911 Conspiracy?

[Testosterone boy]

there is an ol' saying that the military runs this country. if it was internally assisted that is where i would put my money, the military and intel community. anytime they feel they arent getting there fair share of the budget dollar or are being downsized they make things happen to thier advantage.
1. the military and intel community were downsized prior to 9-11. thier significance was reduced.
2. either they did a piss poor job tracking and monitoring al-queda due to thier downsizing and lack of real world intel on the ground or they did a piss poor job purposely.
3. after 9-11, the intel community has been beefed up, we homeland security, and our military is in the limelight(generals love war).

i would nover vote for kerry, he is a lying sack of shit. and although i believe bush has his flaws i want someone that will continue fucking people up that deserve it.

and yes i believe the taliban, al-queda and irag deserved it. no matter what the reason, for me the end justified the means.

Well I hope that Al-Queda and the Taliban deserved it!

Too bad the majority of our resources went into an innocent country from what I can see. Saddam is alive and over 30,000 decent folks are dead or dieing.

I know you hate the ARABS/MUSLIMS but I just can't hate someone because they are different. Shoot.....I like most Mexicans as well.

 

[spongebob]

Spongebob, you do seem to know what your talking about and I would like to read your previous thread's on this subject... I'm not much of a researcher compared to you, but some of the evidence seem's pretty convinceing that their where some individual's in our government that where part of the 911 attack's...

the link i posted above refers to the debate me and buddy had, and its a spill over from previous threads the had been started, so it is hard to follow in a way. i cant begin to tell you how much material we covered but my desk was literall stacked deep with articles. buddy28 believed in govt complicity, i believed in an intelligence failure. there is no doubt that the intel community was and still is screwed up. but to be honest there are alot of connections that someone could make for an arguement for a conspiracy, but i still dont believe in it.

our govt is run by alot of arrogant, greedy stupid people in my opinion. this also contributed to 9-11. we were in bed with alot of people, and i think thats one of the reasons so many connections can be made. but i dont believe any govt official specifically knew or contributed to the attacks, maybe unknowingly but not deliberately. and i just dont think bush had anything to do with it regardless of all the connections, its just the way i read the guy, my opinion.

some of the things i try to key in on when reading any of the material is dates, and when an article qoutes someone or another article, then i search for info relating to that specifically. and i just write shit down on timelines.

 

[Testosterone boy]

Spongebob, to hell with the towers themselves for now, lets look at events surrounding 9-11:



Can't you admit that all of this is extremely suspicious? The air force standdown ALONE is proof enough that the government knew and aided the attacks. The insider trading, and by a CIA director no less, is just icing on the cake.

This did not pick up most of your post, the most important was the part about insider traders going short on United and American a few days before 9/11.

Is there a link that shows the CIA deputy director was one of the people going short?

I find this hard to believe, surely his ass would be fried.

 

[spongebob]

Well I hope that Al-Queda and the Taliban deserved it!

Too bad the majority of our resources went into an innocent country from what I can see. Saddam is alive and over 30,000 decent folks are dead or dieing.

I know you hate the ARABS/MUSLIMS but I just can't hate someone because they are different. Shoot.....I like most Mexicans as well.

besides being linked to the first attack on TWC, the bombings in kenya and tanzenia, the khobar towers and the USS cole, al-queda desreved for one reason only, they declared a jihad on all american citizens, abroad and at home. that alone is enough to hunt them down and kill them. at that point it is either them or you and id rather be on the offensive.

the taliban deserved it because they would not turn him over, thats enough for me.

i feel bad about the innocent but we gave saddam an ultimatim and he declined, that also is enough for me. and after seeing the atricities him and his fucked up sons did, everyone should be happy. those dudes were bruttal.

im sorry it may appear that i hate arabs/muslims but i really dont hate anyone, not even my enemy, its just not in me to hate. one time i got into a fight and i felt really bad for hitting the guy even though he prevoked me.

 

[spongebob]

Hmmmmm....well you would know about both the military and intel. cough...cough

lol. i work for a chemical manufacturing company, honest.

 

[Testosterone boy]

lol. i work for a chemical manufacturing company, honest.

Yes you do.

Your cover the job well.

 

[buddy28]

excellent point and good finds, i figured there would be some statements from the build team that would be somewhat contradictory.

i think in the end they will find that the apparent insufficient insulation will be a strong factor. for some reason it was only about 50% of what code requires. the NY port authority had waivers on it i believe. the south tower which had the least amount of fire retarded collapsed first although it was hit last. there is an engineer(and many others backing him) that claims the fire retarded was a major factor. whether it was knocked off or insufficient.

im signing off for now as well, im going get back to my remodel. but i will continue on TWC collapse exclusively.

peace.

