Advice needed for DL form ...

[Maks]

Hi everyone,

I've neglected deadlifts for quite some time and am eager now to change that. I read the descriptions on the PL forum and the advice given by madcow in his 5x5 threads.

Im trying it out now with some light weights (around 100 lbs), but i dont seem to be capable of reaching the BB on the ground without rounding my back in some way. Did anyone have a similar problem with the DLs ?

On a sidenote, the largest plates in this gym weight around 40 lbs, so it is probably smaller in diameter than the usual ones most guys use. Might it be that for me (being on the taller side with 1,90 m, dunno what that is worth in feet/ inches) the bar is too low on the ground ? On the other hand i read that some guys even stand on boxes for DLs to get lower with the weight ... so maybe its only me after all ... dunno .. the movement in the PL forum gif from that guy looks very natural ... i simply cant do it ...

So i consider 3 options:

1st) getting excellent advice from you guys to change my form to an acceptable deadlift without too much risk for my back - maybe there are some additional exercises i should do to get the movement right ?

2nd) getting 2 steps from the step aerobic girls to place the BB upon, to get it like 20 cm higher off the ground so that i can reach it without rounding my back

3rd) not lowering the BB to the ground but instead only to the point i can remain completely arched, pause there for 1-2 secs and raise again

Thanks for listening !

 

[blut wump]

Using smaller plates will mean that the bar is lower and that does make the movement harder. I'm about 187cm myself and it always annoys me to see short guys deadlifting. Being closer to the ground, their deadlift looks to me like a rackpull and it's just something you have to cope with.

To get closer to the ground, bend your knees more. A rounded back will get you hurt. I strongly recommend getting a copy of the book 'Starting Strength' by Mark Rippetoe. http://www.startingstrength.com . In Europe it can be ordered from http://www.c-of-c.de for speedier delivery.

When you pull, start by extending the knees and keeping the angle of your back constant. As the bar passes your knees, thrust with the hips and lift your chest up.

 

[Chambewy20]

I would think this is a flexibility issue, nonetheless, don't round your back, if conventional, bar against the shins, sumo, bar over the balls of your feet. When beginning the lift, make sure your ass is down, sounds like your completing the lift with all lower back and no legs, also keep your shoulders behind the bar, it's going to end up that way regardless on the lockout, always pull back towards your center of gravity, hope this helps.

 

[LiftingDukkha]

Visualize to yourself the image of "driving your calves/heels through the floor." Instead of viewing it as if you're pulling it up, imagine yanking on the barbell with the intent of pulling yourself down through the floor -- as if the barbell was immovable & you were standing on thin plywood & trying to break into the space below the floor. So you'd imagine your pulling intensity actually driving your feet through the floor.

This helps visualize the body feel required to keep butt down. The son of the guy (Ben Brent) who held or might even still hold the world record for age & weight class for over-55, over-60, and over-65 year-old 165 lb deadlift told me this. His dad deadlifted over 600 at 165 at older than age 60, and his son weighed only about 170 & DL'ed 500+ at age 19.

 

[LiftingDukkha]

Im trying it out now with some light weights (around 100 lbs), but i dont seem to be capable of reaching the BB on the ground without rounding my back in some way. Did anyone have a similar problem with the DLs ?

On a sidenote, the largest plates in this gym weight around 40 lbs, so it is probably smaller in diameter than the usual ones most guys use. Might it be that for me (being on the taller side with 1,90 m, dunno what that is worth in feet/ inches) the bar is too low on the ground ? On the other hand i read that some guys even stand on boxes for DLs to get lower with the weight ... so maybe its only me after all ... dunno .. the movement in the PL forum gif from that guy looks very natural ... i simply cant do it ...

I suspect it would simply take practice. And, probably, you should SQUAT too. Good form squatting very closely (but not exactly) simulates the form required for good DL'ing. Practice squats to at least parallel (guys around here love ass-to-floor, a bit too hardcore for me) -- top of thighs (not bottom) to parallel with floor. Keep arch/flat back. Avoiding round-back squats doesn't seem difficult, I think. Getting good form in Squats should help out form in DL.

The standard in Deadlift is the 45-lb York-type Olympic plate. I should know this, but I don't know its diameter measurement. Anyway, that's the universal standard distance -- the radius of a York 45, from floor to barbell -- that "should" be the starting point for a regular Deadlift.

