2 Questions for madcow2.

[psychedout]

I love to ask you questions because I always get a good response.

Anyways latin lover (if I haven't scared you off), here they are:

1) Suppose you have reached your goals sizewize, bf%, strength, etc and just are interested in maintaining your physique indefinetly. Is single factor training such a bad thing?

2) Can muscle density be increased? Like say you have 18 inch arms, can you increase the amount of muscle in that arm without actually gaining size? (Assuming bodyfat % stays the same)

Thanks.

 

[Madcow2]

I love to ask you questions because I always get a good response.

Anyways latin lover (if I haven't scared you off), here they are:

1) Suppose you have reached your goals sizewize, bf%, strength, etc and just are interested in maintaining your physique indefinetly. Is single factor training such a bad thing?

2) Can muscle density be increased? Like say you have 18 inch arms, can you increase the amount of muscle in that arm without actually gaining size? (Assuming bodyfat % stays the same)

Thanks.

Okay my latin fifi.

1) Maybe, depends on the person and where he's at. If he's out there on his personal curve near the limit of his strength potential or fairly advanced, there's just no way he's going to maintain that kind of performance by training with the same relative volume day in and day out. That said, if he's just a decent gym guy running around, sure it'll work in maintaining your physique and strength - look at most natural lifters using these program, it keeps them stuck exactly where they are at. Sure, they might be trying to grow but most of them maintain quite nicely

It's not like periodization is a big hassle - this is pretty easy to plot out stuff. It needn't be super hard or only the 5x5. Just train with more than you can tolerate indefinitely (i.e. it can be a lot more than you can use on a single factor program) and then cut back for a week or so every 3-6 weeks. As long as it's arranged decently (my definition of decently - which probably means a relatively good program) you'll do fine. Heck one guy just trains and cuts back the frequency and volume by feel when he begins to fatigue, when he recovers he kicks it back up again. If you aren't looking to optimize it and have enough experience to identify the signs of overreaching/fatigue, that's a viable alternative.

2) What is density exactly? Thinking from physics, if the skin has a given elasticity and so does the composition of a muscle, anything more you cram in there would expand and stretch it resulting in size. There are different kinds of hypertrophy - maybe some are theoretical or less proven. Not something I spend a lot of time thinking about. Maybe something here floats your boat: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=50&postcount=5

 

[Sub-Zero]

 

[psychedout]

Okay my latin fifi.

1) Maybe, depends on the person and where he's at. If he's out there on his personal curve near the limit of his strength potential or fairly advanced, there's just no way he's going to maintain that kind of performance by training with the same relative volume day in and day out. That said, if he's just a decent gym guy running around, sure it'll work in maintaining your physique and strength - look at most natural lifters using these program, it keeps them stuck exactly where they are at. Sure, they might be trying to grow but most of them maintain quite nicely

It's not like periodization is a big hassle - this is pretty easy to plot out stuff. It needn't be super hard or only the 5x5. Just train with more than you can tolerate indefinitely (i.e. it can be a lot more than you can use on a single factor program) and then cut back for a week or so every 3-6 weeks. As long as it's arranged decently (my definition of decently - which probably means a relatively good program) you'll do fine. Heck one guy just trains and cuts back the frequency and volume by feel when he begins to fatigue, when he recovers he kicks it back up again. If you aren't looking to optimize it and have enough experience to identify the signs of overreaching/fatigue, that's a viable alternative.

2) What is density exactly? Thinking from physics, if the skin has a given elasticity and so does the composition of a muscle, anything more you cram in there would expand and stretch it resulting in size. There are different kinds of hypertrophy - maybe some are theoretical or less proven. Not something I spend a lot of time thinking about. Maybe something here floats your boat: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=50&postcount=5

Honestly, your viable alternative is sort of what I am doing now. As you know I just finished up your 5x5 and have kept exercise selection relatively the same but just changed some rep ranges. I guess technically I would be nearing week 3 of loading. I honestly think I am going to deload at week 4 though because I can just feel the overtraining about to hit me. I would do about 3-4 sets of failure anywhere from 10-3 reps. Now for deloading I basically work my way up to 1 maximum effort set (after the 1st week of deloading).

i.e. While loading I would do:
-warmups
-225 x 10 failure
-275 x 7 failure
-295 x 4 failure

then deloading would be something like:
- 225 x 5
- 275 x 3
- 295 x max effort set (bumping up 5-10 pounds each workout)

I know it is somewhat crude, but I do think it will work.


