Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below I keep reading threads where people are suggesting and promoting the use of arimidex during PCT....last I remember arimidex was most useful during cycle and many people believed it wasnt nearly as effective as drugs like clomid and nolva for post cycle therapy....has something changed? are people finding it just effective in PCT as it is on cycle? I'd like to know because I have an unopened bottle sitting around and maybe ill use it instead of nolva for my next PCT
arimidex for PCT???
- Thread starter themanc84
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enacer420nj
Well-known member
Arimidex or aromasin is great for controlling estrogen during PCT especially when HCG is in onvolved
Keep in mind, most so called experts are just parrots. Nolva and Clomid came first and that became the standard plan. I spoke out about Clomid back in 2000. I spoke to everyone I knew about my theory -- Dan Duchaine, Jerry Brainium, Dr. Eric Serrano, as well as many bodybuilding pros. I was surprised to hear that my beliefs weren't so radical. But to the internet gurus, I was just a crazy uninformed nutjob.
You see, Clomid and Nolva are estrogens which will compete for estrogen receptors when e gets abnormally high. But why use an estrogen when you can stop it in the first place? That's why I recommened Proviron, because it blocked it at the source. But Arimidex and aromasin is far more effective.
When a cycle ends, estrogen goes up. Why not use a good aromatase blocker? Soem will argue that Clomid is known to restore HPTA
BUT THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE OF THAT !
There are a few studies, ALL of which are questionable. keep in mind, ANYTHING will restore the HPTA to a degree over time.
Add to the fact that Clomid causes depression, lethargy, blurry vision and Nolva kills libido, why in the fucking world would anyone take it? The answer is, in some cases, the estrogen helps -- so those who've used it will swear by it. But it's also why so many people new to the game are thinking WHAT THE FUCK?! THIS STUFF MAKES ME FEEL LIKE SHIT!!!
The best plan is to use some HCG, or HMG along with some dex or aromasin. The use UNLEASHED, POST CYCLE, and Alpha Sustain -- all natty supps to support recovery. That works better, faster and safer than drugs which were never intended to be used by males in the first place. .
You see, Clomid and Nolva are estrogens which will compete for estrogen receptors when e gets abnormally high. But why use an estrogen when you can stop it in the first place? That's why I recommened Proviron, because it blocked it at the source. But Arimidex and aromasin is far more effective.
When a cycle ends, estrogen goes up. Why not use a good aromatase blocker? Soem will argue that Clomid is known to restore HPTA
BUT THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE OF THAT !
There are a few studies, ALL of which are questionable. keep in mind, ANYTHING will restore the HPTA to a degree over time.
Add to the fact that Clomid causes depression, lethargy, blurry vision and Nolva kills libido, why in the fucking world would anyone take it? The answer is, in some cases, the estrogen helps -- so those who've used it will swear by it. But it's also why so many people new to the game are thinking WHAT THE FUCK?! THIS STUFF MAKES ME FEEL LIKE SHIT!!!
The best plan is to use some HCG, or HMG along with some dex or aromasin. The use UNLEASHED, POST CYCLE, and Alpha Sustain -- all natty supps to support recovery. That works better, faster and safer than drugs which were never intended to be used by males in the first place. .
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Here is the protocol I am following. This is by an Endocrinologist and I'm sure many of you have seen this before.
I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.
Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).
If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.
The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.
I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.
I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).
All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
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I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.
Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).
If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.
The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.
I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.
I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).
All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
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Sometimes people take studies out of context and then make assumptions based on that study where it really doesn't apply. For instance, it is true that an A.I. like arimidex will increase LH production in males. But that's based on studies where an already healthy HPTA is involved. Arimidex reduces estrogen; which is probably the strongest actor in the negative feedback loop. When the estrogen receptors at the hypothalamus see less estrogen, it is perceived as a reduction in testosterone and the hypothalamus sends a signal to the pituitary to increase LH production.
In PCT (at least early in PCT) there is virtually no endogenous testosterone production. In this case an A.I. does not reduce estrogen because an A.I. only prevents tesosterone from aromatizing to estrogen. But if there's no testosterone, there's nothing to aromatize. So it seems top me that an A.I. is pointless in PCT.
Now, a S.E.R.M. like clomid competes with estrogen for receptor sites and seems especially good at blocking receptors at the hypothalamus. Clomid doesn't care where the estrogen came from; it blocks it regardless. This makes it a much better choice for PCT than an A.I.
