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5 x 5 & Needsize/Gymtime

The Dude

The Dude

New member
I've said it once, but I have to say it again, that 5 x 5 (or in my case 4 x 5) program for strength kicks ass. Based on everything else I've tried in the past five years, it is far and away the best for safely lifting heavy and building strength. Dudes, I thank you once again for turning me onto this thing!
 
Glad to hear it worked for you!!! I constantly get people telling me that you can't grow from 5 reps, but everyone I've ever put on the program gained tons of mass and strength from it. Myself, I went from 175lbs when I found the program, I was 228lbs 3 weeks ago before I started to diet, so it sure worked for me.
 
are you guys doing 5 X 5 at the same weight, and wehn you can get all 5 reps on all 5 sets u increase the weight, or are u doing pyramiding up in weight for all five sets and the last set being the working set?
 
Bill Starr has been recommending similar routines for about 25 years now. Programs like this have been a mainstay of the strength and conditioning field.
 
Would the 5x5 method be used for all lifts, or just the compound ones?

Plus, bump for the guys questions above.

Joker
 
Coumpound as far as Starr was recommending. I have no idea what Needsize will recommend.

The basic Starr routine looked like this (going from memory as I am not going to run over to my other office right now to dig it up).

Three days week, generally Mon/Wed/Fri
Based around three lifts, Bench, squat, and power clean.
Each day would have one lift heavy, one medium, one light. Order would change as the heaviest lift was done first. Pretty simple.
3-5 sets of five, heavy = 100% five rep max, medium = 90% 5RM, light 80% 5RM.

Assistance work was minimal.
 
The routine that I designed for myself was done with the help of a nationally ranked powerlifter (squats 850+ in competition) and a competitive bodybuilder that I used to train with, it is a variation of the oldschool (yes corn, it is oldschool) routine.

My basic routine is 5 sets of 5 reps, on a heavy compound exercise, followed by 2 sets of 2 different exercises for 8-10 reps. I do it for every bodypart, with a few variations depending, ie, you may not want to do as many sets for a smaller bodypart like bi's. I have gained 40 or so pounds of mass since I started this routine a few years back, and have gained enough strength that I can match a lot of powerlifters in strength. When I started to program, i was deadlifting 315lbs for reps, a few weeks ago I did 3 sets of on 535lbs, no belt or wraps, so it's safe to say my strength has gone up.

Here are a few examples:
Chest
flat bench 5x5
incline dumbell press 2 sets 8-10 reps
incline dumbell flyes 2 sets 8-10 reps

Bi's
barbell curl 5x5
incline dumbell curls 2 sets 8-10
preacher curls 2 sets 8-10 reps

The key for me is to make sure I use the same weight for all 5 sets of 5 reps, as soon as I can do that in good form, I add 5-10lbs for the next workout, and so on.
 
Sure that qualifies main masser is 5z5 with assistance for 2 sets of two different exercises - similar to Gv training on the assistance work as well.
 
Cornholio said:
Sure that qualifies main masser is 5z5 with assistance for 2 sets of two different exercises - similar to Gv training on the assistance work as well.
Click to expand...

I feel that most thickness gained seems to come from the heavy 5's, but the other 2 exercises hit the slower twitch fibres and contribute to the overall gains; at least that's my take on why it's worked so well for me
 
Can't take much credit for this one bro, this is all needsize. I've never tried the 5x5 thing, but I just might. I've been looking for a new routine for a while now.
 
Last_Exit said:
Needsize, post your routine for each body part, wich exercises.. ???
Click to expand...

This'll take a minute, I don't always follow the same exercises, but the key is to make sure the 5x5 is a compound exercise.

