What Is The True Need For Isolations?

[Vanchatron]

When we first started out in bodybuilding, I'm sure most (if not all) of us couldn't live without isolation exercises such as Barbell Curls, Side Lateral Raises, Tricep Extensions etc.

After training for 6 years with more than 50% of my routines composed of isolation exercises, I feel as if I've just been wasting my time. I'm now on Bill Starr's 5x5 advanced training routine which doesn't include ANY isolation exercises, and my strength/size seems to be increasing nicely.

I'm just wondering why people seem to rely so much on isolation exercises (like I used to). What is the TRUE need for them? There has to be a reason, otherwise everybody would just ditch them completely & work with heavy compounds in order to build size/strength. Even pro bodybuilders use isolation exercises.

Is it just to bring out more "detail" in the muscle (yes I said detail, NOT definition)?

I'm just sat here wondering whether I'll ever go back to incorporating isolation exercises in my routine again, if there's no real need for them. If there IS a need for them, then I'm curious as to why Bill Starr's Tried/Tested/Proven (whatever you wanna call it) 5x5 routine doesn't include any isolations.

Thanks.

 

[SaiBoT]

The exercises you mentioned do have their place on a bodybuilding routine. In fact, [Strength coach] Bill Starr values Side Lateral Rises on some of his intermediate and advanced programs. Nevertheless those exercises are secondary and you should focus on the big compound moves to build a solid strength and mass foundation. Bench presses, dips, pull overs, chin ups, bent over rows, deadlifts variations, squats variations, bradford presses, push-presses olympic moves etc.

 

[[CinnamonBuns]]

in my opinion they arnt that necesary, unless you want to bring up a certain muscle more than the others.
but once you get the proportions right its logical that compounds will keep everything growing relatively evenly, just larger.
love those compounds!

 

[Blane]

i use the isolation movements at the end of the workout. when im feeling tired they are safer. IMO

 

[Seattleite]

I think what the original poster was asking is what exactly benefit is there to the muscles when you perform an isolation exercise? In my experience, there is no need to do any isolation exercises unless you are juicing. Natural lifters will probably see little to no gains from things like wrist curls, calf raises, or pushdowns.

 

[enigma4dub]

i think its really a matter of getting from point a to point b faster. if you are steadily putting on weight and getting stronger then continue on. isolation exercises are often the basis for routines for people who have no business doing them. i transcended from iso work to exclusively working with the compounds. training like this has allowed my physique and strength to progress faster than before. if i feel there is something lacking in my physique that needs to be addressed through isolation i will do so. i just havent felt the need.

 

[dabuffguy]

Side lateral raises are a must IMO. Tricep extensions and curls not so much.

The action of the deltoid muscle is to raise the arm. You don't get that motion by doing anything else but side raises. You do get good tricep and bicep action doing presses and rows, but you dont get as good as deltoid action doing shoulder press on the side and rear delts.

Intense high volume side latral raise workouts have really made my side delts fill out big time.

 

[Vanchatron]

I posted the same question on another site and got the following responses:

Another blind follower of cookie cutter routine nonsense. Crap by five,ripptoes, etc. Isos are for bringing up weak points for those who need them. Some with blessed genetics might not need much if any of them at all yet almost everyone could benefit from combining them with the basic meat and potatoes compound exercises.

Bill Starr's 5x5 and Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength programs do notcontain any isolation exercises because they are not bodybuilding routines to begin with.

Rippedtoes, 5 by 5 and the rest of that simplistic garbage are strength oriented routines to me which get many new lifters into the wrong frame of mind in my opinion, which is heavier weight equals more mass everywhere all problems fixed.
I'm all for basic bodybuilding routines just not the pseudo football strength routine cookie cutter sh*t around here.

Is this guy talking out of his ass or is he correct? I'm not sure what to believe now. The Bill Starr 5x5 routine says the following:

This program is very effective at increasing strength and lean body mass, it focuses on the core lifts that drive full body hypertrophy and getting those lifts up as quickly as possible. There is little isolation work and what is generally used is targeted and specific, not the typical shotgun array of ‘let’s do everything and the kitchen sink’ that serves mainly to dilute a program’s effectiveness.

This completely goes against what the guy in the quotes above is saying about 5x5. He's saying it's NOT a bodybuilding routine, it's a strength routine, and he went on to say that if I really want to add size/detail etc I should look for a proper bodybuilding routine instead of "all the 5x5 crap".

