American wealth distribution - is this a problem

[MattTheSkywalker]

Re: Re: Re: Re: American wealth distribution - is this a problem

How many are living pay check to pay check each week?

I have three in the top 10%. They are older have years of earning, saving and planning behind them.

Almost all of the remainder (9) are living week to week.

 

[vixenbabe]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: American wealth distribution - is this a problem

I have three in the top 10%. They are older have years of earning, saving and planning behind them.

Almost all of the remainder (9) are living week to week.

Blows me away.....I have friends and clients who are in the same boat with your 9. I'd do without before I allowed myself to be in this class of "earner's".

History does have a way of repeating itself.... So say's my daddy, a "great" depression child himself.

 

[GinNJuice]

The thread is about the social consequences of putting a lot of money in a few hands.

You can't seem to get avoid the idea of giving money to people....

..... "putting ......money in a few hands"


Most of those people earned that money, it's not like the government choose a few people and said, "Hey, I'm gonna give you a shit load of money and I won't give any to the other losers"

(Almost)Everyone has an opportunity to better their situation

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

You can't seem to get avoid the idea of giving money to people....

..... "putting ......money in a few hands"


Most of those people earned that money, it's not like the government choose a few people and said, "Hey, I'm gonna give you a shit load of money and I won't give any to the other losers"

(Almost)Everyone has an opportunity to better their situation

Note - I am not arguing for giving anything to anyone. Where in the thread of 112 posts did I advocate any of that. Show me where I advocated redistribution. Don't put words in my mouth. Learn how to think, not to jump to conclusions.

Social consequences. Another great depression? I say yes. In fact, it has only been delayed by the presence of public assistance.

When the next Great Depression comes, it will be worse. This one will feature the collapse of a credit-driven economy too. Should be fun, especially if accompanied by revolution.

 

[Doktor Bollix]

Some international comparisons. Be warned: this contains numbers.

Gross Domestic Product per head in America is second among OECD countries, based on the purchasing power parity standard (PPP) in US dollars according to the OECD statistics:

2001
1 Luxembourg 49,800
2 United States 36,500
3 Ireland 31,400
4 Norway 31,100
5 Switzerland 31,000 a
6 Iceland 30,400
7 Denmark 29,900
8 Canada 28,800
9 Netherlands 28,600
10 Austria 27,800
11 Belgium 26,900
12 Australia 26,600
13 Germany 26,500
13 Japan 26,500
15 Italy 26,100
16 Finland 25,900
17 Sweden 25,600
18 United Kingdom 25,400
19 France 25,100
20 Spain 21,000
21 New Zealand 20,700
22 Portugal 18,700
23 Greece 17,800
24 South Korea 15,700
25 Czech Republic 15,100
26 Hungary 13,200
27 Slovakia 12,300
28 Poland 9,900
29 Mexico 9,300
30 Turkey 6,000 a

http://www.hhs.se/personal/suzuki/o-English/ne04.html

So, very nice. We are up there at the top with all the nice prosperous little western European democracies like Switzerland and Norway and all.

The measure of amount of inequality in the income distribution of a country is called the Gini coefficient.

1 Mexico 52.6
2 Turkey 49.1
3 Italy 34.5
4 United States 34.4
5 Greece 33.6
6 Ireland 32.4
6 United Kingdom 32.4
8 Australia 30.5
9 Canada 28.5
10 Hungary 28.3
11 Germany 28.2
12 France 27.8
13 Belgium 27.2
14 Switzerland 26.9
15 Austria 26.1
16 Japan 26.0
17 Norway 25.6
18 Netherlands 25.5
19 Sweden 23.0
20 Finland 22.8
21 Denmark 21.7

http://www.hhs.se/personal/suzuki/o-English/ne08.html

America's is not that bad but we're up the list and the countries at the top suck. Mexico and Turkey. Everything is owned by a small number of mega-rich people as a feudal fiefdom and everyone else has jack shit, or Italy where the North is very rich but the South is so poor that generations of people were forced to go live in New Jersey.

The big problem for America is that the economy ain't going anywhere, we were towards the bottom in 2001, number 19 for economic growth. The ranking probably improves a bit next year when the 2002 statistics come out, but only because we dragged a few other economies down with us in 2002, like Ireland.

