Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
Anti-Israel Thread
- Thread starter MrDbol
- Start date
C
Code
Guest
All I know is the moron who decided to give the holocaust victims their own nation IN THE MIDDLE OF A LAND THAT HATES JEWS is a moron.
The UN should be disbanded just for that!!
<Sarcasm>
What a brain-trust!!
</Sarcasm>
The UN should be disbanded just for that!!
<Sarcasm>
What a brain-trust!!
</Sarcasm>
The Jews hate the United Nations now, even though they gave them their own country, because they felt bad for the poor help-less Jews at the end of WWII. And now the Jews want to dismantle the United Nations b/c they don't agree with their policies.
I can't wait to see what happens. Who's gonna get whacked next? Do you think the Jews will be able to dismantle the UN? Do you think the Jews will bring down George Bush (b/c he is anti-semitic)? Time will tell. Until then, sit back and enjoy the suicide bombings in Israel.
Everytime a bunch of kikes get whacked over there, I am like.. ahh yeah, a dozen less kikes in the world.
I can see the smile on my man Bush's face, everytime a Palestinian goes to pieces taking out a dozen Jews.
I can't wait to see what happens. Who's gonna get whacked next? Do you think the Jews will be able to dismantle the UN? Do you think the Jews will bring down George Bush (b/c he is anti-semitic)? Time will tell. Until then, sit back and enjoy the suicide bombings in Israel.
Everytime a bunch of kikes get whacked over there, I am like.. ahh yeah, a dozen less kikes in the world.
I can see the smile on my man Bush's face, everytime a Palestinian goes to pieces taking out a dozen Jews.
Caesar_wv
New member
What a dumbass...
First, Bush isn't an Anti-Semitic...if you don't recall we just sold Israel a shitload of weapons and planes to dismantle Arafat's camel riding posse. Second of all...there is nothing funny about innocent victims getting massacred/dismantled...all in the name of some false god that is worshipped by a bunch of radical, rampaging rag headed assholes.
First, Bush isn't an Anti-Semitic...if you don't recall we just sold Israel a shitload of weapons and planes to dismantle Arafat's camel riding posse. Second of all...there is nothing funny about innocent victims getting massacred/dismantled...all in the name of some false god that is worshipped by a bunch of radical, rampaging rag headed assholes.
D
DetectiveJonKimball
Guest
circusgirl
New member
Code said:
Fast Twitch Fiber
New member
I think they are all crazy over there in the "holy land".
I'd rather our government spend that 3 billion buying medicine for my grandparents and other old people.
I'd rather our government spend that 3 billion buying medicine for my grandparents and other old people.
Steroid_Virgin
New member
The way I see it, the Jews are poking the the palestinians with a stick saying ha is that all you got? You aint never going to get any of OUR land back...
Im not siding with arafat, but the jews really aren't doing shit to make things better... and sharron is just an ass...
Im not siding with arafat, but the jews really aren't doing shit to make things better... and sharron is just an ass...
supernav said:
We were bombing Japan in 1962? I guess you mean during World War 2. Yeah, except for the 5 year World war, the situations are exactly similar. Except for Pearl harbor, it is exactly the same.
A nation surrounded by enemies is always on its toes. Believe me the Israeli military is sharper than ours....daily "live fires" make it a razor sharop force.
we give exactly the same amount to Egypt.
You are an especially uninformed individual.
Steroid_Virgin
New member
still riding the fence on this one eh Matt?
Steroid_Virgin said:
Fuck no. I could write all day, but I will just use a few simple facts:
Arab armies have invaded Israel repeatedly, and been defeated every time. Yet now they want "peace"?
The Arab and Muslim countries are last in the world for human rights. Conversely, Israel is the only middle eastern state that allows Arabs to vote.
September 11th.
Daniel Pearl.
what else do you have to know to understand who the savages are?
Ffactor
New member
To be honest with you both jews and palestinians are camel humpers to me. There is no difference between the two. Also, George Bush is very anti-semitic. You are fooling yourself if you don't think so. I've been to republican fund raisers, I know the type of rhetoric that goes on there.
C
Code
Guest
Interesting how most of the replies here aren't based on anything other than hatred.
Try actually having reasonsand facts for your opinions, you'll notice you garner a lot more respect.
Try actually having reasonsand facts for your opinions, you'll notice you garner a lot more respect.
D
dballer
Guest
Ffactor said:
BULLSHIT!!!
do you know what a semite is?? I will give you a hint... Arabs are semites!!
Jews must be anti-semitic.
circusgirl
New member
Oh, btw folks, don't forget all the Arab Jews! (Yup, Jewish immigrants from Yemen, Tuinisia, Morocco...). And 40% of the Palestinians are Christian - my mother in law is one of these.
C
Code
Guest
circusgirl said:
Good point.
No matter where you put the jewish people they will be hated. Why, I don't know.
I see no similarity in the war practices of WWII and the current suicide bombings of Israel. Yes, we bombed cities and such, but almost all of the targets of the US were of military value, now hitler on the other hand, bombed the civilians on purpose. I am not saying we are completely innocent, but the PLO and its people are stupid for killing themselves.
If we were to move the Jewish people then it would be Syria or some other country out there that would be mixing it up with the PLO.
I see no similarity in the war practices of WWII and the current suicide bombings of Israel. Yes, we bombed cities and such, but almost all of the targets of the US were of military value, now hitler on the other hand, bombed the civilians on purpose. I am not saying we are completely innocent, but the PLO and its people are stupid for killing themselves.
If we were to move the Jewish people then it would be Syria or some other country out there that would be mixing it up with the PLO.
C
Code
Guest
chesty said:
We should give them North Dakota or maybe Midway.
D
dballer
Guest
curling said:
read the book fo Revelations. You are very off on this comment.
C
Code
Guest
dballer said:
Are you suggesting the bible *doesn't* say the jews are God's chosen people???
dballer said:
As Tim the tool man taylor would say, "I don't think so dballer". The book of Relevation only reinforces what I said. Take Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their forheads.
The "Lamb" of course is the Mesiah and " Mount Zion" is another name for Jeruslem.
Then 7:21
"I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband."
It also talks about the anti christ going into the newly built temple(by the Jews) and desecrating it by killing a hog in it.
There is no doubt the devil hates Israel and the Jews. Read it you will see dballer.
D
dballer
Guest
God would not support those who deny his son.
in the Talmud there are many passages in Baba Meza (sp) that talk about killing Christians. I can produce these tommorow.. if you would like to see them. I am guessing with all of the Israel talk you are Jewish.. so I will give you the passages.. you can look them up.
in the Talmud there are many passages in Baba Meza (sp) that talk about killing Christians. I can produce these tommorow.. if you would like to see them. I am guessing with all of the Israel talk you are Jewish.. so I will give you the passages.. you can look them up.
Prometheus
New member
curling said:
so if you are not Jewish, what does that make you? If you believe in the God of the Bible, and are not chosen by him, then are you one of Satan's people?
or is there some middle ground, for pseudo-chosen people - people who are not with Satan yet not "chosen"??
If so, can one eventually get into the "chosen" club - maybe through devotion and good attendance?
dballer said:
Naw, I am not Jewish. And what you brought up is very interesting about the Jews denying God's son. I too have wondered about that. But you have to remember the first Christians were Jews even Chirst was a Jew. Also the Bible mentiions that God blinded the Jews from the truth about Christ. Why I can only guess because I guess He was dissappointed they killed His son. But it was God's will that it all happened. Anyway what is Talmud and the Baba Meza?
Promethus,
It makes me a Christian. Which is so much better than being a Jew. They still have to live by the Levitical law which is very hard to do.
So their is something better than the middle ground it is becoming born again child of God.
Prometheus
New member
curling said:
Ok. but you said before - that Satan hates God, the Jews are God's chosen people, therefore Satan hates the Jews, therefore people of Satan hate the Jews.
So where does a non-chosen person stand in this - does being a lesser person (i.e., not "chosen") necessarily put one in Satan's group? Or can the lesser person go to the other side, even though God has deemed him unworthy of being "chosen"?
Prometheus said:
Sadly it does put you in Satan's hands even if a person doesn't want to be. Because the Bible says you are either in Christ's hands or you are of the world which puts you in Satan's hands. btw The post you put on the UN are so true. They are definetely setting the stage for the end times. They are the catalyst for the Anti Christ. You should read the Left Behind series if you haven't. It shows how the U.N. is pure evil.
parasiticide
New member
Code said:
I thought all the Holocaust victims were dead.
parasiticide
New member
kingjohn said:
You see dead people?
C
Code
Guest
parasiticide said:
Many people who were forced to live in concentration camps are still alive today.
D
dballer
Guest
curling said:
I will e-mail you some of the stuff tonight. The Jews were claimed as Gods chosen people. That was before the Romans.. remember.. what it said on the cross??? King of The Jews...
Jesus was the King of the Jews... that is when The Jews of old became the Christians of new. You must not have read the whole Bible or payed attention to that part. Skip to the end and begin reading Revelations.
Steroid_Virgin
New member
wow.. this turned into a good thread.. keep it going
dballer said:
TYhe first Christians were Jews. Prestige among early Christians was based on how much "jew" you could trace back in your lineage.
When St Ppaul went on his way converting Greeks (or trying to) he initially had little success. Greeks at the time were not big believers in life after death so the resurrection was a tough sell.
Paul startedt to bend the truth about Jews in order to faciltiate more converts.
Several hundred years later, Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman Empire by COnstantine in a very political move. This widened the rift between Christians and Jews.
COnstantine, along with his mother, arbitrarily picked out a lot of what are today's "holy" sites in christianity. She just assigned sites to historical events randomly.
Jews were resistant to the roman empire. Not all were kicked out of Israel, and those that were there did not care for occupation. rome began to vilify Jews (to galvanize Christian support) and pitted Chrisitan against Jew in a manner that stuill persists today.
Throughotu hsitory, Christians have used the "you killed Jesus" line: the Crusades (which involed considerable jew-butchery) the Inquistion, and the Holocaust (the SS was overwhlmingly roman Catholic)
A lot of that "denied his son" stuff is .
1. remnants of roman propaganda.
2. Rome's and St Paul's bastardization of christianity
3. A legacy of 1. and 2. above
We thank you for continuing to spread it. Jews were not energetic about their denial, just not interested. Christain leaders made it seem oterhwise, askin to what Musliml eaders do now. Same shit, different day.
I am not Jewish.
Jesus was labeled "King of the Jews" on the cross b/c the Jews were mocking him, it was not out of respect.
As far as why the world hates the Jews and wants them dead, the reason is very clear.
Despite all of the evil deeds they have done since the beginning of time, I will not get into that, one need not look further then one of their holy books, the Talmud.
The Talmud teaches Jews to hate non-Jews and treat them like beasts, unhuman creatures. It teaches that its ok to steal, kill, rape, and abuse non-Jews.
Here are some quotes from the Talmud concerning non-Jews:
Cheat Non-Jews
Sanhedrin 57a. A Jew need not to pay a cuthean (gentile) the wages owed him for work.
Lie to Non-Jews
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use subterfuges (lies) to circumvent a Gentile.
Kill, rob and steal Non-Jew
Baba Mezia 24a. If a Jew finds an object lost by a heathen (gentile) it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b).
Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a cuthean (gentile)...
Sanhedrin 57a. When a Jew murders a gentile, there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a cuthean (gentile) he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the the law and God has exposed their money to Israel.
[ Remember this when you seek the advice of Jewish lawyer ]
Non-Jews are Sub-humans
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Baba Mezia. Jews are human beings ; the other peoples of the world are not human beings, but beasts.
