Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below JohnnyBeBad
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Fuck em all over there in sand land. NUKE EM ALL!
Actual Quotes from the Koran
- Thread starter Arabian
- Start date
krishna
New member
These messages were intended for the people of that time who were continually at war to keep their land and their faith. They are messages of survival and strength when its people needed it the most. These messages should not be extrapolated to modern times where they do not apply. The same goes with the bible and idiotic christians who try to condemn or prophesize according to messages that were intended for people of ancient times when they were written.
MegaDesel
New member
CrazyK said:
Ok!! so i'm dumb, but correct me if i'm wrong you are backing up your statement of literacy by saying everyone is forced and considered to read as outined in your statement (Everyone is pretty much required by their religion to able to read the Quran, it is considered a HUGE shame in Muslim culture not to be able to read your own religion's book) . BIG FUCKING DEAL, what a accomplishment.
Well if this makes sence i guess i do have some issues i need to contend with.
MegaDesel
New member
Oh and I do understand the country outlined above are literate, i'm not saying that they arent. However if you read back through these post you find the original argument of GREAT and WONDERFUL accomplishments we have been so fortunetly blessed with by the muslim nations? supposedly.
rykertest
New member
bluepeter said:You raise an interesting point I have often thought about. Why have largely Islamic countries fallen behind? You cannot solely blame Islam. As we have already established, at one time Islamic nations were a beacon of light in a largely dark world. So they have proven that at one point in time, they were certainly capable of great things. This indicates it is not an inherent flaw in their ideology that is solely responsible for their current status. I fully admit I do not have a cognitive answer. I am interested in others perspectives however. Err, actually, now that I scroll back through this thread I can see the responses likely to be put forth so I'm actually interested in your perspective
Thats only been established in your own mind, I strongly disagree.
klausflouride
Member
Islam is not a homogeneous group, think about the various sects of Christianity. Problem with our foreign policy is that groups that hated each other, (Hizbellah and PLO) are now joining forces. Still al qu`aeda kill more more muslims than "infidels" As for their supposed dominance this was due to cheaper taxation in territory they conquered compared to Christian princes, so long as they converted to Islam. Unfortunately we re still seeing the fall out from the Ottoman advance now
Dude, seriously - you need a new source.
.
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Non believers - respresents those that don't believe in God/Allah - not those than don't believe in Islam.
I mean a lot of different writings of different faiths have non practicing people labeled as sinners or heathens.
Doesn't anyone remember the bring a heathen to church day?
Where yah been???
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Arabian said:
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Non believers - respresents those that don't believe in God/Allah - not those than don't believe in Islam.
I mean a lot of different writings of different faiths have non practicing people labeled as sinners or heathens.
Doesn't anyone remember the bring a heathen to church day?
Where yah been???
wakefib
New member
just putting my two cents out there. saying that islamic people have a lower intelligence is flawed speaking from a genetic point of view.
one thing to keep in mind for everyone. all great empires fall. i just hope by the time the western world falls, religion will be a thing of the past. mostlikely, it will just create another sect.
one thing to keep in mind for everyone. all great empires fall. i just hope by the time the western world falls, religion will be a thing of the past. mostlikely, it will just create another sect.
CrazyK
New member
Well personally you're full of shit! http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/wakefib said:
"Islam is also the fastest-growing religion. In the United States, for example, nearly 80 percent of the more than 1,200 mosques have been built in the past 12 years."- CNN
mountain muscle
New member
All of you that believe a religion will ever rule the world are simply foolish, to that end those of you that actually believe in this religious bullshit are foolish as well. I will leave it to you to decide which religion is right. I have a better chance of picking the winning powerball numbers.
Crazyk quote the whole article and source you got those numbers from please. LOL.
Crazyk quote the whole article and source you got those numbers from please. LOL.
mountain muscle
New member
CrazyK said:
Fuck you Dumbass. You have repeatedly posted stupid HISTORIC bullshit why islam is great. Islam is a virus now, suicide bombers, Jihad, hate for everything not Islam. And your "great, peaceful, helpful islam, that the world today could not exist without?" Silent and scared. The only thing useful out of the Middle East is oil. Period.
You actually think a religion will rule the world because of that link?
You my friend, are living in a delusional world, spouting bullshit religous crap that the country you live in has given you the right to. You are a walking contradiction and spouting bullshit about a laughable religion <cult>, that you do not even follow as per your glorious deflowering of a Jewish girl. Do the world a favor and strap a bomb on your ass and blow it up.
I have read your links and am unimpressed as to your point, enjoy your blackout courtesy of an American geeehawd against your two-faced stupidity.
S
Spartacus
Guest
mountain muscle said:
mountain muscle
New member
The second-largest religion in the world after Christianity, Islam is also the fastest-growing religion. In the United States, for example, nearly 80 percent of the more than 1,200 mosques have been built in the past 12 years.
So the "fastest growing religion", in your opinion depends on how many buildings they have built in the U.S? It couldn't possibly be because of increased funding for them, over the years? Or a record number of Muslim immigrants? Funny how so many want to come to the US while thinking the west is evil. You seriously need to examine your beliefs.
So the "fastest growing religion", in your opinion depends on how many buildings they have built in the U.S? It couldn't possibly be because of increased funding for them, over the years? Or a record number of Muslim immigrants? Funny how so many want to come to the US while thinking the west is evil. You seriously need to examine your beliefs.
CrazyK
New member
lol most don't think the west is evil, and it's not MY opinion it's CNN's, and if you were smart enought to read and infer logically, you'd know that they were simply adding to the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion with some other stat which just shows its growth in the USA in paticular. Seriously you're a dumbass lol. Besides that what's funny is you G-Bombing me, which you actually paid money for to do. LOL.mountain muscle said:
jackangel
New member
This is a long read, but if my ADD ass can get through it...you might be able to as well. One thing worth noting about the following piece: It demonizes neither the West nor Islam. Hopefully, this means that more people will be receptive to the ideas contained herein. As for the validity of the content, I am not qualified to positively judge, but I am compelled nonetheless.
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VIEW OF THE ARAB WORLD BY AN ARAB
The Arab who wrote this is: Haim Harari, Chair, Davidson Institute of Science Education. Past President, Weizmann Institute of Science. This is being passed on for your enlightenment and/or action. Once you start reading this you may understand the current world situation a little clearer.
*_"A View from the Eye of the Storm"_*
Talk delivered by Haim Harari at a meeting of the International Advisory Board of a large multi-national corporation, April, 2004:
"As you know, I usually provide the scientific and technological "entertainment" in our meetings, but, on this occasion, our Chairman suggested that I present my own personal view on events in the part of the world from which I come.
I have never been and I will never be a Government official and I have no privileged information. My perspective is entirely based on what I see, on what I read and on the fact that my family has lived in this region for almost 200 years. You may regard my views as those of the proverbial taxi driver, which you are supposed to question, when you visit a country.
I could have shared with you some fascinating facts and some personal thoughts about the Israeli-Arab conflict. However, I will touch upon it only in passing. I prefer to devote most of my remarks to the broader picture of the region and its place in world events. I refer to the entire area between Pakistan and Morocco, which is predominantly Arab, predominantly Moslem, but includes many non-Arab and also significant non-Moslem minorities.
Why do I put aside Israel and its own immediate neighborhood? Because Israel and any problems related to it, in spite of what you might read or hear in the world media, is not the central issue, and has never been the central issue in the upheaval in the region.
Yes, there is a 100 year-old Israeli-Arab conflict, but it is not where the main show is.
The millions who died in the Iran-Iraq war had nothing to do with Israel.
The mass murder happening right now in Sudan, where the Arab Moslem regime is massacring its black Christian citizens, has nothing to do with Israel.
The frequent reports from Algeria about the murders of hundreds of civilians in one village or another by other Algerians have nothing to do with Israel.
Saddam Hussein did not invade Kuwait, endanger Saudi Arabia and butcher his own people because of Israel.
Egypt did not use poison gas against Yemen in the 60's because of Israel.
Assad the Father did not kill tens of thousands of his own citizens in one week in El Hamma in Syria because of Israel.
The Taliban control of Afghanistan and the civil war there had nothing to do with Israel.
The Libyan blowing up of the Pan-Am flight had nothing to do with Israel, and I could go on and on and on.
The root of the trouble is that this entire Moslem region is totally dysfunctional, by any standard of the word, and would have been so even if Israel had joined the Arab league and an independent Palestine had existed for 100 years.
The 22 member countries of the Arab league, from Mauritania to the Gulf States, have a total population of 300 millions, larger than the US and almost as large as the EU before its expansion. They have a land area larger than either the US or all of Europe.
These 22 countries, with all their oil and natural resources, have a combined GDP smaller than that of Netherlands plus Belgium and equal to half of the GDP of California alone.
Within this meager GDP, the gaps between rich and poor are beyond belief and too many of the rich made their money not by succeeding in business, but by being corrupt rulers.
The social status of women is far below what it was in the Western World 150 years ago.
Human rights are below any reasonable standard, in spite of the grotesque fact that Libya was elected Chair of the UN Human Rights commission.