Tri's
close grip bench or weighted dips 5x5
skull crushers 2 x 8-10
overhead extensions 2x8-10 (prefer ez curl bar

back (back and shoulders are same day for me)
deads 5x5 (I sometimes only do 3x5)
pulldowns 2x8-10
rows 2x8-10

Shoulders
military press 5x5
side laterals 4x8-10
shrugs 3-4x8-10
rear laterals 3x8-10

Quads
squats 5x5(ass to the floor)
leg press or hack squats 2x8-10
leg extensions 2x8-10

I think that's it, I'm not posting what I do for calves (it is different, as my calves suck ass)
 
gymtime said:
Can't take much credit for this one bro, this is all needsize. I've never tried the 5x5 thing, but I just might. I've been looking for a new routine for a while now.
Click to expand...

Oops! Someone else here loves this routine too and I thought it was you. Oh well, whoever the other dude is, you have my thanks as well!
 
needsize said:


This'll take a minute, I don't always follow the same exercises, but the key is to make sure the 5x5 is a compound exercise.

Tri's
close grip bench or weighted dips 5x5
skull crushers 2 x 8-10
overhead extensions 2x8-10 (prefer ez curl bar

back (back and shoulders are same day for me)
deads 5x5 (I sometimes only do 3x5)
pulldowns 2x8-10
rows 2x8-10

Shoulders
military press 5x5
side laterals 4x8-10
shrugs 3-4x8-10
rear laterals 3x8-10

Quads
squats 5x5(ass to the floor)
leg press or hack squats 2x8-10
leg extensions 2x8-10

I think that's it, I'm not posting what I do for calves (it is different, as my calves suck ass)
Click to expand...

How many days a week do you train? Would it be good to split it up like this:

Mon-Chest,Bi's
Tue-off
Wed-Legs, Tris
Thur-
Fri-Back,Shoulders

How does that look?

Unfortunately I cant train in the weekends so I'm trying to fit it into the weekdays but get adequate recovery.

Thanks
 
Karma said:


How many days a week do you train? Would it be good to split it up like this:

Mon-Chest,Bi's
Tue-off
Wed-Legs, Tris
Thur-
Fri-Back,Shoulders

How does that look?

Unfortunately I cant train in the weekends so I'm trying to fit it into the weekdays but get adequate recovery.

Thanks
Click to expand...

i only train 4 days a week, this is how it's split

day 1 Chest/calves/abs
day 2 Back/Shoulders
day 3 Rest
day 4 Rest
day 5 Bi's/Tri's/Forarms
day 6 Quads/Hams/Calves
day 7 rest

So you could easily do that routine mon-fri, it wuld just take some re-arranging
 
needsize.
can you post what a typical back workout for you would consist of?

something like
deadlift 5x5 all worksets,
pullups 2x8-10
seated row 2x8-10

seems like pullups could be done 5x5 as well...would that be too much though, with 5x5 on deadlift?
 
i had a quick question for you man ... the 5x5 ... is that 5 sets of 5 reps, all the same weight? or are one or two of those warmups, as in cornholios program?
 
Nope, the point is to be able to do all five sets on the same weight, when you can add a few (and keep the increments small so you can keep adding) pounds to the bar for the next week. This way, if any of those 5 sets is to failure, it's only the last one, which gives you a great opportunity to concentrate on form and really isolating the muscle. Most people say you can't, but I get incredible pumps from sets of 5.
 
yeah man. i got a huge pump today. but i did one warmup set of 135 for 10, then 4x5 with 225, and it was cake. ill try 5x5 next week. might even try 235. thanks bro.
 
that's great, I think the key is that the reps are slow and in control, which makes it easy to get a pump off of 5 reps, and you end up putting so much weight on your exercises that you get some great muscle thickness out of it.
 
bump for another question for NS -


do you juice? at my age, i won't, so i'm curious if this routine here, the days on and the days off, could be used for a regular lifter like myself?
 
I may give this a try as well. I too have a question for ya needsize. For those sets following the 5x5, are you using the same weight for those 2 sets of 8-10reps? Thanks!
 
