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aromasin dosage ?
- Thread starter mike1107
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lawnsaver
New member
mvmaxx said:25mg/EOD if your not too worried about gyno sides and that may cover it anyway. I'm a paranoid mofo so I run 25mg/ED.
But what about it having propeties to irriversably stop the aromatase enzyme?? Would we have to keep taking it?? Could be lower the dose the longer we take it?? I am curious on these aspects of aromasin
Zyg's initial post on Aromasin - now in "the best of Elite" shows that 25mg of Aromasin compares with 2.5mg of Femara and 1mg of Liquidex. After seeing other studies and other users experiences, as well as my own, I'd say that the Liquidex is absolutely no match for the Aromasin. I'm sure Liquidex will work in 90% of people that want to control estrogen but for me I'm looking for the ultimate protection. So far Aromasin has worked wonderful.
lawnsaver
New member
mvmaxx said:
I completely understand that the doses are comparable, but aromasin is not an aromatase inhibitor, it is an aromatse deactivator. It is said in a lot of medical abstracts that aromasin's actions are permenant. What I am trying to find out is, is there a point where we can lower the dose, or stop it all together?? We also need estrogen to grow, I wouldnt want to stop all estrogen production.
Do you understand what I am getting at??
This is something truely important to get a grip on.
I understand where you're going but I can't say I believe that aromasin is an aromatase deactivator for any length of time. I'm not doubting that it does this I just don't believe it continues with this operation for very long after stopping administration.
Case in point: I'm on Aromasin 25mg/ED with my prop/tren cycle. I already have a slight bit of preexisting gyno and so far it has not gotten worse at all. However, during my cycle I didn't take Aromasin for about 3 days and I did start to feel the gland getting sensitive. I threw in some Nolvadex for a few days and got back on the Aromasin. So far all has been good.
I just can't decide how long I should run it post cycle. Again, I'm taking all precautions during so I'm trying to do the same post cycle. But like you said estrogen is important and I feel I've been suppressing it for a long time.
Case in point: I'm on Aromasin 25mg/ED with my prop/tren cycle. I already have a slight bit of preexisting gyno and so far it has not gotten worse at all. However, during my cycle I didn't take Aromasin for about 3 days and I did start to feel the gland getting sensitive. I threw in some Nolvadex for a few days and got back on the Aromasin. So far all has been good.
I just can't decide how long I should run it post cycle. Again, I'm taking all precautions during so I'm trying to do the same post cycle. But like you said estrogen is important and I feel I've been suppressing it for a long time.
lawnsaver
New member
Ok, I found this info on Zyg's post!
After a single dose of exemestane 25 mg, the maximal suppression of circulating estrogens(98%), occurred 2 to 3 days after dosing and persisted for 4 to 5 days.
If this is the case, then we could easily take Aromasin every 3rd or 4th day. Correct? This would make aromasin a lot more cost effective. Again we do need estrogen for growth, so taking aromasin EOD might completely suppress our estrogen production, which can not be good.
Any thoughts??
After a single dose of exemestane 25 mg, the maximal suppression of circulating estrogens(98%), occurred 2 to 3 days after dosing and persisted for 4 to 5 days.
If this is the case, then we could easily take Aromasin every 3rd or 4th day. Correct? This would make aromasin a lot more cost effective. Again we do need estrogen for growth, so taking aromasin EOD might completely suppress our estrogen production, which can not be good.
Any thoughts??
LAWNSAVER said:
It's actually not an aromatase "deactivator", it's an irreversible (or suicidal) inhibitor. Reversible inhibitors like Femara and Arimidex can be "knocked off" the aromatase enzyme with an excess in aromatizing gear, hence the term "reversible". Aromasin cannot. The benefit for that is to be able to use 3g of test without worrying about E2 sides.
The reason I'm going to be using Aromasin next tren/prop cycle is a) it's easier on your lipid profile than Arimidex
b) 1mg of Arimidex ed still keeps my E2 levels at about 170% of pre-cycle on 50mg of fuckin' prop per day, as my bloodwork revealed.
