Advice for my Doctor

[Discreet User]

Had blood test done last week and result for Serum testosterone was 205 ng/dl out of 280-800 reference interval. I did this by fasting and not sleeping for 30 hours before the blood test. (Full panels were completed and are available upon request). Nothing but testosterone was out of range.

Doctor wrote me the following scripts:
Testosterone Cypionate 200mg per week
Arimidex 1mg tablets
Propecia 1mg tablets (father is losing his hair and I don't want to)
Also have Nolva 60ml bottle – 20mg/ml

Doc knows that I intend to “cycle” and not stay on indefinitely. He is willing to write me a script for HCG when I decide to cycle off. Since my testosterone level came back so low the doctor is willing to write me almost any script I ask for.

I am 22, a certified fitness trainer and have a degree in nutrition.
Stats are:
5’07
160lbs
12% body fat although in reality it may be lower. We have found that bioelectrical impedance scales register higher body fat than is true when the person being measured is muscular.

Eat a minimum of 3500 quality calories per day. No alcohol, junk food etc… I’m educated in nutrition and treat my body very well.

I have always been naturally skinny and have gained up to 40 pounds naturally.

This will be my first cycle. How do I structure it? The only thing I am sure about is that I want to do Test Cyp 400mg per week for 8 weeks.

Please tell me how to use the Arimidex, Propecia, HCG and Nolvadex.

I would like to have a something written to give to the Doctor and say here this is what I want to do. I would like something complete with dosages and lengths of time.

Your advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[Discreet User]

I've tried posting this thread a few different ways in order to get responses...

What can I do in order to draw attention to my questions?

 

[stevesmi]

just use the cyp. inject once a week. throw the rest of the shit away. why do you need arimidex again? did the doctor explain to you why you need that ? i ran a deca/dbol cycle and didn't even use an ORAL AI why should you use it for just cyp? pick up formestane instead.

propecia for your hair at 22? your doctor just likes to give you drugs apparently but that is your choice if you want to do that.

since you are gonna cycle run a proper PCT. start it 2-3 weeks after your cycle ends. on these boards we have little respect for nolva. instead we use formestane (which acts as the anti-estrogen), unleashed, post cycle, hcgenerate (which takes care of the rest)... i like to start the hcgenerate toward the end of the cycle and run it through PCT. but again that is my opinion, hopefully more guys chime in but thats what i would do in your situation.

and i would even consider just running HRT since you have a doctor who is on board.

oh and PS again since you are cycling i would run another blood test after your PCT see where your levels are at.

i think a lot of people haven't chimed in cause what you are asking is totally your decision and we cannot make it for you. i would keep reading these boards and you will gain knowledge and be able to make a decision that best fits your goals. i am assuming you want to have a better sex drive and become more muscular right? maybe state your goals and you can get a better opinion as to the best strategy for you

 

[footdoc]

I am a doctor and I'm not sure what ur asking us for here

 

[75th]

160 lbs @ 12%? Whats your training routine like?

 

[stevesmi]

160 lbs @ 12%? Whats your training routine like?

i think he is more concerned with his low test levels rather then bodybuilding like most of us here.

his goals are probably libido and general health, thats my hunch.

sucks i'm sure to have low test, i dont blame him one bit for wanting to raise it up.

 

[75th]

i think he is more concerned with his low test levels rather then bodybuilding like most of us here.

his goals are probably libido and general health, thats my hunch.

sucks i'm sure to have low test, i dont blame him one bit for wanting to raise it up.

He manipulated his results by fasting and not sleeping. Seems he was concerned about getting his hands on gear.

 

[Discreet User]

Thanks guys for responding!

I'm looking for at least 10 pounds of muscle that I can keep post cycle.

My training routine is strict Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST). This is the only routine that I have ever been able to gain weight with.

I listed 12% body fat because that is what the bio-electrical impedance scale says, however in reality my body fat may be 10%.

I have been advised on HCGenerate, Unleashed and Sustain alpha but wanted to get some feedback from the bros before basing my PCT on this stuff.

So no need for Arimidex?

I am considering Propecia as a precaution, because hair loss runs in the family.

 

[75th]

How long have you been training?

22 IMO is too young to be thinking about juicing. Someone with as much theoretical knowledge as you should know that right now your body is producing enough testosterone. Im sure if you got blood work done without fasting/sleep deprivation your levels would be much more exciting.

 

[Discreet User]

He manipulated his results by fasting and not sleeping. Seems he was concerned about getting his hands on gear.

Lets put it this way: I felt the symptoms of declining test and wanted to make sure I got the script.

I also just replied to my original thread answering other questions.