I will make the qualification that an A.I. is very benefical if you're using HCG (as enancer said). Before I was on permanent HRT, I had the best PCT results with the following protocol (coming off long ester cycles):
Week after last injection:
day 1-20: HCG 500IU/day
day 1-20: letrozole 1mg EOD
day 20-48: Clomid 50mg/day
Basically I used HCG to restore my testes and maintain testosterone levels as the long esters clear my bloodstream. Letro was used at the same time to control estrogen from the HCG's increased aromatase activity and to hopefully begin recovery at the hypothalamus. Finally I took clomid for 4 weeks (for the reasons stated above) to complete the recovery.
In PCT (at least early in PCT) there is virtually no endogenous testosterone production. In this case an A.I. does not reduce estrogen because an A.I. only prevents tesosterone from aromatizing to estrogen. But if there's no testosterone, there's nothing to aromatize. So it seems top me that an A.I. is pointless in PCT.
Now, a S.E.R.M. like clomid competes with estrogen for receptor sites and seems especially good at blocking receptors at the hypothalamus. Clomid doesn't care where the estrogen came from; it blocks it regardless. This makes it a much better choice for PCT than an A.I.
I will make the qualification that an A.I. is very benefical if you're using HCG (as enancer said). Before I was on permanent HRT, I had the best PCT results with the following protocol (coming off long ester cycles):
Week after last injection:
day 1-20: HCG 500IU/day
day 1-20: letrozole 1mg EOD
day 20-48: Clomid 50mg/day
Basically I used HCG to restore my testes and maintain testosterone levels as the long esters clear my bloodstream. Letro was used at the same time to control estrogen from the HCG's increased aromatase activity and to hopefully begin recovery at the hypothalamus. Finally I took clomid for 4 weeks (for the reasons stated above) to complete the recovery.
Good post. So basically in my opinion based on what I posted above is to run hcg throughout the cycle in moderate doses and use an AI to control the estrogen. If you didn't run either during cycle than I would suggest get some hcg and run Aromasin. Aromasin is a better choice during pct because it's better on your lipid profile and stacks better with Nolvadex whereas Arimidex doesn't. I would like to hear others opinions as well. Where's the dude from Primordial Performance? Isn't he supposed to be the pct dude lol?
You don't like anastrozol in pct b/c it's an ai...but then recomend letrozole which is...an ai pls explain the logic thanks
Who said anything about lowering it too low? Use the appropriate dosage.
beyond that -- there is a LOT of misinformation in this thread. If that endo is quoted correctly he needs to go back to school. Also, nydj66, you're on the right track but your conclusion is erroneous. First of all, there can be aromatization in the pc stage. And if estro isn't that high, Clomid can actually ADD MORE estrogen.
As for Nolvadex, it's such a limited , terrible drug it's almost pointless discussing it. It's the leeches of PCT. Unless you have gyno, nolva serves no purpose other than to delay recuperation.
Nelson, what would you say is wrong about the quote I posted. I'm curious because this is the protocol I'm using. I agree that if you're using hcg during pct then an ai should most definately be used. But what if hcg is used during cycle and not pct? Would you continue the hcg over into pct as well or stop and continue using the ai and nolva. Plus your products of course and PRS.
Also, what are your thoughts on this pct?
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/official-pct-2009-a-642825.html
He is recommending because of the addition of hcg to pct. Hcg causes aromitization. I'm assuming he just prefers letrozole over dex as an AI.
I disagree with the indiscriminate use of HCG. I believe it should be used when atrophy is detected. ( You don't want to have to fight too much to get the balls back in play.) But why use it if you don't need it? And why use it if you're going to shut yourself down again? It serves no purpose other than to make it less effective in the long run. Usually, 3 days of 500 iu's after a cycle is all you need. HCG cures nothing. It just gives a little head start to recovering on your own.
I see that makes sense as well. There's so many different opinions it's impossible for anyone too know for sure what the exact thing to would be. So what would you recommend to those who do run hcg throughout the cycle? Continue into pct with hcg or what? And you consider Nolva worthless in pct unless gyno is present correct? And why the hell isn't this thread in the pct forum lol? BTW Nelson, your big blast is sitting at my doorstep as we speak!
Yes, my post is a little confusing. It's all in how you define PCT.
Once upon a time it was recommended to use HCG at the end of a cycle, then start PCT after that.
