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CoolColJ said:
I see your point...but do agree with the box squats. I, honestly, believe that they are the best squat out there because they do so much good for so many different goals.
Maybe it was my form, but I could only OL full squat for 4 weeks at a time before I either had hip or knee pains. I don't get that with box squats. The box squats have a huge carry over to my deadlifts and events too (which mostly require a strong back side).
I don't consider the box squat a 'partial lift'. I consider the partial squat a partial lift (1/4 squats) but not the box squat. I still go below parallel.
B True
CoolColJ said:
Absolute strength not important? Football, wrestling...which sports in general are you talking about?
CoolColJ said:The core strength needed in say sprinting is nothing like what you use when squatting. Trust me on this
I agree, but the question was parallel wide box squats or oly squats...they both are squats. SO neither are effective for working the abs by your logic. You can choose your ab work as it pertains to your individual goals.
CoolColJ said:
All things being equal....wouldn't an athlete that could generate maximum force with 350lbs on the bar be more successful than an athlete that could only generate maximum force with 250lbs on the bar. I guarantee if those two were to meet...I know which one I would bet on.
Thats why you train for speed as well as absolute power on two seperate days. A football player better know how to strain for more than 0.2 seconds or he will be on his ass, and then out of a job if he is a pro.
It is rare that you find an athlete in a position where his hips are that far below his knee(like an oly squat)...if so he is already in trouble. Thats why I dont understand emphasizing that position in training when the wider parallel squat will contribute to overall strength so much more effectively. I never said not to do oly squats....but I would do them as a supplemental exercise.
S
slobberknocker
Guest
Well, if you ask my college's football strength coach, he'd tell you to do neither since "squats are bad for your knees."
coolcolj
New member
Strength work should be general not angle specfic, that's why you work the muscle through a full ROM, because you will never use the exact same angles you squat in when in sports
A lot of people are strong, but they can't apply that strength on the field. One of the few that can would have to be Adam Archuletta. But he doesn't spend more time trying to get stronger. Once you get to a certain strength level getting stronger won't help you on the field, because you can't apply it - your wasting training time looking for more strength. And if you see how he trains, you can see why he can apply more of his strength on the field. It's not just about training fast, there is a lot more to it than that - such as absorbing force and redirecting it. Having a big squat doesn't help you in such areas.
All contact in any sport is very brief, even when pushing someone, you can't really apply all your force for more than a split second, because your constantly shifting your body and angles of direction etc.
All weight training is for an athlete is assitance for his sport. No one will ask you how much you can squat on the field
There are so many instances where people with bigger numbers don't jump, throw etc further than other weaker people. There is a lot more to explosiveness than just squatting fast or heavy.
We could argue all day, but for me full ROM is the way to go.
Strength gained in the stretched positions transfer to the entire ROM. While the reverse doesn't hold true
A lot of people are strong, but they can't apply that strength on the field. One of the few that can would have to be Adam Archuletta. But he doesn't spend more time trying to get stronger. Once you get to a certain strength level getting stronger won't help you on the field, because you can't apply it - your wasting training time looking for more strength. And if you see how he trains, you can see why he can apply more of his strength on the field. It's not just about training fast, there is a lot more to it than that - such as absorbing force and redirecting it. Having a big squat doesn't help you in such areas.
All contact in any sport is very brief, even when pushing someone, you can't really apply all your force for more than a split second, because your constantly shifting your body and angles of direction etc.
All weight training is for an athlete is assitance for his sport. No one will ask you how much you can squat on the field
There are so many instances where people with bigger numbers don't jump, throw etc further than other weaker people. There is a lot more to explosiveness than just squatting fast or heavy.
We could argue all day, but for me full ROM is the way to go.
Strength gained in the stretched positions transfer to the entire ROM. While the reverse doesn't hold true
edgecrusher
New member
slobberknocker said:Well, if you ask my college's football strength coach, he'd tell you to do neither since "squats are bad for your knees."
Gotta love those HITters aye Slobber?
CCJ: I just watched all the OL clips that you put up the other day and I thank you for them A LOT!!! They will go into my mpeg video library.
I noticed a few things.
When they did full high bar squats OR front squats...they are just as deep or maybe about 1" deeper than my box squats are. My box squats are about 1" below parallel and WSB suggests 2" I believe. I don't see where depth is a real issue in comparison between the OL Squat and the wide stanced box squat on depth...