 

[Discreet User]

How long have you been training?

22 IMO is too young to be thinking about juicing. Someone with as much theoretical knowledge as you should know that right now your body is producing enough testosterone. Im sure if you got blood work done without fasting/sleep deprivation your levels would be much more exciting.

I agree with what you are saying, however it's not my reality for some odd reason. I'm suffering reducing libido, cannot gain muscle even with proper diet & exercise and all those classic symptoms.

I'm having another blood draw in 3.5 weeks and plan to take it properly with no manipulation. We will then have the answer to "true" test level. What blood tests do you recommend?

 

[75th]

Just test. And hey, after your next blood draw without fasting/sleep deprivation if your test is still low, then more power to you.

I just want to make sure youre not wasting time and money if the answers lie elsewhere. Always remember that gear isnt an automatic solution.

 

[footdoc]

I'm not the expert on steroids or diet but hopefully some of our experts will help you and not just blow u off. I would say that diet is the most important part of meeting your goal even if you take aas. The intricate nature of the way some guys run their diet really amazes me. To me diet is like balancing a ping pong ball on the tip of a needle.

 

[Discreet User]

Just test. And hey, after your next blood draw without fasting/sleep deprivation if your test is still low, then more power to you.

I just want to make sure youre not wasting time and money if the answers lie elsewhere. Always remember that gear isnt an automatic solution.

Thanks 75th,
I've still got nearly a month until my next blood draw and we will see at that point how the test level is.
I'm going to keep training and eating right naturally because that is how I live. Even if the results come back low I'll still have about another 4 weeks before I can begin the cycle.

Just trying to decide on exactly how I will do this cycle if that's what it comes to.

The one thing I failed to mention is that I had a vehicle accident early 2007 which people have hypothesized might have affected the HPTA in some way. That could be the answer as to why I have low test at 22...

 

[Discreet User]

I'm not the expert on steroids or diet but hopefully some of our experts will help you and not just blow u off. I would say that diet is the most important part of meeting your goal even if you take aas. The intricate nature of the way some guys run their diet really amazes me. To me diet is like balancing a ping pong ball on the tip of a needle.

FootDoc,
You're correct. I actually hold a degree in nutrition and am going to work that angle as best as I can to see if I can build any more naturally. It's not that I don't eat extremely well on a regular basis, but I'm going to try some different nutrition techniques now.

I'm going to follow 75th's advice and see how the results of my next blood draw turn out before doing any AAS. I've got plenty of time before I could start anyway.

 

[Bloodgame3]

oh i remember this everyone pretty much told him to change his diet to gain lol

 

[Discreet User]

oh i remember this everyone pretty much told him to change his diet to gain lol

Bloodgame,
Thanks for the response.
I wish it were as simple as diet or training. The answer will lie in the results of my next blood test...

I had to make sure I showed low testosterone so that the doctor would see me.

Now that I'm good with the doc I can take the next blood test normally and see the most accurate results.

I know I might seem like a skinny guy looking for a chemical solution, but believe me I wouldn't be here if I gained properly naturally.

I gained up to 40 pounds naturally in the past, but this isn't happening anymore.

No one can say that putting on that much quality muscle weight naturally doesn't show proper natural training.

I joined this forum in Sep 2009 after reading as a guest for 9 months and have still stayed natural. It just isn't working anymore.....

 

[stevesmi]

i agree with 75... take the test again but dont try to screw it around. if your levels are still low then you could start a HRT program but if they come in decent then you should consider supps to boost libido and then wait a few years till you really do have lower levels to juice.

 

[Para_Shoot]

200mg of test a week is more than an HRT dose. You never done juice before? 200mg a week is just fine. You say you have a degree in nutrition? 200mg a week of test plus the diet you will construct yourself to gain mass will be just fine. Why not just try it out instead of looking to build a cycle right away.

 

[downunder hunter]

To the OP what nutrition degree do you have? Just curious mate

 

[pbhardbody]

I agree with what you are saying, however it's not my reality for some odd reason. I'm suffering reducing libido, cannot gain muscle even with proper diet & exercise and all those classic symptoms.

I'm having another blood draw in 3.5 weeks and plan to take it properly with no manipulation. We will then have the answer to "true" test level. What blood tests do you recommend?

IMO you should have a Comprehensive Metabolic Panel + LP + CBC/D/Plt + T4 + TSH + PSA.

It doesnt cost that much more to have some additional panels ran.

The CMP itself will include your test serum, free test, IGF-1, LH, FSH, Estradiol, liver function, kidney function, and many other panels that could shed light on any problems you may not be aware of.