Abodah Zorah 22a-22b. Non-Jews prefer do sex with cows.
Hitting a Jew deserves death
Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.
Preparing for a crime
Moed kattan 17a. If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.
Blasphemy against Jesus Christ
Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is being boiled in hot excrement.
Blasphemy against the blessed Mary
Jewish names for the blessed Mary in Talmud
A prostitute, and an adulterer.
Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament
[ Dr. Israel Shahak of Hebrew University reports that the Israelis burned hundreds of New Testament Bibles in Occupied Palestine on March 23, 1980 (cf. Jewish History, Jewish religion, p.21 ). ]
As far as why the world hates the Jews and wants them dead, the reason is very clear.
Despite all of the evil deeds they have done since the beginning of time, I will not get into that, one need not look further then one of their holy books, the Talmud.
The Talmud teaches Jews to hate non-Jews and treat them like beasts, unhuman creatures. It teaches that its ok to steal, kill, rape, and abuse non-Jews.
Here are some quotes from the Talmud concerning non-Jews:
Cheat Non-Jews
Sanhedrin 57a. A Jew need not to pay a cuthean (gentile) the wages owed him for work.
Lie to Non-Jews
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use subterfuges (lies) to circumvent a Gentile.
Kill, rob and steal Non-Jew
Baba Mezia 24a. If a Jew finds an object lost by a heathen (gentile) it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b).
Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a cuthean (gentile)...
Sanhedrin 57a. When a Jew murders a gentile, there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a cuthean (gentile) he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the the law and God has exposed their money to Israel.
[ Remember this when you seek the advice of Jewish lawyer ]
Non-Jews are Sub-humans
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Baba Mezia. Jews are human beings ; the other peoples of the world are not human beings, but beasts.
Abodah Zorah 22a-22b. Non-Jews prefer do sex with cows.
Hitting a Jew deserves death
Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.
Preparing for a crime
Moed kattan 17a. If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.
Blasphemy against Jesus Christ
Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is being boiled in hot excrement.
Blasphemy against the blessed Mary
Jewish names for the blessed Mary in Talmud
A prostitute, and an adulterer.
Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament
[ Dr. Israel Shahak of Hebrew University reports that the Israelis burned hundreds of New Testament Bibles in Occupied Palestine on March 23, 1980 (cf. Jewish History, Jewish religion, p.21 ). ]
VicTusDeuS
New member
dballer said:
The Romans were the one that put king of the jews on top of the cross in a sarcastic way.
VicTusDeuS
New member
These towel headed fucks have a similiar book that says the same thing...it's called the Koran
MrDbol said:
S
Stumpy (The Fucking dumbass Piece of Shit!)
Guest
2Thick said:
What do you think?
Aussie Juga naught
New member
Code said:
Yep.
supernav said:
Wow are you a dumb motherfucker.
First the germans? How about egyptians, babylonians, romans, etc etc. You don't even know enough about history to post here.
Listen to yourself. Severakl Muslim countries havenear unlimited wealth and their people live like shit. Saudi Arabia? the royal family is wealthy beyond measure and 30% of the people are unemployed. Muslim countries are last in the world in everything.
Israel, on the other hand, is the only state in the Middle East where a native born Arab can vote, get an education, and have any real freedoms.
The Palestinians already had the land. They invaded Israel because they wanted to kill off the Jews. THEY LOST. After Germany captured land from France in 1870, did they just "give it back?" Fuck no. it doesn;t work like that. The Muslims invaded Israel, and lost. They had the land, and they wanted more.
And that "huge bomb" killed the leader of an organization that just kiled 5 Americans yesterday. What are you complaining about?
D
dballer
Guest
....AND THE WINNER FOR MOST BRAINWASHED AMERICAN IS...............
MatttheSkywalker
MatttheSkywalker
dballer said:
D-baller
Everything in my post above is a fact, and hardly controversial. I'll review for the remedial readers.
1. Jews have a long history of being disliked.
2. Muslim countries, despite considerable wealth, are last in the world in human rights and freedoms. Saudi Arabia is particularly bad, given their tremendous oil revenues...allowing 30% unemployment, a steady drop in per capita income, etc etc.
3. Israel is the only Middle eastern state where a Native born Arab or Muslim can select their leader through election.
4. Israel has been invaded numerous times by Arab and Muslime forces. In 1967, Israel defeated invading forces and occupied their land. This was the 3rd invasion in 19 years. The merits of occupation can be debated, who the aggressors were, cannot.
5. The killing of civilians by Israel is tragic. However, their aim was to kill a terrorist leader responsible for numerous attacks. The organziation, hamas, has claimed responsibility for the killing of 5 Americans at Hebrew University, and numerous otehr attacks over the opast years.
Can you refute any of those statements?
F
Frackal
Guest
Caesar_wv said:
LOL I love it, you god's real, their god's false, the cause of the loss of billions of lives over the centuries.
The rest of your post was right on though.
D
dballer
Guest
MattTheSkywalker said:
I could go through each and every one... and give you a diffrent side. But whould it do me any good. Some peolple are just too far gone.
There are 2 sides to every coin. For this coin..you have not looked at the other side. Besides. .. arguing against Israel makes you a racist, hate monger.. and I am not in a mood to be angered today. I did not get alot of sleep last night and I am very tired.
dballer said:
Well, when you are better rested, please shaer your opinion on those 5 statements. I am curious....you could change my mind.
Hope to hear from you.
PURE EXTRACT
New member
Code said:
Well, that land is originally theirs. And YES I AM CORRECT, this is a exactly what they say, a "holy war" because if you read in the Bible, the land was basically stolen from them.
PURE EXTRACT
New member
Caesar_wv said:
Exactly...a dumbass. False god? Since I don't believe in their god yes he is a false god, but that doesn't mean we can dismiss their beliefs. But the way they go about spreading their beliefs...is pretty fucked up don't ya think. Believe me if it were up to me, I'd just launce a full scale invasion on their land. I mean EVERYONE: USA, CANADA, our buddies in Europe. Just take over that shit. But anyway, Bin Laden is like that dude that made all those people drink that kool-aid. Joe something or James I can't remember. Jim Jones??? aah shit my memory is shot...hey guess what? I just bought some fina
Prometheus
New member
PURE EXTRACT said:
That's absurd -- if you're going to start honoring 2000 yr. old claims on land, then we should give all of Europe, N. Africa, and Mesopotamia back to Italy, being that the Romans owned all of it. The Greeks might object, but let them figure that out between the two.
PURE EXTRACT
New member
Dude...did you read what I just wrote?? HELLLLOOOOOO. To them this is where all of this originated from...I myself am NOT claiming this to be true. It is simply what they (Jews and Palestinians) believe. That's absurd lol
And those are completely different issues with Europe, Africa, and Mesopotamia. They were conquered. The Jews were supposedly robbed from their land. Ok I'll make it really simply:
Blind Father----has 2 sons
Son #1 is supposed to be blessed by his father and afterwards will receive the land.
Son #2 outraged by his father's decision. Steals his brother's clothes and goes to their father
Blind Pops over here is tricked into thinking that #2 is #1. He blesses him and he takes the land.
Thus war for all this time. Read it for yourself.
And those are completely different issues with Europe, Africa, and Mesopotamia. They were conquered. The Jews were supposedly robbed from their land. Ok I'll make it really simply:
Blind Father----has 2 sons
Son #1 is supposed to be blessed by his father and afterwards will receive the land.
Son #2 outraged by his father's decision. Steals his brother's clothes and goes to their father
Blind Pops over here is tricked into thinking that #2 is #1. He blesses him and he takes the land.
Thus war for all this time. Read it for yourself.
clusterfoxtrot
New member
Ahhhh...It's good to see my old pal DBaller back in the melee again. We'll keep it nice, right?
I will be the first to admit that I am not versed enough on religious history to make statements about the Talmud, Bible, Koran, etc.
I do know, however, a little a bit about intelligence operations, warfare, and strategic planning. Let me throw a few additional points out there:
1) Israel's missile strike which killed the leader of the militant wing of Hamas incurred collateral damage. Read civilians and kids. Intelligence reporting can be only so real-time when you are targeting an individual who moves locations 3X daily, has told his wife that they will be targeted, and willingly puts himself in the middle of children.
2) Notice how quickly the press buried the attack in Afghanistan several weeks ago which killed 40+ civilians at a wedding. How is this different? If anything, it is more egregious. Was there a AAA site in the middle of the village? Who knows?
3) Much of our first strike capability in the Mid-East is through Israel. They are our eyes and ears to Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, etc. Without their intel gathering capabilities and language skills, we would be near blind. Case in point: Iraq's nuclear reactor at Osiraq. Israel went in and destoyed the reactor before it came online in '81. Could the US have handled that operation so cleanly?
4) If you wan't to point the finger for Sep. 11, point it at the Clinton administration. The eviscerated our intelligence analysis capabilities. Not saying that we would have caught the comm in time, or even been able to interpret properly, but we are still flying in the dark. We let this whole Al Qaeda network grow under our nose. We had years of L-band intercepts from bin Laden himself and knew what he was up to. The fact that our arms have been bound, preventing us from tactical assasinations for decades has kept us from taking preemptive measure.
5) Israel provides us with a place where we can actually interrogate suspects. Because of candy-ass liberals, we cannot properly obtain information from suspects on US soil. When the caught the #4 al Qaeda guy a month or so ago - they took him to an "undisclosed location" for interrogation. Israel.
6) Why isn't anybody squawking about that little prick John Walker Lindh? The bastard is jailed up 4 miles from my house. I drive by him every day. He had info on the uprising that killed Mr. Spann. The should have interrogated him, given him a field trial for treason, and shot the little bastard on the spot.
Instead of trying to theorize about how "the Jews are evil" and how they are the reason for Sep. 11, and they control the media, ad nauseum - how about thinking about standing behind the only voice of reason in the Mid-East and standing up for the United States. We, the US, is to blame for Sep. 11.
Who really gives a crap about stories laid to parchment 1000-2000 years ago. There is no proof or historical accuracy in any of the documents. The fact that anyone would try and relate the equivalent of a fictional publication to current events/facts indiciates that they really don't have enough control and self-confidence to drive their own destiny.
Preemptively, I will answer the inevitable questions:
-Yes, I am Jewish;
-Yes, I am American;
-No, I do not consider myself religious, but rather spiritual - my relationship with God is my business, no one else's;
-Yes, I have been to the Mid-East and seen first hand what is going on;
-Yes, I know the story of the USS Liberty, don't bother going there.
Enjoy kids....
CF
I will be the first to admit that I am not versed enough on religious history to make statements about the Talmud, Bible, Koran, etc.
I do know, however, a little a bit about intelligence operations, warfare, and strategic planning. Let me throw a few additional points out there:
1) Israel's missile strike which killed the leader of the militant wing of Hamas incurred collateral damage. Read civilians and kids. Intelligence reporting can be only so real-time when you are targeting an individual who moves locations 3X daily, has told his wife that they will be targeted, and willingly puts himself in the middle of children.
2) Notice how quickly the press buried the attack in Afghanistan several weeks ago which killed 40+ civilians at a wedding. How is this different? If anything, it is more egregious. Was there a AAA site in the middle of the village? Who knows?
3) Much of our first strike capability in the Mid-East is through Israel. They are our eyes and ears to Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, etc. Without their intel gathering capabilities and language skills, we would be near blind. Case in point: Iraq's nuclear reactor at Osiraq. Israel went in and destoyed the reactor before it came online in '81. Could the US have handled that operation so cleanly?
