LOW DOSE: Basic explanation of methyl liver metabolism?

[Planteater]

Hi there,

I am thinking of a low dose or pulse of helladrol (probably with low dose TEst e), and have one question, more on the science end than on your experiences end of things.

1. Is the anabolic effects of orals dependant on overwhelming the liver, as I know it is with some other medications? I know oral designers are methyl toxic, but my question is do you only see benefits due to overwhelming the blockade of the liver, is that how they work? OR, IS IT that the methyl groups are just a necessary evil, and they do their damage but are purely side effect to the conversion into usable anabolic compounds?

If you understand my question, I would appreciate your answer. I may not have explained myself well.

My reason is that if orals work by overwhelming the liver, then you need certain high doses in order to get any effect in the body. Anything less just doesn't materialize into anabolic compounds. But, if the toxicity is just a delivery side effect in the liver conversion, then any dose has POTENTIALLY the ability to have some anabolic effect compared to no dose.

I know people have experiences like "that's too low to get any benefit" and "why knock out your T for so little gain?" which are based on experience, but I am mostly just interested in the specific question of whether I can benefit slightly from very low doses.

Thanks!

ps I am 5' 9" male 190 lbs 15% bf, 49 yrs old with tons of work out exp but no pills or AAS yet.

 

[AnthonyMarco]

I can't day for sure if you will benefit from low dose AAS since it depends a lot on natural levels vs. exogenous levels. However, at your age (no offense) I personally think you will get good results from a low dose as long as it is at or above the standard 200mg/week TRT dose. But of course it really depends on your natural level of testosterone.

As for the chemistry, I am not a chemist, but the way I understand it is the 17 carbon alkylation (17aa) is just to get steroids past your liver intact.

If you take an oral without 17aa, it (the steroid itself) is essentially oxidized to a prohormone by your liver. Once past your liver it is metabolized back into a usable product, but different from the original and not nearly as potent as the original substance.

When there is a 17aa attached to the steroid, the 17aa is itself oxidized (and not the steroid it is attached to) which leaves the actual steroid intact to do its job.

In short, oral steroids are soldiers, 17aa is the Trojan horse.

 

[Planteater]

Thanks!

So I take it that any dose the Trojan horse is shed and the amount of soldiers there then march out to do battle, however many there are.
Some other meds, not bb meds, work by over-running the liver's ability to filter them out, so you need a big dose to get through.

No offense on age. It's all about age really. I work my ass off and think, daggit, when i worked this hard when I was 22, there would be hyooge growth.

I just want to get what I paid for!

I am terrified Of T shut down, and also don't cope well with even OTC AIs, so I know a cycle is going to mess with my mind.

I don't understand a lot of what goes for common knowledge on aas.

Like, why wouldn't an old guy benefit from just 50 mg Test E a week?
Couldn't an oral be taken in super low doses? Occasional days? Wouldn't that have some effect over nothing at all?

Only thing I can think of is that even 50mg the body would interpret as too much and then it would shut down, so, if yo are going to shut down, might as well pile some T on top of that and get some gains. 200 over or 5 over the limit, is the same.

But is there a harder shut and softer shut down or is it that shut down is shut down is shut down? Kno what I mean? This would be the same for T as for Orval's I imagine.

 

[Alphacore200]

They do make a lot of non methylated orals like primo acetate tabs which yes u need a very high dose to over come the liver. That is the reason they came up with methylated compounds to begin with less dose with more useable compound

 

[Alphacore200]

Introducing Test or any other exogenous hormone into your body will shut down your natural production. How long it takes to recover depends on your PCT and how long your cycle was.

 

[Nelson Montana]

The answer is no, it is not determined by over burdening the liver. HOWEVER, the stress comes mostly from stopping the liver from breaking down the compound and YES, it seems that any dosage that doesn't strain the liver to some point would not be effective.

Primo tabs do not force the liver to prevent breakdown which is why you need so much, so often. It works, but you might as well use HMB. It works in a similar way but you need to take about $30 worth a day to get any effects.

 

[Headholio]

1. Is the anabolic effects of orals dependant on overwhelming the liver, as I know it is with some other medications?

No.

I know oral designers are methyl toxic, but my question is do you only see benefits due to overwhelming the blockade of the liver, is that how they work? OR, IS IT that the methyl groups are just a necessary evil, and they do their damage but are purely side effect to the conversion into usable anabolic compounds?

The methyl group prevents breakdown in the liver. After food (or a pill) enters your stomach and is digested it goes to the liver through the portal vein before entering the general circulation. The liver would breakdown these hormone type compounds before they got to the muscle. The methylation blocks the enzyme binding that would break down the drug, so that it gets to the muscle.

if the toxicity is just a delivery side effect in the liver conversion, then any dose has POTENTIALLY the ability to have some anabolic effect compared to no dose.

Just like any drug, there is a minimum dose below which effects are not noticeable. The doses that people take are taken for a reason; because they are found to work.
Very small doses of an AAS could actually decrease your anabolism by supressing testosterone while not providing enough androgenic/anabolic properties to make up for that suppression.

 

[Headholio]

Like, why wouldn't an old guy benefit from just 50 mg Test E a week?
Couldn't an oral be taken in super low doses? Occasional days? Wouldn't that have some effect over nothing at all?

Again, whatever you are putting into your body exogenously has to have enough metabolic activity to make up for shut down. People on TRT take 100mg or 200 mg per week to get them into the normal range, so obviously, 50 isn't going to do it.

Only thing I can think of is that even 50mg the body would interpret as too much and then it would shut down, so, if yo are going to shut down, might as well pile some T on top of that and get some gains. 200 over or 5 over the limit, is the same.