According to a report prepared by a committee of Arab intellectuals and published under the auspices of the U.N., the number of books translated by the entire Arab world is much smaller than what little Greece alone translates.
The total number of scientific publications of 300 million Arabs is less than that of 6 million Israelis.
Birth rates in the region are very high, increasing the poverty, the social gaps and the cultural decline.
And all of this is happening in a region, which only 30 years ago, was believed to be the next wealthy part of the world, and in a Moslem area, which developed, at some point in history, one of the most advanced cultures in the world.
It is fair to say that this creates an unprecedented breeding ground for cruel dictators, terror networks, fanaticism, incitement, suicide murders and general decline. It is also a fact that almost everybody in the region blames this situation on the United States, on Israel, on Western Civilization, on Judaism and Christianity, on anyone and anything, except themselves.
A word about the millions of decent, honest, good people who are either devout Moslems or are not very religious but grew up in Moslem families:
They are double victims of an outside world which now develops Islamophobia, and of their own environment which breaks their heart by being totally dysfunctional.
The problem is that the vast silent majority of these Moslems are not part of the terror and the incitement, but they also do not stand up against it. They become accomplices, by omission, and this applies to political leaders, intellectuals, business people and many others. Many of them can certainly tell right from wrong, but are afraid to express their views.
The events of the last few years have amplified four issues, which have always existed, but have never been as rampant as in the present upheaval in the region. A few more years may pass before everybody acknowledges that it is a World War, but we are already well into it.
These are the four main pillars of the current World Conflict, or perhaps we should already refer to it as "the undeclared World War III":
*1. The first element is the suicide murder.*
Suicide murders are not a new invention but they have been made popular, if I may use this _expression, only lately. Even after September 11, it seems that most of the Western World does not yet understand this weapon. It is a very potent psychological weapon. Its real direct impact is relatively minor. The total number of casualties from hundreds of suicide murders within Israel in the last three years is much smaller than those due to car accidents. September 11 was quantitatively much less lethal than many earthquakes More people die from AIDS in one day in Africa than all the Russians who died in the hands of Chechnya-based Moslem suicide murderers since that conflict started. Saddam killed every month more people than all those who died from suicide murders since the Coalition occupation of Iraq.
So what is all the fuss about suicide killings? It creates headlines. It is spectacular. It is frightening. It is a very cruel death with bodies dismembered and horrible severe lifelong injuries to many of the wounded. It is always shown on television in great detail. One such murder, with the help of hysterical media coverage, can destroy the tourism industry of a country for quite a while, as it did in Bali and in Turkey.
But the real fear comes from the undisputed fact that no defense and no preventive measures can succeed against a determined suicide murderer. This has not yet penetrated the thinking of the Western World. The U.S. and Europe are constantly improving their defense against the last murder, not the next one. We may arrange for the best airport security in the world. But if you want to murder by suicide, you do not have to board a plane in order to explode yourself and kill many people. Who could stop a suicide murder in the midst of the crowded line waiting to be checked by the airport metal detector? How about the lines to the check-in counters in a busy travel period? Put a metal detector in front of every train station in Spain and the terrorists will get the buses. Protect the buses and they will explode in movie theaters, concert halls, supermarkets, shopping malls, schools and hospitals. Put guards in front of every concert hall and there will always be a line of people to be checked by the guards and this line will be the target, not to speak of killing the guards themselves. You can somewhat reduce your vulnerability by preventive and defensive measures and by strict border controls but not eliminate it and definitely not win the war in a defensive way. And it is a war!
What is behind the suicide murders? Money is, money and power and cold-blooded murderous incitement, nothing else. It has nothing to do with true fanatic religious beliefs. No Moslem preacher has ever blown himself up. No son of an Arab politician or religious leader has ever blown himself up.
No relative of anyone influential has done it. Wouldn't you expect some of the religious leaders to do it themselves, or to talk their sons into doing it, if this is truly a supreme act of religious fervor? Aren't they interested in the benefits of going to Heaven? Instead, they send outcast women, naive children, retarded people and young incited hotheads. They promise them the delights, mostly sexual, of the next world, and pay their families handsomely after the supreme act is performed and enough innocent people are dead.
Suicide murders also have nothing to do with poverty and despair.
The poorest region in the world, by far, is Africa. It never happens there. There are numerous desperate people in the world, in different cultures, countries and continents. Desperation does not provide anyone with explosives, reconnaissance and transportation. There was certainly more despair in Saddam's Iraq than in Paul Bremmer's Iraq, and no one exploded himself. A suicide murder is simply a horrible, vicious weapon of cruel, inhuman, cynical, well-funded terrorists, with no regard to human life, including the life of their fellow countrymen, but with very high regard to their own affluent well-being and their hunger for power.
The only way to fight this new "popular" weapon is identical to the only way in which you fight organized crime or pirates on the high seas: the offensive way.
Like in the case of organized crime, it is crucial that the forces on the offensive be united and it is crucial to reach the top of the crime pyramid. You cannot eliminate organized crime by arresting the little drug dealer on the street corner. You must go after the head of the "Family".
If part of the public supports it, others tolerate it, many are afraid of it and some try to explain it away by poverty or by a miserable childhood, organized crime will thrive and so will terrorism.
The United States understands this now, after September 11. Russia is beginning to understand it. Turkey understands it well. I am very much afraid that most of Europe still does not understand it. Unfortunately, it seems that Europe will understand it only after suicide murders arrive in Europe in a big way. In my humble opinion, this will definitely happen. The Spanish trains and the Istanbul bombings are only the beginning. The unity of the Civilized World in fighting this horror is absolutely indispensable. Until Europe wakes up, this unity will not be achieved.
*2. The second ingredient is words, more precisely lies.*
Words can be lethal. They kill people. It is often said that politicians, diplomats and perhaps also lawyers and business people must sometimes lie, as part of their professional life. But the norms of politics and diplomacy are childish, in comparison with the level of incitement and total absolute deliberate fabrications, which have reached new heights in the region we are talking about. An incredible number of people in the Arab world believe that September 11 never happened, or was an American provocation or, even better, a Jewish plot.
You all remember the Iraqi Minister of Information, Mr. Mouhamad Said al-Sahaf and his press conferences when the US forces were already inside Baghdad. Disinformation at time of war is an accepted tactic. But to stand, day after day, and to make such preposterous statements, known to everybody to be lies, without even being ridiculed in your own milieu, can only happen in this region. Mr. Sahaf eventually became a popular icon as a court jester, but this did not stop some allegedly respectable newspapers from giving him equal time. It also does not prevent the Western press from giving credence, every day, even now, to similar liars.
After all, if you want to be an anti-Semite, there are subtle ways of doing it. You do not have to claim that the holocaust never happened, and that the Jewish temple in Jerusalem never existed. But millions of Moslems are told by their leaders that this is the case. When these same leaders make other statements, the Western media report them as if they could be true.
It is a daily occurrence that the same people who finance, arm and dispatch suicide murderers, condemn the act in English in front of western TV cameras, talking to a world audience, which even partly believes them. It is a daily routine to hear the same leader making opposite statements in Arabic to his people and in English to the rest of the world. Incitement by Arab TV, accompanied by horror pictures of mutilated bodies, has become a powerful weapon of those who lie, distort and want to destroy everything.
Little children are raised on deep hatred and on admiration of so-called martyrs, and the Western World does not notice it because its own TV sets are mostly tuned to soap operas and game shows. I recommend to you, even though most of you do not understand Arabic, to watch Al Jazeera, from time to time. You will not believe your own eyes.
But words also work in other ways, more subtle. A demonstration in Berlin, carrying banners supporting Saddam's regime and featuring three-year old babies dressed as suicide murderers, is defined by the press and by political leaders as a "peace demonstration". You may support or oppose the Iraq war, but to refer to fans of Saddam, Arafat or Bin Laden as peace activists is a bit too much. A woman walks into an Israeli restaurant in mid-day, eats, observes families with old people and children eating their lunch in the adjacent tables and pays the bill. She then blows herself up, killing 20 people, including many children, with heads and arms rolling around in the restaurant. She is called "martyr" by several Arab leaders and "activist" by the European press. Dignitaries condemn the act but visit her bereaved family and the money flows.
There is a new game in town: The actual murderer is called "the military wing", the one who pays him, equips him and sends him is now called "the political wing" and the head of the operation is called the "spiritual leader". There are numerous other examples of such Orwellian nomenclature, used every day not only by terror chiefs but also by Western media. These words are much more dangerous than many people realize. They provide an emotional infrastructure for atrocities. It was Joseph Goebbels who said that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it. He is now being outperformed by his successors.
*3. The third aspect is money.*
Huge amounts of money, which could have solved many social problems in this dysfunctional part of the world, are channeled into three concentric spheres supporting death and murder.
In the inner circle are the terrorists themselves. The money funds their travel, explosives, hideouts and permanent search for soft vulnerable targets. The inner circles are primarily financed by terrorist states like Iran and Syria, until recently also by Iraq and Libya and earlier also by some of the Communist regimes. These states, as well as the Palestinian Authority, are the safe havens of the wholesale murder vendors.