4) If you wan't to point the finger for Sep. 11, point it at the Clinton administration. The eviscerated our intelligence analysis capabilities. Not saying that we would have caught the comm in time, or even been able to interpret properly, but we are still flying in the dark. We let this whole Al Qaeda network grow under our nose. We had years of L-band intercepts from bin Laden himself and knew what he was up to. The fact that our arms have been bound, preventing us from tactical assasinations for decades has kept us from taking preemptive measure.
5) Israel provides us with a place where we can actually interrogate suspects. Because of candy-ass liberals, we cannot properly obtain information from suspects on US soil. When the caught the #4 al Qaeda guy a month or so ago - they took him to an "undisclosed location" for interrogation. Israel.
6) Why isn't anybody squawking about that little prick John Walker Lindh? The bastard is jailed up 4 miles from my house. I drive by him every day. He had info on the uprising that killed Mr. Spann. The should have interrogated him, given him a field trial for treason, and shot the little bastard on the spot.
Instead of trying to theorize about how "the Jews are evil" and how they are the reason for Sep. 11, and they control the media, ad nauseum - how about thinking about standing behind the only voice of reason in the Mid-East and standing up for the United States. We, the US, is to blame for Sep. 11.
Who really gives a crap about stories laid to parchment 1000-2000 years ago. There is no proof or historical accuracy in any of the documents. The fact that anyone would try and relate the equivalent of a fictional publication to current events/facts indiciates that they really don't have enough control and self-confidence to drive their own destiny.
Preemptively, I will answer the inevitable questions:
-Yes, I am Jewish;
-Yes, I am American;
-No, I do not consider myself religious, but rather spiritual - my relationship with God is my business, no one else's;
-Yes, I have been to the Mid-East and seen first hand what is going on;
-Yes, I know the story of the USS Liberty, don't bother going there.
Enjoy kids....
CF
C
Code
Guest
clusterfoxtrot said:
Everyone here is versed on these as well.
Everyone is also 225 pounds @4% bodyfat.
Stop watching the History Channel, it doesn't make you an honorary member of Mossad.
Prometheus
New member
PURE EXTRACT said:Dude...did you read what I just wrote?? HELLLLOOOOOO. To them this is where all of this originated from...I myself am NOT claiming this to be true. It is simply what they (Jews and Palestinians) believe. That's absurd lol
And those are completely different issues with Europe, Africa, and Mesopotamia. They were conquered. The Jews were supposedly robbed from their land.
Evidently I misunderstood your post... Obviously, THEY (Jews and Palestinians) believe they each have a valid 2000 year old claim on tribal land -- at least I hope so, otherwise they are blowing up each other's children for no reason at all...
As for conquering or stealing - don't get it. There seems to be little distinction between the claims of people who are driven off of land by a pillaging army and people that are tricked off their land by deception - they both lost the land involuntarily.
some of you are so fucking stupid...
oh the israelis are keeping the palestinians from being educated...?
thats why the schools were decent when israel also have civil rule ...now that they take care of their own education they suck ass.
Now,
The ARABS are the dirtiest, most pathetic, and have the worse inferiority complex ...in the world. get over your resentment that you look like shit and wear a fucking dishrag over your head....they are ugly motherfuckers too...for the most part. and they know that they are the lowliest people in the world and the most depraved society...in the world. more people would hate them if they were actually good at anything and weren't such ulgy motherfuckers. why do the vast majority look like dirty fuckers? and the reason jews are resented is becuase they are very succesfful and powerful for their size, not any other reason. Get over your jealosy and inferiority complex. its pathetic, when a man can't admit that he is just jealous.
they treat their people like total garbage...Muslims are the most hateful people in the world...please...stop the nonsense...if jews gave them anything the fucking arabs would ...go lets kill all the jews, they are weak...allahuakbar...whatever that fucking stupid shit they say...
I fucking rejoice, when i see the squalor that the palestians...live in...
Funny as hell when israel blows up...a car with missiles or a house. they are some tough motherfuckers, if they didnt have to worry about the world opinion they would just eliminate all the palestinians. they bring it upon themselves. they "elect" their leaders , and therefore they pay the price.
lets not forget that there is only one country in muslim world that is democratic, turkey. and it is a crappy one at that. coincidence. human rights, nope. womens rights, nope. religious freedomn, nope. political rights, nope. dignity, nope.
ARABS TREAT EACH OTHER SHITTITER THAN OTHERS.
Stop the moral equivalancy arguments. they are lame and stupid.
Arabs will always be the least integrated minority and for good reason. they will NEVER be accepted as a real American. ...thank fucking GOD...
oh the israelis are keeping the palestinians from being educated...?
thats why the schools were decent when israel also have civil rule ...now that they take care of their own education they suck ass.
Now,
The ARABS are the dirtiest, most pathetic, and have the worse inferiority complex ...in the world. get over your resentment that you look like shit and wear a fucking dishrag over your head....they are ugly motherfuckers too...for the most part. and they know that they are the lowliest people in the world and the most depraved society...in the world. more people would hate them if they were actually good at anything and weren't such ulgy motherfuckers. why do the vast majority look like dirty fuckers? and the reason jews are resented is becuase they are very succesfful and powerful for their size, not any other reason. Get over your jealosy and inferiority complex. its pathetic, when a man can't admit that he is just jealous.
they treat their people like total garbage...Muslims are the most hateful people in the world...please...stop the nonsense...if jews gave them anything the fucking arabs would ...go lets kill all the jews, they are weak...allahuakbar...whatever that fucking stupid shit they say...
I fucking rejoice, when i see the squalor that the palestians...live in...
Funny as hell when israel blows up...a car with missiles or a house. they are some tough motherfuckers, if they didnt have to worry about the world opinion they would just eliminate all the palestinians. they bring it upon themselves. they "elect" their leaders , and therefore they pay the price.
lets not forget that there is only one country in muslim world that is democratic, turkey. and it is a crappy one at that. coincidence. human rights, nope. womens rights, nope. religious freedomn, nope. political rights, nope. dignity, nope.
ARABS TREAT EACH OTHER SHITTITER THAN OTHERS.
Stop the moral equivalancy arguments. they are lame and stupid.
Arabs will always be the least integrated minority and for good reason. they will NEVER be accepted as a real American. ...thank fucking GOD...
D
dballer
Guest
Mr. Foxtrot.. I hope that book you posted back there was not directed at me totally???
remember... I am anti-Israel... that has nothing to do with your gefelta eating ass!!! remember.. we are all pretty much the same until it boils down to this. Israel is a country.. not a race.
so stop yelling at me
remember... I am anti-Israel... that has nothing to do with your gefelta eating ass!!! remember.. we are all pretty much the same until it boils down to this. Israel is a country.. not a race.
so stop yelling at me
PURE EXTRACT
New member
Prometheus said:
Yeah, but c'mon...it is different. Being tricked and getting your asses kick..difference. But whatever just hope none of you ever have to deal with their problems first hand.
clusterfoxtrot
New member
Code: I wish I had time to sit around and watch the History Channel. It is also evident that the bulk of the discussion knows little or nothing about intelligence and warfare.
DBaller: Boy, you have no sense of humor - go take a nap. You don't remember our last round on the same subject? No, it wasn't directed at you, in fact it was sincere that I said it was good to see your opposite views in the discussion. FYI - I can't stand gifilte fish, much less spell it properly.
I will be the first to agree that Israel is a country, not a religion. For the record, 80% of the country is Jewish, 20% is non Jewish. Of the 20%, 15% are Muslim, 2% Christian, and 3% other.
DBaller: Boy, you have no sense of humor - go take a nap. You don't remember our last round on the same subject? No, it wasn't directed at you, in fact it was sincere that I said it was good to see your opposite views in the discussion. FYI - I can't stand gifilte fish, much less spell it properly.
I will be the first to agree that Israel is a country, not a religion. For the record, 80% of the country is Jewish, 20% is non Jewish. Of the 20%, 15% are Muslim, 2% Christian, and 3% other.
C
Code
Guest
clusterfoxtrot said:
I think it would most prudent to say that the discussion has nothing to do with intel or warfare.
clusterfoxtrot
New member
It absolutely does. If we didn't need Israel's capabilities, then we wouldn't provide them the economic aid we do. the near equivalent aid we provide Egypt is in an effort to provide stability, almost equating to blackmail IMO.
Some people want to argue the (de)merits of Israel or the Jews in general based on unproven, ancient texts. I prefer to argue the point based on currently available facts and information. The fact that the troubles began, stemming from a religious "family feud," have now evolved into modern warfare, intertwined with terrorism on US soil - absolutely make the topic relevant.
Some people want to argue the (de)merits of Israel or the Jews in general based on unproven, ancient texts. I prefer to argue the point based on currently available facts and information. The fact that the troubles began, stemming from a religious "family feud," have now evolved into modern warfare, intertwined with terrorism on US soil - absolutely make the topic relevant.
Steroid_Virgin
New member
Both Jews & Arabs cause more problems than either group is worth.. all they do is drag the rest of us down.. both groups are parasitic, self centered religous crazed maniacs.. Personally I enjoy watching them kill eachother... hope lots more of both groups die.. becuase when they are all dead, we have a shot at peace..
C
Code
Guest
clusterfoxtrot said:
Remind me what we need Israel for??
Our petroleum? No, in fact, we would stand a better chance to get it cheaper if we just looked the other way as the OPEC nations took over Israel.
We are on good enough terms with Saudi that we don't need Israel's land to launch strategic attacks against other nations in the area.
This isn't a family feud, there ain't no Speed Round at the end of all this to determine the winner of the ten thousand dollars.
Seriously though, why do we "need" Israel? I can answer that, because we are a ZIONIST nation.
clusterfoxtrot
New member
Wow Code, you really are ignorant.
1) The Arab ("OPEC") nations tried to take over Israel, they lost;
2) The Saudis can't be trusted. They are offering $ to families of suicide bombers, they are home to the bin Laden family, they have manipulated their resources and engaged in price fixing which would otherwise be illegal in the US;
3) No way the Saudis will let us launch any preemptive operations from their country. Hell, they won't even let our female soldiers go off-base without a burka over their head. The only reason the Saudis have let us keep our bases their is to protect their, and Kuwait's, cowardly asses from another invasion.
4) Al-Jezeera, need I say more?
5) Again, you missed the salient points in my argument: We "need" Israel because we have NO other allies in the Mid-East that we can consistantly rely on.
6) What exactly is a Zionist nation? Considering the fact that there are only 13M Jews on the planet, about 7M that live in the US, that would make the US 2% Jewish.
1) The Arab ("OPEC") nations tried to take over Israel, they lost;
2) The Saudis can't be trusted. They are offering $ to families of suicide bombers, they are home to the bin Laden family, they have manipulated their resources and engaged in price fixing which would otherwise be illegal in the US;
3) No way the Saudis will let us launch any preemptive operations from their country. Hell, they won't even let our female soldiers go off-base without a burka over their head. The only reason the Saudis have let us keep our bases their is to protect their, and Kuwait's, cowardly asses from another invasion.
4) Al-Jezeera, need I say more?
5) Again, you missed the salient points in my argument: We "need" Israel because we have NO other allies in the Mid-East that we can consistantly rely on.
6) What exactly is a Zionist nation? Considering the fact that there are only 13M Jews on the planet, about 7M that live in the US, that would make the US 2% Jewish.
C
Code
Guest
clusterfoxtrot said:
You made my first point on your own, we *have* bases in Saudi to launch an attach from.
