A DISTURBING study on Caffeine

[Primo_man]

(Taken from T-mag's John M. Berardi)

Coffee Drinkers Beware!

While there were several interesting topics presented, including a lecture given by a MD/PhD and research superstar Wim Saris who confirmed all of my incessant ramblings about the value of protein and amino acids with glucose and maltodextrin in a post-workout drink, the topic I found most interesting was the research presented on caffeine/coffee and insulin sensitivity.

For a while now I've been cautioning my clients and T-mag readers about the ill effects caffeine and typical thermogenic agents have on insulin sensitivity. Well, at the University of Guelph they've been investigating this issue intensively and here's what they found:

1) Caffeine intake (in all of its forms) decreases whole body glucose disposal (carbohydrate uptake) by 15-30%.

2) Caffeine intake decreases skeletal muscle glucose disposal by 50%.

3) When consumed with a standard carbohydrate breakfast, caffeine decreases insulin sensitivity, leading to large increases in blood insulin. But even in the face of this insulin surge, blood glucose doesn't disappear at a normal rate. When the body can't take up carbohydrates properly (as when drinking coffee), it releases loads of insulin to help out. However, the coffee actually prevents the insulin from doing this job and you end up with high insulin and glucose. That, my friends, is the serum profile of the obese, type II diabetic.

4) Caffeine decreases insulin sensitivity for at least three hours (this is the duration of the longest study they've performed), but the true duration of the effect isn't known. I speculate that it's at least five hours, the half life of caffeine.

In this case, many people are probably walking around all day with impaired insulin sensitivity. If you're a coffee drinker you should realize that you're living your life like a diabetic except during the times that it could actually be diagnosed. When you go to the doc to see why you're so fat or you feel like crap (if you have any glucose or insulin tolerance problems), what do you have to do? You have to fast overnight and avoid coffee! So 99% of your waking life you're functionally diabetic and that 1% of the time when it really matters and can be diagnosed, you're not. No wonder experts suggest that 50% of North Americans are diabetics who aren't diagnosed as such.

5) In one study, four groups were used to evaluate the effect of caffeine and glycemic index on insulin sensitivity.

• The first group got decaf and a low-GI breakfast. They saw a normal blood glucose and insulin response.

• The second group got decaf and a high-GI breakfast. They saw a bigger insulin and glucose response in the blood.

• However, when the low GI group got regular coffee with breakfast, their blood profile was worse than that of those who got the high-glycemic breakfast and decaf. Therefore coffee/caffeine can turn a low glycemic meal into a high glycemic meal!

• Finally, the group that drank coffee and had the high-glycemic meal ended up looking like diabetics.

6) One interesting hypothesis generated at the seminar was as follows: In terms of insulin sensitivity, caffeine alone is worse than coffee and obviously (as seen above) coffee is worse than nothing. However, some people believe that certain substances in coffee (specific quinides) can actually increase glucose disposal and improve insulin sensitivity. While the quinide content of coffee isn't strong enough to counter the effects of the caffeine, the quinides in decaf coffee may actually increase glucose and insulin tolerance. This hypothesis still needs to be tested and proper doses have yet to be discussed; however, keep your eyes out for this research in the near future.

So the final word on coffee and caffeine is this — stay the heck away from it! The only way to minimize the damage it causes may be to drink your coffee with a very low carbohydrate meal and eat only low carb meals for the next few hours after your coffee intake. I know, I know, it now sucks to be a coffee drinker! But giving up your java may bring you some great health and physique benefits.

 

[SOLID]

this should be posted in the diet forum and actually already is - cause I just read it about a month ago.

 

[troybday]

great post!!!

 

[SofaGeorge]

Dumb question... but does this mean that decaf is actually good for you? (If I'm reading this correctly...)

I've got the caffeinated coffee = bad part, but from this article it implies there are elements in coffee that are good.

 

[Doktor Bollix]

Fuck.

 

[SofaGeorge]

Fuck.

I've got phone calls in to two top diabetes researchers... gonna be interesting to get their skinny on this.