I liked to use HCG just after the cycle while the esters were clearing. With HCG it is advisable to use an A.I. (I used letro).
After I discontinued the HCG and letro, I started the classic PCT of just clomid (no A.I.)
The endo excerp above was taken from Dr. John Swale's web site (I remember it but I can no longer find it on the web).
In a sense clomid does add estrogen because it does activate some estrogen receptors (that's why it a selective estrogen receptor modulator). That's also why it makes you feel weepy and emotional. However, it does not activate estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus why is why it was so widely used for PCT. Similarly, nolvadex does not activate estrogen receptors in breast tissue which is why it's still used to combat breast cancer.
cuts82
New member
half a tab eod (12.5mg) for 6 weeks i ran it
centeroiler
New member
Nelson, I seem to recall a post where your cycles are typically no longer than 7-8 weeks. But, many people go on cycles much longer than this. I disagree with waiting until your testes atrophy, or until after a cycle to use hCG. Maybe on a short cycle this is okay, but letting your balls sit idle for any longer is asking for trouble IMO. There are all kinds of chemical and biological processes that are supposed to happen on a daily basis that aren't being performed during a suppressive cycle. The lack of proper functioning of these processes doesn't necessarily manifest itself in shrunken testicles. Damage could be happening long before it shows up with your balls being atrophied. It just makes sense to keep your system functioning as normally as is possible with the least disruption possible. The use of hCG puts your balls to work keeping your endogenous Testosterone flowing, and FSH keeps your sperm production happening just like nature intended. Low-dose On Cycle Therapy is the best way to protect your male sexual health and fertility. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. hCG isn't a cure, its preventive medicine.
Your thinking is off base on a lot of levels.
First of all, atrophy is the symptom and HCG corrects it. If the symptom isn't there, the HCG has nothing to do. It doesn't prevent anything. That would be like taking cough medicine when you don't have a cough in order to prevent getting one. It is NOT a preventative procedure.
centeroiler
New member
Atrophy is a process. It is a result. In fact, it is a direct result of the stoppage of all of the processes that are a daily natural occurance. Actually, your analogy is off base in that we aren't just waiting for that "cough", wondering IF it is going to come. We know the "cough" IS coming and there is something we can do about it. How is that not preventative?
centeroiler
New member
hCG doesn't prevent what? I we talking about the same thing here?
Maybe its just a difference in semantics, but I'm saying that the use of hCG (or real LH) and FSH can help prevent, and treat, steroid induced hypogonadism. Or, are you just saying that whether or not you use hCG we are doomed and our balls will shrink anyway?
hCG doesn't prevent what? I we talking about the same thing here?
Or, are you just saying that whether or not you use hCG we are doomed and our balls will shrink anyway?
I think we are talking past each other. HCG treats hypogonadism but it's not like you're hypogonadal as soon as you start taking steroids. And if you use it too much it becomes ineffective so when you REALLy need it (after the cycle) it may not work as well.
I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.
These are all theories. You have to pick the one that makes the most sense to you. But don't pick the one that you just WANT to be the right one.
Bottom line is Nelson was a successful professional body builder so when it comes to practical advise he has all the credibility.
Then again, there's nothing wrong with a little friendly debate in the name of science.
Well, never pro, but thanks. I have been bodybuilding since the 60's and involved with gear for over 15 years and have seen, heard, and done more than I care to remember sometimes.
And yeah, nothing wrong with a difference of opinion as long as it's presented with a perspective.
centeroiler
New member
Nelson does have credibility here. I for one value his threads/posts. I think in this instance, we got off the same page a bit, and as he said "talked past each other".
What got lost in all of this was my original point. Nelson is an advocate of shorter cycles of say 7-8 weeks duration. Most bros stay on very suppressive cycles for much longer than this and leave themselves shut down for far too long before starting hCG. I feel that OCT with low-dose hCG and FSH can be used to simulate your own bodily functions and thus keep your body from "forgetting" how to make its own testosterone/sperm. What we both do agree on is that too much hCG can desensitize your testes to LH and make matters worse by further inducing hypogonadism, perhaps permanently. There is also the threat of suppressing, perhaps permanently, your body's own gonadotropin production. So, we have to walk a fine line here. I have been unable to find any/many formal studies on the concept of OCT, just a lot of theories, so this is something that we are on our own to experiment with. Seems no one has the balls (no pun intended) to use taxpayer's money to fund studies that may help us juicers. The standard dosing for male infertility puts administration at around 75iu twice a week and I would think thats a good place to start but I really can't say for sure.