Clearly this puts different bodytypes at relative advantages or disadvantages. In Squat & Bench, the standards are more or less the same for everyone -- lower until thighs are parallel, or lower until bar touches the chest. But in Deadlift, a short guy with a long back & long arms, clearly has a distinct, absolute advantage over a much taller guy with short arms, long legs, short torso, particularly because the starting point is the same for both, not relative to their own body dimensions.

There's nothing in bodybuilding that says anyone "must" practice Deadlifts from the same position all the time. Deep Deadlifts (anything lower than the radius of a York 45) are harder to execute, though, and usually novices in DL probably shouldn't do these until they practice regular or partial DL's much longer.

Perhaps you might consider doing partial deads, putting bar a little higher up, either in a rack on pins or on blocks or something, to elevate the bar & give you a higher-than-regular starting point. Partial deadlifts are terrific for putting on weight, both on the bar & on your person.

 

[Maks]

Thanks guys for all them replies !

I certainly will keep on trying. Somehow that must be possible. I think i will try out putting the BB on steps for raising the Barbel a little bit for heavier work, and complete DLs with light weight to get better form too ...

 

[Madcow2]

Bottom line, I'm thinking 100lbs on the bar is the bar and 25's and that's damn low for a tall guy. I you can't pull 135 (or full size plates on both sides) you are screwed. If guys do stand on a platform it's typically a pretty short one, even standing on plates or using 35's rather than 45's. I know I certainly can't pull 25's from the floor with picture perfect form (or form that's near equivalent to what I use at full height). So really, put the bar on a platform (i.e. reebock steps, a rack with low pins, a stack of full size plates, anything). But really assuming you can pull 135 - which I hope you can, just use that and change your sets/reps for the desired number. This is easy if you know the poundage you are using 5x5 with 200 is kind of like 8 sets of 3 with 200 minus 1 rep. That'll keep you fresher and less fatigued when learning the movement and you should be able to get better quality reps.

No easy answer but until you can pull 135 you can't really train that lift properly. That's unfortunate but the real pitty is no one has full diameter lighter plates around anymore. If you find an OL gym, they have these aplenty.

As for your form, I can't really correct what I can't see without a really detailed description so maybe post a video of some kind (i.e. digicam or phone camera, anything). To be honest though, if it's of you pulling 25's from the floor, don't bother because it's not worth fixing something that likely can't be fixed.

 

[Maks]

Thanks again for replying

Yes, i can easily pull 135 lbs, the problem is that there are no heavier plates than those with 40 lbs (20kg). They have quite a lot of them, though.

But the problem might be partly on my side too. A healthy adult should be able to flex the hip to 130° (without any movement in the spine), and i think i only get around 110-120°. I noticed that problem on my squats too, after reading the posts on this forum i started to do deeper squats and when i go deeper than parallel my pelvis tilts kind of forward and the lordosis of my lower back lessens.

So ... i will keep on practising, I will put the weight on some plates to get it higher (the aerobic steps might be a little bit too high, although bargaining with them girls is really fun), and i will try to do stretching exercises for the hip. Erm ... any advice on the stretching ?

 

[blut wump]

Do a Google, lots of results.

 

[Maks]

You are right really lots ...

 

[musketeer]

the 20 kg plates are 44lbs, and I've never seen a smaller version, but assuming that they are samller, I would actuall put the bar on two samll stacks of plates.

 

[LiftingDukkha]

I will put the weight on some plates to get it higher (the aerobic steps might be a little bit too high, although bargaining with them girls is really fun)

Yeah! That's why I like to use the aerobic steps! (Actually I've used them both for partial heavy dl's -- bar on the steps -- as well as deep lighter dl's -- myself standing on a step or 2). Even if I don't get to chat up a girl, at least I walk around in their area for a little bit, pretending to be looking for a step.

You really might want to try deep squats. Maybe ATF is too much, but box squats are pretty good -- take some of those aerobic steps, and over time test yourself to go a little lower. In my case my average parallel squat is about 15" & with the aerobic step-thingies I can pile them up to this height, or remove 1 or 2 and go lower, down to 13", 12", or sometimes just over 10" which is about as low as I can go. Thing is, adding weight to the squat bar certainly helps me go lower. I usually can't get down sometimes even to parallel until I'm up around 75%-80% X 1 RM. Anyway low Squats almost certainly should help getting ability to flex for low deadlift.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Tall guys may be better suited by sumo deadlifts.

