support volume training? Sure "some" people make "some" gains but that doesn't mean it's all that effective. I know people that have gained doing 10 sets of 10. So fucking what? How many trainees here can deadlift 600 pounds? How many are even close? How many got there naturally, and ARE SMALL? Instead of focusing on fucking bullshit routines that have you doing 20 sets per bodypart to "ensure complete development" and hit the muscle from "all angles" whatever the fuck that is, how bout you try and achieve these huge lifts? I got news for you buddy, When you're [over]training 5 days a week it gets pretty fucking tough to consistantly add weight to the bar. I guarantee you'll plateau way before you exhaust your potential. But listen to the muscle mag routines, I'm sure those people have your best interests at heart. Forget Stuart McRobert and his brethren, who have helped god knows how many people realize their goals (higher goals than many people I see here that have done many cycles, by the way), and go read your latest issue of T-mag, AND YOU'LL GAIN 40 LBS IN 6 WEEKS!

spatts: I'm not saying it's "high volume" just highER volume than many can tolerate. Iron Addict followed it TO THE LETTER (and I know of few more experienced/knowledgable than he) and overtrained. He said many of the principles are great, and once he modified it to suit his recovery, he gained on every lift every week. He said the downside was his joints were torn up pretty bad, and that you need pretty robust joints to follow such a program.

 

[TheProject]

TheProject: And as I have said before, if you're a proponent of what works, then why in the flying fuck would you ever support volume training? Sure "some" people make "some" gains but that doesn't mean it's all that effective. I know people that have gained doing 10 sets of 10. So fucking what? How many trainees here can deadlift 600 pounds? How many are even close? How many got there naturally, and ARE SMALL? Instead of focusing on fucking bullshit routines that have you doing 20 sets per bodypart to "ensure complete development" and hit the muscle from "all angles" whatever the fuck that is, how bout you try and achieve these huge lifts? I got news for you buddy, When you're [over]training 5 days a week it gets pretty fucking tough to consistantly add weight to the bar. I guarantee you'll plateau way before you exhaust your potential. But listen to the muscle mag routines, I'm sure those people have your best interests at heart. Forget Stuart McRobert and his brethren, who have helped god knows how many people realize their goals (higher goals than many people I see here that have done many cycles, by the way), and go read your latest issue of T-mag, AND YOU'LL GAIN 40 LBS IN 6 WEEKS!

When have I ever said I support anything specifically except what has worked for me and others?

You've completely failed to address any of the points in my post.

 

[spatts]

spatts: I'm not saying it's "high volume" just highER volume than many can tolerate. Iron Addict followed it TO THE LETTER (and I know of few more experienced/knowledgable than he) and overtrained. He said many of the principles are great, and once he modified it to suit his recovery, he gained on every lift every week. He said the downside was his joints were torn up pretty bad, and that you need pretty robust joints to follow such a program.

Pop quiz: How often does a person follwing WSB "to the letter" complete a full ROM, 1RM lift?

What is the maximum number of lifts per workout advocated by the "incredible Louie" himself?

 

[Debaser]

When have I ever said I support anything specifically except what has worked for me and others?

You've completely failed to address any of the points in my post.

How many general philosophies of training are there? Okay, enlighten me, how do you train, since apparently it must not be any of the methods I've discussed. Anyway, if you can sum up all of my posts with that one sentence, that's fine. How many posts have you made that are nearing 500 replies and helping people to gain 2-3 pounds A WEEK? K. By the way, you didn't address any of my points, either.

You better fucking believe I'm going to knock volume training. Because it fucking sucks. I'm not pulling any punches here, it SUCKS. Sorry if this is somehow breaking news. I have a couple questions for you:

If you are not natural, when did you start juicing, what were your stats?

And if you are natural, what are your stats now and how many years did it take to reach those figures?

 

[spatts]

WE DON'T DO VOLUME TRAINING.

Fuck...I'm starting to think you're a troll, you're so dense. If I were DC I'd be embarrassed as hell to have you walking around representing me.

 

[Debaser]

Pop quiz: How often does a person follwing WSB "to the letter" complete a full ROM, 1RM lift?

What is the maximum number of lifts per workout advocated by the "incredible Louie" himself?