They are surrounded by a second wider circle of direct supporters, planners, commanders, preachers, all of whom make a living, usually a very comfortable living, by serving as terror infrastructure.
Finally, we find the third circle of so-called religious, educational and welfare organizations, which actually do some good, feed the hungry and provide some schooling, but brainwash a new generation with hatred, lies and ignorance. This circle operates mostly through mosques, madrasas and other religious establishments but also through inciting electronic and printed media. It is this circle that makes sure that women remain inferior, that democracy is unthinkable and that exposure to the outside world is minimal. It is also that circle that leads the way in blaming everybody outside the Moslem world, for the miseries of the region. The outer circle is largely financed by Saudi Arabia, but also by donations from certain Moslem communities in the United States and Europe and, to a smaller extent, by donations of European Governments to various NGO's and by certain United Nations organizations, whose goals may be noble, but they are infested and exploited by agents of the outer circle. The Saudi regime, of course, will be the next victim of major terror, when the inner circle will explode into the outer circle. The Saudis are beginning to understand it, but they fight the inner circles, while still financing the infrastructure at the outer circle.
Figuratively speaking, this outer circle is the guardian, which makes sure that the people look and listen inwards to the inner circle of terror and incitement, rather than to the world outside. Some parts of this same outer circle actually operate as a result of fear from, or blackmail by, the inner circles. The horrifying added factor is the high birth rate. Half of the population of the Arab world is under the age of 20, the most receptive age to incitement, guaranteeing two more generations of blind hatred.
Some of the leaders of these various circles live very comfortably on their loot. You meet their children in the best private schools in Europe, not in the training camps of suicide murderers. The Jihad "soldiers" join packaged death tours to Iraq and other hotspots, while some of their leaders ski in Switzerland. Mrs. Arafat, who lives in Paris with her daughter, receives tens of thousands of dollars per month from the allegedly bankrupt Palestinian Authority, while a typical local ringleader of the Al-Aksa brigade, reporting to Arafat, receives only a cash payment of a couple of hundred dollars, for performing murders at the retail level.
*4. The fourth element of the current world conflict is the total breaking of all laws.*
The civilized world believes in democracy, the rule of law, including international law, human rights, free speech and free press, among other liberties. There are naive old-fashioned habits such as respecting religious sites and symbols, not using ambulances and hospitals for acts of war, avoiding the mutilation of dead bodies and not using children as human shields or human bombs. Never in history, not even in the Nazi period, was there such total disregard of all of the above as we observe now. Every student of political science debates how you prevent an anti-democratic force from winning a democratic election and abolishing democracy. Other aspects of a civilized society must also have limitations. Can a policeman open fire on someone trying to kill him? Can a government listen to phone conversations of terrorists and drug dealers? Does free speech protect you when you shout "fire" in a crowded theater? Should there be death penalty, for deliberate multiple murders? These are the old-fashioned dilemmas. But now we have an entire new set.
Do you raid a mosque, which serves as a terrorist ammunition storage? Do you return fire, if you are attacked from a hospital? Do you storm a church taken over by terrorists who took the priests hostages? Do you search every ambulance after a few suicide murderers use ambulances to reach their targets? Do you strip every woman because one pretended to be pregnant and carried a suicide bomb on her belly? Do you shoot back at someone trying to kill you, standing deliberately behind a group of children? Do you raid terrorist headquarters, hidden in a mental hospital? Do you shoot an arch-murderer who deliberately moves from one location to another, always surrounded by children? All of these happen daily in Iraq and in the Palestinian areas. What do you do? Well, you do not want to face the dilemma. But it cannot be avoided.
Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that someone would openly stay in a well-known address in Teheran, hosted by the Iranian Government and financed by it, executing one atrocity after another in Spain or in France, killing hundreds of innocent people, accepting responsibility for the crimes, promising in public TV interviews to do more of the same, while the Government of Iran issues public condemnations of his acts but continues to host him, invite him to official functions and treat him as a great dignitary. I leave it to you as homework to figure out what Spain or France would have done, in such a situation.
The problem is that the civilized world is still having illusions about the rule of law in a totally lawless environment. It is trying to play ice hockey by sending a ballerina ice-skater into the rink or to knock out a heavyweight boxer by a chess player. In the same way that no country has a law against cannibals eating its prime minister, because such an act is unthinkable, international law does not address killers shooting from hospitals, mosques and ambulances, while being protected by their Government or society. International law does not know how to handle someone who sends children to throw stones, stands behind them and shoots with immunity and cannot be arrested because he is sheltered by a Government. International law does not know how to deal with a leader of murderers who is royally and comfortably hosted by a country, which pretends to condemn his acts or just claims to be too weak to arrest him.
The amazing thing is that all of these crooks demand protection under international law, and define all those who attack them as "war criminals," with some Western media repeating the allegations.
The good news is that all of this is temporary, because the evolution of international law has always adapted itself to reality. The punishment for suicide murder should be death or arrest before the murder, not during and not after. After every world war, the rules of international law have changed, and the same will happen after the present one. But during the twilight zone, a lot of harm can be done.
The picture I described here is not pretty. What can we do about it? In the short run, only fight and win. In the long run, only educate the next generation and open it to the world. The inner circles can and must be destroyed by force.
The outer circle cannot be eliminated by force. Here we need financial starvation of the organizing elite, more power to women, more education, counter-propaganda, boycott whenever feasible and access to Western media, internet and the international scene. Above all, we need a total absolute unity and determination of the civilized world against all three circles of evil. Allow me, for a moment, to depart from my alleged role as a taxi driver and return to science. When you have a malignant tumor, you may remove the tumor itself surgically. You may also starve it by preventing new blood from reaching it from other parts of the body, thereby preventing new "supplies" from expanding the tumor. If you want to be sure, it is best to do both.
But before you fight and win, by force or otherwise, you have to realize that you are in a war, and this may take Europe a few more years.
In order to win, it is necessary to first eliminate the terrorist regimes, so that no Government in the world will serve as a safe haven for these people.
I do not want to comment here on whether the American-led attack on Iraq was justified from the point of view of weapons of mass destruction or any other pre-war argument, but I can look at the post-war map of Western Asia. Now that Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya are out, two and a half terrorist states remain: Iran, Syria and Lebanon, the latter being a Syrian colony. Perhaps Sudan should be added to the list. As a result of the conquest of Afghanistan and Iraq, both Iran and Syria are now totally surrounded by territories unfriendly to them. Iran is encircled by Afghanistan, by the Gulf States, Iraq and the Moslem republics of the former Soviet Union. Syria is surrounded by Turkey, Iraq, Jordan and Israel. This is a significant strategic change and it applies strong pressure on the terrorist countries. It is not surprising that Iran is so active in trying to incite a Shiite uprising in Iraq. I do not know if the
American plan was actually to encircle both Iran and Syria, but that is the resulting situation.
In my humble opinion, the number one danger to the world today is Iran and its regime. It definitely has ambitions to rule vast areas and to expand in all directions. It has an ideology which claims supremacy over Western culture. It is ruthless. It has proven that it can execute elaborate terrorist acts without leaving too many traces, using Iranian Embassies. It is clearly trying to develop nuclear weapons. Its so-called moderates and conservatives play their own virtuoso version of the "good-cop versus bad-cop" game. Iran sponsors Syrian terrorism, it is certainly behind much of the action in Iraq, it is fully funding the Hezbollah and, through it, the Palestinian Hamas and Islamic Jihad; it performed acts of terror at least in Europe and in South America and probably also in Uzbekistan and Saudi Arabia and it truly leads a multi-national terror consortium, which includes, as minor players, Syria, Lebanon and certain Shiite elements in Iraq. Nevertheless, most European countries still trade with Iran, try to appease it and refuse to read the clear signals.
In order to win the war it is also necessary to dry the financial resources of the terror conglomerate. It is pointless to try to understand the subtle differences between the Sunni terror of Al Qaeda and Hamas and the Shiite terror of Hezbollah, Sadr and other Iranian inspired enterprises. When it serves their business needs, all of them collaborate beautifully.
It is crucial to stop Saudi and other financial support of the outer circle, which is the fertile breeding ground of terror. It is important to monitor all donations from the Western World to Islamic organizations, to monitor the finances of international relief organizations and to react with forceful economic measures to any small sign of financial aid to any of the three circles of terrorism.
It is also important to act decisively against the campaign of lies and fabrications and to monitor those Western media who collaborate with it out of naivety, financial interests or ignorance.
Above all, never surrender to terror. No one will ever know whether the recent elections in Spain would have yielded a different result, if not for the train bombings a few days earlier. But it really does not matter. What matters is that the terrorists believe that they caused the result and that they won by driving Spain out of Iraq. The Spanish story will surely end up being extremely costly to other European countries, including France, who is now expelling inciting preachers and forbidding veils and including others who sent troops to Iraq. In the long run, Spain itself will pay even more.
Is the solution a democratic Arab world?
If by democracy we mean free elections but also free press, free speech, a functioning judicial system, civil liberties, equality to women, free international travel, exposure to international media and ideas, laws against racial incitement and against defamation, and avoidance of lawless behavior regarding hospitals, places of worship and children, then yes, democracy is the solution.