Capn, I started hitting the juice a year ago, but that program has been my favorite for a long time before I went near it. I follow the basic program I outlined most of the time, when I'm "on" I just add more sets

BlkWS6, I try and use the same weight for both sets, but the key is to get good, solid reps in the 8-10 range to hit the slower twitch fibres, but I think most of the mass comes from constantly increasing the weight on the heavy 5's
 
thanks for the reply - i'll definite be switching to this routine next week when i start bulking, and i'll be sure to give a progress report in 10 weeks or so. with a diet as good as mine, shit, i'm pumped to start this up.
 
Cap'n Cooke said:
thanks for the reply - i'll definite be switching to this routine next week when i start bulking, and i'll be sure to give a progress report in 10 weeks or so. with a diet as good as mine, shit, i'm pumped to start this up.
Click to expand...

Keep us posted. I give this routine credit for where my physique is at now, as well as for the heavy lifts I'm putting up as well
 
Cap'n, make sure when you start the routine that you pick weights that you can hit your reps easily, you want it to challenge you somewhat but for the first couple of weeks concentrate on getting the feel of it. I'm pretty sure the mass gained on this routine is the result of constantly adding weight to your exercises over a period of time, forcing your body to adapt. So keep the increases small and just concentrate on adding weight week after week.
 
I performed a similiar workout tonight based on what you have posted needsize, and it went really fast. How long are you normally in the gym? Maybe I have been using way too much volume over the last couple of years, but I was done tri's in like 30-40min. :confused: Including the 5x5 I did 9 total sets for tri's
 
needsize, yeah, first week will be an approximation, then it'll be fine tuned, then I can start adding 5lb/wk or so.

one more thing - my legs are like fucking trunks, but I'd like to catch up my bi's. would it not give them enough time to breathe if they were trained 2x/wk?
 
Cap'n Cooke said:
needsize, yeah, first week will be an approximation, then it'll be fine tuned, then I can start adding 5lb/wk or so.

one more thing - my legs are like fucking trunks, but I'd like to catch up my bi's. would it not give them enough time to breathe if they were trained 2x/wk?
Click to expand...

i don't know if I would do the 5x5 2x per week for bi's, but what works for me when I'm trying to specialize on arms is to hit them again after back, but much lighter and faster. It places a different kind of stress on your bi's and your body, and I've used this approach ovver the past year to put 1 1/2" on my arms

BlkWS6, I'm usually there for 1-1 1/2 hours, but my warmup takes at least 20 mintues ( alot of old injuries)
 
How does this look?>

PUSH.
Flat BB Press 5 x 5
Dips 5 x 5
One-arm Laterals 2 x 6-8
Skullcrushers 5 x 5

PULL.
WG Chins 5 x 5
One-arm DB Rows 5 x 5
Shrugs 2 x 6-8
BB Curls 5 x 5
Hammers 2 x 6-8

LEGS.
Squats 5 x 5
Leg Presses 2 x 6-8
Goodmornings 5 x 5
Calf Raises 5 x 5

:D:D
 
I advocate the 5x5 as well. I do 1-2 warmup sets of 10 reps with a comfortable weight. I usually will get my heart rate up right (practice my kicks, or hit the bag a few times to rile myself up). Next, I stretch. Then I do my warmup set(s). Then... train like animal, eat like a horse, sleep like a baby. Great words by B.
 
The 2 sets of two different exercises for 8-10 reps...are these sets done to failure?

I'd love to try this routine, but not sure how it'll work since I'm cutting right now.
 
My warm up is a little more thorough than that as I dont like to take chances with any more injuries. I aim to warm up just enough so that I'm strong, but the muscle isnt fatigued.
Here's an example for squats:
treadmill for 5 mintues
45lbs(just the bar) for 10 reps
135lbs for 8 reps
225lbs for 5 reps
315lbs for 5 reps
365lbs for 2-3 reps
425lbs for 5x5
This is just enough for me to warm up and get the feel of the heavy weights before stepping out with the big weight, but not enough to fatigue the muscle. And youre right, the 8-10 rep sets are generally to failure


JG1, you'll get much better results if you wait until you are able to eat big, you'll need it to make this routine work
 
thx for the warmup info.

a question on your leg workouts...i didn't see any specific hamstring exercises (maybe i misssed them somewhere). what do you do for hams?

also, if you pick a 5 x 5 exercise for legs, say squats, do you need to keep using this as your core exercise week after week? or can you alternate with SLDLs being your core some weeks (or would this defeat the purpose)?
 