CanadianBro
New member
LAWNSAVER said:
Very good questions LAWNSAVER
Aromasin is an irreversable aromatase inhibitor however people make the mistake and believe that once Aromasin is taken, the body cannot convert Androgen's to Estrogen permanently.
An important point is that Aromasin binds permanently with the aromatase enzyme, making it useless UNTIL the body actually replaces it through the normal metabolic attrition of enzymes.
With a single dose of exemestane 25 mg, the maximal suppression of circulating estrogens occurs 2 to 3 days after dosing and persists for 4 to 5 days.
Therefore, you can ideally take Aromasin every 2-3 days. There is really no point of taking it daily.
Also, you would not have to keep taking it or lowering the doage. Simply follow the usual treatment (1 pills/25mg EVERY 2 DAYS) throughout post-cycle therapy and 4-5 days after discontinuing, the Aromatase Enzyme binding site will no longer be occupied and the body will convert Androgen's to Estrogen the same way they did before.
lawnsaver
New member
See look at that...We all come together on Christmas and solve a problem.
Serge, there is some flaws in your answer. I can not refute that those steroids do not convert to estrogen. Although there are other growth factors, estrogen is needed too. Its not the only factor, but it plays a role.
Can someone shed some light on this aspect of growth?
Serge, there is some flaws in your answer. I can not refute that those steroids do not convert to estrogen. Although there are other growth factors, estrogen is needed too. Its not the only factor, but it plays a role.
Can someone shed some light on this aspect of growth?
CanadianBro
New member
LAWNSAVER said:
Hey, why not?
Estrogen has both positive and negative effects that you should be aware of. On the positive it supports "good" high density cholesterol, increases muscle glucose utilization for tissue growth and repair, and even increases androgen receptor concentrations in various tissues.
It is now understood that estrogen serves many useful purposes in men, particularly if we are looking for rapid muscle mass gain. If bulking is the goal it is therefore usually advised to hold off on estrogen maintenance compounds until there is a clear need for them.
This brings me to the negative side of estrogen, namely that it can work to hide muscle definition by increasing water retention and fat buildup. It can also promote gynecomastia (gyno) in men if levels get too high.
Since androgens and estrogens playing opposing roles on the disposition of body fat and the growth of mammary tissues, maximizing the ratio between these two hormones is often an important objective, especially when dieting and cutting are key goals or gyno is a worry because strongly aromatized hormones such as testosterone are being used.
How's that?
CanadianBro
New member
Basically, we all jump on the Anti-E bandwagon because we want to prevent water bloat and gyno however we fail to realize that Estrogen is a key component in getting HUGE.
What's more important?
a) An extra 5-10 pounds or
b) A hard look with a much less chance of gyno.
You can't have both if you use Anti Aromatase agents.
Merry X-Mas!
What's more important?
a) An extra 5-10 pounds or
b) A hard look with a much less chance of gyno.
You can't have both if you use Anti Aromatase agents.
Merry X-Mas!
CanadianBro
New member
sk* said:
Yes and no.
First of all, Nolva is one of the alternatives that prevent the Gyno but will do little for the water weight.
Second, those 5-10lbs would not only be water. In actuality, it would really be a gain of 10-15 pounts from which 5-10lms would be water while the rest lean mass.
I should have rephrased the 5-10 pounts as "LEAN MUSCLE"
This is just a broad estimate though. By using Anti-Armatase agents, you could very well lose OVER 10lbs of Lean Mass or as little as 1-2lbs. It of course depends on your cycle.
lawnsaver
New member
Here is a great thread that I found in the archives. It is long, but it sheds a lot of light on the value of estrogen. Believe me, I use Anti-A, but I use them in complete moderation so that I still get some of the benifits of estrogen, but not the bad aspects of it. Its a delicate balance.
http://boards.elitefitness.com/foru...d=110688&highlight=estrogen+and+muscle+growth
http://boards.elitefitness.com/foru...d=110688&highlight=estrogen+and+muscle+growth
CanadianBro
New member
sk* said:
The reason is because estrogen does not simply add water weight and cause gyno. It has properties that cause you to gain more muscle that you would without it.