This all begs the question of how Nelson wound up on TRT in the first place. Was it that he used hCG too much, too little or not at all? This is in no way meant to be an offense to Nelson. I think the answer to this may give us some valuable insight into the subject of steroid induced hypogonadism.
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This all begs the question of how Nelson wound up on TRT in the first place. Was it that he used hCG too much, too little or not at all? This is in no way meant to be an offense to Nelson. I think the answer to this may give us some valuable insight into the subject of steroid induced hypogonadism. [/QUOTE]
Glad you asked -- and I'd be happy to answer.
I went on HRT when I was 47 years old! This is the thing -- I see guys going on when they're 30 and I'm like "what the fuck?!"
47 is a good age no matter what. Most guys who never touch gear need it by then so I don't think gear use had anything to do with it. Then again, I did very low dose cycles.
I didn't use HCG for the first few cycles. Once I tried it, I saw that it would help me recover faster but I presumed (correctly) the recommended dosages were for women trying to get pregnant and that had nothing to do with me. I also realized that after a couple of hits, the balls came back, so why obliterate them? We didn't know back then about the ledig sensitivity but common sense tells you that the body develops a tolerance to any drug after a while.
I still use HCG (and HMG) every few months while on HRT because I believe it's best for the body to, at least attempt to, manufacture some T on its own. With only 100 mgs a week my T is usually around 800. And my FreeT is that of a 25 year old, but I sttribute that to the daily dosing of UNLEASHED.
Bottom line: Start with the least amount and go from there. It's always the safest and smartest bet. Unfortunately I see the opposite rule of thumb far too often.
Glad you asked -- and I'd be happy to answer.
I went on HRT when I was 47 years old! This is the thing -- I see guys going on when they're 30 and I'm like "what the fuck?!"
47 is a good age no matter what. Most guys who never touch gear need it by then so I don't think gear use had anything to do with it. Then again, I did very low dose cycles.
I didn't use HCG for the first few cycles. Once I tried it, I saw that it would help me recover faster but I presumed (correctly) the recommended dosages were for women trying to get pregnant and that had nothing to do with me. I also realized that after a couple of hits, the balls came back, so why obliterate them? We didn't know back then about the ledig sensitivity but common sense tells you that the body develops a tolerance to any drug after a while.
I still use HCG (and HMG) every few months while on HRT because I believe it's best for the body to, at least attempt to, manufacture some T on its own. With only 100 mgs a week my T is usually around 800. And my FreeT is that of a 25 year old, but I sttribute that to the daily dosing of UNLEASHED.
Bottom line: Start with the least amount and go from there. It's always the safest and smartest bet. Unfortunately I see the opposite rule of thumb far too often.
I agree with Nelson on recommending short cycles. It's much easier to recovery after 8 weeks of juicing compared to 12.
I also agree with centeroiler in that with longer cycles HCG should be used while on to maintain testicular function. I know from experience that 3 days of 500IU HCG would not recovery my testes after a 10 week cycle (maybe a 6 week but not a 10 week).
I found a study several years ago that looked at individuals that had been on TRT for 2 years or more, then went off because they wanted to father children. The study found that even after the HPTA was shut down for that long, the Hypothalamus and Pituitary were recovered after 3 weeks (LH and FSH levels were normal). But, it took an aditionanal 4 weeks after that for the testes to recover.
That tells me that the testes are the bottleneck in the recovery process. Logic tells me that if you never let the testes go dormant, they should recover testosterone production immediately after LH levels have normalized. Theoretically, this could mean full recovery in 3-4 weeks. Based on that I think 250IU HCG twice weekly is a cheap and safe insurance policy while on cycle.
Incidentally, I also like Dr. Swales advice of 250IU HCG twice weekly while on TRT. Although I used 500IU weekly to reduce the number of injections. I also add a small amount of letro to control the estrogen produced from the HCG.
If I skip the HCG, I notice testicular atrophy start in about 3 weeks.
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centeroiler
New member
Amazing infoEspecially well timed in my case a i'm just on the verge of starting a 16 weeker...definitely going to shoot the hcg @ 250ius every mon & fri from the 3rd week onwards...This thread has been a blessing.
Me too. I will report my findings as I use both hCG and FSH throughout and hope you do too. I'm hoping I come through relatively unscathed.