Hey man. I got sucked back in! I can't help myself

The articles are very interesting and I am glad I had a chance to share them. They do appear on the surface to support the official collapse theory. Especially, Skillings report the Baltimore Sun. But something I forgot to include last night was another excerpt from Robertsons statement submitted to the national academy of engineers in which he admits confusion as to why the towers failed:

"...When the two towers were finished, the World Trade Center stood proud, strong, and tall. Indeed, with little effort, the towers shrugged off the efforts of terrorist bombers in 1993 to bring them down. The events of September 11, however, are not well understood by me . . . and perhaps cannot really be understood by anyone."
http://www.nae.edu/nae/naehome.nsf/weblinks/CGOZ-58NLCB?OpenDocument


What struck me as odd about Robertsons comment was he didn't explicitly endorse the official collapse theory in a moment of clarity one would expect if he affirmed their general conclusions. Even more puzzling, was his reluctance to offer any collapse explanation at all, in favor of hinting confusion as to why the failure occurred in the first place. On the surface, this further substantiates his initial statement to the NYT and Aarons similar statement the buildings were designed to take a hit of similar intensity.

But another interesting angle we both haven't addressed is the issue of liability. If WTC structural engineers conceded the fire induced truss failure collapse theory was correct, they would be in essence admitting their own precautionary measures drafted for almost a identical eventuality were insufficient to withstand a disaster the Port Authority of New York specifically commissioned them to plan for. This might suggest negligence and therefore liability. So its possible Robertson concurs with the official explanation but is playing dumb to save his company.

But then again....

 

[buddy28]

now the question is, which had the lower temperature for the heat to transfer to, the intertwined steel on the top or the subterranean beneath the structure which the subteranean columns and footing were located(hundreds of feet below).

so, did all the heat from the fire transfer downward or upward? i say downward, the temperature would have definitely been less, especially in sept.

Diffusion doesn't work like that. Thermal diffusion - just like gaseous and liquid diffusion - operates on the principle high concentration gradients migrate to areas of lower concentration until the two gradients are equivalent. Diffusion is all relative. Air exhibiting high temperature migrates to areas of lower temperature relative to it's own temperature.

The fires and latent air temp in the subbasement were higher relative to all other surrounding temperature, therefore, their heat would have been siphoned off and sucked out into the adjacent environment - precluding the formation of hotspots significant enough to liquefy steel for months.

If heat energy localized itself regardless of surrounding temperatures, like you suggest, no one would have to pay a heating bill ever again.

 

[spongebob]

Hey man. I got sucked back in! I can't help myself

But another interesting angle we both haven't addressed is the issue of liability. If WTC structural engineers conceded the fire induced truss failure collapse theory was correct, they would be in essence admitting their own precautionary measures drafted for almost a identical eventuality were insufficient to withstand a disaster the Port Authority of New York specifically commissioned them to plan for. This might suggest negligence and therefore liability. So its possible Robertson concurs with the official explanation but is playing dumb to save his company.

But then again....

yea its too tempting not to reply.

yea i was thinking about that last night after having read your earlier post. infact silverstien or has commissioned his own team while the people that have filed a lawsuit has thier team. that is probably going to cloud this issue just too much. i am going to try and stick to the most independent sources available. may be impossible.

as far as the design team, i figured initial responses(like the one i qouted of leslie robertson) would tend to differ from recent response. my opinion is the team would go thru phases. one of self blame or self doubt thru different stages to one of unexplanability. it has to be hard on them not just from a liability point but just from the fact that they design it.

i beileve a large part of the liability case will soon shift to the fire retardant of the steel. it was by thier own admission to perhaps be insuffucient. here is an article of one view of that theory. in it, it explains the thickness of the retardant and it also states that the south tower had 50% less than the north tower, the south tower fell first although being hit second.

even the port authorities engineer recommended the retardant be upgraded, although he states in there that the thickness was not the problem, so why upgrade it. again this is going to be tied to the lawsuits, so you never know.

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993354

 

[spongebob]

Diffusion doesn't work like that. Thermal diffusion - just like gaseous and liquid diffusion - operates on the principle high concentration gradients migrate to areas of lower concentration until the two gradients are equivalent. Diffusion is all relative. Air exhibiting high temperature migrates to areas of lower temperature relative to it's own temperature.

The fires and latent air temp in the subbasement were higher relative to all other surrounding temperature, therefore, their heat would have been siphoned off and sucked out into the adjacent environment - precluding the formation of hotspots significant enough to liquefy steel for months.

If heat energy localized itself regardless of surrounding temperatures, like you suggest, no one would have to pay a heating bill ever again.

im not suggesting it localizes itself. i clearly stated heat is transfered, so i am aware that nothing can keep a constant temp, without external input.

i was suggesting that the 1,000,000 tons of material that fell to the ground and was on fire for a very long period was laying on top of the subbasement. the intense and prolonged heat generated gradiated to the subbasement(where the melted steel was) instead of upward to the warmer environment. warmer verses the subbasement. just an idea, because i definitely dont know.