Look up Zionist Nation, then come back to me when you've been educated. If you think for a second we aren't a Zionist nation you need a head adjustment, just look at our voting record at the UN regarding Israel for proof.
Al-Jezeera??? Thats like saying the US is bad because of CNN.
The arab nations (OPEC) failed because of the support we gave to Israel each time. They'd be flat on their asses looking to get a new nation if we didn't constantly provide them with weapons and training and money (another fact to support the the concept of the US being a zionist nation).
Boy, what do you do regarding intel and warfare? Because you just *bowled* me over with that informed reply.
clusterfoxtrot
New member
PS:
Yeah the OPEC countries are really a bunch of good guys: Iran, Iraq, Algeria, Indonesia, Libya, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, and Nigeria. The only exception is Venezuela.
Yeah, these are the guys I wan't to rely on for my energy. We should boycott OPEC if anything. The fact that they have basically blackmailed us, should say something about who we are doing business with.
If for no other reason, it should be becasue OPEC has the WORST logo in the world.
Yeah the OPEC countries are really a bunch of good guys: Iran, Iraq, Algeria, Indonesia, Libya, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, and Nigeria. The only exception is Venezuela.
Yeah, these are the guys I wan't to rely on for my energy. We should boycott OPEC if anything. The fact that they have basically blackmailed us, should say something about who we are doing business with.
If for no other reason, it should be becasue OPEC has the WORST logo in the world.
D
dballer
Guest
clusterfoxtrot said:
I just don't want you trying to repay me for the holocaust or anything!!! I say that gun list... so.. it is cool.. I will like Israel if you want me to.
Dude.. I thought you would laugh at that post... sense of humor?? I AM a sense of humor!!!BTW.. I am wearing my Minor Threat "out of step" t-shirt today.
gefela-- whatever... I am glad you do not eat that. I have a friend whos family is into eating that stuff..... I cannot even come up with the words to describe it.
C
Code
Guest
clusterfoxtrot said:
I'll give the bad logo thing.....
No one said OPEC was good.
I'm just saying Israel wouldn't exist if we didn't go out of our way to keep them alive.
D
dballer
Guest
I meant to say... I SAW that gun list.. on assplorers thread.
C
Code
Guest
dballer said:
I just don't want you trying to repay me for the holocaust or anything!!! I say that gun list... so.. it is cool.. I will like Israel if you want me to.
BTW.. I am wearing my Minor Threat "out of step" t-shirt today.
gefela-- whatever... I am glad you do not eat that. I have a friend whos family is into eating that stuff..... I cannot even come up with the words to describe it.
Minor Threat rocks!
Speaking of punk, are you going to tune into Henry Rollins' show??
D
dballer
Guest
Code said:
yeah.. I love Rollins.. my favorite modern prophet.
when is it gonna be on though?????
C
Code
Guest
dballer said:
Aug 11th Comedy Central.
Not sure of the time.
clusterfoxtrot
New member
DB: Isn't that Minor Threat shirt the one with the with the sheep on it? I couldn't fit into any of those old ones if I tried. Funny story: A gentile friend and I were standing in a deli in B'more. He looked at the pickled herring in sour cream and said "ahhhh...that explains it."
"Explains what," I replied.
"Why you never see Jews standing preaching on the street corner."
"What the hell are you talking about," I respond.
He points at the herring and says "it's because all the Jews are home with upset stomachs from eating shit like that!"
I don't touch the crap.
_______________________________________________
Code:
First, if you think the Saudis are going to let us launch preemptive strikes on another Arab country, then you are terribly mistaken.
Second, I have misplaced my "Bartlett's Book of Contrived Phrases" so I apologize for not being able to verify a "definition" of a Zionist nation. According to the American Heritage dictionary (only one I have handy) the definition of Zionism is:
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.
Based on that definition, that would make the US also pro-Egyptian, pro-England, pro-Mexico, etc.
Lastly, US economic aid to Israel is being eliminated over the next 5 years or so - I don't think they are too worried about it. The Israeli's also use French, Swedish, and arms from other countries. Their reliance upon the US is minimal. In fact, they launched their own spy satellites and built their own nuclear reactor without US aid or assistance. Those are about the 2 most strategic fundamentals a country can have.
As far as what I do? I'm a communications consultant and advisor. Prior to that, I designed and installed command and control centers for the DoD, before that developed electronics for various black projects, before that - I don't exist
"Explains what," I replied.
"Why you never see Jews standing preaching on the street corner."
"What the hell are you talking about," I respond.
He points at the herring and says "it's because all the Jews are home with upset stomachs from eating shit like that!"
I don't touch the crap.
_______________________________________________
Code:
First, if you think the Saudis are going to let us launch preemptive strikes on another Arab country, then you are terribly mistaken.
Second, I have misplaced my "Bartlett's Book of Contrived Phrases" so I apologize for not being able to verify a "definition" of a Zionist nation. According to the American Heritage dictionary (only one I have handy) the definition of Zionism is:
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.
Based on that definition, that would make the US also pro-Egyptian, pro-England, pro-Mexico, etc.
Lastly, US economic aid to Israel is being eliminated over the next 5 years or so - I don't think they are too worried about it. The Israeli's also use French, Swedish, and arms from other countries. Their reliance upon the US is minimal. In fact, they launched their own spy satellites and built their own nuclear reactor without US aid or assistance. Those are about the 2 most strategic fundamentals a country can have.
As far as what I do? I'm a communications consultant and advisor. Prior to that, I designed and installed command and control centers for the DoD, before that developed electronics for various black projects, before that - I don't exist
D
dballer
Guest
Code... thanks.. I will be there for sure.
See everyone.. The NAZI, HOMO-HATING, Ku Klux Klan Grand Wizard, Hate Monger, Inbred cro-mag... just turned the heated debate into a pleasant converation about 80's punk rock..... see I am not so bad... why do you persecute me .... now can I please be a MOD???
See everyone.. The NAZI, HOMO-HATING, Ku Klux Klan Grand Wizard, Hate Monger, Inbred cro-mag... just turned the heated debate into a pleasant converation about 80's punk rock..... see I am not so bad... why do you persecute me .... now can I please be a MOD???
clusterfoxtrot
New member
Cro-Mags! Dude I got my head cracked open on the center column at the OLD 9:30 club during a Cro-Mags/Ag-Front show years ago. I miss that place.
D
dballer
Guest
yep that is it. This one is new. I was 115 pounds back in the day... I am 208 right now.. I can barley fit into shit I was wearing last year.
I just had to give away a killer GVSB shirt.. and a Circle Jerks group sex shirt.
clusterfoxtrot
New member
Oh DB - Speaking of guns, we just started work on the baddest MFing system. A linkable remote control sniper system. Up to 4 rifles, .223 - .50 BMG, .6 MOA accuracy - bad ass.
We are figuring out a way to integrate the fire control system into a searchable database of predesignated "targets."
Got to play with it the other day at Quantico.
None of this stuff is classified, BTW.
We are figuring out a way to integrate the fire control system into a searchable database of predesignated "targets."
Got to play with it the other day at Quantico.
None of this stuff is classified, BTW.
Ffactor
New member
MattThe Skywalker-
I disagree that we give equal military support to Egypt and Israel and I will try to find some facts to post here.
Regardless of my feelings towards these two countries, I think these problems are arising because we have created a HUGE military imbalance in that part of the world.
Israel is apparently the second largest airforce in the world. Based on the GNP of Israel this would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to obtain unless we were COMPLETELY funding their airforce.
All Israeli helicopters, F-15's, tanks, weapons are American made.
Using words like camnel humpers. kikes, towel heads and so on makes us feel more powerful or in some way more patriotic....including myself.
This is not a war about religion any more.
I will try to find some facts about foreign aid to Israel and post.
I disagree that we give equal military support to Egypt and Israel and I will try to find some facts to post here.
Regardless of my feelings towards these two countries, I think these problems are arising because we have created a HUGE military imbalance in that part of the world.
Israel is apparently the second largest airforce in the world. Based on the GNP of Israel this would be IMPOSSIBLE for them to obtain unless we were COMPLETELY funding their airforce.
All Israeli helicopters, F-15's, tanks, weapons are American made.
Using words like camnel humpers. kikes, towel heads and so on makes us feel more powerful or in some way more patriotic....including myself.
This is not a war about religion any more.
I will try to find some facts about foreign aid to Israel and post.
clusterfoxtrot
New member
I know the feeling...I sadly parted with a variety of shirts designed for a 140 lb kid...now a 200 lb adult. Had a huge yardsale last weekend (made over 1000.00) sold 2 boxes of original Biohazard, Venom, Motorhead, Slayer, Napalm Death, Black Flag, etc. shirts for 20.00. Oh well....
Ffactor
New member
JANUARY/FEBRUARY 2001, Pages 15-16
Congress Watch
A Conservative Total for U.S. Aid to Israel: $91 Billion—and Counting
By Shirl McArthur
With the turmoil surrounding the presidential election essentially freezing Congress into inaction, this is probably a good time to take another look at aid to Israel. The common figure given for U.S. aid to Israel is $3 billion per year—$1.2 billion in economic aid and $1.8 billion in military aid. As impressive as this figure is, however, since it represents about one-sixth of total U.S. foreign aid, the true figure is even more remarkable. It is difficult, however, to arrive at an exact number. Much of the money the U.S. gives Israel is buried in the budgets of other government agencies, primarily the Defense Department (DOD). Other subsidies come in a form that isn’t easily quantifiable, such as the early disbursement of aid, which allows Israel to gain (and the U.S. taxpayer to lose) the interest on the unspent money.
This year’s appropriations bills for FY 2001, which began Oct. 1, 2000, include, in addition to the $2.82 billion in economic and military foreign aid to Israel, an additional $60 million in so-called refugee resettlement and $250 million in the DOD budget, plus $85 million imputed interest, for a total of at least $3.215 billion. In addition, on Nov. 14, 2000, President William Clinton sent a special request to Congress for an additional $450 million in military aid to Israel in FY 2001, plus $350 million for FY 2002.
The package also included $225 million in military aid for Egypt and $75 million in security assistance for Jordan. The $450 million for Israel is not included in these calculations, because it is unclear at this writing whether Congress will approve the package in the current political climate.
Calculating Total U.S. Aid
Unquestionably, Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. aid since World War II. Estimates for total U.S. aid to Israel vary, however, because of the uncertainties and ambiguities described above. An Oct. 27, 2000 Congressional Research Service (CRS) report, using available and verifiable numbers, gives cumulative aid to Israel from 1949 through FY 2000 (which ended Sept. 30, 2000) at $81.38 billion. On the other hand, last year the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs estimated total aid to Israel through FY 2000 at $91.82 billion.
The CRS number surely is too low, because, although it does include such things as the old food-for-peace program, the $1.2 billion from the Wye agreement, and the current subsidy for “refugee resettlement,” it does not include money from the DOD budget, on the grounds that those funds are for joint research and development projects. Nor does the CRS figure include estimated interest on the early disbursement of aid funds. Last year’s Washington Report estimate imputes an amount for “other aid” (including the DOD) that may no longer be valid, based as it is on a thorough study of three representative years. While this year’s estimate is more conservative, the results are still shockingly high.
To the CRS number of $81.38 billion through FY 2000 can be added (with details to follow):
• $4.28 billion from the DOD; and
• $1.72 billion in interest from early disbursement of aid, for a total of $87.38 billion through Sept. 30, 2000. To that can be added the $3.22 billion detailed above, giving a grand total of $90.6 billion total aid to Israel through FY 2001. Approval of Clinton’s special request for $450 million more in military aid would push the number over $91 billion.
