Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below evilution79
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Can a person be big, as in muscular, without being very strong or is strength necessary for muscular development? I know you can be small and strong (powerlifters), but how about the other way around.
Be Big W/O Being Strong
- Thread starter evilution79
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Of course you can!
Just look at most pro bodybuilders. There are guys on the Olympia stage who can barely bench 315. No lie. That is an anomally however, most are reasonably strong but it is definitely possible to be damn big but very weak for one's size.
kind regards,
jeremy
Just look at most pro bodybuilders. There are guys on the Olympia stage who can barely bench 315. No lie. That is an anomally however, most are reasonably strong but it is definitely possible to be damn big but very weak for one's size.
kind regards,
jeremy
Cackerot69
New member
Strong is a relative term, but no you can't gain muscle without getting stronger.
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Re: Of course you can!
Dude, those guys are all fucking strong! Perhaps they can't squat 1000 pounds, but powerlifting is a lot of technique. And, really, do you truely believe that there's an Olympia competitor that can't even bench 315? You're nuts if you do.
Jeremy21 said:
Dude, those guys are all fucking strong! Perhaps they can't squat 1000 pounds, but powerlifting is a lot of technique. And, really, do you truely believe that there's an Olympia competitor that can't even bench 315? You're nuts if you do.
evilution79
New member
Cackerot69 said:
So if someone gains strength, they have also gained muscle? Likewise if someone loses strength, they have lost muscle? It is strange because I see some significantly smaller people bench more than me when I have about 15 lbs overall lean mass than them. I have also squated more than some of the bigger guys in the gym.
Cackerot69
New member
"So if someone gains strength, they have also gained muscle? Likewise if someone loses strength, they have lost muscle? It is strange because I see some significantly smaller people bench more than me when I have about 15 lbs overall lean mass than them. I have also squated more than some of the bigger guys in the gym."
I did not say that, so please don't put words in my mouth. You can get stronger without getting bigger through increased nervous system efiiceincy, tendon, strength, favorable mechanics, among other things. But, a bigger muscle (note, actual muscle) will always be stronger because more actin and myosin produces more strength along with a larger sarcoplasm which are the two ways a muscle can grow. So, those guys that are smaller than you but are stronger are because of neural, tendon, mechanical or other non-hypertrophy related factors.
I did not say that, so please don't put words in my mouth. You can get stronger without getting bigger through increased nervous system efiiceincy, tendon, strength, favorable mechanics, among other things. But, a bigger muscle (note, actual muscle) will always be stronger because more actin and myosin produces more strength along with a larger sarcoplasm which are the two ways a muscle can grow. So, those guys that are smaller than you but are stronger are because of neural, tendon, mechanical or other non-hypertrophy related factors.
A bodybuilder's arms..
When you see massive arms on a bodybuilder don't assume that they are extremely strone. There are various types of hypertrophy and due to the typical bb'ers training style etc they increase in muscle size but that size increase is largely due to non-contractile tissue
When you see massive arms on a bodybuilder don't assume that they are extremely strone. There are various types of hypertrophy and due to the typical bb'ers training style etc they increase in muscle size but that size increase is largely due to non-contractile tissue
Same here -- I've got a huge chest, but it's one of my weakest (proportionally) bodyparts.
I think we can state as a general principal that going heavy will make you big. But that's not what bodybuilding is about. A guy who trains with moderate weight on upper, middle, lower, inner and outer pecs, focusing on what each movement is doing, is going to have a much fuller, deeper chest than a guy who just comes in and benches huge amounts of weight.
I think we can state as a general principal that going heavy will make you big. But that's not what bodybuilding is about. A guy who trains with moderate weight on upper, middle, lower, inner and outer pecs, focusing on what each movement is doing, is going to have a much fuller, deeper chest than a guy who just comes in and benches huge amounts of weight.
Cackerot69
New member
"A guy who trains with moderate weight on upper, middle, lower, inner and outer pecs, focusing on what each movement is doing, is going to have a much fuller, deeper chest than a guy who just comes in and benches huge amounts of weight."
Hahahaha...
Hahahaha...
well, hell, ya can't argue with that logic. There ya go, just focus on making your bench as strong as possible, and ignore everything else. That'll give ya the body every bodybuilder dreams of.
There's a difference between powerlifting and bodybuilding, crackpot69. Sure there's huge overlap. But the question was is it possible to have big muscles without super strength. The answer is yes.
Now do you have anything intelligent to say, or will you stick with those two letters you've mastered so effectively?
There's a difference between powerlifting and bodybuilding, crackpot69. Sure there's huge overlap. But the question was is it possible to have big muscles without super strength. The answer is yes.
Now do you have anything intelligent to say, or will you stick with those two letters you've mastered so effectively?
MonStar1023
New member
Whatsup yeah I dont know Im pretty big (5'11" 220 lbs.) and I dont think that I am all that strong. I dont flat bench much at all but I only incline maybe 235-245 lbs. 1RP max. I dont know my arm strength isnt too strong either I could probably strict curl maybe 135 lbs. 1RP max. My calves and forearms are pretty strong though. I dont know. I dont think I am all that strong for my size at all.
Cackerot69
New member
"well, hell, ya can't argue with that logic. There ya go, just focus on making your bench as strong as possible, and ignore everything else. That'll give ya the body every bodybuilder dreams of.
There's a difference between powerlifting and bodybuilding, crackpot69. Sure there's huge overlap. But the question was is it possible to have big muscles without super strength. The answer is yes.
Now do you have anything intelligent to say, or will you stick with those two letters you've mastered so effectively?"
