5x5 question: back day

[gymtime]

Just started up with the 5x5 last week. Got back tonight.

I'm starting with deads at 5x5. Question is, since, as great as deads are for you, they don't directly hit the lats, can I add something like a cable row at 5x5 in addition? Then do the two secondary excercises after that?

Thoughts?

 

[Madcow2]

There are a lot of 5x5 variations. You should list the days, the exercises, and specify sets/reps if you are deviating from 5x5 for assistance work. Please also indicate whether you are pyramiding your 5x5 or working up to a working set weight and using it for the 5 sets.

If you do need to make an addition or substitution (if you are following someone else's program, I'd be stunned if there wasn't some lat work somewhere), barbell rows are the logical choice - especially since cable rows are garbage.

 

[Lord_Suston]

Weighted pull-ups or chinup
5x5reps
Rowing type excercises
2x8reps
Deadz
5x3 or 3x5

 

[The Shadow]

Just started up with the 5x5 last week. Got back tonight.

I'm starting with deads at 5x5. Question is, since, as great as deads are for you, they don't directly hit the lats, can I add something like a cable row at 5x5 in addition? Then do the two secondary excercises after that?

Thoughts?

yes - bit I wouldnt do 5x5

so standard bbing rep scheme

 

[gymtime]

yes - bit I wouldnt do 5x5

so standard bbing rep scheme

I like this. I was trying to avoid a 5x5 set of bent rows directly following deads.

 

[Madcow2]

Although it's against some conventional wisdom, you can get away with doing barbell rows before your deads if your back is too exhausted after them. Caveats would be, not having a serious core weakness, not rowing with super heavy weight, and not having to hit very difficult lifts afterward that day. They actually make for a nice warm up if you meet all these conditions. Generally I don't advise doing anything before a core movement but it tends to work nicely as a warm up to deads especially when rowing off the floor and not using a rack. Success will vary from person to person but it's a nice workaround that lets me do some serious rowing and go right to the pulls.

 

[Silvertide]

When I did 5x5, I used to do:

3x5 Deads
5x5 Weighted Pullups
T-Bar or BB Row 2x10
Cable or DB Row 2x10
BB Shrugs 2x8

My lats grew like weeds on that regimen.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

When I did 5x5, I used to do:

3x5 Deads
5x5 Weighted Pullups
T-Bar or BB Row 2x10
Cable or DB Row 2x10
BB Shrugs 2x8

My lats grew like weeds on that regimen.

i like that routine a lot..you can even drop the deads down to 2 working sets..obviously when you just starting it the weight will be light but you can increase faster and work up to 2 very heavy work sets..lately ive been using the hammer high row machine and its kinda growing on me..

 

[gymtime]

i like that routine a lot..you can even drop the deads down to 2 working sets..obviously when you just starting it the weight will be light but you can increase faster and work up to 2 very heavy work sets..lately ive been using the hammer high row machine and its kinda growing on me..

I like that one too. I also use the hammer high row now and then. I'd probably use it at some point for my secondary row.

madcow2 - Dunno about that. Maybe it's a psychological thing for me, but I can't imagine not doing deads or squats first. They take so much out of me so I really feel like I need to do them fresh.

Great responses....thanks all!!

 

[Madcow2]

Just out of curiosity, where is everyone getting their 5x5 program info?

These don't look anything like what I've seen in the past. They resemble 3 day split bodybuilding routines, seem have an over abundance of assistance work, and from what I can tell maybe only 1 exercise is done for 5 sets of 5 reps. It looks like someone took a standard bodybuilder workout, changed an exercise or so to be 5 sets of 5 reps and started calling it 5x5.

I'm used to seeing Bill Starr's original routine with modifications and volume/intensity ramping phases built in with periods of deloading. The traditional program, and most athletes/coaches employing something similar, focus primarily on a relatively smaller number of core exercises and don't split the body up much at all (Starr's programs frequently centered around pulls and squats and this hasn't changed much in usage).

I just answered a post the other day where someone here was using a 16 week 5x5 calculator that throws out totally unrealistic numbers (and guarantees overtraining on top of that). I haven't been here in a long time and I'd really like to figure out where the source of all this is coming from because it certainly isn't Bill Starr (not that it's good or bad but it certainly isn't a traditional 5x5 program).

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Just out of curiosity, where is everyone getting their 5x5 program info?

These don't look anything like what I've seen in the past. They resemble 3 day split bodybuilding routines, seem have an over abundance of assistance work, and from what I can tell maybe only 1 exercise is done for 5 sets of 5 reps. It looks like someone took a standard bodybuilder workout, changed an exercise or so to be 5 sets of 5 reps and started calling it 5x5.

I'm used to seeing Bill Starr's original routine with modifications and volume/intensity ramping phases built in with periods of deloading. The traditional program, and most athletes/coaches employing something similar, focus primarily on a relatively smaller number of core exercises and don't split the body up much at all (Starr's programs frequently centered around pulls and squats and this hasn't changed much in usage).

I just answered a post the other day where someone here was using a 16 week 5x5 calculator that throws out totally unrealistic numbers (and guarantees overtraining on top of that). I haven't been here in a long time and I'd really like to figure out where the source of all this is coming from because it certainly isn't Bill Starr (not that it's good or bad but it certainly isn't a traditional 5x5 program).

there are many variations of 5x5..the one that most people on this use is the one tweaked by Needsize..you should pick one compund move per boady part and do that for 5x5 as well as 2 additional exercises for 2x8-10 each..i have used this program as well and had very good results..however my goals are slightly different and now im on a WSB routine

 

[gymtime]

there are many variations of 5x5..the one that most people on this use is the one tweaked by Needsize..you should pick one compund move per boady part and do that for 5x5 as well as 2 additional exercises for 2x8-10 each..i have used this program as well and had very good results..however my goals are slightly different and now im on a WSB routine

That's what I'm basing mine on. But it's not my first time out. I did it for the first time last year, needsize's version, and also had some great results with it.