 

[gUiLe]

So where does this leave diet soda? Loaded with caffeine AND
aspartame!! YUCK!!!! I guess it's back to decaf crystal light for
me. Damn, I had a big fat iced coffee this morning and boooyyy
was it goooood!!! This shit sux!! It's not fair (Screaming at the
top of my lungs)
g

 

[SofaGeorge]

So where does this leave diet soda? Loaded with caffeine AND
aspartame!! YUCK!!!! I guess it's back to decaf crystal light for
me. Damn, I had a big fat iced coffee this morning and boooyyy
was it goooood!!! This shit sux!! It's not fair (Screaming at the
top of my lungs)
g

I'm in the same boat... I live for morning coffee... just bought a giant double sized cup yesterday... barely even gave it a test drive before I read this article.

I've been cruising the diabetes sites this morning... they actually had their finger on this months ago.

I'm going to Costco today and getting a giant bag of decaf.

 

[serge]

(Taken from T-mag's John M. Berardi)

Coffee Drinkers Beware!

While there were several interesting topics presented, including a lecture given by a MD/PhD and research superstar Wim Saris who confirmed all of my incessant ramblings about the value of protein and amino acids with glucose and maltodextrin in a post-workout drink, the topic I found most interesting was the research presented on caffeine/coffee and insulin sensitivity.

For a while now I've been cautioning my clients and T-mag readers about the ill effects caffeine and typical thermogenic agents have on insulin sensitivity. Well, at the University of Guelph they've been investigating this issue intensively and here's what they found:

1) Caffeine intake (in all of its forms) decreases whole body glucose disposal (carbohydrate uptake) by 15-30%.

2) Caffeine intake decreases skeletal muscle glucose disposal by 50%.

3) When consumed with a standard carbohydrate breakfast, caffeine decreases insulin sensitivity, leading to large increases in blood insulin. But even in the face of this insulin surge, blood glucose doesn't disappear at a normal rate. When the body can't take up carbohydrates properly (as when drinking coffee), it releases loads of insulin to help out. However, the coffee actually prevents the insulin from doing this job and you end up with high insulin and glucose. That, my friends, is the serum profile of the obese, type II diabetic.

4) Caffeine decreases insulin sensitivity for at least three hours (this is the duration of the longest study they've performed), but the true duration of the effect isn't known. I speculate that it's at least five hours, the half life of caffeine.

In this case, many people are probably walking around all day with impaired insulin sensitivity. If you're a coffee drinker you should realize that you're living your life like a diabetic except during the times that it could actually be diagnosed. When you go to the doc to see why you're so fat or you feel like crap (if you have any glucose or insulin tolerance problems), what do you have to do? You have to fast overnight and avoid coffee! So 99% of your waking life you're functionally diabetic and that 1% of the time when it really matters and can be diagnosed, you're not. No wonder experts suggest that 50% of North Americans are diabetics who aren't diagnosed as such.

5) In one study, four groups were used to evaluate the effect of caffeine and glycemic index on insulin sensitivity.

• The first group got decaf and a low-GI breakfast. They saw a normal blood glucose and insulin response.

• The second group got decaf and a high-GI breakfast. They saw a bigger insulin and glucose response in the blood.

• However, when the low GI group got regular coffee with breakfast, their blood profile was worse than that of those who got the high-glycemic breakfast and decaf. Therefore coffee/caffeine can turn a low glycemic meal into a high glycemic meal!

• Finally, the group that drank coffee and had the high-glycemic meal ended up looking like diabetics.

6) One interesting hypothesis generated at the seminar was as follows: In terms of insulin sensitivity, caffeine alone is worse than coffee and obviously (as seen above) coffee is worse than nothing. However, some people believe that certain substances in coffee (specific quinides) can actually increase glucose disposal and improve insulin sensitivity. While the quinide content of coffee isn't strong enough to counter the effects of the caffeine, the quinides in decaf coffee may actually increase glucose and insulin tolerance. This hypothesis still needs to be tested and proper doses have yet to be discussed; however, keep your eyes out for this research in the near future.

So the final word on coffee and caffeine is this — stay the heck away from it! The only way to minimize the damage it causes may be to drink your coffee with a very low carbohydrate meal and eat only low carb meals for the next few hours after your coffee intake. I know, I know, it now sucks to be a coffee drinker! But giving up your java may bring you some great health and physique benefits.

do you have refferences for this??? because i just read a study that says complete opposite

 

[THeMaCHinE]

Re: Re: A DISTURBING study on Caffeine

do you have refferences for this??? because i just read a study that says complete opposite

I'd like to see that study; would you mind posting it?