Well, I don't know much about Westside personally. Iron Addict has written about his experiences with it a few times, here is what he said on one of those occasions:

About a year and a half ago I embarked on a westside barbell schedule. I did it exactly as layed out by westside with a speed day for bench and squat and an ME day for each. I should have known it wouldn't work for me as I know I overtrain fairly easy, but had to know, so I tried it. I was stalemated after a little over a month. So I modified it and did my speed work and ME work on the same day, while reducing the volume on everything somewhat. It worked like a charm and I made AWESOME progress for about 5 months until my shoulders and elbows gave out. The ME work wasn't the culprit, the speed work absolutely ate my joints up. Since that time I have exchanged info with quite a few people that had the same thing occur. Big boned endomorps and meso's don't seem to be affected but those of us with smaller joints seem to get tore up pretty bad and quickly with it. Anyone else have the same thing occur. It's been about 6 months now since I went back to BB and my elbows are finally getting back to normal.

 

[b fold the truth]

I am having a vision...

If someone does not change their attitude, tone of voice, attacking members (especially with swear words directed directly at them)...then they will probably soon see themselves looking for another username...or another IP addy to post from.

Just a vision...

B True

 

[TheProject]

I am having a vision...

If someone does not change their attitude, tone of voice, attacking members (especially with swear words directed directly at them)...then they will probably soon see themselves looking for another username...or another IP addy to post from.

Just a vision...

B True

Exactly. Someone's trying to dogcrapp their way right off the board.

 

[spatts]

How often do I do a full rom 1 RM llift?

NEVER.

Why? IT'S HARD ON THE JOINTS...LEADS TO INJURY....LEADS TO OVERTRAINING. (light bulb)

Maximum number of lifts in a session 24. That's it...total....24. No more WSB high volume arguments from you, ok?

I wasn't trying to grow, but my small, tiny jointed frame put on about 20 natural pounds of muscle in 10 months training this way, and I went from a S/B/D of 285/45/0 to 385/270/430. I've been at this EXACTLY 10 months. Does it f**king matter? NO! Why? This thread is about how someone can increase his bench. You said how you would do it. B said how he would do it. JF can figure the rest out himself, based on WHAT WORKS.

You get more replies because you're confrontational, not because you're interesting or informed.

 

[Debaser]

How often do I do a full rom 1 RM llift?

NEVER.

Why? IT'S HARD ON THE JOINTS...LEADS TO INJURY....LEADS TO OVERTRAINING. (light bulb)

Maximum number of lifts in a session 24. That's it...total....24. No more WSB high volume arguments from you, ok?

I wasn't trying to grow, but my small, tiny jointed frame put on about 20 natural pounds of muscle in 10 months training this way, and I went from a S/B/D of 285/45/0 to 385/270/430. I've been at this EXACTLY 10 months. Does it f**king matter? NO! Why? This thread is about how someone can increase his bench. You said how you would do it. B said how he would do it. JF can figure the rest out himself, based on WHAT WORKS.

You get more replies because you're confrontational, not because you're interesting or informed.

IA said he followed it to the letter, who said he did the full ROM on the 1RMs? I understand where you are going but other things lead to overtraining, and he believed the speed work was responsible for the joint problems. I guess I could ask him but if he says he followed it correctly I believe him. Like I said he's one of the most knowledgable bros I know and has been in the game for decades, as well as helping many achieve goals they never thought possible (indirectly I'm one of those)

Spatts you misunderstand me, like I said I don't consider WSB high volume, just higher volume (as well as frequency) than what I promote for the average trainee, which is pretty easy to do if you saw the number of sets I prescribe for most people.

 

[Debaser]

And project you never did actually reply to me you just hid behind someone elses post. Are you afraid to answer my questions honestly because they may reveal that some of what I am saying is right?

 

[TheProject]

And project you never did actually reply to me you just hid behind someone elses post. Are you afraid to answer my questions honestly because they may reveal that some of what I am saying is right?

Excuse me? I'm the last person to hide behind anyone's post, and if you really want to see me get nasty, keep pushing.

Perhaps if you'd pull your head out of your ass for a minute, and read the boards, you wouldn't be asking me stupid questions.

I train with spatts and Hannibal, and have told you that before. In addition, all my stats, and pictures, are on the board in various locations. Furthermore, the results from my second PL comp are in a sticky at the top of the chat board, as well as in other threads here.

I've been training for a year and a half, and consider my numbers to be very good.

 

[zackdarnell]

I hate to butt in here, but your attitude really isnt accomplishing anything, Debaser. You're basically insulting people. I've got to agree with about everything B, Spatts, and Project have said on this thread. This whole thing started because you argued that he shouldn't work his weak points. You even said he might not have a weak point. Everyone has weak points!

And it seems to me like you are still referring to Westside as "volume training".

How many posts have you made that are nearing 500 replies and helping people to gain 2-3 pounds A WEEK? K.