 

[Madcow2]

there are many variations of 5x5..the one that most people on this use is the one tweaked by Needsize..

I read the sticky thread and located it. It's a decent program but there is only one "5x5". Sort of like white album covers, there's lots of them but if you say "The White Album" everybody knows you mean the Beatles. Walk into any strength complex in the country (collegiate, olympic, or pro) tell them you are doing a 5x5 and then show them this and the response will be "Huh?" And by the way, Starr's 5x5 is still in heavy use today for many offseason athletes. These aren't modifications - the only similarity is one exercise a day using the 5x5 set/rep pattern and some basic progressive overload which is common to any program. It could just as easily be called the West Side Barbell workout because the powerlifts are sometimes present. At least now I know why I keep seeing everyone talk about 5x5 and then seeing 3 day splits and 8-10 reps listed. I have some familiarity with this stuff and I was going nuts.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

I read the sticky thread and located it. It's a decent program but there is only one "5x5". Sort of like white album covers, there's lots of them but if you say "The White Album" everybody knows you mean the Beatles. Walk into any strength complex in the country (collegiate, olympic, or pro) tell them you are doing a 5x5 and then show them this and the response will be "Huh?" And by the way, Starr's 5x5 is still in heavy use today for many offseason athletes. These aren't modifications - the only similarity is one exercise a day using the 5x5 set/rep pattern and some basic progressive overload which is common to any program. It could just as easily be called the West Side Barbell workout because the powerlifts are sometimes present. At least now I know why I keep seeing everyone talk about 5x5 and then seeing 3 day splits and 8-10 reps listed. I have some familiarity with this stuff and I was going nuts.

call it whatever you want..WSB doesnt use 5x5 so it coulndt be that..theres nothing wrong with variation..there are other forms of 5x5 that arent bill starr and theres is nothing wrong with it..ive seen 5x5 used in wave by Dr squat..there are just so many things one can do ..for the most part many on this board as well as some others use NS' version..

 

[Madcow2]

call it whatever you want..WSB doesnt use 5x5 so it coulndt be that..theres nothing wrong with variation..there are other forms of 5x5 that arent bill starr and theres is nothing wrong with it..ive seen 5x5 used in wave by Dr squat..there are just so many things one can do ..for the most part many on this board as well as some others use NS' version..

I'm just saying there is a very famous program specifically called 5x5 and it's been around for ages (there's also Korte's 3x3 but it's a lot less famous). There's tons of people using 5 sets of 5 reps somewhere in their programs (it's pretty common) but these programs aren't given the name 5x5 - most aren't named at all. The WSB thing was a joke, this program is nothing like WSB except for the occasional presense of the powerlifts. Similarly, this program is nothing like Starr's famous 5x5 other than an occasional use 5 sets of 5 reps.

Anyway, the main drivers of this program are going to be the presense of the core powerlifts and progressively overloading them for a period followed by a deloading/reset phase and beginning again. This is sound good stuff. I hate the 3 day split and you'll never see one used outside of bodybuilding circles. The 3 day split was divised because some bodybuilder heard it can take X days for a muscle to recover, so they decided to rotate body parts. Then came along the overtraining thing and Mentzer's second crusade on brief and infrequent and the 3 day split wound up covering a whole week. The key here is that for loading and recovery purposes the body is most accurately viewed as a system rather than a single muscle (why do squats and deads make muscles bigger while concentration curls don't - more effective loading of the entire system). It is really hard to get better (driving system adaptation) at an exercise you only do once per week. The frequency is too streched out to take proper advantage of the compensation mechanisms.

What is the answer?
Hit your primary exercises more than once per week.
What's the problem?
Limited recovery capacity.
What's the solution?
Pick and choose exercises very carefully - targeted assistance work is applied when required and not thrown at random because you need to be a miser with your recuperative powers (Example: I get 10 units of progress from a benchpress and only 0.5 units from a machine - let me get the machine stuff out and see if I can't get another bench session in even if only for 6 units since it is still better than the 0.5). The system is progressively loaded over a time period until overreaching occurs. This can be done in a series of waves ensuring that the deficit created can be recovered from and a continuation of the loading phase can commence (or a reset following the final period). I personally favor a phase heavier in volume to create a deficit followed by a deload to allow me to catch my breath followed by a phase with lower volume and higher intensity which allows further recovery from the deficit and then another shot at overreaching. There are certainly other ways to do it (none of them differ to a massive degree though - this is how most programs work) and likely marginally more effective ones depending upon the purpose and the athlete (the 3 day split isn't one of these in case anyone missed that). This one happens to be a good general purpose one and easy to explain and follow. Similar versions are used by some of the finest athletes and coaches in the world.

I'm just a schlep using their stuff with a beat up body hoping to be able to lift again without too much pain. And let's not kid anyone, even were I healthy I don't have what it takes to compete at the top in OL or PL. Kind of a shame to have talent in areas that you don't love and not in those that you do but welcome to life's Happy Meal - we hope you like the toy. Hopefully somebody finds this useful or interesting. There's plenty of stuff out there on it and some good sources are linked or referenced toward the bottom half of this post: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4323293&postcount=3