 

[Cro Magnon]

Not to be a cynic, but doesn't this T-Mag article coincide rather nicely with their decision to discontinue MD6?

CM

 

[drveejay11]

I'm f'cked!

 

[Aussie Juga naught]

But ECA burns fat, so whats the deal if your taking Caffeine as part of a fat burning stack??

 

[TheGame_620]

My thoughts exactly

 

[Hugh Gellatts]

"Not to be a cynic, but doesn't this T-Mag article coincide rather nicely with their decision to discontinue MD6?

CM"


i was thinking the exact same thing. this is the way those guys work.

IMO MD6 was their best product....though it could have used some green tea extract too.

 

[TTORO]

good to know. i wont stop even if it kills me.

 

[Quadsweep]

I would be dead. Would it not be very difficult to get lean under these circumstances if true? Well.......I drink probably 1 1/2 pots a day when deiting and I made it all the way down to 3.4%. and I do not believe I have a blood glucose problem! So where does that leave us?

Quad

P.S. Fuck it I am still drinking my Coffee. I am a conisour! I buy beans like Organic Sumatra, Tanzanian Peaberry, Costa Rican! I grind my own beans and only use filtered water! I would not be able to live without my Java!

 

[fire man 2000]

one 8 oz cup of coffee has about 200 mg of caffiene. one 12 oz coke/deit coke has about 40 mg

 

[monkeyballs]

I'd really like to see some credentials for those statistics.

 

[Cro Magnon]

"one 8 oz cup of coffee has about 200 mg of caffiene. one 12 oz coke/deit coke has about 40 mg"

That's about right for coke, but 200 mgs for coffee? That's too high. Here . . . from the J. Am. Diet (Bunker/McWilliams 1979):

Brewed 80-135mg
Instant 65-100
Decaf, brewed 3-4
Decaf, instant 2-3
Tea, iced (12 ozs.) 70
Tea, brewed, imported 60
Tea, brewed, U.S. 40
Tea, instant 30

Other notables:

Jolt 71.2
Mountain Dew 55.0
Coca-Cola 45.6
Pepsi Cola 37.2

CM

 

[Hacker]

Post by retropump

This is from retropump on AF:



1) "Caffeine intake (in all of its forms) decreases whole body glucose disposal (carbohydrate uptake) by 15-30%."

This statement should be qualified with "possibly in adult males" since caffeine has no effect on glucose disposal in females (Metabolism 2000 Jan;49(1):101-7; Influence of age on the thermic response to caffeine in women.)

2) "Caffeine intake decreases skeletal muscle glucose disposal by 50%"

This statement should be qualified by "in sedentary couch potatoes" since this is clearly not the case during exercise (J Physiol 2000 Dec 15;529 Pt 3:837-47; Caffeine ingestion does not alter carbohydrate or fat metabolism in human skeletal muscle during exercise).

"So the final word on coffee and caffeine is this - stay the heck away from it! The only way to minimize the damage it causes may be to drink your coffee with a very low carbohydrate meal and eat only low carb meals for the next few hours after your coffee intake. I know, I know, it now sucks to be a coffee drinker! But giving up your java may bring you some great health and physique benefits"

This is a bizarre conclusion to come to for a website that promotes itself as being into fitness, and also until very recently sold a thermogenic stack which included caffeine. There is a plethora of research that shows that caffeine and even more so caffeine plus ephedrine leads to an increase in energy expenditure, better exercise tolerance (via glucose sparing effects) and an increase in lipolysis that leads to a significant fat loss. As one paper summarized

"Twenty-four-hour energy expenditure was higher in both groups during drug treatment. Ephedrine+Caffeine did not produce systematic changes in glucoregulatory variables, whereas plasma leptin concentrations decreased in both groups with drug treatment. Overall, these results show that E+C treatment can promote fat loss through an increase in energy expenditure, or in some individuals, a combination of an increase in energy expenditure and a decrease in food intake."

"The thermic effect of caffeinated and decaffeinated coffee ingested with a standard breakfast was studied in 8 healthy subjects with indirect calorimetry. A higher increase in the metabolic rate was observed after ingestion of the breakfast with coffee containing caffeine than after that with coffee deprived of caffeine."