Although you are only 22, it is possible that you have low test levels. Ill be surprised if your sleep deprivation strategy lowered it more than a couple hundred points. Which would still put you at the bottom half of your range, which would be considered low generally.

You mentioned that you cant put on muscle mass, and that you are a trainer and using the only method of training that has put size on you.... yet you said it isnt working.

So a couple questions:

1. Are you overtraining?

2. When is the last time you changed up your routine?

3. If the current regimen is no longer putting size on you, why not change it up?

Keep in mind that with your clients who train once or maybe twice a week with you, you dont have to change up their routines as often. But if you are training every day yourself, you need to be changing it up every 90 days minimum.

 

[Discreet User]

200mg of test a week is more than an HRT dose. You never done juice before? 200mg a week is just fine. You say you have a degree in nutrition? 200mg a week of test plus the diet you will construct yourself to gain mass will be just fine. Why not just try it out instead of looking to build a cycle right away.

Is 200mg/week really going to help with muscle gains?

Is a test only cycle of that low of a dosage not dangerous in that it will simply suppress my natural production without doing anything for me?

 

[Discreet User]

To the OP what nutrition degree do you have? Just curious mate

downunder hunter,
I have a 2 year Associate of Occupational Science Degree, and am currently in my final 6 months of study to complete my Bachelor's Degree.
I'm considering applying for a PhD program.

The study of Nutrition Science and Diet Therapy is extremely interesting.

Especially when it comes to renal failure, diabetes, etc...

Many conditions can be resolved simply through proper diet and exercise.

 

[Discreet User]

IMO you should have a Comprehensive Metabolic Panel + LP + CBC/D/Plt + T4 + TSH + PSA.

It doesnt cost that much more to have some additional panels ran.

The CMP itself will include your test serum, free test, IGF-1, LH, FSH, Estradiol, liver function, kidney function, and many other panels that could shed light on any problems you may not be aware of.

Although you are only 22, it is possible that you have low test levels. Ill be surprised if your sleep deprivation strategy lowered it more than a couple hundred points. Which would still put you at the bottom half of your range, which would be considered low generally.

You mentioned that you cant put on muscle mass, and that you are a trainer and using the only method of training that has put size on you.... yet you said it isnt working.

So a couple questions:

1. Are you overtraining?

2. When is the last time you changed up your routine?

3. If the current regimen is no longer putting size on you, why not change it up?

Keep in mind that with your clients who train once or maybe twice a week with you, you dont have to change up their routines as often. But if you are training every day yourself, you need to be changing it up every 90 days minimum.

pbhardbody,
Thanks for the detailed reply!
I am going to answer your questions properly once I have a few more minutes at the computer.

Is there a way that I can upload the results of last week's blood test in PDF format? That way you could check it out as there were many things checked, such as IGF-1 level, renal (kidneys), Hepatic (liver), Lipid panel (cholesterol) etc...

I completely agree with what you wrote:
"Although you are only 22, it is possible that you have low test levels. Ill be surprised if your sleep deprivation strategy lowered it more than a couple hundred points. Which would still put you at the bottom half of your range, which would be considered low generally."

I'm trying to get constructive advice so that I can do all this properly. I will do the right thing, blood tests etc...

 

[Para_Shoot]

Is 200mg/week really going to help with muscle gains?

Is a test only cycle of that low of a dosage not dangerous in that it will simply suppress my natural production without doing anything for me?

I don't know, ask Nelson. If done with proper diet I don't see why not, again, if you never did it before. 200mg is 100mg higher than a normal weekly dose of HRT test.

 

[goin on 4T]

Do you really know what you are doing could shut you down completely and you may never recover from this game?
Game?
Yes you played with the test so you would get the desired results.
I am 42 and am on HRT have been for 3 years now. I never will come of the supplementation of test.
You are 22 manipulated the tests and now don't know what to do with cyp you have.
Just be carefull the body is an intricate mechanism and you may start a chain of events that are entirely un-intended.

 

[Discreet User]

Do you really know what you are doing could shut you down completely and you may never recover from this game?
Game?
Yes you played with the test so you would get the desired results.
I am 42 and am on HRT have been for 3 years now. I never will come of the supplementation of test.
You are 22 manipulated the tests and now don't know what to do with cyp you have.
Just be carefull the body is an intricate mechanism and you may start a chain of events that are entirely un-intended.

goin on 4T,
Thanks for the response.
I definitely DO NOT want to go on HRT indefinitely, but do suspect that my levels may be low.
I suspect this due to reduced libido and other classic symptoms.

In your opinion, If my next non-manipulated blood test does show low testosterone levels, then would it be appropriate to do a (short) test only cycle?