Defense Department Funds
A search going back several years was able to identify $3.423 billion in specific DOD line items appropriated to Israel. Since that figure includes only the programs that were uncovered, it is reasonable to add 25 percent, or $856 million, to account for what was not found. The largest items in the DOD budget were $1.3 billion for the cancelled Lavi attack fighter project; $628 million for the ongoing Arrow anti-missile missile project; and $200 million for the completed Merkava tank. The fact that the U.S. military was not interested in the Lavi or the Merkava for its own use and has said the same thing about the Arrow would seem to invalidate the argument that these are “joint defense projects.”
Interest
Israel began receiving early disbursement of U.S. economic aid in 1982, and of military aid in 1991. It would be inaccurate to simply apply the rate of interest to the amount of aid, because it has to be assumed that the aid monies were drawn down over the course of the year. In 1991 it was reported that Israel earned $86 million in interest on the economic aid money deposited in the U.S. Treasury. Since the period from 1982 to 1991 was a time of relatively high interest rates, the figure of $860 million (86 x 10) seems a reasonably conservative estimate for those 10 years. For the nine years since 1991, a 6 percent rate was applied to one-half of the economic aid, for a total of $324 million over the past decade.
On the military aid, the 6 percent rate was applied to one-half of the military aid for the 10 years it has been disbursed early, for a total of $540 million.
Some Comparisons
The impressive numbers for U.S. aid to Israel become even more so when they, and the attached conditions, are compared with other Middle East countries. The roughly $3.3 billion in annual aid compares with some $2 billion for Egypt, $225 million for Jordan, and $35 million for Lebanon. Aid for the Palestinian Authority (PA) is not earmarked, but has been running at about $100 million. Furthermore, aid to the PA is strictly controlled by the U.S. Agency for International Development, and goes for specific projects, mostly civil infrastructure projects such as water and sewers.
On the other hand, the U.S. gives Israel all of its economic aid directly in cash, with no accounting of how the funds are used. The military aid from the DOD budget is mostly for specific projects. Significantly however, considering current events, one of those projects was the development of the Merkava tank, which has been encircling and firing on Palestinian towns in the West Bank and Gaza.
The only condition the congressional foreign aid bill places on military aid to Israel is that about 75 percent of it has to be spent in the U.S. In contrast with other countries receiving military aid, however, who purchase through the DOD, Israel deals directly with U.S. companies, with no DOD review.
Special mention should also be made of the details of the Wye agreement. All of the $400 million going to the PA under the agreement is economic aid, whereas all of the $1.2 billion for Israel is for military projects and programs. These include $40 million for armored personnel carriers and $360 million for Apache helicopters, again significant considering current events.
Loans, The “Cranston Amendment,” and Loan Guarantees
Currently, Israel owes the U.S. government almost $3 billion in economic and military loans. Direct government-to-government loans are included in the above numbers for total aid, because repayment of several loans has been “waived” by the U.S. Israeli officials are fond of saying that Israel has never defaulted on a loan from the U.S. Technically, this is true. The CRS report, however, notes that from FY 1994 through FY 1998 $29 billion in U.S. loans have been waived for Israel. Therefore, it is reasonable to consider all loans to Israel the same as grants.
There seems to be much confusion about the so-called “Cranston Amendment,” named after the California senator who sponsored it in 1984. The amendment said, simply, that it is “the policy and intention” of the U.S. to give Israel economic aid “not less than” the amount Israel owes the U.S. in annual debt interest and principal payments.
Since official economic aid to Israel has always been considerably higher than the annual debt repayments, this is something of a non-issue. Furthermore, since the amendment is simply a statement of policy and intent, it may not be legally binding. In any event, although the amendment was included in every aid appropriations bill through FY 1998, it has not been repeated in the FY 1999, 2000, and 2001 appropriations bills.
The amount of U.S. government loan guarantees to Israel was not included in the above numbers, because they have not cost the U.S. any money (yet), although they are listed as “contingent liabilities” (that is, they would become liabilities to the U.S. should Israel default). Nevertheless, they unquestionably have been of tangible financial benefit to Israel. The major loan guarantees issued by Washington have been $600 million for housing between 1972 and 1990; the much publicized $10 billion for Soviet Jewish resettlement between 1992 and 1997; and some $5 billion for refinancing military loans commercially. Currently, the total U.S. contingent liability for Israeli loans is about $10 billion.
The Neeman Agreement
After Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu told Congress in 1996 that he wanted to reduce the level of U.S. economic aid to Israel, Israeli Finance Minister Yaacov Neeman met with members of Congress in January 1998 to negotiate the details. After much backing and forthing, they reached agreement that Israel’s then-$1.2 billion in economic aid would be decreased annually, beginning FY 1999, by $120 million, and the $1.8 billion in military aid would be increased by half that, or $60 million.
As a little-reported part of the deal, the amount of military aid that Israel was allowed to spend in Israel would be increased by $15 million per year. From FY 1988 through 1990 Israel was allowed to use $400 million of its $1.8 billion U.S. military aid in Israel. Beginning in FY 1991 that was increased to $475 million. As a result of the Neeman agreement, beginning in FY 1999 the aid appropriations bill gave the amount to be spent in Israel as a percentage of the total, rather than a stated amount. This maneuver helped hide from U.S. defense contractors the fact that the U.S. direct subsidy to their Israeli competitors was being increased by $15 million per year. For FY 2001 the stated percentage works out to $520 million. None of this is included in the above figures, because it does not represent a direct cost to the U.S. taxpayers. It is clearly an indirect cost, however, in terms of lost tax revenue and lost business for American companies. X
Shirl McArthur, a retired foreign service officer, is a consultant in the Washington, DC area.
SIDEBAR #1
Arab Americans Lose Ground in Congress
While Arab-American candidates broke even in the 2000 elections for the House of Representatives, a major loss was suffered in the Senate, where the only Arab-American senator, Michigan Republican Spencer Abraham, was narrowly and unexpectedly defeated by former Rep. Debbie Stabenow (D-MI). Stabenow had a neutral score in this magazine’s Congressional Report Card (August/September issue), with one positive and one negative mark, although she did sign the letter to President Clinton urging the delinking of the economic sanctions against Iraq from the military sanctions.
In the House, Arab-American Reps. John Baldacci (D-ME), Chris John (D-LA), Ray LaHood (R-IL), Nick Rahall (D-WV), and John Sununu (R-NH) all were re-elected. In addition, Republican newcomer Darrell Issa was easily elected in California. Issa’s victory offset the narrow defeat of Democrat Steve Danner in Missouri for the seat previously held by retiring Rep. Pat Danner (D-MO).
Other re-elected representatives sympathetic to issues important to Arab Americans include Reps. David Bonior (D-MI), John Conyers (D-MI), Tom Davis (R-VA), John Dingell (D-MI), Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), Bob Ney (R-OH), and Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA). Unfortunately, a champion of Arab-American issues was lost when Rep. Tom Campbell (R-CA) failed in his bid to unseat Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA).
Other congressional election news included the surprise defeat of Rep. Sam Gejdenson (D-CT), who was the ranking Democrat on the House International Relations Committee. Although he was widely considered a good friend of Israel, Gejdenson’s report card was only slightly negative, with no positive and one negative mark. He is expected to be replaced as ranking Democrat on the committee by Rep. Tom Lantos (D-CA), also considered a strong friend of Israel. A Holocaust survivor, Lantos might be expected to be sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians living under the heel of a brutal occupying power, but his report card showed one positive and two negative marks. Lantos also signed the letter to Clinton urging the president to “stand firm” in keeping the economic sanctions on Iraq. —S.M.
This Issue´s TOC
Current Issue
Back Issues
Contact Us
Today's News
WRMEA News
Activists' Corner
Resources
Subscribe
About WRMEA
Home
© Copyright 1995-2001, American Educational Trust. All Rights Reserved.
Congress Watch
A Conservative Total for U.S. Aid to Israel: $91 Billion—and Counting
By Shirl McArthur
With the turmoil surrounding the presidential election essentially freezing Congress into inaction, this is probably a good time to take another look at aid to Israel. The common figure given for U.S. aid to Israel is $3 billion per year—$1.2 billion in economic aid and $1.8 billion in military aid. As impressive as this figure is, however, since it represents about one-sixth of total U.S. foreign aid, the true figure is even more remarkable. It is difficult, however, to arrive at an exact number. Much of the money the U.S. gives Israel is buried in the budgets of other government agencies, primarily the Defense Department (DOD). Other subsidies come in a form that isn’t easily quantifiable, such as the early disbursement of aid, which allows Israel to gain (and the U.S. taxpayer to lose) the interest on the unspent money.
This year’s appropriations bills for FY 2001, which began Oct. 1, 2000, include, in addition to the $2.82 billion in economic and military foreign aid to Israel, an additional $60 million in so-called refugee resettlement and $250 million in the DOD budget, plus $85 million imputed interest, for a total of at least $3.215 billion. In addition, on Nov. 14, 2000, President William Clinton sent a special request to Congress for an additional $450 million in military aid to Israel in FY 2001, plus $350 million for FY 2002.
The package also included $225 million in military aid for Egypt and $75 million in security assistance for Jordan. The $450 million for Israel is not included in these calculations, because it is unclear at this writing whether Congress will approve the package in the current political climate.
Calculating Total U.S. Aid
Unquestionably, Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. aid since World War II. Estimates for total U.S. aid to Israel vary, however, because of the uncertainties and ambiguities described above. An Oct. 27, 2000 Congressional Research Service (CRS) report, using available and verifiable numbers, gives cumulative aid to Israel from 1949 through FY 2000 (which ended Sept. 30, 2000) at $81.38 billion. On the other hand, last year the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs estimated total aid to Israel through FY 2000 at $91.82 billion.
The CRS number surely is too low, because, although it does include such things as the old food-for-peace program, the $1.2 billion from the Wye agreement, and the current subsidy for “refugee resettlement,” it does not include money from the DOD budget, on the grounds that those funds are for joint research and development projects. Nor does the CRS figure include estimated interest on the early disbursement of aid funds. Last year’s Washington Report estimate imputes an amount for “other aid” (including the DOD) that may no longer be valid, based as it is on a thorough study of three representative years. While this year’s estimate is more conservative, the results are still shockingly high.
To the CRS number of $81.38 billion through FY 2000 can be added (with details to follow):
• $4.28 billion from the DOD; and
• $1.72 billion in interest from early disbursement of aid, for a total of $87.38 billion through Sept. 30, 2000. To that can be added the $3.22 billion detailed above, giving a grand total of $90.6 billion total aid to Israel through FY 2001. Approval of Clinton’s special request for $450 million more in military aid would push the number over $91 billion.
Defense Department Funds
A search going back several years was able to identify $3.423 billion in specific DOD line items appropriated to Israel. Since that figure includes only the programs that were uncovered, it is reasonable to add 25 percent, or $856 million, to account for what was not found. The largest items in the DOD budget were $1.3 billion for the cancelled Lavi attack fighter project; $628 million for the ongoing Arrow anti-missile missile project; and $200 million for the completed Merkava tank. The fact that the U.S. military was not interested in the Lavi or the Merkava for its own use and has said the same thing about the Arrow would seem to invalidate the argument that these are “joint defense projects.”