Although I agree that excess caffeine consumption in combo with a meal high in carbs may not be a good idea if you're obese or already insulin resistant, I firmly believe that some java first thing in the morning (before cardio or weights) or before any exercise is a good thing. And ECA clearly helps people lose fat no matter when it's taken. Even when consumed with a carb meal, I think of coffee as being two steps forward and one step back. In other words you still make progress, though obviously you would make more progress if you left out the carbs. To me this argues strongly to reduce carb intake rather than caffeine!!!

 

[beefybull]

(but i still drink diet cokes! lol anyone know how much caffeine is in those buggers compared to a glass of coffee?)

-= nav =-

45.6mg per 12oz can

 

[beefybull]

Here's a site that lists caffiene content of many pops:

http://www.straylight.org/dave/caffeine/beverage.html

 

[PANTS]

Does this theory apply to tea as well.
Tea, with its lower caffeine levels, surely would not have such a detrimental effect. Or would it?

 

[nandi12]

This statement should be qualified by "in sedentary couch potatoes" since this is clearly not the case during exercise (J Physiol 2000 Dec 15;529 Pt 3:837-47; Caffeine ingestion does not alter carbohydrate or fat metabolism in human skeletal muscle during exercise).

It's probably better to say the results of the research are equivocal. That study you cited showed that:

" Arterial lactate and glucose concentrations were increased (P< or =0.05) by caffeine"

So caffeine and exercise together still result in elevated plasma glucose. The authors conclude that:

"These findings indicate that caffeine ingestion stimulated the sympathetic nervous system but did not alter the carbohydrate or fat metabolism in the monitored leg. Other tissues must have been involved in the changes in circulating potassium, fatty acids, glucose and lactate"

A more recent study came to a different conclusion, namely that caffeine does inhibit glucose uptake and glycogen synthesis in skeletal muscle during exercise, but exercise reduces the effect of caffeine.

These studies looked at caffeine DURING exercise. They did not conclude that a trained person suffered less effect from caffeine on glucose disposal while at rest. So it's not quite correct to say that caffeine impairs glucose disposal only in couch potatoes.

Diabetes 2002 Mar;51(3):583-90 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Caffeine-induced impairment of insulin action but not insulin signaling in human skeletal muscle is reduced by exercise.

Thong FS, Derave W, Kiens B, Graham TE, Urso B, Wojtaszewski JF, Hansen BF, Richter EA.

Department of Human Biology and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, Canada. [email protected]

We investigated the effects of caffeine ingestion on skeletal muscle glucose uptake, glycogen synthase (GS) activity, and insulin signaling intermediates during a 100-min euglycemic-hyperinsulinemic (100 microU/ml) clamp. On two occasions, seven men performed 1-h one-legged knee extensor exercise at 3 h before the clamp. Caffeine (5 mg/kg) or placebo was administered in a randomized, double-blind fashion 1 h before the clamp. During the clamp, whole-body glucose disposal was reduced (P < 0.05) in caffeine (37.5 +/- 3.1 micromol x min(-1) x kg(-1)) vs. placebo (54.1 +/- 2.9 micromol x min(-1) x kg(-1)). In accordance, the total area under the curve over 100 min (AUC(0--100 min)) for insulin-stimulated glucose uptake in caffeine was reduced (P < 0.05) by approximately 50% in rested and exercised muscle. Caffeine also reduced (P < 0.05) GS activity before and during insulin infusion in both legs. Exercise increased insulin sensitivity of leg glucose uptake in both caffeine and placebo. Insulin increased insulin receptor tyrosine kinase (IRTK), insulin receptor substrate 1-associated phosphatidylinositol (PI) 3-kinase activities, and Ser(473) phosphorylation of protein kinase B (PKB)/Akt significantly but similarly in rested and exercised legs. Furthermore, insulin significantly decreased glycogen synthase kinase-3alpha (GSK-3alpha) activity equally in both legs. Caffeine did not alter insulin signaling in either leg. Plasma epinephrine and muscle cAMP concentrations were increased in caffeine. We conclude that 1) caffeine impairs insulin-stimulated glucose uptake and GS activity in rested and exercised human skeletal muscle; 2) caffeine-induced impairment of insulin-stimulated muscle glucose uptake and downregulation of GS activity are not accompanied by alterations in IRTK, PI 3-kinase, PKB/Akt, or GSK-3alpha but may be associated with increases in epinephrine and intramuscular cAMP concentrations; and 3) exercise reduces the detrimental effects of caffeine on insulin action in muscl

 

[PANTS]

Does this apply to tea (black) or even green tea?