If democracy is just free elections, it is likely that the most fanatic regime will be elected, the one whose incitement and fabrications are the most inflammatory. We have seen it already in Algeria and, to a certain extent, in Turkey. It will happen again, if the ground is not prepared very carefully. On the other hand, a certain transition democracy, as in Jordan, may be a better temporary solution, paving the way for the real thing, perhaps in the same way that an immediate sudden democracy did not work in Russia and would not have worked in China.
I have no doubt that the civilized world will prevail. But the longer it takes us to understand the new landscape of this war, the more costly and painful the victory will be. Europe, more than any other region, is the key. Its understandable recoil from wars, following the horrors of World War II, may cost thousands of additional innocent lives, before the tide will turn."
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VIEW OF THE ARAB WORLD BY AN ARAB
The Arab who wrote this is: Haim Harari, Chair, Davidson Institute of Science Education. Past President, Weizmann Institute of Science. This is being passed on for your enlightenment and/or action. Once you start reading this you may understand the current world situation a little clearer.
*_"A View from the Eye of the Storm"_*
Talk delivered by Haim Harari at a meeting of the International Advisory Board of a large multi-national corporation, April, 2004:
"As you know, I usually provide the scientific and technological "entertainment" in our meetings, but, on this occasion, our Chairman suggested that I present my own personal view on events in the part of the world from which I come.
I have never been and I will never be a Government official and I have no privileged information. My perspective is entirely based on what I see, on what I read and on the fact that my family has lived in this region for almost 200 years. You may regard my views as those of the proverbial taxi driver, which you are supposed to question, when you visit a country.
I could have shared with you some fascinating facts and some personal thoughts about the Israeli-Arab conflict. However, I will touch upon it only in passing. I prefer to devote most of my remarks to the broader picture of the region and its place in world events. I refer to the entire area between Pakistan and Morocco, which is predominantly Arab, predominantly Moslem, but includes many non-Arab and also significant non-Moslem minorities.
Why do I put aside Israel and its own immediate neighborhood? Because Israel and any problems related to it, in spite of what you might read or hear in the world media, is not the central issue, and has never been the central issue in the upheaval in the region.
Yes, there is a 100 year-old Israeli-Arab conflict, but it is not where the main show is.
The millions who died in the Iran-Iraq war had nothing to do with Israel.
The mass murder happening right now in Sudan, where the Arab Moslem regime is massacring its black Christian citizens, has nothing to do with Israel.
The frequent reports from Algeria about the murders of hundreds of civilians in one village or another by other Algerians have nothing to do with Israel.
Saddam Hussein did not invade Kuwait, endanger Saudi Arabia and butcher his own people because of Israel.
Egypt did not use poison gas against Yemen in the 60's because of Israel.
Assad the Father did not kill tens of thousands of his own citizens in one week in El Hamma in Syria because of Israel.
The Taliban control of Afghanistan and the civil war there had nothing to do with Israel.
The Libyan blowing up of the Pan-Am flight had nothing to do with Israel, and I could go on and on and on.
The root of the trouble is that this entire Moslem region is totally dysfunctional, by any standard of the word, and would have been so even if Israel had joined the Arab league and an independent Palestine had existed for 100 years.
The 22 member countries of the Arab league, from Mauritania to the Gulf States, have a total population of 300 millions, larger than the US and almost as large as the EU before its expansion. They have a land area larger than either the US or all of Europe.
These 22 countries, with all their oil and natural resources, have a combined GDP smaller than that of Netherlands plus Belgium and equal to half of the GDP of California alone.
Within this meager GDP, the gaps between rich and poor are beyond belief and too many of the rich made their money not by succeeding in business, but by being corrupt rulers.
The social status of women is far below what it was in the Western World 150 years ago.
Human rights are below any reasonable standard, in spite of the grotesque fact that Libya was elected Chair of the UN Human Rights commission.
According to a report prepared by a committee of Arab intellectuals and published under the auspices of the U.N., the number of books translated by the entire Arab world is much smaller than what little Greece alone translates.
The total number of scientific publications of 300 million Arabs is less than that of 6 million Israelis.
Birth rates in the region are very high, increasing the poverty, the social gaps and the cultural decline.
And all of this is happening in a region, which only 30 years ago, was believed to be the next wealthy part of the world, and in a Moslem area, which developed, at some point in history, one of the most advanced cultures in the world.
It is fair to say that this creates an unprecedented breeding ground for cruel dictators, terror networks, fanaticism, incitement, suicide murders and general decline. It is also a fact that almost everybody in the region blames this situation on the United States, on Israel, on Western Civilization, on Judaism and Christianity, on anyone and anything, except themselves.
A word about the millions of decent, honest, good people who are either devout Moslems or are not very religious but grew up in Moslem families:
They are double victims of an outside world which now develops Islamophobia, and of their own environment which breaks their heart by being totally dysfunctional.
The problem is that the vast silent majority of these Moslems are not part of the terror and the incitement, but they also do not stand up against it. They become accomplices, by omission, and this applies to political leaders, intellectuals, business people and many others. Many of them can certainly tell right from wrong, but are afraid to express their views.
The events of the last few years have amplified four issues, which have always existed, but have never been as rampant as in the present upheaval in the region. A few more years may pass before everybody acknowledges that it is a World War, but we are already well into it.
These are the four main pillars of the current World Conflict, or perhaps we should already refer to it as "the undeclared World War III":
*1. The first element is the suicide murder.*
Suicide murders are not a new invention but they have been made popular, if I may use this _expression, only lately. Even after September 11, it seems that most of the Western World does not yet understand this weapon. It is a very potent psychological weapon. Its real direct impact is relatively minor. The total number of casualties from hundreds of suicide murders within Israel in the last three years is much smaller than those due to car accidents. September 11 was quantitatively much less lethal than many earthquakes More people die from AIDS in one day in Africa than all the Russians who died in the hands of Chechnya-based Moslem suicide murderers since that conflict started. Saddam killed every month more people than all those who died from suicide murders since the Coalition occupation of Iraq.
So what is all the fuss about suicide killings? It creates headlines. It is spectacular. It is frightening. It is a very cruel death with bodies dismembered and horrible severe lifelong injuries to many of the wounded. It is always shown on television in great detail. One such murder, with the help of hysterical media coverage, can destroy the tourism industry of a country for quite a while, as it did in Bali and in Turkey.
But the real fear comes from the undisputed fact that no defense and no preventive measures can succeed against a determined suicide murderer. This has not yet penetrated the thinking of the Western World. The U.S. and Europe are constantly improving their defense against the last murder, not the next one. We may arrange for the best airport security in the world. But if you want to murder by suicide, you do not have to board a plane in order to explode yourself and kill many people. Who could stop a suicide murder in the midst of the crowded line waiting to be checked by the airport metal detector? How about the lines to the check-in counters in a busy travel period? Put a metal detector in front of every train station in Spain and the terrorists will get the buses. Protect the buses and they will explode in movie theaters, concert halls, supermarkets, shopping malls, schools and hospitals. Put guards in front of every concert hall and there will always be a line of people to be checked by the guards and this line will be the target, not to speak of killing the guards themselves. You can somewhat reduce your vulnerability by preventive and defensive measures and by strict border controls but not eliminate it and definitely not win the war in a defensive way. And it is a war!
What is behind the suicide murders? Money is, money and power and cold-blooded murderous incitement, nothing else. It has nothing to do with true fanatic religious beliefs. No Moslem preacher has ever blown himself up. No son of an Arab politician or religious leader has ever blown himself up.
No relative of anyone influential has done it. Wouldn't you expect some of the religious leaders to do it themselves, or to talk their sons into doing it, if this is truly a supreme act of religious fervor? Aren't they interested in the benefits of going to Heaven? Instead, they send outcast women, naive children, retarded people and young incited hotheads. They promise them the delights, mostly sexual, of the next world, and pay their families handsomely after the supreme act is performed and enough innocent people are dead.
Suicide murders also have nothing to do with poverty and despair.
The poorest region in the world, by far, is Africa. It never happens there. There are numerous desperate people in the world, in different cultures, countries and continents. Desperation does not provide anyone with explosives, reconnaissance and transportation. There was certainly more despair in Saddam's Iraq than in Paul Bremmer's Iraq, and no one exploded himself. A suicide murder is simply a horrible, vicious weapon of cruel, inhuman, cynical, well-funded terrorists, with no regard to human life, including the life of their fellow countrymen, but with very high regard to their own affluent well-being and their hunger for power.
The only way to fight this new "popular" weapon is identical to the only way in which you fight organized crime or pirates on the high seas: the offensive way.
Like in the case of organized crime, it is crucial that the forces on the offensive be united and it is crucial to reach the top of the crime pyramid. You cannot eliminate organized crime by arresting the little drug dealer on the street corner. You must go after the head of the "Family".
If part of the public supports it, others tolerate it, many are afraid of it and some try to explain it away by poverty or by a miserable childhood, organized crime will thrive and so will terrorism.