2001
1 Ireland 6.6%
2 Luxembourg 5.1%
3 Greece 4.1%
4 Hungary 3.8%
5 Czech Republic 3.6%
6 Slovakia 3.3%
7 Iceland 3.0%
7 South Korea 3.0%
9 Spain 2.8%
10 Australia 2.4%
11 United Kingdom 2.2%
12 France 2.0%
13 Portugal 1.9%
14 Italy 1.8%
14 New Zealand 1.8%
16 Canada 1.5%
17 Norway 1.4%
18 Switzerland 1.3% a
19 Sweden 1.2%
19 United States 1.2%
21 Netherlands 1.1%
21 Poland 1.1%
23 Austria 1.0%
23 Belgium 1.0%
25 Denmark 0.9%
26 Finland 0.7%
27 Germany 0.6%
28 Mexico -0.3%
29 Japan -0.4%
30 Turkey -7.4% a

http://www.hhs.se/personal/suzuki/o-English/ne03.html

Therefore it's not really possible to say that wealth inequality is bad. The most unequal countries do suck and that's a fact. But the fastest growing countries are fairly unequal too, probably because there's a small number of movers and shakers who are actually making the money and everyone else is just spending it. Ultimately you either believe a rising tide lifts all ships or you don't.

 

[FreakMonster]

Re: Re: Re: American wealth distribution - is this a problem

For every person that "gets ahead", a ton are left behind, because there are only so many dollars available. This has real consequences.

I completely disagree with that statement. They are not left behind, they generally make choices that lead to such a position. They stay behind, they aren't left behind.

They choose not to take advantage of the public education afforded them by our tax dollars. They do stupid things like take drugs or get pregnant. They spend what money they do make foolishly. Now I understand that many people are not rewarded directly in proportion to their efforts sometimes, but they also fail to take advantage of opportunities to improve their situation.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Re: Re: Re: Re: American wealth distribution - is this a problem

I completely disagree with that statement. They are not left behind, they generally make choices that lead to such a position. They stay behind, they aren't left behind.

They choose not to take advantage of the public education afforded them by our tax dollars. They do stupid things like take drugs or get pregnant. They spend what money they do make foolishly. Now I understand that many people are not rewarded directly in proportion to their efforts sometimes, but they also fail to take advantage of opportunities to improve their situation.

I agree with a lot of that.

You'd have to admit though, that there are fewer choices at the lower end of the scale, and the cosequences are harder to recover from.

Ever take drugs? I have. waste money? I have. Get a girl pregnant? Well, I might have - certainly had scares. didn't hurt me too bad.

And we both know public schools are pretty shitty in poor areas, urban or rural.

We'd probably agree that no one benefits from a large class of poor people, and that resolving this issue lies in presenting (to the best of our ability) the maximum choices available to all.

 

[FreakMonster]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: American wealth distribution - is this a problem

I agree with a lot of that.

You'd have to admit though, that there are fewer choices at the lower end of the scale, and the cosequences are harder to recover from.

Ever take drugs? I have. waste money? I have. Get a girl pregnant? Well, I might have - certainly had scares. didn't hurt me too bad.

And we both know public schools are pretty shitty in poor areas, urban or rural.

We'd probably agree that no one benefits from a large class of poor people, and that resolving this issue lies in presenting (to the best of our ability) the maximum choices available to all.

Yes, there are fewer choices, but there are choices available just the same. Not saying it is easy for someone raised in a less than optimumn environment to break that chain. On the other hand, giving assistance, welfare or whatever without expectations and accountability leads absolutely nowhere. If my tax money is given in the form of welfare, free clean needles, free housing, etc to a drug addicted homeless person that doesn't use that assistance to better themselves, it is not going to benefit that person, myslef or society as a whole. I certainly am willing to help those who really need the help or have experienced unusual short-term circumstance, but to hell with people that think they are owed something by those that have more than they do.

 

[Sushi X]

matt, good thread. if we don't start rethinking things we may end up like the 1920's great depression, but what's funny about it is the rich will be no better off than the poor. i hope we don't fall into another depression.

not everyone who earns less than 26k a year can better themselves. to do so means to either go back to school, which costs money, or get job training or tech training, again it costs money and not everyone is eligible for grants. so for these poor folks to get better educated they have to take out loans, which costs money in the end and hope they can find work after completion. if not they are stuck in the same job making the same money only now paying back loans.

i make less than 15k a year. am i an uneducated lazy indegent person? i think not. right now i work 30 hours a week, during the summer and spring it's 40. i go to school part time as well. i don't really have time to take up a second job nor do i have the energy. hopefully when school is complete i will be earning a mere 30k as a nurse. underpaid and overworked but i'll be doing something i enjoy and i'll have medical insurance, which i don't have right now but i'm not at the government hand out line wanting free medical care, i wish i could get it but i'm not going to moan for it. if the nursing thing does't work out i have a few more options up my sleeve.