Interest
Israel began receiving early disbursement of U.S. economic aid in 1982, and of military aid in 1991. It would be inaccurate to simply apply the rate of interest to the amount of aid, because it has to be assumed that the aid monies were drawn down over the course of the year. In 1991 it was reported that Israel earned $86 million in interest on the economic aid money deposited in the U.S. Treasury. Since the period from 1982 to 1991 was a time of relatively high interest rates, the figure of $860 million (86 x 10) seems a reasonably conservative estimate for those 10 years. For the nine years since 1991, a 6 percent rate was applied to one-half of the economic aid, for a total of $324 million over the past decade.
On the military aid, the 6 percent rate was applied to one-half of the military aid for the 10 years it has been disbursed early, for a total of $540 million.
Some Comparisons
The impressive numbers for U.S. aid to Israel become even more so when they, and the attached conditions, are compared with other Middle East countries. The roughly $3.3 billion in annual aid compares with some $2 billion for Egypt, $225 million for Jordan, and $35 million for Lebanon. Aid for the Palestinian Authority (PA) is not earmarked, but has been running at about $100 million. Furthermore, aid to the PA is strictly controlled by the U.S. Agency for International Development, and goes for specific projects, mostly civil infrastructure projects such as water and sewers.
On the other hand, the U.S. gives Israel all of its economic aid directly in cash, with no accounting of how the funds are used. The military aid from the DOD budget is mostly for specific projects. Significantly however, considering current events, one of those projects was the development of the Merkava tank, which has been encircling and firing on Palestinian towns in the West Bank and Gaza.
The only condition the congressional foreign aid bill places on military aid to Israel is that about 75 percent of it has to be spent in the U.S. In contrast with other countries receiving military aid, however, who purchase through the DOD, Israel deals directly with U.S. companies, with no DOD review.
Special mention should also be made of the details of the Wye agreement. All of the $400 million going to the PA under the agreement is economic aid, whereas all of the $1.2 billion for Israel is for military projects and programs. These include $40 million for armored personnel carriers and $360 million for Apache helicopters, again significant considering current events.
Loans, The “Cranston Amendment,” and Loan Guarantees
Currently, Israel owes the U.S. government almost $3 billion in economic and military loans. Direct government-to-government loans are included in the above numbers for total aid, because repayment of several loans has been “waived” by the U.S. Israeli officials are fond of saying that Israel has never defaulted on a loan from the U.S. Technically, this is true. The CRS report, however, notes that from FY 1994 through FY 1998 $29 billion in U.S. loans have been waived for Israel. Therefore, it is reasonable to consider all loans to Israel the same as grants.
There seems to be much confusion about the so-called “Cranston Amendment,” named after the California senator who sponsored it in 1984. The amendment said, simply, that it is “the policy and intention” of the U.S. to give Israel economic aid “not less than” the amount Israel owes the U.S. in annual debt interest and principal payments.
Since official economic aid to Israel has always been considerably higher than the annual debt repayments, this is something of a non-issue. Furthermore, since the amendment is simply a statement of policy and intent, it may not be legally binding. In any event, although the amendment was included in every aid appropriations bill through FY 1998, it has not been repeated in the FY 1999, 2000, and 2001 appropriations bills.
The amount of U.S. government loan guarantees to Israel was not included in the above numbers, because they have not cost the U.S. any money (yet), although they are listed as “contingent liabilities” (that is, they would become liabilities to the U.S. should Israel default). Nevertheless, they unquestionably have been of tangible financial benefit to Israel. The major loan guarantees issued by Washington have been $600 million for housing between 1972 and 1990; the much publicized $10 billion for Soviet Jewish resettlement between 1992 and 1997; and some $5 billion for refinancing military loans commercially. Currently, the total U.S. contingent liability for Israeli loans is about $10 billion.
The Neeman Agreement
After Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu told Congress in 1996 that he wanted to reduce the level of U.S. economic aid to Israel, Israeli Finance Minister Yaacov Neeman met with members of Congress in January 1998 to negotiate the details. After much backing and forthing, they reached agreement that Israel’s then-$1.2 billion in economic aid would be decreased annually, beginning FY 1999, by $120 million, and the $1.8 billion in military aid would be increased by half that, or $60 million.
As a little-reported part of the deal, the amount of military aid that Israel was allowed to spend in Israel would be increased by $15 million per year. From FY 1988 through 1990 Israel was allowed to use $400 million of its $1.8 billion U.S. military aid in Israel. Beginning in FY 1991 that was increased to $475 million. As a result of the Neeman agreement, beginning in FY 1999 the aid appropriations bill gave the amount to be spent in Israel as a percentage of the total, rather than a stated amount. This maneuver helped hide from U.S. defense contractors the fact that the U.S. direct subsidy to their Israeli competitors was being increased by $15 million per year. For FY 2001 the stated percentage works out to $520 million. None of this is included in the above figures, because it does not represent a direct cost to the U.S. taxpayers. It is clearly an indirect cost, however, in terms of lost tax revenue and lost business for American companies. X
Shirl McArthur, a retired foreign service officer, is a consultant in the Washington, DC area.
SIDEBAR #1
Arab Americans Lose Ground in Congress
While Arab-American candidates broke even in the 2000 elections for the House of Representatives, a major loss was suffered in the Senate, where the only Arab-American senator, Michigan Republican Spencer Abraham, was narrowly and unexpectedly defeated by former Rep. Debbie Stabenow (D-MI). Stabenow had a neutral score in this magazine’s Congressional Report Card (August/September issue), with one positive and one negative mark, although she did sign the letter to President Clinton urging the delinking of the economic sanctions against Iraq from the military sanctions.
In the House, Arab-American Reps. John Baldacci (D-ME), Chris John (D-LA), Ray LaHood (R-IL), Nick Rahall (D-WV), and John Sununu (R-NH) all were re-elected. In addition, Republican newcomer Darrell Issa was easily elected in California. Issa’s victory offset the narrow defeat of Democrat Steve Danner in Missouri for the seat previously held by retiring Rep. Pat Danner (D-MO).
Other re-elected representatives sympathetic to issues important to Arab Americans include Reps. David Bonior (D-MI), John Conyers (D-MI), Tom Davis (R-VA), John Dingell (D-MI), Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), Bob Ney (R-OH), and Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA). Unfortunately, a champion of Arab-American issues was lost when Rep. Tom Campbell (R-CA) failed in his bid to unseat Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA).
Other congressional election news included the surprise defeat of Rep. Sam Gejdenson (D-CT), who was the ranking Democrat on the House International Relations Committee. Although he was widely considered a good friend of Israel, Gejdenson’s report card was only slightly negative, with no positive and one negative mark. He is expected to be replaced as ranking Democrat on the committee by Rep. Tom Lantos (D-CA), also considered a strong friend of Israel. A Holocaust survivor, Lantos might be expected to be sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians living under the heel of a brutal occupying power, but his report card showed one positive and two negative marks. Lantos also signed the letter to Clinton urging the president to “stand firm” in keeping the economic sanctions on Iraq. —S.M.
This Issue´s TOC
Current Issue
Back Issues
Contact Us
Today's News
WRMEA News
Activists' Corner
Resources
Subscribe
About WRMEA
Home
© Copyright 1995-2001, American Educational Trust. All Rights Reserved.
D
dballer
Guest
clusterfoxtrot said:
you did not do America justice by selling those flag shits!!!!
clusterfoxtrot
New member
FFactor:
I think you will be sadly disappointed. The bulk of Israel's overall military hardware is made inside the country. Besides buying from the US, they also have bought from France, Sweden, Russia, China, and a few other countries.
In addition, Israel has provided a myriad of improvements on our air platforms, that the US now incorporates for its own use.
I think you will be sadly disappointed. The bulk of Israel's overall military hardware is made inside the country. Besides buying from the US, they also have bought from France, Sweden, Russia, China, and a few other countries.
In addition, Israel has provided a myriad of improvements on our air platforms, that the US now incorporates for its own use.
clusterfoxtrot
New member
Funny part was it was an El Salvadoran guy that bought the stuff. I am sure I will see some guy mowing a lawn wearing a BF "SLip it In" shirt oneday.
Ffactor
New member
Since 1974, Israel has received nearly $80 billion in assistance, including three special aid packages. The first followed the signing of the Israel-Egypt peace treaty and Israel's withdrawal from the Sinai. The redeployment of Israeli forces and rebuilding of air bases in the Negev cost $5 billion. To partially compensate for this sacrifice, Israel received $3 billion ($2.2 billion of which was in the form of high-interest loans) in U.S. aid in 1979.
The second special package was approved in 1985, following a severe economic crisis in Israel, which sent inflation rates soaring as high as 445 percent. The $1.5 billion in emergency assistance-disbursed in two installments, in 1985 and 1986-was provided as part of Israel's economic stabilization program, which was implemented under the guidance of the U.S.-Israel Joint Economic Development Group (JEDG).
The most recent extraordinary package was approved in 1996 to help Israel fight terrorism. Israel is to receive a total of $100 million, divided equally between fiscal years 1996 and 1997.
Regular Economic and Military Assistance
Israel's economic aid changed from the Commodity Import Program (CIP), which provides funds to foreign nations for the purchase of U.S. commodities, to a direct cash transfer in 1979. In return, Israel provided the Agency for International Development with assurances that the dollar level of Israel's non-defense imports from the U.S. would exceed the level of economic assistance granted Israel in any given year. Thus, Israel guaranteed that U.S. suppliers would not be disadvantaged by the termination of Israel's CIP Program.
Starting with fiscal year 1987, Israel annually received $1.2 billion in all grant economic aid and $1.8 billion in all grant military assistance. In 1998, Israel offered to voluntarily reduce its dependence on U.S. economic aid. According to an agreement reached with the Clinton Administration and Congress, the $1.2 billion economic aid package will be reduced by $120 million each year so that it will be phased out in ten years. Half of the annual savings in economic assistance each year ($60 million) will be added to Israel's military aid package in recognition of its increased security needs. In 1999, Israel received $1.08 billion in economic aid and $1.86 billion in military aid. In 2000, economic aid is scheduled to be reduced to $949.1 million and military aid will increase to $1.92 billion.
For several years, most of Israel's economic aid went to pay off old debts. In 1984, foreign aid legislation included the Cranston Amendment (named after its Senate sponsor), which said the U.S. would provide Israel with economic assistance "not less than" the amount Israel owes the United States in annual debt service payments. Israel's remaining debt service on economic loans, according to the Congressional Research Service, is now approximately $350 million. Israel is still repaying the United States approximately $3 billion in direct economic and military loans.
Roughly 26 percent ($490 million) of what Israel receives in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) can be spent in Israel for military procurement. The remaining 74 percent is spent in the United States to generate profits and jobs. More than 1,000 companies in 47 states, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico have signed contracts worth billions of dollars through this program.
At the end of 1998, Israel requested an additional $1.2 billion in aid to fund moving troops and military installations out of the occupied territories as called for in the October 23, 1998, Wye agreement. This money was included in the FY2000 military grant aid package, but it appears to be the Administration's intention to disburse the $1.2 billion over three years (see Wye funding table).
Altogether, since 1949, Israel has received more than $90 billion in assistance. This includes the three special allocations, the $10 billion in loan guarantees (spread over five years) approved in 1992, and a variety of other smaller assistance-related accounts, such as refugee resettlement ($80 million annually from 1992-1998 and then reduced to $70 million in FY1999 and $60 million in FY2000 because of declining numbers of refugees) and cooperative development programs (a total of $186 million since 1981). The total does not include funds for joint military projects like the Arrow missile (for which Israel has received more than $628 million in grants since 1986), which are provided through the Defense budget.