Whats the big deal? You posted someone else's training program. Im not accusing you of plagiarising, because you gave all the credit to DC, but dont make yourself out to be the all-knowing post god. It wasnt so much your post that got the 500 replies, as the info which was in your post, which came from DC. I could have posted that and gotten hundreds of replies.

And if you are natural, what are your stats now and how many years did it take to reach those figures?

Natural
Training 1 year (powerlifting even less)
Squat 500
Bench 295
Deadlift 500
All lifts raw.

 

[emptywallet]

Yes. Exactly. We SHARE ideas, and methods, suggestions, etc... That's different from saying, "I do it this way, so everyone else should too." I don't care much for that.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh. It appears we did cross wires. I've been saying this from the beginning when he made an appearence in my thread. I don't mind his suggestions at all. Debaser, I think you have very valid opinions and make good points. Its just the way your communicating them to others that is striking your abilitiy to get through to us down. If the material was presented in a different way, as spatts and others imply, we would be alot more open to it. You and I came to an understanding in that last thread. Who's to say you and these guys can't? Even if you don't think your over reacting, the rest of us think you are, and if you'd just take a different approach other than "What I am doing is the end all to lifting", then alot of us would discuss almost anything you wanted with you. Spatts is this kinda along the lines of what you were saying?

 

[spatts]

And project you never did actually reply to me you just hid behind someone elses post. Are you afraid to answer my questions honestly because they may reveal that some of what I am saying is right?

You gave him exactly 14 minutes to reply before accusing him of hiding. He is a grown man with a real job, in the real world. He doesn't babysit your supercilious posts.

 

[Debaser]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh. It appears we did cross wires. I've been saying this from the beginning when he made an appearence in my thread. I don't mind his suggestions at all. Debaser, I think you have very valid opinions and make good points. Its just the way your communicating them to others that is striking your abilitiy to get through to us down. If the material was presented in a different way, as spatts and others imply, we would be alot more open to it. You and I came to an understanding in that last thread. Who's to say you and these guys can't? Even if you don't think your over reacting, the rest of us think you are, and if you'd just take a different approach other than "What I am doing is the end all to lifting", then alot of us would discuss almost anything you wanted with you. Spatts is this kinda along the lines of what you were saying?

Okay I'm typing this for the second time because I just lost this entire post, and dammit it was pretty long

spatts/bfold/project/etc I sincerely apologize for how I acted and realize that I can be hotheaded when it comes to being adamant about my ideas/methods. I just wanted to get that out of the way and state some things...

1. I am a "crusader" against volume training. I hate it with a passion. The reason I'm confrontational sometimes is that I can't count how many times I've seen a post like this:

MY CHEST WORKOUT LOL
8 SETS FLAT BENCH
7 SETS DECLINE BENCH
10 SETS INCLINE BENCH
3748 SETS FLYES
PEC DEC BURNOUTS
CABLE CROSSOVER REVERSE QUADRUPLE DROPSETS

WHY AM I NOT GANIGNG MUSSIL?!!!1

2. I have nothing against WSB. I believe it is a great protocol for those with good genetics, but not for those that have poor genetics. "Average" I'm not so sure about. I may try WSB one of these days.

3. This is sort of paraphrasing what IronAddict and DC have talked about, but I don't know how else to say it. Powerlifters in general train a lot smarter than bodybuilders. Because it's easy to measure their progress, more weight on the bar is an improvement. Many bodybuilders are confused and believe they need to hit muscles from multiple angles, with enough volume, among other things. This makes strength gains difficult and that should really be what they are after. If you're eating enough, and (in general) doing higher reps (not really high but I'd say 5 reps or more and not 1rms) then strength gains = size gains. Deepsquat will hit 420+ x 20 in the squat soon. How many trainees are really that strong or even close to it? I'm willing to be that deepsquat is not a small guy, and I highly doubt his legs are underdeveloped, even though he doesn't do 6+ leg exercises. Powerlifters continuously gain strength, I'd say not as much size as they COULD (due to either eating to stay in a wt class or doing lots of singles) as a whole they're gaining more than the avg bodybuilders.

4. To clarify and objectively discuss the original topic, I'll just say it without trying to step on very many toes.

bfold said that for the poster to increase his bench, to work on his weakpoints.

To an extent I agree, however, when his routine looks like this for chest:

Flat Bench (4 sets as i mentioned above)
Incline Bench (Also 4 sets)
Incline Dumbell Presses (3 sets)
Fly's (3 sets)
Dips [? sets]

The problem is not a weak point. The problem is he's unable to recover fully and become stronger because of overtraining. When I'm not doing DC (single set) training, this is what my chest routine looks like on my push day

Dips 2 x 6
Incline bench 1 x 8, rest pause to failure

Not enough? Well I manage to add weight, reps, or both every single workout.