 

[nandi12]

Green tea has actually been a popular and somewhat effective herbal way to LOWER blood glucose in asian countries for quite a while. Here is a recent abstract:

J Biol Chem 2002 Jul 12; [epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Epigallocatechin gallate, a constituent of green tea, represses hepatic glucose production.

Waltner-Law ME, Wang XL, Law BK, Hall RK, Nawano M, Granner DK.

Department of Molecular Physiology and Biophsyics, Vanderbilt University Medical Center, Nashville, TN 37232-0615.

Herbs have been used for medicinal purposes, including the treatment of diabetes, for centuries. Plants containing flavonoids are used to treat diabetes in Indian medicine and the green tea flavonoid, epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG), is reported to have glucoselowering effects in animals. We show here that the regulation of hepatic glucose production is decreased by EGCG. Futhermore, like insulin, EGCG increases tyrosine phosphorylation of the insulin receptor and IRS-1 and it reduces PEPCK gene expression in a PI3K-dependent manner. EGCG also mimics insulin by increasing PI3K, MAPK and p70s6k activity. EGCG differs from insulin, however, in that it affects several insulinactivated kinases with slower kinetics. Furthermore, EGCG regulates genes that encode gluconeogenic enzymes and protein tyrosine phosphorylation by modulating the redox state of the cell. These results demonstrate that changes in the redox state may have beneficial effects for the treatment of diabetes and suggest a potential role for EGCG, or derivatives, as an anti-diabetic agent.

 

[pittbull2]

Now I'm glad that I never got into coffee , but i do drink a glass of tea now and then.

 

[nandi12]

Yeah, people who are only mildly insulin resistant and don't have type 2 diabetes could probably save a bundle of money and drink green tea instead of ALA.

 

[tprop]

Here's my understanding on caffeine. Caffeine mimics insulin, so even if your blood sugar is high your insulin level will be low. This will cause blood sugar (not insulin) levels to be high. As long as the blood glucose is properly disposed of (ALA will help this) then the sugar will not enter the cellular level causing stored energy, aka fat. Check out Animalbolics Diet. He has a good grasp on insulin. A few small meals composed of Protein, some complex carbs or fruit (apple) and a caffinated beverage early in the day to keep insulin down. Then carb and protein load after workout to boost insulin to send that protein to repair muscle. Also, insulin sensitivity is only decreased by the body constantly having to process simple sugars. I may not be completely right, but that's my understanding from lots of study on the topic.

 

[nandi12]

Here's my understanding on caffeine. Caffeine mimics insulin, so even if your blood sugar is high your insulin level will be low. This will cause blood sugar (not insulin) levels to be high. As long as the blood glucose is properly disposed of (ALA will help this) then the sugar will not enter the cellular level causing stored energy, aka fat. Check out Animalbolics Diet. He has a good grasp on insulin. A few small meals composed of Protein, some complex carbs or fruit (apple) and a caffinated beverage early in the day to keep insulin down. Then carb and protein load after workout to boost insulin to send that protein to repair muscle. Also, insulin sensitivity is only decreased by the body constantly having to process simple sugars. I may not be completely right, but that's my understanding from lots of study on the topic.

"Caffeine mimics insulin... " I don't see how you arrive at this conclusion if caffeine lowers glucose uptake while insulin increases glucose uptake. The two have opposite effects. For example, caffeine mobilizes fatty acids, while insulin has the opposite effect.

"This will cause blood sugar (not insulin) levels to be high." Here the results of studies have been contradictory. Some show no change in insulin levels while others show an increase in insulin levels as a result of caffeine ingestion:

"In the caffeine trial the serum insulin and C peptide concentrations were significantly greater (P < or = 0.001) than for placebo for the last 90 min of the OGTT and the area under the curve (AUC) for both measures were 60 and 37% greater (P < or = 0.001), respectively. This prolonged, increased elevation in insulin did not result in a lower blood glucose level; in fact, the AUC for blood glucose was 24% greater (P = 0.20) in the caffeine treatment group. The data support our hypothesis that caffeine ingestion results in a greater increase in insulin concentration during an OGTT. This, together with a trend towards a greater rather than a more modest response in blood glucose, suggests that caffeine ingestion may have resulted in insulin resistance." (1)

"As long as the blood glucose is properly disposed of (ALA will help this) then the sugar will not enter the cellular level causing stored energy, aka fat." This is exactly what ALA does: it increases cellular uptake of glucose. If this glucose is not converted to glycogen or immediately used for energy it will be stored as fat.