Though the totals are impressive, the value of assistance to Israel has been eroded by inflation. While aid levels remained constant in total dollars from 1987 until 1999, the real value steadily declined. On the other side of the coin, Israel does receive aid on more favorable terms than other nations. For example, all economic aid is given directly to the Israeli government rather than allocated under a specific program. Also, starting in 1982, Israel began to receive all its economic aid in a lump sum early in the fiscal year instead of in quarterly installments as is done for other countries (for 2000, Israel received $1.37 billion of its military aid in the first month and the remaining $550 million was delayed for budgetary reasons). Israel is not required to provide an accounting of how the funds are used. Israel also receives offsets on FMS purchases (U.S. contractors agree to offset some of the cost of military equipment by buying components or materials from Israel).
See also the U.S. Assistance to Israel table.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Clyde Mark, Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance, (DC: Congressional Research Service, 1997-2000).
The second special package was approved in 1985, following a severe economic crisis in Israel, which sent inflation rates soaring as high as 445 percent. The $1.5 billion in emergency assistance-disbursed in two installments, in 1985 and 1986-was provided as part of Israel's economic stabilization program, which was implemented under the guidance of the U.S.-Israel Joint Economic Development Group (JEDG).
The most recent extraordinary package was approved in 1996 to help Israel fight terrorism. Israel is to receive a total of $100 million, divided equally between fiscal years 1996 and 1997.
Regular Economic and Military Assistance
Israel's economic aid changed from the Commodity Import Program (CIP), which provides funds to foreign nations for the purchase of U.S. commodities, to a direct cash transfer in 1979. In return, Israel provided the Agency for International Development with assurances that the dollar level of Israel's non-defense imports from the U.S. would exceed the level of economic assistance granted Israel in any given year. Thus, Israel guaranteed that U.S. suppliers would not be disadvantaged by the termination of Israel's CIP Program.
Starting with fiscal year 1987, Israel annually received $1.2 billion in all grant economic aid and $1.8 billion in all grant military assistance. In 1998, Israel offered to voluntarily reduce its dependence on U.S. economic aid. According to an agreement reached with the Clinton Administration and Congress, the $1.2 billion economic aid package will be reduced by $120 million each year so that it will be phased out in ten years. Half of the annual savings in economic assistance each year ($60 million) will be added to Israel's military aid package in recognition of its increased security needs. In 1999, Israel received $1.08 billion in economic aid and $1.86 billion in military aid. In 2000, economic aid is scheduled to be reduced to $949.1 million and military aid will increase to $1.92 billion.
For several years, most of Israel's economic aid went to pay off old debts. In 1984, foreign aid legislation included the Cranston Amendment (named after its Senate sponsor), which said the U.S. would provide Israel with economic assistance "not less than" the amount Israel owes the United States in annual debt service payments. Israel's remaining debt service on economic loans, according to the Congressional Research Service, is now approximately $350 million. Israel is still repaying the United States approximately $3 billion in direct economic and military loans.
Roughly 26 percent ($490 million) of what Israel receives in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) can be spent in Israel for military procurement. The remaining 74 percent is spent in the United States to generate profits and jobs. More than 1,000 companies in 47 states, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico have signed contracts worth billions of dollars through this program.
At the end of 1998, Israel requested an additional $1.2 billion in aid to fund moving troops and military installations out of the occupied territories as called for in the October 23, 1998, Wye agreement. This money was included in the FY2000 military grant aid package, but it appears to be the Administration's intention to disburse the $1.2 billion over three years (see Wye funding table).
Altogether, since 1949, Israel has received more than $90 billion in assistance. This includes the three special allocations, the $10 billion in loan guarantees (spread over five years) approved in 1992, and a variety of other smaller assistance-related accounts, such as refugee resettlement ($80 million annually from 1992-1998 and then reduced to $70 million in FY1999 and $60 million in FY2000 because of declining numbers of refugees) and cooperative development programs (a total of $186 million since 1981). The total does not include funds for joint military projects like the Arrow missile (for which Israel has received more than $628 million in grants since 1986), which are provided through the Defense budget.
Though the totals are impressive, the value of assistance to Israel has been eroded by inflation. While aid levels remained constant in total dollars from 1987 until 1999, the real value steadily declined. On the other side of the coin, Israel does receive aid on more favorable terms than other nations. For example, all economic aid is given directly to the Israeli government rather than allocated under a specific program. Also, starting in 1982, Israel began to receive all its economic aid in a lump sum early in the fiscal year instead of in quarterly installments as is done for other countries (for 2000, Israel received $1.37 billion of its military aid in the first month and the remaining $550 million was delayed for budgetary reasons). Israel is not required to provide an accounting of how the funds are used. Israel also receives offsets on FMS purchases (U.S. contractors agree to offset some of the cost of military equipment by buying components or materials from Israel).
See also the U.S. Assistance to Israel table.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Clyde Mark, Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance, (DC: Congressional Research Service, 1997-2000).
Ffactor
New member
Prior to the 1970's the Arab nations got more from us.
Cluster-
I totally disagree with that unless they have a license to manufacture black hawks, f-15's and m-16's. If they do I would consider it a breach of national security.
Hopefully some of the info I'm posting will support my feelings.
Cluster-
I totally disagree with that unless they have a license to manufacture black hawks, f-15's and m-16's. If they do I would consider it a breach of national security.
Hopefully some of the info I'm posting will support my feelings.
D
dballer
Guest
clusterfoxtrot said:
you sold a "Slip it in" shirt???
aww man.. that is bad!!!
Ffactor
New member
Our Beachhead in the Middle East
Since Israel's declaration of independence in 1948 it has been involved in five wars with neighboring states. Its vulnerable location -- bordered by Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan, and within missile distance, of Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia -- has prompted the U.S. to maintain a commitment, since the Truman administration, to "safeguard Israel's security and well-being" and cultivate its "qualitative edge." In other words, we help make Israel's military technology far superior to that of any of its neighbors'. This also, incidentally, helps the U.S. "secure access to [Middle Eastern] energy resources."
Barely larger than New Jersey, Israel is nonetheless the fourth-largest recipient of weapons from the U.S. -- since 1993, it has received close to $10 billion in weapons alone -- as well as engaging in joint military exercises, weapon research and development programs, and exchanges of military scientists and engineers with the United States.
The Hawk stops aircraft dead House-to-house in Hebron
To help fund its operations, Israel has since 1986 received an annual U.S. allotment of $1.8 billion in foreign military financing (FMF), dedicated to weapon procurement. Israel is also the only country allowed to spend $475 million of its FMF each year to develop and buy weapons domestically. And Israel's due for a raise: The 1999 Omnibus Bill allots the country an additional $6 million next year for procurement and also raises the cap on Israel's own weapons development by $15 million.
It's quite a deal, considering that the U.S. has indirectly contributed to Israel's 1993-1995 ranking as the world's seventh-largest arms supplier. But this has not gone unnoticed or uncriticized in the U.S.; Israel is notorious for selling weapons to countries such as China and apartheid-era South Africa while the U.S. and much of the world imposed sanctions against them for human-rights abuses or strategic threats.
The U.S. also fears that Israel's close partnership and resulting knowledge of sophisticated military technology is propelling still-secret American weapons into the wrong hands. The U.S. Arms Export Control Act (AECA) specifically states that no country may sell U.S. "defense articles or service" to a third country (known as unauthorized retransfer) without U.S. approval. From 1975 to 1995, 17 reports went to Congress concerning so-called end-use violations, seven of which pertained to Israel. Yet the U.S. has continually backed down from taking action against Israel, primarily due to enormous pressure from Israel's well-organized congressional lobby. Also, according to Dov Zakheim, former deputy undersecretary of defense under Reagan, "They have never been caught red-handed. It is reasonably safe to say that Israel is not foolish enough to transfer stuff that can be found out."
Two of Israel's alleged end-use violations involve "selling modified versions of our weapons" or "sending technicians familiar with our equipment" to other countries, Zakheim says. In one case, Israel allegedly sold a modified version of the Patriot missile to China in 1992, which led the State Department to send an investigative team to Israel. The team found no evidence to support the claims.
In another case, there is the possibility that the PL-8 missiles China made and then sold to Iraq have U.S. Sidewinder technology on board -- which Israel may have passed to China in the sale of its own, possibly Sidewinder-enhanced, missiles.
More recently, tensions over the Arrow land-to-air ballistic missile defense system have developed, with rumors of a possible sale to India of certain components of that system; this would violate U.S. sanctions against India for its nuclear tests. But the Arrow case is especially sensitive because just two of the missile's five components were joint Israeli-American creations, while the other three were developed unilaterally by Israel, including the missile's Green Pine radar. Nonetheless, American pride gets in the way of resolving the conflict: Duncan Hunter, a professor of international security at American University in Washington, D.C., told Defense News that "to make the case that Arrow components are exclusively Israeli [is] not well received in the Pentagon or State Department."
U.S. arms sales in the Clinton years
Direct government sales
Government-approved sales
(scale in millions of dollars)
Israel has received 14 Bell Textron AH-1E attack helicopters (October 1995, under the Excess Defense Articles (EDA) program, free), software for its F-15s from Boeing (also free through the EDA), 17-Nov-95 two Hughes AN/TPQ-37 Firefinder counterbattery radars (November 1995), and 2,640 Hughes TOW-2A/B anti-tank missiles. United Technologies' Sikorsky division chipped in 15 Sikorsky UH-60L Black Hawk helicopters (April 1997, $53 million), while United Defense unloaded 28 M-577 command APCs.
Israel has also received a veritable cornucopia of arms from Lockheed Martin in the 1990s, including 301 Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) tactical rocket pods and related support (October 1997 FMS, $30 million), a passel of Hellfire II anti-tank missiles (April 1995, DCS, $45 million), and 121 free Martin Marietta Walleye missile tubes, courtesy of the Pentagon's EDA program.
These arms sales continue in spite of criticisms of Israel's human-rights record (particularly toward the Palestinians) and its relations with Lebanon. According to the U.S. State Department's annual report on human rights, Israel's "High Court of Justice heard 46 abuse-related cases -- almost all asking for an injunction to halt the torture of a specific individual." The Israeli government may legally use force during interrogations and detain prisoners for periods of time without explanation or allowing contact with lawyers and family.
Israel also continues to bulldoze Palestinian homes when those homes lack construction permits, which Israel never gives them, according to the Palestinian Committee on Land and the Environment. Israel, the committee says, has demolished 700 homes since 1993.
Tensions with Lebanon continue along with sporadic fighting, shelling, and killings of noncombatant civilians on both sides.
But the U.S. remains bound to Israel. As Bob Satloff, executive director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, states, "We are getting a good bargain and it is a fairly reasonable investment in Israel's security. It helps to ensure allied security."
-- Suzie Larsen
Flags courtesy of World Flag Database
Photos by Esaias Baitel/Gamma Liaison (left), Heidi Levine/Sipa (right)
About Us Discuss Archives Site Map MoJo World Subscribe Advertise Search
All letters to the editor are for publication and may be edited for space and clarity. The MoJo Wire and MOTHER JONES are projects of the Foundation for National Progress, a nonprofit 501(c)3 organization, founded in 1975 to educate and empower people to work toward progressive change. All Rights Reserved.
Since Israel's declaration of independence in 1948 it has been involved in five wars with neighboring states. Its vulnerable location -- bordered by Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan, and within missile distance, of Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia -- has prompted the U.S. to maintain a commitment, since the Truman administration, to "safeguard Israel's security and well-being" and cultivate its "qualitative edge." In other words, we help make Israel's military technology far superior to that of any of its neighbors'. This also, incidentally, helps the U.S. "secure access to [Middle Eastern] energy resources."