 

[blut wump]

I just can't bring myself to do it. Not wishing to offend anyone but I don't think of it as a real deadlift. I accept this is purely biggotry on my part.

I just saw liftingdukkha's post on the box squats. I've just started doing them again, this being my second time, the first being to above parallel. I'm going down to a 9 or 10 inch metal bench. It forces you to work hard to find the groove having to get that shade lower.

 

[Maks]

Hm ... they only have that one type so i cant compare them properly, but i think they are smaller. The gym is from Elixia, i think they have the same weights everywhere. It has a smooth surface and is totally flat, without the usual thickening at the axis and the rim. However.

Btw, im a little bit confused on the back arching thingy whilst dling and squatting. Everywhere it is stated that no matter what the back should remain completely arched. However, in the vids and photos/drawings of squatters most of the time the sacrum makes a forward motion when going deeper than parallel, to provide more flexion in the hip, and so the lordosis of the lumbar spine is lessend. I noticed that for me too. (lol though with much less weight ...)

So ... do you all really manage to do a full squat with a complete arching of the lower back ? Without any tilting of the pelvis ? Just so i know what i should aim for ...

 

[blut wump]

You certainly don't want to hyperextend the back. The lower back should hold a slight arch but I no longer even think about it. As for the upper back, think more about keeping your chest up than thinking about the back per se. Bringing your chest up is performed by a contraction in the back and this should be adequate.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

You can't hyperextend your back when deadlifting. If you actually think about it, all that weight pulling you down would require superhuman strength to actually hyperextend the lumbar spine. In reality, when you feel that "tight arch" when you deadlift, you're simply keeping the natural curavtures. In short, do as Blut does - don't think about it very much.

Siff says so. I follow Siff.

 

[Maks]

Lol you are right. I think i probably should lose my theoretical approach and simply do it. I already survived the usual gym squats for a few years, so if i take my time on the deeper ones and the dls, starting with light weight, probably all will be fine. And this time im not 21 anymore (sheesh .. time really flies) so getting overmotivated and ridiculously stacking weights on my back because some girls are looking or some idiot said so is less probable.

Thanks again to all to you !

 

[blut wump]

We're here all week. Good luck and let us know how you get on.

 

[carlsuen]

do u guys still get soreness on ur lower back the day after ur DL day? i'm still relatively new DL's and i have no prob lifting 135 lbs.. but i don't feel much soreness in my legs and arms.. only back.. should it be like that? i think i have good form when lifting.. and i also found that one could lift easier and heavier too when 1 hands face in and the other faces out..

 

[blut wump]

Your arms shouldn't get involved in a deadlift. Think of your arms as ropes to which are attached the hooks that are your hands. Don't do any of the deadlift pulling with your arms.

The mixed grip helps with your grip. When you use a double-over (pronated) grip, both sets of fingers point the same way and so the bar can uncurls them by rolling down the hand. With a mixed grip it can't roll and get both hands since the finger are in opposite directions. This gives a firmer grip at the expense of some torso rotation to make the mixed grip. With the extra grip strength comes proprioceptive feedback in the form of confidence that the lift is possible and so the back muscles don't get told to abort the lift.

Yes, heavy pulling still leaves my lower back a little tender.

 

[carlsuen]

thought so.. thx.. but then how does deadlifting help in arm growth? or is it's influence minor..

 

[musketeer]

There are two ways that it helps:

By causig so much stress to the body, the arms grow by association due to the influx of hormones and anabolic reactions to allover body exercise.

AND because if I deadlift 500lbs, each arm is going to have to support 250. The only thing keeping the bones together are the mucles of the biceps and triceps (mostly the bis/brachalis complex). They perform a strong tonic (static) contraction in order to keep the elbow, shoulder and wrist joints stable during the lift. A bit like how the traps contract to keep you arms on!

 

[Maks]

Btw i tried it out today with 2 20kg-Plates under the weights, and it worked great.
I really regret that i didnt do those before ... sheesh ... Its really depressing how many bad advice you get in those gyms. Most of them trainers really dont know nothing, they only show people exercises without any need for technique or form so they dont need to teach or supervise them ...

However, take care and have fun,

Maks.