Anti-Esrogen Article

[rudiratlos]

chrysin is able to inhibit aromatase in vitro...not in vivo

After oral administration to immature rats at a dose of 50 mg/kg body weight, which considerably exceeds amounts found in daily human diets, neither aromatase-inhibiting nonestrogenic flavonoids, such as chrysin, nor estrogenic flavonoids, such as naringenin and apigenin, induced uterine growth or reduced estrogen- or androgen-induced uterine growth. The inability of flavonoids to inhibit aromatase and, consequently, uterine growth in short-term tests may be due to their relatively poor absorption and/or bioavailability.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11595503&dopt=Abstract

 

[Nelson Montana]

Silent Good points, but again, it depends on the compound. (As you said) For example, water soluable vitamins can not reach toxic levels because you'll just excrete them in the urine. But fat soluable vitamins and minerals can be toxic in high dosages.

ruderatios: There have been pleny of studies on the effectivness of Chrysin, but you're right in that it isn't absorbed well. Still, 500 mgs seems to do the trick (more than orginally suggested) and the addition of Bioperine increases the absorbtion. There's also some evidence that Chrysin is better absorbed in the presense of fat. (Not sure why)

jbold: I understand your point but you have to make some distinquishes. When you say you want more test, you'll take more test,well...that is very different from increasing your free T -- be it juiced or natural. There's a consquence to taking endogenous testosterone esters. Not that I have anything against it. Some of my best friends are testosterone esters. But increasing T naturally is also very attractive to me. And it's true, a supplement can only put you in the physiological level range, but doesn't it make sense to be in the HIGH range instead of the low? That's what a good supplement will do.

Hey, I've been at this even longer than you and in my books I denounce dozens of bogus supplements. But there are some good ones, and they are the one's I've endorsed all along without making a nickel in profit. And people know they work! So I think it's kind of silly to suggest that if I have a personal interest in a product it's no longer valid.


To each his own. But a lot of people like to take advantage of every angle they can. Not to do so, doesn't make sense to me. But that's me.

 

[mt]

I am very skeptical with regard to supplements especially those that claim to manipulate hormones. I've wasted tons of dough on supplements that were worthless. Still, I'm a sucker and I'm always looking for an edge and will give something a try. I've really felt a difference using BAC's Avena Sativa, something which I never would have heard of or tried if it wasn't for Nelson. And at five bucks for about a month's supply it's a steal. Many may not like the powdered form even though it brings the cost way down but if you mix it in a shake (which I'm sure most of you drink everyday) you don't even taste it.

 

[bigsonrising]

GARBAGE!!!!

Our last group of researchers decided to stop fooling around and administer chrysin to mice both orally and via injection to see if chrysin effectively reduced serum estrogen levels. They had 10 mice in 4 groups: one receiving nothing, one taking chrysin orally at 5mg/kg, one receiving an intraperitoneal injection with the vehicle solution only, and one receiving chrysin at 5mg/kg in the vehicle solution via an intraperitoneal injection. The mice received the appropriate intervention for 30 days, and then blood samples were drawn. A radio immunoassay kit was then used to determine serum estrogen levels.


Guess what? They found that estrogen levels were the SAME in ALL of the groups.(3)


What went wrong? How can chrysin work in a petri dish, but not in an animal? We can only hypothesize, but it is easy to imagine that somewhere between chrysin being absorbed intact, reaching the cell without being metabolized, entering the cell (chrysin’s poor solubility could affect this), and inhibiting aromatase, that something could, and does, go wrong.

Another upsetting finding from this study was the chrysin treated rats were noticeably FATTER than the controls. How could this be? One possibility is that the chrysin disrupted thyroid function. T4 to T3 conversion (a key step in thyroid hormone metabolism) is controlled by an enzyme called deiodinase and this enzyme has been shown to be inhibited by chrysin.(4) Another possibility is an inhibition in testosterone production through disruption of 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (another enzyme shown to be disrupted by chrysin).(5) Why these two enzyme systems would be affected, but not aromatase, would be strange

References:

1. Kellis, JT and Vickery, LE: Inhibition of Human Estrogen Synthetase (Aromatase) by Flavones. Science 225 (1984) 1032-34.

2. Campbell, DR and Kurzer, MS: Flavonoid Inhibition of Aromatase Enzyme Activity in Human Preadipocytes. Journal of Steroid Biochemistry and Molecular Biology 46 (1993) 381-388.

3. Shibayama, J, et al. The Oral Bioavailability and In Vivo Activity of Chrysin in Exercising and Non-Exercising Mice Submitted for publication.

4. Koehrle, J, et.al. Iodothyronine deiodinase is inhibited by plant flavonoids, Prog Clin Biol Res 213 (1986) 359-371

5. Le Bail, J.C., et.al. Aromatase and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase inhibition by flavonoids, Cancer Letters, 133 (1998) 101-106

 

[Singleton]

...

I'm not so crazy about Daidzein for the very reason it's "supposed" to be effective. The whole concept of a weaker estrogen taking up the estrogen receptors just doesn't fly with me. I believe it's the reason why Clomid acts in a PRO-estrogen manner in many people. (weepiness, loss of libido, etc) The reason isn't entirely understood but the results are irrufutable. ...

No wonder I always cry when I eat tofu!

 

[jboldman]

Nelson, i like this new reasonable you, are you taking some kind of anxiolytics?