Barely larger than New Jersey, Israel is nonetheless the fourth-largest recipient of weapons from the U.S. -- since 1993, it has received close to $10 billion in weapons alone -- as well as engaging in joint military exercises, weapon research and development programs, and exchanges of military scientists and engineers with the United States.
The Hawk stops aircraft dead House-to-house in Hebron
To help fund its operations, Israel has since 1986 received an annual U.S. allotment of $1.8 billion in foreign military financing (FMF), dedicated to weapon procurement. Israel is also the only country allowed to spend $475 million of its FMF each year to develop and buy weapons domestically. And Israel's due for a raise: The 1999 Omnibus Bill allots the country an additional $6 million next year for procurement and also raises the cap on Israel's own weapons development by $15 million.
It's quite a deal, considering that the U.S. has indirectly contributed to Israel's 1993-1995 ranking as the world's seventh-largest arms supplier. But this has not gone unnoticed or uncriticized in the U.S.; Israel is notorious for selling weapons to countries such as China and apartheid-era South Africa while the U.S. and much of the world imposed sanctions against them for human-rights abuses or strategic threats.
The U.S. also fears that Israel's close partnership and resulting knowledge of sophisticated military technology is propelling still-secret American weapons into the wrong hands. The U.S. Arms Export Control Act (AECA) specifically states that no country may sell U.S. "defense articles or service" to a third country (known as unauthorized retransfer) without U.S. approval. From 1975 to 1995, 17 reports went to Congress concerning so-called end-use violations, seven of which pertained to Israel. Yet the U.S. has continually backed down from taking action against Israel, primarily due to enormous pressure from Israel's well-organized congressional lobby. Also, according to Dov Zakheim, former deputy undersecretary of defense under Reagan, "They have never been caught red-handed. It is reasonably safe to say that Israel is not foolish enough to transfer stuff that can be found out."
Two of Israel's alleged end-use violations involve "selling modified versions of our weapons" or "sending technicians familiar with our equipment" to other countries, Zakheim says. In one case, Israel allegedly sold a modified version of the Patriot missile to China in 1992, which led the State Department to send an investigative team to Israel. The team found no evidence to support the claims.
In another case, there is the possibility that the PL-8 missiles China made and then sold to Iraq have U.S. Sidewinder technology on board -- which Israel may have passed to China in the sale of its own, possibly Sidewinder-enhanced, missiles.
More recently, tensions over the Arrow land-to-air ballistic missile defense system have developed, with rumors of a possible sale to India of certain components of that system; this would violate U.S. sanctions against India for its nuclear tests. But the Arrow case is especially sensitive because just two of the missile's five components were joint Israeli-American creations, while the other three were developed unilaterally by Israel, including the missile's Green Pine radar. Nonetheless, American pride gets in the way of resolving the conflict: Duncan Hunter, a professor of international security at American University in Washington, D.C., told Defense News that "to make the case that Arrow components are exclusively Israeli [is] not well received in the Pentagon or State Department."
U.S. arms sales in the Clinton years
Direct government sales
Government-approved sales
(scale in millions of dollars)
Israel has received 14 Bell Textron AH-1E attack helicopters (October 1995, under the Excess Defense Articles (EDA) program, free), software for its F-15s from Boeing (also free through the EDA), 17-Nov-95 two Hughes AN/TPQ-37 Firefinder counterbattery radars (November 1995), and 2,640 Hughes TOW-2A/B anti-tank missiles. United Technologies' Sikorsky division chipped in 15 Sikorsky UH-60L Black Hawk helicopters (April 1997, $53 million), while United Defense unloaded 28 M-577 command APCs.
Israel has also received a veritable cornucopia of arms from Lockheed Martin in the 1990s, including 301 Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) tactical rocket pods and related support (October 1997 FMS, $30 million), a passel of Hellfire II anti-tank missiles (April 1995, DCS, $45 million), and 121 free Martin Marietta Walleye missile tubes, courtesy of the Pentagon's EDA program.
These arms sales continue in spite of criticisms of Israel's human-rights record (particularly toward the Palestinians) and its relations with Lebanon. According to the U.S. State Department's annual report on human rights, Israel's "High Court of Justice heard 46 abuse-related cases -- almost all asking for an injunction to halt the torture of a specific individual." The Israeli government may legally use force during interrogations and detain prisoners for periods of time without explanation or allowing contact with lawyers and family.
Israel also continues to bulldoze Palestinian homes when those homes lack construction permits, which Israel never gives them, according to the Palestinian Committee on Land and the Environment. Israel, the committee says, has demolished 700 homes since 1993.
Tensions with Lebanon continue along with sporadic fighting, shelling, and killings of noncombatant civilians on both sides.
But the U.S. remains bound to Israel. As Bob Satloff, executive director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, states, "We are getting a good bargain and it is a fairly reasonable investment in Israel's security. It helps to ensure allied security."
-- Suzie Larsen
Flags courtesy of World Flag Database
Photos by Esaias Baitel/Gamma Liaison (left), Heidi Levine/Sipa (right)
About Us Discuss Archives Site Map MoJo World Subscribe Advertise Search
All letters to the editor are for publication and may be edited for space and clarity. The MoJo Wire and MOTHER JONES are projects of the Foundation for National Progress, a nonprofit 501(c)3 organization, founded in 1975 to educate and empower people to work toward progressive change. All Rights Reserved.
clusterfoxtrot
New member
A breach of national security to manufacture M-16s? Mattel and General Motors used to make them.
Here's a brief history of Israeli aramament:
Boeing F-15 (US)
Lockheed F-16 (US)
Lavi (Israel)
Nesher (Israel)
Kfir (Israel)
Dassault Mirage (French)
With the exception of the B-17 and old P-51 Mustangs, US aviation platforms weren't even introduced to Israel until the mid-60s
They currently use a mix of Apache and Blackhawk (US) and Eurocopter (Joint European) helicopters.
Their UAVs and satellites are 100% Israeli designed and developed.
Their main battle tank, the Merkava Mark 4, is Israeli manufactured with US, Israeli, and several other country's components.
Their submarines are German built.
Almost all of their surface fleet is built in Israel.
Here's a brief history of Israeli aramament:
Boeing F-15 (US)
Lockheed F-16 (US)
Lavi (Israel)
Nesher (Israel)
Kfir (Israel)
Dassault Mirage (French)
With the exception of the B-17 and old P-51 Mustangs, US aviation platforms weren't even introduced to Israel until the mid-60s
They currently use a mix of Apache and Blackhawk (US) and Eurocopter (Joint European) helicopters.
Their UAVs and satellites are 100% Israeli designed and developed.
Their main battle tank, the Merkava Mark 4, is Israeli manufactured with US, Israeli, and several other country's components.
Their submarines are German built.
Almost all of their surface fleet is built in Israel.
clusterfoxtrot
New member
What the hell was I supposed to do with a 15+ yo "Slip it In" shirt that a chimp could wear? I guess I could have had it framed and put it up between the Dali and the Erte lithos. LOL. Hey...maybe the little beaner will get some more wear out of it.
Ffactor
New member
Egypt, a strategic ally of the United States, is the second-largest recipient of US military aid, after Israel, receiving $1.3 billion a year in military aid. . . . About 18,000 US soldiers took part in the last manoeuvres. This year, some 14,000 American troops are expected to take part. . . . On Aug. 19, Egypt received four F-16 jets from Lockheed Martin, the first batch of its six orders of F-16s ... .
Yes, Egypt does get a lot in military aid....but not as much as Israel.
Yes, Egypt does get a lot in military aid....but not as much as Israel.
Ffactor
New member
19 February 2001
The government of Israel has signed a letter of offer and acceptance with the United States Department of Defense for the purchase of nine Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow helicopters, described as being able to "rapidly detect, classify, prioritize and engage stationary or moving enemy targets at standoff ranges in nearly all weather environments." The total value of the contract—including aircraft, ordnance, spares, training and support—is expected to approach US $500 million.
—Boeing Press Release, 19 February 2001
19 January 2001
"Despite reluctance from some on Capitol Hill to start full-scale production, President Clinton today promised Israel that it would be the first country to purchase the United States' most advanced fighter aircraft, the F-22 Raptor. Even had he not already lifted almost every U.S. arms export barrier, the promise to sell the radar-evading, stealth aircraft to Israel would solidify Clinton's legacy as the most arms export happy President in U.S. history."
—Arms Trader Insider #39 (published by The Council for a Livable World)
The government of Israel has signed a letter of offer and acceptance with the United States Department of Defense for the purchase of nine Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow helicopters, described as being able to "rapidly detect, classify, prioritize and engage stationary or moving enemy targets at standoff ranges in nearly all weather environments." The total value of the contract—including aircraft, ordnance, spares, training and support—is expected to approach US $500 million.
—Boeing Press Release, 19 February 2001
19 January 2001
"Despite reluctance from some on Capitol Hill to start full-scale production, President Clinton today promised Israel that it would be the first country to purchase the United States' most advanced fighter aircraft, the F-22 Raptor. Even had he not already lifted almost every U.S. arms export barrier, the promise to sell the radar-evading, stealth aircraft to Israel would solidify Clinton's legacy as the most arms export happy President in U.S. history."
—Arms Trader Insider #39 (published by The Council for a Livable World)
clusterfoxtrot
New member
FF...where are you going with this?
And before long we will be fighting egypt and those F-16's because sooner or later we will be fighting Iraq and egypt won't like that.
If we removed the jews from the middle east, who would the palestinians hate next? Who would hate them?
There will always be fighting, killing etc in that place thanks to our arab friends.
If we removed the jews from the middle east, who would the palestinians hate next? Who would hate them?
There will always be fighting, killing etc in that place thanks to our arab friends.
clusterfoxtrot
New member
It's kind of hard to make peace when you have suicide bombers slipping through the line and making their way into the lunchroom of schools, isn't it?
What is Egypt doing with all of the money? We certainly haven't seen the dollar for dollar return that we have from Israel.
What is Egypt doing with all of the money? We certainly haven't seen the dollar for dollar return that we have from Israel.
Ffactor
New member
US attaches conditions to Palestinian aid
The House of Representatives in Washington has overwhelmingly passed a measure cutting virtually all American aid to the Palestinians, if they declare statehood unilaterally.
The bill was passed by three-hundred-and-eighty-five votes to twenty-seven, and will now to the Senate for consideration there.
One of the bill's sponsors the Democratic Representative, Jerrold Nadler said it showed the United States would not support any Palestinian entity that was not created through peaceful negotiation. Earlier this month, the Palestinians agreed to delay a declaration of statehood for two months while talks with the Israelis continued.
Negotiations between the two sides remain deadlocked on a number of issues -- in particular the status of Jerusalem.
From the newsroom of the BBC World Service
The House of Representatives in Washington has overwhelmingly passed a measure cutting virtually all American aid to the Palestinians, if they declare statehood unilaterally.
The bill was passed by three-hundred-and-eighty-five votes to twenty-seven, and will now to the Senate for consideration there.
One of the bill's sponsors the Democratic Representative, Jerrold Nadler said it showed the United States would not support any Palestinian entity that was not created through peaceful negotiation. Earlier this month, the Palestinians agreed to delay a declaration of statehood for two months while talks with the Israelis continued.
Negotiations between the two sides remain deadlocked on a number of issues -- in particular the status of Jerusalem.
From the newsroom of the BBC World Service