As for question two, I think maybe I got it more from the way 'some' bodybuilders talk about powerlifters. They seem to think that you can increase muscle without increasing size and thats how they get stronger while remaining in the same class, when in reality its a result of nerual connection right? (The ability to recruit a maximum number of muscle fibres?) Blah, anyway, that's not really that important.

 

[BOOEY]

2) Can muscle density be increased? Like say you have 18 inch arms, can you increase the amount of muscle in that arm without actually gaining size? (Assuming bodyfat % stays the same)

Thanks.

You can't create muscle cells, only make the one's you have larger or smaller. Not sure if that was what you were asking.

 

[Madcow2]

i.e. While loading I would do:
-warmups
-225 x 10 failure
-275 x 7 failure
-295 x 4 failure

then deloading would be something like:
- 225 x 5
- 275 x 3
- 295 x max effort set (bumping up 5-10 pounds each workout)

I know it is somewhat crude, but I do think it will work.

I personally think there are problems. Training to failure as a goal week in and week out is a pretty shitty way to handle stuff. There is nothing special that happens at concentric failure regardless of how many HIT fans keep saying it is magical, required, and all you need (then why the drop sets I ask?). Burns your CNS out (you are feeling it now) and drastically decreases your ability to load stimuli - basically the fatigue factor is getting maxed before you can properly load the body. Also, you are going to failure with a light weight first so by the time you get all the way to your potentially best and most stimulative set, you are already burned.

I don't mean to crap on you. It may work it may not. I think most people would respond better doing it a different way. I think just about everyone who really has a good grasp of this field (far better than mine) will tell you the same thing. You are periodizing, and that's good but your loading phase is a CNS nightmare more than a gain stimulator. Even in the deload you have cut the volume but you still have the heavy failure set there. This is a CNS burner and that's what you are trying to fix. If you want a way to setup sets and reps check out the Prilepin's table link in my thread index. Failing is okay, particularly at peak weeks but the whole training to failure thing is not desirable for week in/week out as it burns the CNS out too fast. You are feeling this now.

 

[lavi]

madcow2, i was wondering what do you think of http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/russian.htm ?

i was think of doing it for the big 3 and adding in 3x10 rows and shrugs on the lighter days (my traps r weaksauce)

good routine or not really?

 

[Madcow2]

madcow2, i was wondering what do you think of http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/russian.htm ?

i was think of doing it for the big 3 and adding in 3x10 rows and shrugs on the lighter days (my traps r weaksauce)

good routine or not really?

1) looks like the light day moves around a lot
2) I think the progression is okay, I'd probably avoid throwing in anything extra if you intend to deadlift (by big 3 do you mean power clean?). Deadlift is very taxing and to be honest, anyone pulling 3x per week doesn't have much left in the tank.

Check out Stephen Korte's 3x3 program on deepsquatter in the upper right corner: http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/index.htm
It's similar to what you want to do. It's periodized into 2 phases. I've run it before. If you have a good deadlift this thing is a nightmare which is why there is no assistance work - hence my #2 caution above.

 

[lavi]

1) looks like the light day moves around a lot
2) I think the progression is okay, I'd probably avoid throwing in anything extra if you intend to deadlift (by big 3 do you mean power clean?). Deadlift is very taxing and to be honest, anyone pulling 3x per week doesn't have much left in the tank.

Check out Stephen Korte's 3x3 program on deepsquatter in the upper right corner: http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/index.htm
It's similar to what you want to do. It's periodized into 2 phases. I've run it before. If you have a good deadlift this thing is a nightmare which is why there is no assistance work - hence my #2 caution above.

for the russian strength program, the light days seem to be every other day.

ive actually seen the 3x3 and like it too. its just that even though im into pl, i dont think its a good idea in terms of injury, posture, and balanced strength to neglect rows/pullups for weeks on end. havent gotten myself to do that yet. ive heard of people having great success with the 3x3 but i havent been able to bring myself to ignore my lats yet.

 

[Madcow2]

Okay - I'm just saying that if you've never pulled deads 3x per week, it might be a bit harder on the body than you think. Give it a shot you can always drop them later on if you find yourself over-taxed.

 

[blut wump]

Has anyone here tried the Korte 3x3 with a sub for deads like a high pull or goodmornings?

 

[Madcow2]

Either of those will free up significant capacity. The program is structured to allow for a lot of deadlifting so once you free up all that capacity it is going to significantly change the parameters.