"it supports 'good' high density cholesterol, increases muscle glucose utilization for tissue growth and repair, and even increases androgen receptor concentrations in various tissues."
CanadianBro
New member
mike1107 said:
No. With Aromasin, you do not have the luxury of both benefits. Keep in mind that at it's peak, Exemestane (Aromasin) will suppress over 95% of the estrogen being aromatized.
Letrozole would be a better choice if you would like to find that "happy medium".
For me personally, I rather have total suppression of Estrogen to prevent the water bloat and gyno. The "benefits" of Estrogen are not as important to me as they used to be.
CanadianBro
New member
LAWNSAVER said:
Now you are looking at manipulating estrogen using a TIMED schedule.
I personally feel it would be very tough to predict exactly when the normal attrition of enzymes occurs and therefore the results could not be guaranteed.
I am also concerned of 2 possible negative scenario's that could arise from this type of treatment:
1. You take your next Exemestane dosage too soon and estrogen is immediately suppressed without providing any benefits
2. You wait too long and the estrogen begins to wreak havoc on the body and signs of gyno/water weight occurs.
It is a very interesting thought though, and I don't believe anyone has ever attempted to manipulate estrogen converstion with Exemestane using the time factor.
I may just try it out on my next cycle. Great post LAWNSAVER!
lawnsaver
New member
Yes, you would have to take into account your past cycles and remember how your doses effected your estrogen levels. Individual estrogen sesitivity is key here. You must know your own body.
Mike, I shouldnt have recomended a dose for you. The dose I recomended would be one that I feel comfortable with. You have to look at how sesitive you are to estrogen and relate that to your dose.
Mike, I shouldnt have recomended a dose for you. The dose I recomended would be one that I feel comfortable with. You have to look at how sesitive you are to estrogen and relate that to your dose.
)...if I plan to take it at .25 e3d, should it avoid it ??CanadianBro
New member
mike1107 said:
I don't believe anyone will have a definitive answer to this question however, as I stated earlier, I will try this in an upcoming cycle and post results from my blood tests as the Estrogen levels.
This should be interesting.
CanadianBro
New member
mike1107 said:
Did you say for 6 months?
CanadianBro
New member
mike1107 said:
yep
The reason I ask is because Exemestane should no be take longer than 12 weeks. Although there have been studies that show the drug is well tolerated past the 12 week mark however, I personally have never seen an athlete consume it that long.
This is also unchartered territory. I hope you don't mind being a guinea pig.........just kidding.
mike1107
New member
CanadianBro said:
The reason I ask is because Exemestane should no be take longer than 12 weeks. Although there have been studies that show the drug is well tolerated past the 12 week mark however, I personally have never seen an athlete consume it that long.
This is also unchartered territory. I hope you don't mind being a guinea pig.........just kidding.
I'll be the guinea pig...so is my destiny
serge
New member
LAWNSAVER said:
old justification that all fat/bloated fucks used to justify how shitty they looked 95% of the year, now if you are looking to go pro then the amount of aromatisable gear you will have to take will not be countered by any amount or combinations of anti-e's....hence bloating will in inevitable, if your goal however is just to look aestheticly pleasing/attractive then no amount of water retention should be tollerated, moreover androgens work much better in estadiol starved environment
lawnsaver
New member
serge said:
I dont agree! Sorry, I have read to much on the subject that counters what you are saying.
I have done enough cycles to know that I grew better without the use of any anti-E's or A's
My gains were better looking with the use of anti's during, but at the ends of my cycles without, the water came off anyway.
CanadianBro
New member
serge said:
This statement had been proven false both scientifically and through 'real-world' results. Many of the top bodybuilders in the world take huge amounts of Test right up until their competition. With the advance of science, you can in fact block all excess estrogen using the current Anti-Aromatase/Estrogen drugs and therefore avoid water bloat entirely.
lawnsaver
New member
Canuck4 said:
"After a single dose of exemestane 25 mg, the maximal suppression of circulating estrogens(98%), occurred 2 to 3 days after dosing and persisted for 4 to 5 days."