Since he's obviously concerned more with benching I'd simply change those dips to bench presses. But he should easily be recovering from my proposed schedule, and thus be able to add weight, 1-2 lbs a week (maybe more) and progress. If he took your advice to work on weakpoints, I'm sure he would probably just add EVEN MORE volume to different bodyparts, and become even further overtrained. Some people ask how you can add 1-2 lbs per week or less, one of the best investments you'll make is in small plates

http://www.fractionalplates.com

whew, hope I don't lose the post this time

 

[spatts]

Thanks, debasser. That was a great post.

Let me tell you why B and I (and many others) like to center our accessory work around our weakness. Knowing your weakness is a valuable TOOL, if nothing else. For example, when I got done with the "body building days" I had such messed up shoulders that I couldn't even bench the bar anymore. I switched to powerlifting, and that by default means better form. A powerlifter with poor form is not a powerlifter for long, lol. Last summer, after a few months in PL training, and after alot of band rehab for my shoulders, I noticed that my 4 inch rack lockout on bench was a whopping 403 pounds, but my floor press was only 177. My lockout would climb and climb while my floor press just held stagnant. This told me that my shoulders were still very weak, and in fact ALOT weaker than my triceps (which are used to lock out). I continued to work my triceps, but also did specialized work to bring my rotator cuffs up to speed. Lo and behold, a few months later, my floor press magically jumped over 200 pounds. I added about 25 pounds to my shoulder strength on the bench. The important question is what moves "carry over" and which don't. Well, I KNOW this carries over, because my raw bench jumped from 177 (yeah, see that? Raw total bench was NO STRONGER THAN THE WEAKEST LINK), to 225. The 260 that left my shoulders in pain for a month just 12 weeks ago, flew up as my 2nd attempt at the comp this weekend, and the 270 pounds bench went up really easy too....and no pain.

It's a TOOL to know your weakness. It helps you AVOID injury by knowing your limits, it helps because it provides the opportunity to increase strength without having to move through a full ROM (partials, partials, partials), increase the speed of progress, etc. This is not unique to WSB, or any method. It just makes sense to annihilate your weaknesses.

I have yet to lift the same weight twice in a row on any move. Period. Anything less would be terribly disappointing to me, at this point. Even if it's just a couple pounds.

There are SO many tools at my disposal, and I like to use as many as I'm blessed with.

 

[Debaser]

I'm a firm believe in rotator cuff work too, I do L-flyes and occasionally cuban presses.

 

[spatts]

I think you're missing my point.

Out of floor press, 2 board, 3 board, 4 board, 5 board, lockouts (bottom to top) my raw max has NEVER been more than the lowest of those numbers.

See what I'm getting at?

 

[emptywallet]

Okay I'm typing this for the second time because I just lost this entire post, and dammit it was pretty long

spatts/bfold/project/etc I sincerely apologize for how I acted and realize that I can be hotheaded when it comes to being adamant about my ideas/methods. I just wanted to get that out of the way and state some things...

Dude. I really liked the whole post. See how easy that was? Good show man.

 

[Debaser]

I think you're missing my point.

Out of floor press, 2 board, 3 board, 4 board, 5 board, lockouts (bottom to top) my raw max has NEVER been more than the lowest of those numbers.

See what I'm getting at?

Oh yeah I understand completely. I was just commenting on the fact that I believe rotator cuff work is essential, no matter what type of training you embark on.

I'm all for working on weak points, but only within the context of an applicable program, like WSB or other lower volume methods. The routine he's on would need to be changed drastically to accomodate attention to weaknesses, IMO.

 

[R CRUSHER]

though i don't use a full blown WSB routine, DE bench was hell on my elbows also, i strongly believe in the "find your weakness" and hammer it.

it's like your benchpress is a chain and one of those links is going to be weaker than the rest.it will only withstand the weight that will break the weakest link.

finding the right exercise for your weakness is the key. for example the floorpress works my midpoint weakness perfect, but for my partner who has the same midpoint weakness the floorpress is useless his girth(gut) is much bigger that mine so the floor is like a 1 boardpress for him and hits the bottom.

FIND THE WEAK LINK! HAMMER IT

 

[skaman607]

so you're saying I shouldn't ever do full ROM 1rm lifts? Because if you are then I'm in trouble