When the lifters catch the clean or snatch at the bottom in the full squat position...they are closer to the stance width of a wide stance box squat than a close stance OL squat. Well, I'd say that it is somewhere in between the two to be honest.
I know very little about OL lifting (as you know for sure...lol) and I hope that you take note of that.
I have worked with quite a few athletes though and a common weakness that I seen in them is hip strength. Another weakness is the strength of every muscle in the back side of the body. The box squat hits ALL of those muscles. I really can't say that about the OL Squat for myself. Once again...it is just my experience.
Also, I hope that you note that I do box squats, high bar OL squats, wide stanced free squats, and front squats. I believe that ALL of them serve a good and big purpose for the athlete and their development.
Please...give me your thoughts...I'm really interested in what you think.
B True
I noticed a few things.
When they did full high bar squats OR front squats...they are just as deep or maybe about 1" deeper than my box squats are. My box squats are about 1" below parallel and WSB suggests 2" I believe. I don't see where depth is a real issue in comparison between the OL Squat and the wide stanced box squat on depth...
When the lifters catch the clean or snatch at the bottom in the full squat position...they are closer to the stance width of a wide stance box squat than a close stance OL squat. Well, I'd say that it is somewhere in between the two to be honest.
I know very little about OL lifting (as you know for sure...lol) and I hope that you take note of that.
I have worked with quite a few athletes though and a common weakness that I seen in them is hip strength. Another weakness is the strength of every muscle in the back side of the body. The box squat hits ALL of those muscles. I really can't say that about the OL Squat for myself. Once again...it is just my experience.
Also, I hope that you note that I do box squats, high bar OL squats, wide stanced free squats, and front squats. I believe that ALL of them serve a good and big purpose for the athlete and their development.
Please...give me your thoughts...I'm really interested in what you think.
B True
kiloamp
New member
b fold the truth said:
Typically an Olympic lifter will backsquat with the stance he uses for the pull and front squat with the stance he uses to catch the weight. So, for the majority of Olympic lifters and there are many exceptions, you will see about shoulder width foot spacing for backsquats and slightly wider for front squats. The wider foot spacing allows for the hips to drop below the ankles necessary for catching the weight low on the heavy ones.
coolcolj
New member
b fold the truth said:
Well when people look at squat depth they forget the most important thing, joint ROM. You butt maybe as low as the olylifters, but your knee angle is not the same. It's not just the hip angle, its the knee angle as well. Typically when most olylifters do fullsquats, the hip crease will not be much lower than parallel, unless they are really skinny, But the knee angle will be really acute. Also with a wide stance, the ROM is also shortened slightly.
With a box squat one must also lean quite a bit forward to sitback, whereas when one rises out of cleans and snatches you have to be upright and the hips will be closer to the ankles.
Plus in boxsquats the centre of gravity is behind the ankles, so the muscles have to flex forward rather than upwards.
Boxsquats can help pulling power, but because of the double knee rebend in the 2nd pull, again the body is position is actually closer to a high bar squat - knees forward, torso quite upright, centre of gravity slightly forward - except in the snatch where you are quiet bent over forward.
I've put boxsquats forward to CT before, and he says if they did help, elite olylifters would be doing them. There is another guy I know on Dr squat, whose coach knows Louie, and he has taught him box squats. He did try them but found they did not help oly recovery strength.
When you rise from a clean/snatch recovery, it's leg strength, rather than hip strength that's the main factor since your can't really lean to far forward. I would say olylifters are not weak in the hips and posterior chain as a rule, because of the amount of heavy pulls they do. They really are pulling machines, and pulls hit the posterior chain hard. You need strong glutes to pull heavy cleans in the correct body position from the floor. Unlike powerlifting deadlifts, your back has to remain at the same angle, and this requires strong glutes, hams and erectors.
Olysquats don't tax the erectors as hard, but do hit the abs harder becuase of the more upright stance. With the amount of pulls olylifters do this is probbaly a good thing
there are good mornings and other things for that.
Don't forget that Olylifts do quite a bit of heavy drop snatches and frontsquats with the same stance they use for recovery strength.
For myself, I have a big butt and hams from olysquats, even the way I do front squats nail my hams and glutes just as hard as my quads
I just find full squats to be more of a general all rounder that hits all the muscles of the lower body evenly. But that just maybe for my body type, and squatting style who knows. That is appealing in itself, you save time by not having to do different squats etc.
I have dabbled a bit in boxsquats as you may recall. I can't tell if they helped or not. I am willing to try everything once or twice, whatever it takes.
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