The United States understands this now, after September 11. Russia is beginning to understand it. Turkey understands it well. I am very much afraid that most of Europe still does not understand it. Unfortunately, it seems that Europe will understand it only after suicide murders arrive in Europe in a big way. In my humble opinion, this will definitely happen. The Spanish trains and the Istanbul bombings are only the beginning. The unity of the Civilized World in fighting this horror is absolutely indispensable. Until Europe wakes up, this unity will not be achieved.
*2. The second ingredient is words, more precisely lies.*
Words can be lethal. They kill people. It is often said that politicians, diplomats and perhaps also lawyers and business people must sometimes lie, as part of their professional life. But the norms of politics and diplomacy are childish, in comparison with the level of incitement and total absolute deliberate fabrications, which have reached new heights in the region we are talking about. An incredible number of people in the Arab world believe that September 11 never happened, or was an American provocation or, even better, a Jewish plot.
You all remember the Iraqi Minister of Information, Mr. Mouhamad Said al-Sahaf and his press conferences when the US forces were already inside Baghdad. Disinformation at time of war is an accepted tactic. But to stand, day after day, and to make such preposterous statements, known to everybody to be lies, without even being ridiculed in your own milieu, can only happen in this region. Mr. Sahaf eventually became a popular icon as a court jester, but this did not stop some allegedly respectable newspapers from giving him equal time. It also does not prevent the Western press from giving credence, every day, even now, to similar liars.
After all, if you want to be an anti-Semite, there are subtle ways of doing it. You do not have to claim that the holocaust never happened, and that the Jewish temple in Jerusalem never existed. But millions of Moslems are told by their leaders that this is the case. When these same leaders make other statements, the Western media report them as if they could be true.
It is a daily occurrence that the same people who finance, arm and dispatch suicide murderers, condemn the act in English in front of western TV cameras, talking to a world audience, which even partly believes them. It is a daily routine to hear the same leader making opposite statements in Arabic to his people and in English to the rest of the world. Incitement by Arab TV, accompanied by horror pictures of mutilated bodies, has become a powerful weapon of those who lie, distort and want to destroy everything.
Little children are raised on deep hatred and on admiration of so-called martyrs, and the Western World does not notice it because its own TV sets are mostly tuned to soap operas and game shows. I recommend to you, even though most of you do not understand Arabic, to watch Al Jazeera, from time to time. You will not believe your own eyes.
But words also work in other ways, more subtle. A demonstration in Berlin, carrying banners supporting Saddam's regime and featuring three-year old babies dressed as suicide murderers, is defined by the press and by political leaders as a "peace demonstration". You may support or oppose the Iraq war, but to refer to fans of Saddam, Arafat or Bin Laden as peace activists is a bit too much. A woman walks into an Israeli restaurant in mid-day, eats, observes families with old people and children eating their lunch in the adjacent tables and pays the bill. She then blows herself up, killing 20 people, including many children, with heads and arms rolling around in the restaurant. She is called "martyr" by several Arab leaders and "activist" by the European press. Dignitaries condemn the act but visit her bereaved family and the money flows.
There is a new game in town: The actual murderer is called "the military wing", the one who pays him, equips him and sends him is now called "the political wing" and the head of the operation is called the "spiritual leader". There are numerous other examples of such Orwellian nomenclature, used every day not only by terror chiefs but also by Western media. These words are much more dangerous than many people realize. They provide an emotional infrastructure for atrocities. It was Joseph Goebbels who said that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it. He is now being outperformed by his successors.
*3. The third aspect is money.*
Huge amounts of money, which could have solved many social problems in this dysfunctional part of the world, are channeled into three concentric spheres supporting death and murder.
In the inner circle are the terrorists themselves. The money funds their travel, explosives, hideouts and permanent search for soft vulnerable targets. The inner circles are primarily financed by terrorist states like Iran and Syria, until recently also by Iraq and Libya and earlier also by some of the Communist regimes. These states, as well as the Palestinian Authority, are the safe havens of the wholesale murder vendors.
They are surrounded by a second wider circle of direct supporters, planners, commanders, preachers, all of whom make a living, usually a very comfortable living, by serving as terror infrastructure.
Finally, we find the third circle of so-called religious, educational and welfare organizations, which actually do some good, feed the hungry and provide some schooling, but brainwash a new generation with hatred, lies and ignorance. This circle operates mostly through mosques, madrasas and other religious establishments but also through inciting electronic and printed media. It is this circle that makes sure that women remain inferior, that democracy is unthinkable and that exposure to the outside world is minimal. It is also that circle that leads the way in blaming everybody outside the Moslem world, for the miseries of the region. The outer circle is largely financed by Saudi Arabia, but also by donations from certain Moslem communities in the United States and Europe and, to a smaller extent, by donations of European Governments to various NGO's and by certain United Nations organizations, whose goals may be noble, but they are infested and exploited by agents of the outer circle. The Saudi regime, of course, will be the next victim of major terror, when the inner circle will explode into the outer circle. The Saudis are beginning to understand it, but they fight the inner circles, while still financing the infrastructure at the outer circle.
Figuratively speaking, this outer circle is the guardian, which makes sure that the people look and listen inwards to the inner circle of terror and incitement, rather than to the world outside. Some parts of this same outer circle actually operate as a result of fear from, or blackmail by, the inner circles. The horrifying added factor is the high birth rate. Half of the population of the Arab world is under the age of 20, the most receptive age to incitement, guaranteeing two more generations of blind hatred.
Some of the leaders of these various circles live very comfortably on their loot. You meet their children in the best private schools in Europe, not in the training camps of suicide murderers. The Jihad "soldiers" join packaged death tours to Iraq and other hotspots, while some of their leaders ski in Switzerland. Mrs. Arafat, who lives in Paris with her daughter, receives tens of thousands of dollars per month from the allegedly bankrupt Palestinian Authority, while a typical local ringleader of the Al-Aksa brigade, reporting to Arafat, receives only a cash payment of a couple of hundred dollars, for performing murders at the retail level.
*4. The fourth element of the current world conflict is the total breaking of all laws.*
The civilized world believes in democracy, the rule of law, including international law, human rights, free speech and free press, among other liberties. There are naive old-fashioned habits such as respecting religious sites and symbols, not using ambulances and hospitals for acts of war, avoiding the mutilation of dead bodies and not using children as human shields or human bombs. Never in history, not even in the Nazi period, was there such total disregard of all of the above as we observe now. Every student of political science debates how you prevent an anti-democratic force from winning a democratic election and abolishing democracy. Other aspects of a civilized society must also have limitations. Can a policeman open fire on someone trying to kill him? Can a government listen to phone conversations of terrorists and drug dealers? Does free speech protect you when you shout "fire" in a crowded theater? Should there be death penalty, for deliberate multiple murders? These are the old-fashioned dilemmas. But now we have an entire new set.
Do you raid a mosque, which serves as a terrorist ammunition storage? Do you return fire, if you are attacked from a hospital? Do you storm a church taken over by terrorists who took the priests hostages? Do you search every ambulance after a few suicide murderers use ambulances to reach their targets? Do you strip every woman because one pretended to be pregnant and carried a suicide bomb on her belly? Do you shoot back at someone trying to kill you, standing deliberately behind a group of children? Do you raid terrorist headquarters, hidden in a mental hospital? Do you shoot an arch-murderer who deliberately moves from one location to another, always surrounded by children? All of these happen daily in Iraq and in the Palestinian areas. What do you do? Well, you do not want to face the dilemma. But it cannot be avoided.
Suppose, for the sake of discussion, that someone would openly stay in a well-known address in Teheran, hosted by the Iranian Government and financed by it, executing one atrocity after another in Spain or in France, killing hundreds of innocent people, accepting responsibility for the crimes, promising in public TV interviews to do more of the same, while the Government of Iran issues public condemnations of his acts but continues to host him, invite him to official functions and treat him as a great dignitary. I leave it to you as homework to figure out what Spain or France would have done, in such a situation.
The problem is that the civilized world is still having illusions about the rule of law in a totally lawless environment. It is trying to play ice hockey by sending a ballerina ice-skater into the rink or to knock out a heavyweight boxer by a chess player. In the same way that no country has a law against cannibals eating its prime minister, because such an act is unthinkable, international law does not address killers shooting from hospitals, mosques and ambulances, while being protected by their Government or society. International law does not know how to handle someone who sends children to throw stones, stands behind them and shoots with immunity and cannot be arrested because he is sheltered by a Government. International law does not know how to deal with a leader of murderers who is royally and comfortably hosted by a country, which pretends to condemn his acts or just claims to be too weak to arrest him.
The amazing thing is that all of these crooks demand protection under international law, and define all those who attack them as "war criminals," with some Western media repeating the allegations.
The good news is that all of this is temporary, because the evolution of international law has always adapted itself to reality. The punishment for suicide murder should be death or arrest before the murder, not during and not after. After every world war, the rules of international law have changed, and the same will happen after the present one. But during the twilight zone, a lot of harm can be done.