This guy seemed to be the type of guy a lot of people on the forum looked up to when it came to asking for advice etc, so I'm assuming he knows what he's talking about, but what he said completely contradicts what it says on the 5x5 website - http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm

The first guy says everybody could benefit from including isolations in a routine. Am I meant to now go ahead & add isolation exercises into my 5x5 routine, even though a quote from the 5x5 website says:

Every bodybuilder seems to have Attention Deficit Disorder and an overwhelming desire to customize everything. The bottom line is that these are all the most effective exercises and just about anything one does will result in less gains. As a rule those people who want to change it don't know enough to make proper alterations - those who do know enough, don't have much to change.The two guys who are responsible for this program are some of the best on the planet at bulking lifters and making people stronger.

Post Continued Below...

 

[Vanchatron]

I have cliche aspirations/goals to be massively big with a relatively low bodyfat, like many other people out there. If I could look like Jay Cutler then sure, I'd jump at the chance, but for now I'm just focusing on getting as big as I possibly can whilst keeping bodyfat in check.

I'm actually on week 4 of the 5x5 Madcow routine, and having heard some of the things said I'm not sure whether to complete the cycle at all now.



My previous routine (the one before doing Madcow) would look like this (routines are shown in attachments):

I do routine One for 6 weeks using 3 sets of 6-8 reps. I then take a week off & do routine Two for 6 weeks using 3 sets of 6-8 reps. I then take another week off & revert back to routine One but this time I change the rep range from 6-8 to 10-12, and so on for routine Two.

Workout One - http://img26.picoodle.com/img/img26/4/7/13/f_WorkoutOnem_e3c48a8.jpg
Workout Two - http://img32.picoodle.com/img/img32/4/7/13/f_WorkoutTwom_f06b3af.jpg



Would you say the way I trained before Madcow 5x5 is sufficient enough for growth/strength etc & because of periodization, it would help prevent any plateaus along the way?

Having heard great things about Madcow 5x5, I decided to give it a shot, but 4 weeks into it now (and having heard what that other guy that I quoted a couple posts back had to say about it) I just think I'm wasting my time with it. I have 6 years training experience under my belt, and have gotten to around 250lbs. I'm 21 years old & did a single cycle of Test-E/Nolva a couple months back. This doesn't mean I'm still not learning at all (I feel there's more out there that I HAVEN'T learned than I HAVE learned), I just feel that I'm not completely "new" to the sport anymore though. My diet is great, plus I'm an insulin dependent diabetic which means a bodybuilding diet goes hand in hand with the results I'm trying to achieve as it requires you to eat 6-7 times a day etc, no sugar etc. It's just the training that I still (after 6 years) haven't got my head around properly yet.

- Would doing a BODYBUILDING oriented routine bring along strength gains with it?
- Should I even be doing Madcow 5x5 for the type of goals I want (see top of this post)?
- Is my routine even any good? (Bear in mind, it hasn't been tried/tested like the 5x5 routine has been, it's just my own routine I made up & tried to include everything from rep range changes, exercise changes & periodization etc).

These are some of the questions on my mind at the moment.

I've been at this weight for a long time now & my body hasn't gone through any MAJOR physical changes, so I'm kind of losing motivation now, which is one of the reasons for wanting to try Madcow 5x5 as I heard you can get great size/strength gains off of it.

I'd really appreciate a little more of your help with this. You've all been great so far, and seem to know your sh*t, thanks!

 

[enigma4dub]

you can not know how this type of training is going to benefit you with only 4 weeks. yes the 5x5 is a cookie cutter it is meant as a tool. the idea is to get the trainee to understand simple periodization and eventually design his own program. go ahead and throw some exercises in for arms it wont hurt.

the idea is progress. whatever can take you there faster. your going to get a lot of responses like the one you got on the other board. your asking people to accept all of the fallacies and voodoo bodybuilding they believe is wrong... not an easy task

i was in the same boat. i thought each muscle group needed a week to recover . that i could make my inner chest grow and develop the magical quadsweep from countless dropset extensions.always in search of the magic pump lol.

i think it comes down to, the compounds with a barbell are simply much more difficult to do than cables and hammerstrength/smith geighness. and its the fastest way to pack on muscle.