My point was not that YOU were not telling the gospel truth, it is just the appearance of conflict of interest is enough in and of itself to sometimes affect credibility. I am certainly willing to give YOU the benefit of the doubt. I also agree that if one does not want to venture over the the dark side of illegal and sometime prescription drugs and is interested in maximizing their individual potential supplements can be of benefit. I just see some naive consumers out there that think with all the hype they can achieve the same results with XXXX that they can with 500mg of test or whatever and it just ain't so!

jb

jbold: I understand your point but you have to make some distinquishes. When you say you want more test, you'll take more test,well...that is very different from increasing your free T -- be it juiced or natural. There's a consquence to taking endogenous testosterone esters. Not that I have anything against it. Some of my best friends are testosterone esters. But increasing T naturally is also very attractive to me. And it's true, a supplement can only put you in the physiological level range, but doesn't it make sense to be in the HIGH range instead of the low? That's what a good supplement will do.

Hey, I've been at this even longer than you and in my books I denounce dozens of bogus supplements. But there are some good ones, and they are the one's I've endorsed all along without making a nickel in profit. And people know they work! So I think it's kind of silly to suggest that if I have a personal interest in a product it's no longer valid.


To each his own. But a lot of people like to take advantage of every angle they can. Not to do so, doesn't make sense to me. But that's me. [/B]

 

[Nelson Montana]

Nelson, i like this new reasonable you, are you taking some kind of anxiolytics?

My point was not that YOU were not telling the gospel truth, it is just the appearance of conflict of interest is enough in and of itself to sometimes affect credibility. I am certainly willing to give YOU the benefit of the doubt. I also agree that if one does not want to venture over the the dark side of illegal and sometime prescription drugs and is interested in maximizing their individual potential supplements can be of benefit. I just see some naive consumers out there that think with all the hype they can achieve the same results with XXXX that they can with 500mg of test or whatever and it just ain't so!

jb

Nah, just mellowing in my old age. Hey, I'm the first guy to say, these supplements aren't going to produce gains like steroids. That's why when I agreed to help in their development I took a different angle. The approach was similar to my approach to steroids in general -- make the most of what you can without them, THEN add them when needed. And the Post-Cycle" produt was developed with the health of the steroid user in mind, cause...well, I'm a health guy. (Old fashioned in that regard) Now, I know some guys don't give a shit about health, but I'm going to offer what I think is a good product. I'm not going to sell some bogus crap and put in in a plastic syringe to make it look "scary." I HATE THAT SHIT!!! And I think it shows that the people doing that have no intent of offering anything of value.

BTW, "Post-Cycle" does have a cool picture of a syringe on the label, but that's just to suggest who would use it -- not to imply it should be put in one. : )

bigon: All the test I've seen on Chrysin were done on humans. I'm not familiar with the mouse studies. Also, I have verified the existing blood test results by conducting one on myself and my e did drop. So I'm convinced -- more so than I am about other nutrients I would still recommend via good findings and imperical evidence but don't have concrete proof of efficacy.

 

[liftsiron]

Nah, just mellowing in my old age. Hey, I'm the first guy to say, these supplements aren't going to produce gains like steroids. That's why when I agreed to help in their development I took a different angle. The approach was similar to my approach to steroids in general -- make the most of what you can without them, THEN add them when needed. And the Post-Cycle" produt was developed with the health of the steroid user in mind, cause...well, I'm a health guy. (Old fashioned in that regard) Now, I know some guys don't give a shit about health, but I'm going to offer what I think is a good product. I'm not going to sell some bogus crap and put in in a plastic syringe to make it look "scary." I HATE THAT SHIT!!! And I think it shows that the people doing that have no intent of offering anything of value.

I'll say it good to see a more mellow Nelson, I've been in a few minor flame wars with Nelson in the past, but I'll go on record as saying that I don't believe that Nelson Montana would endorse a product that he doesn't believe in. Nelson needs to make a living as we all do, but I for one have never seen Nelson make outlandish claims about any product.

 

[pharmguy]

Natural substances tend to find a balanced "cut-off spot." Drugs don't.

This is a very shaky statement with no boundaries, and can be manipulated anyway one wants it to be.

-Testosterone is a natural substance.
-marijuana is natural.
-cocaine is natural.
-many prohormones are not natural, yet they fit the "cut-off spot" profile you mentioned
-Hydrochloric acid is natural too
-opium is natural
-cathinone is natural, great for weight loss in a junky like way

I could go on with this list.......

My point, "natural" is a marketing tool and a word that people use to convince themselves and others that what they are using is okay when theythe user themself doesn't think what he is using is okay.

Me, I use AAS, the ones I use are not natural, if they were it wouldn't matter.

 

[Nelson Montana]

This is a very shaky statement with no boundaries, and can be manipulated anyway one wants it to be.

-Testosterone is a natural substance.
-marijuana is natural.
-cocaine is natural.
-many prohormones are not natural, yet they fit the "cut-off spot" profile you mentioned
-Hydrochloric acid is natural too
-opium is natural
-cathinone is natural, great for weight loss in a junky like way

I could go on with this list.......

My point, "natural" is a marketing tool and a word that people use to convince themselves and others that what they are using is okay when theythe user themself doesn't think what he is using is okay.

Me, I use AAS, the ones I use are not natural, if they were it wouldn't matter.

All true. I admit, I over generalized with this one. I think "in general" the point is valid, but , of course, there are many exceptions. I've brought this point up myself. There are "natural" drugs i.e caffeine. The only part of your post I'd disagree with is the pro-hormones issue. The statement that they're only effective to a point is due to the fact that they're very weak drugs in regard to their efficay, but I don't doubt that the deleterious side effects will increase with the extent of the dosage.