The picture I described here is not pretty. What can we do about it? In the short run, only fight and win. In the long run, only educate the next generation and open it to the world. The inner circles can and must be destroyed by force.
The outer circle cannot be eliminated by force. Here we need financial starvation of the organizing elite, more power to women, more education, counter-propaganda, boycott whenever feasible and access to Western media, internet and the international scene. Above all, we need a total absolute unity and determination of the civilized world against all three circles of evil. Allow me, for a moment, to depart from my alleged role as a taxi driver and return to science. When you have a malignant tumor, you may remove the tumor itself surgically. You may also starve it by preventing new blood from reaching it from other parts of the body, thereby preventing new "supplies" from expanding the tumor. If you want to be sure, it is best to do both.
But before you fight and win, by force or otherwise, you have to realize that you are in a war, and this may take Europe a few more years.
In order to win, it is necessary to first eliminate the terrorist regimes, so that no Government in the world will serve as a safe haven for these people.
I do not want to comment here on whether the American-led attack on Iraq was justified from the point of view of weapons of mass destruction or any other pre-war argument, but I can look at the post-war map of Western Asia. Now that Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya are out, two and a half terrorist states remain: Iran, Syria and Lebanon, the latter being a Syrian colony. Perhaps Sudan should be added to the list. As a result of the conquest of Afghanistan and Iraq, both Iran and Syria are now totally surrounded by territories unfriendly to them. Iran is encircled by Afghanistan, by the Gulf States, Iraq and the Moslem republics of the former Soviet Union. Syria is surrounded by Turkey, Iraq, Jordan and Israel. This is a significant strategic change and it applies strong pressure on the terrorist countries. It is not surprising that Iran is so active in trying to incite a Shiite uprising in Iraq. I do not know if the
American plan was actually to encircle both Iran and Syria, but that is the resulting situation.
In my humble opinion, the number one danger to the world today is Iran and its regime. It definitely has ambitions to rule vast areas and to expand in all directions. It has an ideology which claims supremacy over Western culture. It is ruthless. It has proven that it can execute elaborate terrorist acts without leaving too many traces, using Iranian Embassies. It is clearly trying to develop nuclear weapons. Its so-called moderates and conservatives play their own virtuoso version of the "good-cop versus bad-cop" game. Iran sponsors Syrian terrorism, it is certainly behind much of the action in Iraq, it is fully funding the Hezbollah and, through it, the Palestinian Hamas and Islamic Jihad; it performed acts of terror at least in Europe and in South America and probably also in Uzbekistan and Saudi Arabia and it truly leads a multi-national terror consortium, which includes, as minor players, Syria, Lebanon and certain Shiite elements in Iraq. Nevertheless, most European countries still trade with Iran, try to appease it and refuse to read the clear signals.
In order to win the war it is also necessary to dry the financial resources of the terror conglomerate. It is pointless to try to understand the subtle differences between the Sunni terror of Al Qaeda and Hamas and the Shiite terror of Hezbollah, Sadr and other Iranian inspired enterprises. When it serves their business needs, all of them collaborate beautifully.
It is crucial to stop Saudi and other financial support of the outer circle, which is the fertile breeding ground of terror. It is important to monitor all donations from the Western World to Islamic organizations, to monitor the finances of international relief organizations and to react with forceful economic measures to any small sign of financial aid to any of the three circles of terrorism.
It is also important to act decisively against the campaign of lies and fabrications and to monitor those Western media who collaborate with it out of naivety, financial interests or ignorance.
Above all, never surrender to terror. No one will ever know whether the recent elections in Spain would have yielded a different result, if not for the train bombings a few days earlier. But it really does not matter. What matters is that the terrorists believe that they caused the result and that they won by driving Spain out of Iraq. The Spanish story will surely end up being extremely costly to other European countries, including France, who is now expelling inciting preachers and forbidding veils and including others who sent troops to Iraq. In the long run, Spain itself will pay even more.
Is the solution a democratic Arab world?
If by democracy we mean free elections but also free press, free speech, a functioning judicial system, civil liberties, equality to women, free international travel, exposure to international media and ideas, laws against racial incitement and against defamation, and avoidance of lawless behavior regarding hospitals, places of worship and children, then yes, democracy is the solution.
If democracy is just free elections, it is likely that the most fanatic regime will be elected, the one whose incitement and fabrications are the most inflammatory. We have seen it already in Algeria and, to a certain extent, in Turkey. It will happen again, if the ground is not prepared very carefully. On the other hand, a certain transition democracy, as in Jordan, may be a better temporary solution, paving the way for the real thing, perhaps in the same way that an immediate sudden democracy did not work in Russia and would not have worked in China.
I have no doubt that the civilized world will prevail. But the longer it takes us to understand the new landscape of this war, the more costly and painful the victory will be. Europe, more than any other region, is the key. Its understandable recoil from wars, following the horrors of World War II, may cost thousands of additional innocent lives, before the tide will turn."
mountain muscle
New member
4everhung said:
I am sure you meant that for his post. 4ever
mountain muscle
New member
CrazyK said:
WOW, you are so indoctrinated it is unfathomable to any person with a brain. It is not a journalists' duty to INFER as you put it, they provide facts. If you cannot even defend your position without a trite article, then you are seriously the dumbass. I find it amusing that you have audacity to insult me for thinking nothing of your purile, asinine religious beliefs while touting their benifits to humanity. Your simplistic, sophomoric nature underlies that of your entire belief structure.
What idiot would believe in such a simplistic, antiquated system of beliefs?
And prove to me the majority does not think the west is evil. Your whole premise about islam in this thread had been about the past. Explain to me the widespread islamic hatred to the west, and if the majority does not believe in it, why so silent? You yourself cannot speak to anyone's beleief, you are a walking contradition.
The mere fact that can publicly defend such a violent, decrepit belief system while living in the US only tells me you are simply, full of shit and merely starting an argument, while suggesting islam is gradually taking over. The fact your parents may be islamic means nothing.
I bombed you because of the personal attack, while you were being hypoctritical. It cost me karma, no more.
CrazyK
New member
lol omg. For the last time, the article is by CNN and it clearly states "Islam is the largest growing religion in the world". It's CNN! Not Al-Jazeera, not any Muslim run organization(CNN is owned by Ted Turner who happens to be a Jewish fellow). This is not the past, it's now. It's the fastest growing religion NOW. So please enough of your ignorant garble, and I'm sure one of your daughters is already swallowing camel meat as we speak, so happy hunting!mountain muscle said:
mountain muscle
New member
CrazyK said:lol omg. For the last time, the article is by CNN and it clearly states "Islam is the largest growing religion in the world". It's CNN! Not Al-Jazeera, not any Muslim run organization(CNN is owned by Ted Turner who happens to be a Jewish fellow). This is not the past, it's now. It's the fastest growing religion NOW. So please enough of your ignorant garble, and I'm sure one of your daughters is already swallowing camel meat as we speak, so happy hunting!
It is unfortunate that my last post did not go through.
I am still unable to find the quote you posted. ONly a sub title about some muslim buildings being built in the last 12 years.
I truely appreciate your effort to degrade my children while ignoring earlier posts by myself and Jackangel. For the record I have no children, but considering your earlier posts on deflowering a jewish daughter I can see how you may be distracted. Now, aside from relegating yourself to posts about islams great past, do you have any answers to the present posts about islam? I find it amusing asking you, who merely parades as a muslim while living the life of a typical American and reveling in it. It was you who suggested that islam is slowly taking over America.
Ignorant garble? Now that is amusing. Do you have any opinion that is not cut and paste on islamic, albeit insignificant islamic history, that applies to the present day situation or the questions proposed to you? I don't believe you have an original thought in your head, you resort to insults, which is the reason I bombed you. "your islam" has kept a silent voice while your people commit attrocities every day against their own. ALL the while you make a mockery of your faith while living in America. You are a laughable sideshow at best, an uneducated cut and paster with no belief in hisself at most. Either way, you have nothing of significance to say. I am certain you will be relegated to personal attcks again so I will consider you, well, ignored for the mere fact of not wanting to dumb the population down to your level.
CrazyK
New member
lol yes the religion is fast growing, and yes I'm as American as you Mr.. I'm sorry you weren't able to comprehend clicking the link to the source of where the article is from(HINT: CNN.COMmountain muscle said:
) but it is ok, maybe in another life. As far as my education background goes, I'm in my 3rd year of University in a well to do school. Most of my education from this topic came from life experience, travel, etc... Go ahead and go on with your bantering about Islam this, and Islam hates America that. The bottomline is, we are a fast growing group of people here, and you're going to have to live with that. ha.
mountain muscle
New member
CrazyK said:lol yes the religion is fast growing, and yes I'm as American as you Mr.. I'm sorry you weren't able to comprehend clicking the link to the source of where the article is from(HINT: CNN.COM
As far as my education background goes, I'm in my 3rd year of University in a well to do school. Most of my education from this topic came from life experience, travel, etc... Go ahead and go on with your bantering about Islam this, and Islam hates America that. The bottomline is, we are a fast growing group of people here, and you're going to have to live with that. ha.
LOL 3rd year of University, IE no life experience, You still avoid answering any questions. Fast growing how? More immigrants?