I never mentioned the hamstring stuff, leg curls or stiff leg deads, a few sets at 8-10 reps would cover them.
As for the 5x5, it really works best if you stick with the same exercise (and there really arent that many good compound ones to choose from anyway), and concentrate on adding small amounts of weight. For example, say you start off by squatting 5x5 on 135lbs. If you get all you reps, next week add a small amount like 5lbs, and do 5x5 on 140lbs. Keep adding in small increments like that, it doesnt seem like much, but if you did that for 8 weeks you'd have added 40lbs to the bar and your body WILL grow to adapt to that. But be sure to also do the assistance sets on another exercise, like leg press, for 8-10 reps. The combination of hitting fast and slow twitch fibres in the same workout is where the magic lies
 
thx again...this is very helpful.

do you think it would be beneficial at all to separate hams and quads into their own days...with SLDLs being the 5 x 5 movement on ham day and squats being the 5 x 5 on quad day? the reason i'm asking is because i'm really trying to focus on hams/glutes (i'm a girl trying to get some "junk in her trunk").

i seem to get some nice results from SLDLs and almost feel like i'll be cheating myself if i only let myself do 2 sets of these...maybe i'm just being silly???

any opinions?
 
I personally dont like to split up hams and quads, but thats not to say it wouldnt work. If you like SLDL that much, you can do more than 2 sets, I generally do between 3-5 sets for hamstrings anyway
 
I do situps on a decline bench. I slowly lower myself about halfway down to where I feel the most resitance, then hold for a slow count of 5, then bring myself most of the way back up. Thats one rep, try to do 5x5 on that, by the last set you'll be shaking like a leaf. This is the only ab routine I've followed for around the last 3 years and it quickly built up some bulging abs that are really strong too. When you can do 5x5, either add reps or weight. I presently do 5 sets of 10 reps with a 45lb plate
 
You can but I've never seen the point, when training them with weight like that they will repond well to only 1x, I dont love training that much that I'll train something more than I have to...
 
For Back days are deadlifts the only option or would Upright or Seated Rows work for the 5x5 (although niether targets the lower back :-/)?
 
Needsize do you use a longer rest interval for the 5x5 sets than the 2x8 sets, what are your rest times like? I am definately going to start this program Monday following the exercises you gave. Currently I am 160 at 5'11 (nearing 6") so I am in need of some serious gains. I only started lifting religiously about 6 months ago but I only got in about 3 months before I dislocated my shoulder in a baseball game. Recently finished therapy (took a long time since it was the 4th dislocation and opted to not have surgery) and am lookin for a good program. It should be interesting to see the results I get. Thanks for the info.
 
How does this routine look?

Monday..

Squat 5x5
Flat Bench 5x5
Wide-Grip Chin's 5x5
Calve Raises


Wednesday..

Deadlift 5x5
Incline Barbell Press 5x5
Barbell Rows 5x5
BB Curls 5x5
Calve Raises

Friday..

Front-Squat 5x5
Weighted Dip's 5x5
Power-Clean 5x5
Close-Grip Bench
Calve Raises
 
I would suggest fairly long rest periods on the 5x5 portion as the key is being able to hit all your sets so you can add more weight for the next week; somewhere between 3-5 minutes depending on the bodypart. On the 2x8-10 part I would cut the rest down
 
I think I'm gonna switch over to the 5 by 5, been doing some of my lifts 5 x 5 (compound), I like the way it is, allows me to put in a good amount of reps total, and I still get a decent pump, then use the smaller exercises 2 or 3 sets of 8 to get it really pumped....

this is a really cool method I think...

and needsize is proof it works well :)
 
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