I think with a statement like that, it sounds like 72-84 hours?? I could be wrong, but if its effects are good through 4-5 days, then the drug has a fairly longer halflife than A-dex, which is 50hrs.
CanadianBro
New member
LAWNSAVER said:
Correct, I should have stated that nearly all the Estrogen converted via the Aromatse enzyme.
Thanks for the head's up LAWNSAVER
C
cbeaks
Guest
I have been using aromasin for almost a year now. I am prone to gyno. I notice slight gyno arising even while taking 25mg of aromasin ed. I was only using 700mg of test/week too. I know without a doubt my stuff is real. - cbeaks
CanadianBro
New member
Were you taking anything else with the Test.
CanadianBro
New member
LAWNSAVER said:
As far as Aromasin is concerned, I have NEVER seen an athlete have any signs of gyno due to estrogen conversion through the aromatase enzyme when using Aromasin.
When this occurs, it is usually due to another substance within the cycle. Possibly Deca or Fina.
C
cbeaks
Guest
CanadianBro said:
Yeah, actually my last cycle was 500mg of test/week and 150mg of tren eod. I guess it could have been the fina. - cbeaks
CanadianBro
New member
LAWNSAVER said:
Excellent question LAWNSAVER.
Here's the reason Exemestane is effective for 4-5 days.
After oral administration, peak levels of Exemestane are reached in the blood at approximately 1.5 hours, and the drug is cleared from the body with a half-life of approximately 3 hours.
However, due to its nature as an irreversible inhibitor, its estrogen-suppressing activity outlives it actual active lifespan in the bloodstream.
Let me say this again...
" due to its nature as an irreversible inhibitor, its estrogen-suppressing activity outlives it actual active lifespan in the bloodstream."
You see, even though the Exemestane is not present in the bloodstream (halflife) it binds to the Aromatase Enzyme UNTIL the body replaces it through the attrition of enzymes. So therefore, it will continue to work as an Aromatase inhibitor UNTIL the enzymes are replaced.
It's half life really has nothing to do with how long it inhibits estrogen due to Exemestane's irreversible nature.
This is another reason I strongly prefer Aromasin over Arimidex.
CanadianBro
New member
Thank you Canuck4.
I feel very strongly about the benefits of Aromasin. Especially in high dose cycles. It troubles me to see young, inexperienced athletes develop gyno due to lack of knowledge or misinformation.
I feel very strongly about the benefits of Aromasin. Especially in high dose cycles. It troubles me to see young, inexperienced athletes develop gyno due to lack of knowledge or misinformation.
I generally concur with the conclusions drawn here, it seems tht aromasin would be the anit-e of choice if one decides to go the anit-aromatase route. I think it should be claified that in healthy men taking exogenous test, it is unlikely that there will be 98% reduction of circulating estrogen since the numbers commonly reported are for post-menopausal women. You should also be aware that not all studies show a reduction of 98%, eg:
"A dose-dependent decrease in serum estrogen level was observed between doses of 0.5 mg and 25 mg. The decrease was maximal at 25 mg, at which serum estrogen concentrations decreased to 14-27% of those observed at day 0. This decrease was maintained for one week, returning to baseline levels 2 weeks after the completion of drug administration. " This demonstrates a significant variability in post menopausal women, it should not be a real stretch of credibility to understand that the end results will depend on the toatal amount of test, the dosing of aromasin, and the total amount of aromatase present.
jb
"A dose-dependent decrease in serum estrogen level was observed between doses of 0.5 mg and 25 mg. The decrease was maximal at 25 mg, at which serum estrogen concentrations decreased to 14-27% of those observed at day 0. This decrease was maintained for one week, returning to baseline levels 2 weeks after the completion of drug administration. " This demonstrates a significant variability in post menopausal women, it should not be a real stretch of credibility to understand that the end results will depend on the toatal amount of test, the dosing of aromasin, and the total amount of aromatase present.
jb
This seems to be a very interesting thread and hasn't been looked at in years. What about the combination of aromasin/letrozole/nolvadex. I have done that combination in the past and for all intents and purposes got rid of 90% of my unwanted sides, the g word, within 2 weeks. Felt/saw noticeable results within a day.
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