You seriously need to re read the article. More buikdings does not equate more conversions. But as that goes it is no matter. Only silly, ignorant people follow an antiquated religious sect as yours. YOU are a prime example.
rykertest
New member
CrazyK said:lol yes the religion is fast growing, and yes I'm as American as you Mr.. I'm sorry you weren't able to comprehend clicking the link to the source of where the article is from(HINT: CNN.COM
As far as my education background goes, I'm in my 3rd year of University in a well to do school. Most of my education from this topic came from life experience, travel, etc... Go ahead and go on with your bantering about Islam this, and Islam hates America that. The bottomline is, we are a fast growing group of people here, and you're going to have to live with that. ha.
THIRD YEAR OF UNIVERSITY????????? Unless you are one of those adults that decides to have a career change or something at age 45 (nothing at all wrong with that by the way) the last thing you have my young friend is life experience. I'm not slamming you for being young, but I'm in my mid 30's and have just a hair of life experience. You are being fed a ton of information right now and think you know it all, but you will realize about age 27 that you didn't and still don't have a frigin clue. It's just how life is. I would ask that you print off this post and save it somewhere, and read it again in 10 years. Then we'll see how your views have changed. I bet they will be night and day different.
CrazyK
New member
Yeah I agree with the life experience thing, I have a lot for my age and a lot more to go through. On the other hand my father has the same beliefs and he has been there and done it all. Conversions are happening at a fast rate, I'd say 10% of my Mosque is American or African American converts. That number grows all the time, we had at least 4-5 new faces every month, and we are a small community. I can imagine the conversion rates being a lot higher in other cities.mountain muscle said:
wakefib
New member
CrazyK said:
i am full of shit because i have heard differently?? how does that make me full of shit? i have heard that seventh day adventist is the fastest growing religion, and this came from a mormon, so it wasn't bias. maybe this statistic is just for canada.
the school i went to had alot of muslims and i knew the guy that ran the muslim society. we were talking and he said that muslims are suppost to kill none muslims when jihad comes. why would he lie about this?
CrazyK
New member
If there is a war between you and your enemy, you usually kill the enemy. Not "non-muslims" but who ever you are fighting. All Jihad means is war. Currently, we are fighting in Iraq, killing enemies, whY? Cause were fighting a war. What are muslims supposed to do in war? Slap them? Kick them in the nuts and run?wakefib said:
S
Spartacus
Guest
actallyu I'm inda pissed @ angeljack for hijacking that threqdCrazyK said:
I'm going to be really pissed in a moment
fuckin' fag
S
Spartacus
Guest
I'm feeling sort of pissed
gonna find jackangel threads and wreck hell
gonna find jackangel threads and wreck hell
solidspine
New member
I just don’t believe they were ever an “advanced” culture.
Genetically challenged is a more descriptive adjective.
mountain muscle
New member
CrazyK said:
Muslims have a Jihad against everyone and everything it seems. Cartoon? Kill them! Pope say something? Kill them! And they kill civilians mostly, at least in Iraq, Bali, Spain, USA, England and anywhere else they bomb.
mountain muscle
New member
CrazyK said:
Wrong again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/10/01/bali.blasts/index.html
http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/1855.cfm
I can link Sept. 11th attacks and inumerable Iraq attacks.
Face it, your religion is the number one, fictional,terrorist, belief-structure in the world.
BTW, it seems everything is a Jihad anymore, which is why I mentioned cartoons and the pope. Rushdie? PLease explain this to me.
CrazyK
New member
What do you mean wrong again? None of those said anything about what I said lol. 9-11?? What in that post reffered to 9-11?? Or Salman Rushdie??? LOL. You can't go point to any crazy person or group of people and blanket them as the way all people in that group are. Or say that because they claimed "Jihad" that all Muslims in the world claimed "Jihad". Did you know Jeffrey Domer was Athiest? So I guess with your logic all Athiests like to murder and eat people as part of their beliefs, or at least support his ways. Did you also know that the members of the KKK are Christians? I guess all Christians believe in wiping out all Jews, Blacks, and Catholics?....mountain muscle said:
This is your logic^^^ FIX IT.
mountain muscle
New member
CrazyK said:
I posted names in connection with terrorists bombings. If you cannot connect the dots then you should extend your education at least a few years.
Perhaps I assumed too much about your knowledge of Muslim terrorist attacks, I was citing reference points for you.
Dahmer was an Aetheist, so what? I named numerous MUSLIM attacks. You are being so close-minded and silly on this issue.
I asked your explanation on why nearly all the terrorist attacks in the world are commited by Muslims? Why kill everyone who disagrees with you or makes a cartoon, writes a book, or cites historical fact that may may your religion look foolish?
I never mentioned "all muslims in the world". I am not only mentioning one crazy person or a group, YOUR religion has millions that act in terrible ways against those who do something which displeases them. I want an explanation. While you're at it, why no massive revolt against those who do this since you seem to think they are only a small group. I never claimed "all".
You still have no explanation, you become defensive and attempt to justify actions as common, citing people such as Dahmer and his singular actions. YOUR religion shows the most hatred in the world for those not like them, not just a group or one person but as a huge number of those with the same beliefs.
Again, I ask you why? Enlighten me and the rest of the world.
solidspine
New member
Arabs, Muslims, Camel Sucking & donkey-porking Neanderthals
all the same, Breath smells like shit, & have no brains,
It doesn't matter, Muslims don't matter. Never have, Never will,
mountain muscle
New member
CrazyK said:
LOL, nice avoidance, once again, of answering the questions.
I know you don't have answers.
CrazyK
New member
Your replies and logic are so ridiculous that it's impossible to anwser. You actually spur out a "fact" that millions of Muslim's act in terrible ways...umm prove that MILLIONS commited terrorist or outlandish acts, hell prove in the tens of thousands lol. You can't, and yet you continue to follow me around like an annoying Chiwawa. So until then...you'll get my sarcasm and no respect.mountain muscle said:
mkazzbmf
New member
CrazyK said:
Dont expect them to understand what they cannot see for themselves. People from the western world are force fed zionist lies by the Zionist controlled media. The great decievers are just doing what they do best. Most Americans and Europeans will just believe whatever they see on TV. They will believe what they have been told by their zionist slave masters to believe. They will line up for the verichip when their slave masters tell them too.....They will give their money away to them in the name of false peace and the lies they are told. Pity them.....They are scared...They are to frightened to do any thing other than follow the leader and worship the almighty media.
Kaz
mountain muscle
New member
CrazyK said:
I neither asked for nor want your respect. I have asked you on this thread only. Sarcasm is the only thing you have, hold onto it tightly. Your arrogance and ignorance proves to me that you have no answers but the propaganda spewed by your religion.
I used millions to try and incite you to resond with something substantial. Clearly, you have neither the intellect or knowledge to provide any answers.
Chiwawa? Is that a small Islamic dog?
mountain muscle
New member
mkazzbmf said:
Moved to the Jihad forum.
LOL kazz at you calling me a lemming.
I am not even going to begin pointing out the irony in your post.
What religion do you think I am exactly?
Mountain, I'd reckon you've had quite a few dealings with middle eastern muslims in your line of work. Either way, in a few weeks we'll both 
at CrazyK while 
in Denver
at CrazyK while in Denversolidspine
New member
Crazy K has told me many times,
and he knows that the Koran is all copied and made up by an orphaned Ahab boy muhammed, none of it is true.
Just
Stories of a the delusional, runaway orphan
and he knows that the Koran is all copied and made up by an orphaned Ahab boy muhammed, none of it is true.
Just
Stories of a the delusional, runaway orphan
mkazzbmf
New member
mountain muscle said:
Of course you wont....because there is no irony
and
Religion has nothing to do with what I am saying, so nice try to veer off course.....Classic Zionist way of arguing....Change the subject once your balls are busted and you are exposed. Big shocker...lol
Kaz
mountain muscle
New member
mkazzbmf said:
Holy hell you are on a roll. You obviously skip over Crazyk's posts.
Since you are so dimwitted, the irony lies in the fact that you believe and have fallen for some farcical book that demands you obey its teaching. At the same time you deride and castigate anyone who disagrees and you call them a lemming.
You have fallen for a cult belief and are so immersed in the infantile and, well, stupid belief structure that you have no idea how to form an independant thought or action.
If religion has nothing to do with what you say, why do you always include Zionist in your posts? I am not Jewish. I haven't changed the subject either. Neither you nor crazyk can answer any question without resorting to "zionist lies" and pathetic attempts at derision.
You both need to wash your hands, face and feet and pray that you are given orginal thought and a brain before you martyr yourselves.
rykertest
New member
CrazyK said:
I gotta tell you crazy, I don't agree with you at all, but I have been waiting and following this post hoping that you would at least debate or discuss with mountain muscle. I have some pretty strong views on this topic, but I will at least respect someone who I think is an idiot with knowledge. You are just...well an idiot. It's painfully obvious now that not only will you not, but you simply can't debate this issue. You are unable to defend your beleifs so you shuck and jive, insult and degrade instead of offering up facts to your view. Is your religion so weak or on such shaky ground that you can't defend it with anything more than a CNN article and insults blaming the zionists? I mean come on, where is the substance of your view or belief? So far there hasn't been any, just childish replies. You make statements such as "it was once a great religion" and it has done so much good". Yeah well that don't cut it.