You asked for it. Yes, there are differences between mass and strength routines, but it has nothing to do with focusing on the muscle being worked: "Train movements not muscles". Here are the differences between mass training and strength training:
More mass DOES = strength because a larger muscle will have more actin and myosin filaments which cross-bridge and cause the muscle to contract (if activated). More strength doesn't necessarily equal more muscle because other factors do contribute, though.
Training for strength and mass should be different because strength is primarily neural. You train the nervous system for strength optimization with heavy weight/low rep training. You would also want to wait a while between sets (3-5 minutes) as to let ATP replenish to 100% and allow enough time for lactic acid to clear.
Training for hypertrophy requires more than one rep range to stimulate the various ways a muscle can grow. You need low rep (3-7)/heavy weight/explosive contraction training to stimulate myofibrillar growth of the IIB's and fibers, and high rep (10-20)/medium weight/slow contraction to stimulate sarcoplasmic growth of the IIB's and myofibrillar IIA's and of the I's.
Another thing is that muscle growth training should involve a greater variety of exercises to recruit more/different motor units and consequently more muscle fibers will be stimulated and with nutritional support - more growth.
Strength training is better suited for a small number of exercises because strength is very specific. You want to optimize your nervous system in each specific movement (squat, dead, bench) and pretty much ignore any additional work except assistance work where needed.
There's a difference between powerlifting and bodybuilding, crackpot69. Sure there's huge overlap. But the question was is it possible to have big muscles without super strength. The answer is yes.
Now do you have anything intelligent to say, or will you stick with those two letters you've mastered so effectively?"
You asked for it. Yes, there are differences between mass and strength routines, but it has nothing to do with focusing on the muscle being worked: "Train movements not muscles". Here are the differences between mass training and strength training:
More mass DOES = strength because a larger muscle will have more actin and myosin filaments which cross-bridge and cause the muscle to contract (if activated). More strength doesn't necessarily equal more muscle because other factors do contribute, though.
Training for strength and mass should be different because strength is primarily neural. You train the nervous system for strength optimization with heavy weight/low rep training. You would also want to wait a while between sets (3-5 minutes) as to let ATP replenish to 100% and allow enough time for lactic acid to clear.
Training for hypertrophy requires more than one rep range to stimulate the various ways a muscle can grow. You need low rep (3-7)/heavy weight/explosive contraction training to stimulate myofibrillar growth of the IIB's and fibers, and high rep (10-20)/medium weight/slow contraction to stimulate sarcoplasmic growth of the IIB's and myofibrillar IIA's and of the I's.
Another thing is that muscle growth training should involve a greater variety of exercises to recruit more/different motor units and consequently more muscle fibers will be stimulated and with nutritional support - more growth.
Strength training is better suited for a small number of exercises because strength is very specific. You want to optimize your nervous system in each specific movement (squat, dead, bench) and pretty much ignore any additional work except assistance work where needed.
Poliquin DOES say that there are guys up on the Olympia stage that can only get 315 up a few times. (I believe he said 6 reps). Which would mean that they could top out 375 or 400, tops. Kind of funny that way. Yeah, they're strong as hell! But not as strong as you would think. It's a lesson in non-functional hypertrophy.
maxellyz
New member
Re: You can guarantee it eh?
that has to be bs, i mean 315 is nothing for those guys
dennis james ttrains with 420 lb incline bench
dexter jackson 400lb bench
levrone 450lb bench
ronnie coleman well he is strong like a oxe he plays with the 200 lb dumbbells.
lee priest 400lb bench
and so on..................
Jeremy21 said:
that has to be bs, i mean 315 is nothing for those guys
dennis james ttrains with 420 lb incline bench
dexter jackson 400lb bench
levrone 450lb bench
ronnie coleman well he is strong like a oxe he plays with the 200 lb dumbbells.
lee priest 400lb bench
and so on..................
Well...
You can't assume that a 315 bench press 6 times means an automatic 375-400 1 rep max. Mathmatical calculations don't apply to the process of metabolic work. And.. he said that he knows of a few who can't bench it 6 times, so lets assume they can bench it 4 times, those 4 times are probably in atrocious form. Which mean that they probably have a 330 max in perfect form. Many pro bodybuilders I've seen working out don't exactly have picture perfect form by any means. Again many pros are very strong but they often aren't anywhere near as strong as advertised. The top 198 lb power lifters in the world are about a bazillion times (rough estimate ^_^ ) stronger than the top bodybuilders even though they are much lighter (by 60-100 lbs or more), have a higher bodyfat % and aren't on anywhere near the amount of drugs on average. The main hypertrophy a bodybuilder experiences is hypertrophy of non-contractile tissues. Heck, Arnold's best competition bench when he was power lifting was only in the high 300's. Yes many pro bodybuilders are semi strong but they are pretty damn weak for their size when compared to strength athletes. It all a matter of what you train for.
kind regards,
jeremy
You can't assume that a 315 bench press 6 times means an automatic 375-400 1 rep max. Mathmatical calculations don't apply to the process of metabolic work. And.. he said that he knows of a few who can't bench it 6 times, so lets assume they can bench it 4 times, those 4 times are probably in atrocious form. Which mean that they probably have a 330 max in perfect form. Many pro bodybuilders I've seen working out don't exactly have picture perfect form by any means. Again many pros are very strong but they often aren't anywhere near as strong as advertised. The top 198 lb power lifters in the world are about a bazillion times (rough estimate ^_^ ) stronger than the top bodybuilders even though they are much lighter (by 60-100 lbs or more), have a higher bodyfat % and aren't on anywhere near the amount of drugs on average. The main hypertrophy a bodybuilder experiences is hypertrophy of non-contractile tissues. Heck, Arnold's best competition bench when he was power lifting was only in the high 300's. Yes many pro bodybuilders are semi strong but they are pretty damn weak for their size when compared to strength athletes. It all a matter of what you train for.
kind regards,
jeremy
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