" Also, insulin sensitivity is only decreased by the body constantly having to process simple sugars." People don't know how insulin resistance is caused. Sugar makes it worse but is not the cause. Insulin resistant individuals can totally eliminate simple sugars from the diet and still remain resistant. The cause of the insulin signalling and glucose transport defects are much more complex than just being caused by sugar.





(1) Can J Physiol Pharmacol 2001 Jul;79(7):559-65
Caffeine ingestion elevates plasma insulin response in humans during an oral glucose tolerance test.
Graham TE, Sathasivam P, Rowland M, Marko N, Greer F, Battram D.

 

[Fat Bastard]

Maybe this is why low-carb diets are so effective when used in conjuntion with eca stacks.

 

[nandi12]

Low carb diets often aren't successful because when a person's carb intake drops below about 50 grams/day, the body cuts back on the conversion (so called deiodination) of T4 to T3 in an attempt to conserve energy. (T3 is the biologically active thyroid hormone.) Less T3 means a metabolic slowdown.

Ephedrine administration raises the T3 to T4 ratio probably due to increased deiodination (1). So when you take ECA or T3 on a ketogenic diet it really enhances fat loss.



(1) Am J Clin Nutr 1985 Jul;42(1):83-94
Enhanced thermogenic responsiveness during chronic ephedrine treatment in man.
Astrup A, Lundsgaard C, Madsen J, Christensen NJ.

 

[PANTS]

Cool thread. And Black tea?

 

[gainerxxl]

I think the effects of caffeine are a little exaggerated here. Me, and almost everybody I know of, drinks a lot of Coffee, many consume ECA Stacks and had no problem building a lean muscular physique. The studies above were performed using only a few individuals, nothing was said about their regular use of Caffeine (maybe they chose men who claimed to not consume any Caffeine, cause a Study needs to show something!), nothing is said about long term effects, nothing about a tolerance the body builds up against Caffeine. Further, they gave the subjects a really good dose of Caffeine (5mg/kg bodyweight), which would be almost 500 mg´s of Caffeine for me. 500mg makes me feel quite uncomfortable (That´s about 5 cups of strong Coffee), only few consume that much caffeine.

I´m very sceptical about studies like that, performing tests on only two occasions, only seven subjects, using a VERY high dose of the drug.....

I´ll keep drinking my Coffee, fuck studies like that.

 

[Christianlifter]

TELL ME IT AINT TRUE

I LOVE COFFEE
Isnt there anything fun thats GOOD for you anymore.




God Bless

 

[=w=]

Here is what Bryan Haycock had to say about the insulin sensitivity/caffeine issue over at the HST board:

Caffein does temporarily decrease insulin sensitivity. So does anything else that is "lipolytic". I have read the study(s).

Exercise was shown to negate (reverse) the effect of the caffeine. This is because of what is called non-insulin dependant glucose uptake.

Anything that stimulates the release of noradrenaline or adrenaline will decrease insulin sensitivity. Even an increase in blood levels of released fatty acids will decrease insulin sensitivity. Its called the glucose fatty acid cycle, or the Randle Cycle. This is because the fat cell's "machinery" is not designed to store and release fuel at the same time. This would be counter productive. The only exception is exercise, where the body wants to release fuel from fat cells at the moment, but increase its ability to take in fuel to replace what it lost from muscle as fast as possible afterwards (or "during" exercise in the case of muscle tissue).

No need to panic about caffeine and insulin sensitivity. Its effects on insulin sensitivity have been known for a long time.

 

[PANTS]

I think this is only significant immediately post work-out, when insulin sensitivity is most important.

 

[caiza]

yes skip the casffeine after workout wat about in the morning love to wake up to a cupper.

 

[ryker77]

I take 100-300mgs of green tea along with 500mgs ALA with every meal thats before 5:00pm. So I'd be taking 5 steps forward and about 2 back.

For every action there has to be an reaction!