 

[downunder hunter]

downunder hunter,
I have a 2 year Associate of Occupational Science Degree, and am currently in my final 6 months of study to complete my Bachelor's Degree.
I'm considering applying for a PhD program.

The study of Nutrition Science and Diet Therapy is extremely interesting.

Especially when it comes to renal failure, diabetes, etc...

Many conditions can be resolved simply through proper diet and exercise.

Yeah sounds good mate! I've got a passion for nutrition too, im currently doing a bachelors degree of health and movement (sport) The human body is amazing when you learn about it hey Good luck with your cycle mate.

 

[Discreet User]

Yeah sounds good mate! I've got a passion for nutrition too, im currently doing a bachelors degree of health and movement (sport) The human body is amazing when you learn about it hey Good luck with your cycle mate.

downunder hunter,
Good luck on your studies.
The fatter the world gets, the more money there will be in this field

 

[downunder hunter]

downunder hunter,
Good luck on your studies.
The fatter the world gets, the more money there will be in this field

Amen to that Even in the threat of recession here in Australia the fitness indutry was going up! I read a study that Australia is right up there with the US as the fattest country inj the world, oh well more $$$ for us

 

[goin on 4T]

goin on 4T,
Thanks for the response.
I definitely DO NOT want to go on HRT indefinitely, but do suspect that my levels may be low.
I suspect this due to reduced libido and other classic symptoms.

In your opinion, If my next non-manipulated blood test does show low testosterone levels, then would it be appropriate to do a (short) test only cycle?

Your numbers all already skewed once you started the test. That is the reason to all ways take base line tests first. So that when you are done with a cycle you know with numbers where you should be at. Your mind will play tricks on you. Do not believe how you feel, believe what the numbers are.
There is nothing wrong with running cycles, if you are carefull and understand the probability of being the way you were is less and less as the cycle lengh increases and the amount you use increases.
I would love to know what your real test level was, but either way 200mg @ your age, or any age should yeild you respectable results. It isn't what you put in your veins that makes your muscles grow, what you put in your veins enhances what you put in your stomach and how you excersize and then how you sleep.
Good luck to you and let us know how it goes. Oh and I would take it 100mg on Sunday morning and 100mg on Wed night, twice per week is the best split for cyp. Glutes are fine with 1.5" needle. But please check out the diet forum and if you have the money hire a trainer, why only get 1/2 of the results you could get and still take all of the risk?

 

[Discreet User]

Thanks to all who have answered and provided feedback!

I have PMed a few of you with some more details.

 

[Discreet User]

Guys,
I see that my thread is still getting views, so here is a little more info on my blood test results and a FAQ.

Results of blood draw 5/27/10:

Test = 206 ng/dl Reference Interval 280-800
Free Test
IGF-1 = 225 ng/ml Reference Interval 116-358
Estradiol
LH
FSH
SBHG
ALT (SGPT) =29 IU/L Reference Interval 0-55
AST (SGOT) = 27 IU/L Reference Interval 0-40
BUN/Creatinine Ratio = 13 Reference Interval 8-27
Triglycerides = 164 mg/dl Reference Interval 0-149
Cholesterol = 178 mg/dl Reference Interval 100-199
HDL = 44 Reference Interval >39
LDL = 101 mg/dl Reference Interval 0-99

The ones I left blank were not tested. My next blood draw will occur in 3 weeks. They will test all of the above filled in plus Estrogen and DHEA.


1. Are you overtraining?
I follow the principles of Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST). Hypertrophy-Specific Training : : Official Home of HST.
I have been training for with weights for 3 years continuously and have been involved in sports all of my life. I have tried many different training styles. I have trained with numerous BB competitors, one of which just won 3rd place in his country's highest level competition.
Hypertrophy-Specific Training has been the only style which has worked for building mass. I do not overtrain, because this is impossible with HST training.

2. When is the last time you changed up your routine?
I change my routine every 6 weeks. Following HST you do two weeks at each repetition range for a total of 6 weeks. Then I take one week of rest (as called for in the program) and begin a new 6 week lifting program with new exercises.

3. If the current regimen is no longer putting size on you, why not change it up?
I have tried reverting back to a more standard training split, but that hasn't worked for me.
I am a "hard-gainer" I started out at 128lb and have grown to 170lb at my heaviest. That is a serious achievement for someone in my family as we are all light.
So my conclusion is: HST training does not stagnate progress because you are constantly increasing weight and change exercises every six weeks.

My diet is in order. I have a degree in nutrition myself and own a fitness company which employs a nutritionist. I am way too immersed in the world of nutrition to not be eating properly. I monitor my muscle and body fat regularly and now how to eat for my body.