 

[psychedout]

You can't create muscle cells, only make the one's you have larger or smaller. Not sure if that was what you were asking.

You can create more, its called hyperplasia (the splitting of muscle cells).
Many people believe it is not possible without anabolic steroid or growth hormone useage. I am unsure of the literature on the subject but do believe it occurs without the substance useage, albeit at a much lower rate.

One link to hyperplasia is through anabolic steroid use. A recent article in the American College of Sports Medicine's Medicine and Science in Sport and Exercise found evidence for muscle fiber hyperplasia in anabolic steroid using powerlifters(1).

Reference

(1) F Kadi, A Eriksson, S Holmner, LE Thornell. Effects of anabolic steroids on the muscle cells of strength-trained athletes. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1999 Nov; 31(11):1528-34

 

[psychedout]

I personally think there are problems. Training to failure as a goal week in and week out is a pretty shitty way to handle stuff. There is nothing special that happens at concentric failure regardless of how many HIT fans keep saying it is magical, required, and all you need (then why the drop sets I ask?). Burns your CNS out (you are feeling it now) and drastically decreases your ability to load stimuli - basically the fatigue factor is getting maxed before you can properly load the body. Also, you are going to failure with a light weight first so by the time you get all the way to your potentially best and most stimulative set, you are already burned.

I don't mean to crap on you. It may work it may not. I think most people would respond better doing it a different way. I think just about everyone who really has a good grasp of this field (far better than mine) will tell you the same thing. You are periodizing, and that's good but your loading phase is a CNS nightmare more than a gain stimulator. Even in the deload you have cut the volume but you still have the heavy failure set there. This is a CNS burner and that's what you are trying to fix. If you want a way to setup sets and reps check out the Prilepin's table link in my thread index. Failing is okay, particularly at peak weeks but the whole training to failure thing is not desirable for week in/week out as it burns the CNS out too fast. You are feeling this now.

Blah, I think that you are right the more that I think about it. I was pondering about it all day at work today; simply too crude.

Anyways, in 2 weeks I am starting a 10 week HST cycle which should be interesting. I'll spend this week finding my rep-maxes and then next week will be a light week, then it will be time to giver. Also using a bit of chemical assistance here as well.

 

[Madcow2]

Blah, I think that you are right the more that I think about it. I was pondering about it all day at work today; simply too crude.

Anyways, in 2 weeks I am starting a 10 week HST cycle which should be interesting. I'll spend this week finding my rep-maxes and then next week will be a light week, then it will be time to giver. Also using a bit of chemical assistance here as well.

For the future the best thing to do with drug enhancement is to add volume either in the form of more sets or more workouts. Burning out your CNS going to failure is not the answer. You don't want to avoid failure but it should come as a result of not meeting a specific goal in your planning (which accounts for volume, intensity (%1RM), frequency) rather than just repping randomly until you can't do anymore. There is nothing magic about the final reps, that last rep does nothing more than the others besides exert a tremendous drain on your nervous system. You might consider adding some excess volume to HST should you require it. It's tough to tell without a baseline natural reference. Keep me informed because I'm really interested in hearing how the 5x5 transitions into the higher reps - there should be some good synergy but I'd like to hear some non-theoretical experiences.

 

[lavi]

Okay - I'm just saying that if you've never pulled deads 3x per week, it might be a bit harder on the body than you think. Give it a shot you can always drop them later on if you find yourself over-taxed.

alrighty thanks.

how do you feel about neglecting the lats as a powerlifter? do they matter or not really since you dont really use them too much directly?

same goes for lateral delts, mine are weak as fuck since they seem unimportant to a pler. makes me look smaller than i am which is cool though .

 

[Madcow2]

alrighty thanks.

how do you feel about neglecting the lats as a powerlifter? do they matter or not really since you dont really use them too much directly?

same goes for lateral delts, mine are weak as fuck since they seem unimportant to a pler. makes me look smaller than i am which is cool though .

Lats are very important. They are crucial to the benchpress.

Regarding delts, the issue with PLs is that there isn't an offseason and the overwhelming majority never take a break from focusing 100% on increasing the competition lifts to do some general fitness work. Pressing overhead (push press, standing military) is fundemental to the body. Increases in the push press will carry over significantly to other upper body work including the bench. You won't see someone who is a strong presser overhead have a shitty bench. More importantly, imbalances in the shoulder leave one ripe for injury. Granted, this is a generalization about PLers but it is fairly accurate to the majority.

 

[wayneboard1]

Okay my latin fifi.
]

Get a room.