But is there a harder shut and softer shut down or is it that shut down is shut down is shut down? Kno what I mean? This would be the same for T as for Orval's I imagine.

Lets imagine that you have normal T levels say around 600. Your body has defined that set point and manufactures enough T to keep you at that level. Now, you decide you want just a little higher level, so you start supplementing with 50 mg.

Your body would see a higher than normal level, and reduce production and or increase conversion, to get things back to what it has defined as normal. If you keep doing the 50 mg doses, your body would continue to have suppressed production.

On small doses it might not be complete supression, but, over time, if you continued, your body would become accustomed to producing less T, and it would be harder to get back to normal when you stopped.

 

[RickRock13]

As others have said, the methylation of sn oral steroid is to prevent the compound from being broken down by the liver.

As with anything, there is what's called an effective dose. You must have that level to get the desired results. Anything less wouldn't be worth it

 

[Planteater]

Thanks. In the meantime I found some good explanations of why what yuz guys are saying is true about suppression and low dose test, which presumably would be the same for Orals too.

If this is the case, then what's up with these herbal test boosters? If they work, then they slightly raise T, which would have this same suppression with little benefit problem.

I know some of you say, I know! That's why I go aas. But others of you take these and some sell them.

Can anyone explain to me why herbals that raise T a bit (assuming some do) would not be counterproductive to take stand alone rather than Ptc?

 

[Nelson Montana]

Thanks. In the meantime I found some good explanations of why what yuz guys are saying is true about suppression and low dose test, which presumably would be the same for Orals too.

If this is the case, then what's up with these herbal test boosters? If they work, then they slightly raise T, which would have this same suppression with little benefit problem.

I know some of you say, I know! That's why I go aas. But others of you take these and some sell them.

Can anyone explain to me why herbals that raise T a bit (assuming some do) would not be counterproductive to take stand alone rather than Ptc?

It depends on the test booster. UNLEASHED lowers SHBH which in turn increases the bioavailability of the test you already have in your system. So more T is active but there isn;t any exogenous T added, so, there's no suppression.

 

[Planteater]

yes unleashed is interesting that way, if it works in that way, but what about all the others, including HCGenerate?
if they raise T a little, and actually work a little, then wouldn't that be as bad as low dose AAS?

And if the answer is, they raise T so little that suppression cant happen or is easily rebounded from, then wouldn't it be possible to dose Test at these very low levels?

I still dont get how these test boosters could be good at all, given the logic just presented on low dose AAS.

 

[RickRock13]

Thanks. In the meantime I found some good explanations of why what yuz guys are saying is true about suppression and low dose test, which presumably would be the same for Orals too.

If this is the case, then what's up with these herbal test boosters? If they work, then they slightly raise T, which would have this same suppression with little benefit problem.

I know some of you say, I know! That's why I go aas. But others of you take these and some sell them.

Can anyone explain to me why herbals that raise T a bit (assuming some do) would not be counterproductive to take stand alone rather than Ptc?

This is a common misconception among people about testosterone. When taking testosterone from an outside source like AAS, it is exogenous, meaning not coming from your body. That is why it is suppressive, since your body senses the outside source and shuts off its own production since its not needed.

When running a herbal test booster, the opposite happens. Test boosters send signals to your body for it to produce more endogenous testosterone (testosterone within your body produced naturally). So, in response to the signal your body produces more to give higher test levels instead of shutting it down like with AAS....the opposite of suppression.

 

[Headholio]

This is a common misconception among people about testosterone. When taking testosterone from an outside source like AAS, it is exogenous, meaning not coming from your body. That is why it is suppressive, since your body senses the outside source and shuts off its own production since its not needed.

When running a herbal test booster, the opposite happens. Test boosters send signals to your body for it to produce more endogenous testosterone (testosterone within your body produced naturally). So, in response to the signal your body produces more to give higher test levels instead of shutting it down like with AAS....the opposite of suppression.

This.

 

[Planteater]

Thanks, that helps a lot.

But once the extra test is there, doesn't the body respond by making less?

 

[Headholio]

Thanks, that helps a lot.

But once the extra test is there, doesn't the body respond by making less?

Not if there is a signal for it to make more. But yeah there could be competing reactions going on.

It's true that all the feedback loops and regulation of normal levels is complicated. Lots of stuff can happen that's much more complex than these simple explanations.

In general, things that are shown to work are how you know what works. Trying to logically plot your way though it, is dangerous.

 

[Planteater]

Well it's only dangerous if your logic leads you to do something that is very different than what experience has proven reliable. But i think it is helpful to try and get the best understanding possible considering ones level of intelligence. Mine is low (although i have no bloodwork to prove it).

Of course I started the thread with something experienced people are not doing I.e. low dose aas. But I'm definitely not going to do anything against the grain based on my bro logic, that's why I am here.

BTW I really appreciate the answers here. I didn't get flamed once yet! I've never seen that happen on a bb forum before. I almost can't believe you are willing to talk to me about this.

So... Right it gets complicated since theoretically it's possible that the body adapts to a repeated signal from the OTC test boosters, which would also happen in the presence of slightly high T that might lead to another factor in favor of reduced endogenous production, and still the whole thing would be not as bad as Exo T, nor as good for that matter.

I still am not seeing much of a benefit to OTC t boosters then, because its hard to believe that the herbal signal to repeat production could outweigh the effect of slightly raised T which was said to be such a bad thing re low dose aas, unless the herbals boosted t so slightly but then what's the point?

Note this very different than thinking about it PCT, which I get. Just the libido alone is worth it.

I wonder if those dinky transdermal T patches on TV, which must provide low dose t I imagine, have any use in bb if combined with the herbal repeat signal of OTC boosters.