It just dawned on me what your approach here reminds me of; mormons. I have had my fair share of mormon internaction when living in Salt Lake and one thing is very common, indirectness and/or redirection. Ask a mormon a strraight forward direct even yes or no question and you will get a novel of a reply that has nothing to do with the question. You will get the longest reply to a yes or no question you have ever heard! They are masters of deception and redirection. You are far from a master but you are doing the same thing all be in without knowing it.
So rather than just speak negative I am going to ask you to do something I doubt you will do. Offer up some unbiased substance, or answer some of mountain muscles direct questions. It's ok if you agree to disagree, but there needs to be some substance to actually agree or disagree on. You are just trading barbs at this point.
And besides, zionists must not be all that bad, you seem to be pretty proud of your little jewish conquest. Is that all you got?
rykertest
New member
pintoca said:
Second paragraph explains why it is considered a "slur" by some.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government
CrazyK
New member
I never said it was "once a great religion", I still think it is. I never retorted to Zionism. Until people stop misquoting me and stop spewing extremely ignorant garble I'm not going to give a serious reply. I mean how can you reply to someone who is stating that millions of muslims declared jihad lol?rykertest said:
solidspine
New member
Muhammad was illiterate,
How about those cubs,
and how about those muslims,
And Allah did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs. And no female conceives, or lays down (her load), but with His knowledge. Nor is a man long-lived granted length of days, nor is a part cut off from his life, but is in a Decree (ordained). All this is easy to Allah. (35:11)
How about those cubs,
and how about those muslims,
And Allah did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs. And no female conceives, or lays down (her load), but with His knowledge. Nor is a man long-lived granted length of days, nor is a part cut off from his life, but is in a Decree (ordained). All this is easy to Allah. (35:11)
solidspine
New member
Crazy K
Who is that chick in your anavar?
And don’t say she is some Jew slut, you slept with.
E very one knows you are a virgin, and as a muslim have only had sex with camels, or women in veils, thanks God for the veils they are some ugly women.
And for your sake, thank god for your right hand.
Who is that chick in your anavar?
And don’t say she is some Jew slut, you slept with.
E very one knows you are a virgin, and as a muslim have only had sex with camels, or women in veils, thanks God for the veils they are some ugly women.
And for your sake, thank god for your right hand.
solidspine
New member
Any way Crazy K,
Enough about Muslim BS it is unimportant,
Do any of those Arab chicks looks good,
I think the Iranian chicks could be cool...
I don’t know why you want to cover those batches…………..
Some are more than sexy,
Besides I would love to bang some of them,
Crazy K I am sorry I don’t want to bang you no offenses to your homosexuality, I just don’t enjoy it anymore.
Enough about Muslim BS it is unimportant,
Do any of those Arab chicks looks good,
I think the Iranian chicks could be cool...
I don’t know why you want to cover those batches…………..
Some are more than sexy,
Besides I would love to bang some of them,
Crazy K I am sorry I don’t want to bang you no offenses to your homosexuality, I just don’t enjoy it anymore.
mkazzbmf
New member
mountain muscle said:
"have fallen for some farcical book that demands you obey its teaching"
HUH? Book I follow? I have said it once and I will say it again....I am NO religion.....I dont follow any of the "Books" I follow what I see in front of my eyes.....What I see is Zionists telling the world what to believe, what to do, what to eat, who to vote for, who to have killed....etc..... You dont see it of course because they have you right where they want you.....Lemming.
Kaz
rykertest
New member
CrazyK said:
Thats the reply I expected and only proves my point. You are now invalid as you are not intelligent enough to defend your view. I just gave you a golden oppurtunity to try and start a discussion, maybe even a PRODUCTIVE one and you refused. Also, you need to change a few words in the above sentence you wrote. "I'm not going to give you a serious reply" needs to be changed too "I can't give you a serious reply".
solidspine
New member
Hey fuck off
Give me her number, because if she slept with you she will want to support me, my habit, and my chicks and marry me...
Besides religion a lot of us like money I know arabs like camel shit but humans like money,
It is unfortunately is the most important part of existence.
Maybe the Arabs have it right, maybe money is not that important?
Although I think they should learn how to relax.
I mean after all, I am a Jew, did not desire this but had little choice after birth,
And I think most jew and arabs are ass holes,
Oh yeah Crazy, K that means you too, but I forgive you.
See it is hard when you are smarter then everyone else,
Don’t try to understand that statement.
Give me her number, because if she slept with you she will want to support me, my habit, and my chicks and marry me...
Besides religion a lot of us like money I know arabs like camel shit but humans like money,
It is unfortunately is the most important part of existence.
Maybe the Arabs have it right, maybe money is not that important?
Although I think they should learn how to relax.
I mean after all, I am a Jew, did not desire this but had little choice after birth,
And I think most jew and arabs are ass holes,
Oh yeah Crazy, K that means you too, but I forgive you.
See it is hard when you are smarter then everyone else,
Don’t try to understand that statement.
mkazzbmf
New member
rykertest said:
What side is that...The humans? LOL
So you admit that the zionists are brainwashing the masses....Bravo for that.....its like being an alcoholic one step at a time....I cant exactly brainwash myself now can I? But the TV has you in its drooling grip.
This is getting comical with the responses getting shorter and fewer....Only so many lies and words of projection can be used before they run out huh?
Kaz
solidspine
New member
Sorry I called you
I love you
I
’m sorry I miss you just forget I call ed you,,,
Oh Y
and I do miss you,
Don’t; like the
mis information ion I have been giving and that you have been connecting
No proibem
Just try to remember,
I cant be sober amd I do , ,miss you, my bets & on;ye freomd/
O
O
I a,, m mt
Not a gamsgerrerr amd dpmt ber;ove om wjatj tjeu are dpmogm
O lmpw ,m , mpme’ju os tosw’jat os , omb[pratmta.
But Pam Woody I still mis you, foregt everything else, I wantr y ou.
Over.
I love you
I
’m sorry I miss you just forget I call ed you,,,
Oh Y
and I do miss you,
Don’t; like the
mis information ion I have been giving and that you have been connecting
No proibem
Just try to remember,
I cant be sober amd I do , ,miss you, my bets & on;ye freomd/
O
O
I a,, m mt
Not a gamsgerrerr amd dpmt ber;ove om wjatj tjeu are dpmogm
O lmpw ,m , mpme’ju os tosw’jat os , omb[pratmta.
But Pam Woody I still mis you, foregt everything else, I wantr y ou.
Over.
solidspine
New member
Pleaese bumb or craxy ck aafeter all he is craxy
An ii think he is an arab,,,,,
Cod gllless hime a ned all arabs,
An ii think he is an arab,,,,,
Cod gllless hime a ned all arabs,
solidspine
New member
You need to relax,
wax the bently and
a take firggen break, enough is enpght
wax the bently and
a take firggen break, enough is enpght
cranny
New member
Here's a story about the wonderful, loving, peaceful religion of Islam. This one from Australia's Gold Coast. It seems that Dr. Muhammad Hussain got just a little bit less than loving and peaceful when he learned that his 17-year-old daughter was going to convert to Christianity. Well, according to this a from the Herald Sun, when a son or daughter does something that is wrong for a Muslim, it is the child's mother who is automatically at fault. So, Dr. Hussain, a wonderful, peace-loving Muslim if ever there was one, took a knife and stabbed the girl's mother to death. Here's the link if you're interested http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20565905-661,00.html Gotta love love those peaceful muslims
pintoca
New member
y'all need to chill the fuck out
there
all religions are man-made, and riddled by man issues.
none is actually better than the other and you have fanatics in all of them. The fanatisn, regardless of religion (and you can bring this to any affiliation like politics, sports, or anything) is the worrysome part of this deal.
Comparing "My religion is better/saner/more-loving than yours" is simply retarded
there
all religions are man-made, and riddled by man issues.
none is actually better than the other and you have fanatics in all of them. The fanatisn, regardless of religion (and you can bring this to any affiliation like politics, sports, or anything) is the worrysome part of this deal.
Comparing "My religion is better/saner/more-loving than yours" is simply retarded
pintoca
New member
cranny said:
it's not directed at you specifically orb, you just happened to post before I did and agreed, Women Human Rights are f'ed up in the muslim world, this is causing Turkey great grief in trying to join the EU.
Then again, Homosexuals are in great grief in the Christian/Catholic world, It's not the same level, but it's discrimination just the same, that is only an example
solidspine
New member
I was drunk when I posted a couple of nights ago,
solidspine
New member
Sorry to all those I offended, Even CrazyK,
mountain muscle
New member
pintoca said:
Zionist, germexican infidel!
Go get your drool cup and watch some tv.
G
Gambino
Guest
food for though-usa and canada were colonized by euros as well...so was india...yet these nations are economic/democratic leadersCrazyK said:
