Top Ten Creationist Arguments Part 1 and 2

[javaguru]

Saints that helped Jesus get where he is? What? The people that were raised where those that believed during Jesus' life and were baptized. How many do you think that was? The earthquake was recorded. It's funny what you said...conquering death not being enough for you...you want your mother fucking PROPS and blame God if you don't get your mother fucking PROPS. Never mind that though...

Again, have you thought that maybe you only apply your skepticism to the foundations of the Christian faith? That you might believe anything you're told as long as it rejects theology? There is evidence..several lines of evidence that indicate that Jesus' tomb was found empty by a group of women, not couting postmortem appearances. If you want, I'm ready to go through this and think this through to the end with you. Once we arrive there are you going to try and attempt to explain that psychologically? Hallucinations? I'm ready to go through each one with of those objections with you. Even skeptical scholars at least admit that these people believed that his man had been raised from the dead. We need to go through why they would believe that once we get there. Even if you just define the Jesus of history as only the person you can recover today with your philosophy on history (that you only apply to the historical evidence of Christianity) you still run into serious problems, and we can go through those too. For the time being, at least we know that you admit he existed. That is a start.

I'm a skeptic by nature...have you read my posts on global warming? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[cindylou]

I'm a skeptic by nature...have you read my posts on global warming? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Yes I know So if certain Christians play the skeptic in certain areas they are the worst idiots, but if you play skeptic you're brilliant?

You compare the gospels to legend and folk tales but you know that most folk stories don't contain actual historical individuals in real places talking about real events that actually happened. The way they memorized and passed down their tradition was highly reliable and was a well developed skill for their time. No modern scholar thinks that the gospels are an outright LIE that stuff just comes from websites and books/movies. You know that historians have been able to reconstruct with confidence the past with less than the first generation eyewitness testimony that the gospels have. So, now we know that these people recorded to the best of their ability what happened to the man Jesus and what he said, what he did, how he died and they recorded an empty tomb discovered by group of women and recorded him in his body alive after his death. Why did these people believe that he died and didn't stay dead? Even after all of that, the discovery of Jesus' empty tomb istelf can be shown reliable without even showing that the gospels themselves are trustworthy. I don't have to defend the reliablity of the whole gospels to defend one event written in them...the empty tomb...a pretty extraordinary event.

P.S. Since I don't think ledhead is checking this thread: Ancient non-Christian literary sources that mention Jesus outside the bible: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Thallus, Celsus, Lucian of Samosata, and Mara bar Serapion

 

[EarthRider]

again cindy pwnes java

if i was single i'd have a e-crush

 

[cindylou]

again cindy pwnes java

if i was single i'd have a e-crush

Well, not really. I didn't respond to the argument that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence because it sounds very common sense but it does not work that way. It's a false presupposition. You would never be able to believe any report of an extraordinary event. You have to consider not just the probability of that event, you also have to take into account the probablity of the evidence being just as it is had the event not taken place.

So, we would have to determine the probablity of the evidence being as it is... the empty tomb, postmortem appearances, and the belief of the disciples that he had raised from the dead if it actually hadn't happened. He was getting ahead of me...but even so once you think about it the way you should, it still seems to suggest that the extraordinary events written about Jesus probably happened.

I'm not trying to pwn him because I understand that it is hard to wrap your mind around the events that were written at first glance...but I'll always be prepared to defend and explain the hope that is in me.

 

[Mr. dB]

P.S. Since I don't think ledhead is checking this thread: Ancient non-Christian literary sources that mention Jesus outside the bible: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Thallus, Celsus, Lucian of Samosata, and Mara bar Serapion

And all of those sources mention him directly, not by referring to a prior mention by one of the other sources?

Josephus: AD37-AD100
Tacitus: AD56-AD117
Suetonius: AD70-AD130
Pliny the Younger: AD61-AD112
Thallus: can't find birth and death dates, but his history text is from AD52
Celsus: Second Century
Lucian of Samosata: AD125-AD180
Mara bar Serapion: no dates -- sometime between AD73 and the 3rd Century

Of these historians, only one, Thallus, may possibly have been alive during Jesus' lifetime. So none of these historical references are first hand reports.

 

[miplank]

cindy in 3...2...

 

[cindylou]

And all of those sources mention him directly, not by referring to a prior mention by one of the other sources?

Josephus: AD37-AD100
Tacitus: AD56-AD117
Suetonius: AD70-AD130
Pliny the Younger: AD61-AD112
Thallus: can't find birth and death dates, but his history text is from AD52
Celsus: Second Century
Lucian of Samosata: AD125-AD180
Mara bar Serapion: no dates -- sometime between AD73 and the 3rd Century

Of these historians, only one, Thallus, may possibly have been alive during Jesus' lifetime. So none of these historical references are first hand reports.

I didn't mention rabbinic traditions either, but that wasn't what javaguru asked...if it was I didn't realize it because it wasn't directed to me...that's why I left it in the P.S section... Even so, how much literature from the ancient world do we have at all? Most of it has been lost...so that leaves open the possibility that there was more than what we have. Is there any evidence from what we do have that Jesus was an outright lie? I know some legendary-jesus theorists have called some of those "dubious" scources but some people continue to make the claim that Jesus wasn't mentioned at all outside the gospels, that's just not true especially considering what we do have and what has been lost. The first generation testimony is in the gospels.

One thing I'll mention quickly about Celsus because I don't have the time to go through them all is that no one in the ancient world seemed to outright deny that Jesus performed miracles (or that he existed) they just have their various ways of trying to explain it. That seems to me difficult to explain if Jesus was nothing more than a legend...a folk story.

 

[javaguru]

I didn't mention rabbinic traditions either, but that wasn't what javaguru asked...if it was I didn't realize it because it wasn't directed to me...that's why I left it in the P.S section... Even so, how much literature from the ancient world do we have at all? Most of it has been lost...so that leaves open the possibility that there was more than what we have. Is there any evidence from what we do have that Jesus was an outright lie? I know some legendary-jesus theorists have called some of those "dubious" scources but some people continue to make the claim that Jesus wasn't mentioned at all outside the gospels, that's just not true especially considering what we do have and what has been lost. The first generation testimony is in the gospels.

One thing I'll mention quickly about Celsus because I don't have the time to go through them all is that no one in the ancient world seemed to outright deny that Jesus performed miracles (or that he existed) they just have their various ways of trying to explain it. That seems to me difficult to explain if Jesus was nothing more than a legend...a folk story.

I was asking for credible sources outside the bible....Like I've said before..you have to reach to establish the existence of the mythological Jesus let alone the veracity of the acts attributed to him in Christian mythology. I can find articles written interviewing people who claimed to have seen Elvis, Hitler and Michael Jackson...these are first hand accounts of those who claim to have seen them in person after their death.

 

[EarthRider]

java, that is where it can so much be on faith. When I accepted God into my life, my life has never been the same. I truely believe something happened in me, and no matter what you say or think, you can't change that. I may not have exact proof that whatever your trying to prove is true. But, God has changed my life, and I feel I am living a happy and fullfilled life because of Him. You can't change that, and you can't change the way I feel. Just as it takes faith to believe in God, it also takes faith not to.

 

[cindylou]

I was asking for credible sources outside the bible....Like I've said before..you have to reach to establish the existence of the mythological Jesus let alone the veracity of the acts attributed to him in Christian mythology. I can find articles written interviewing people who claimed to have seen Elvis, Hitler and Michael Jackson...these are first hand accounts of those who claim to have seen them in person after their death.

No..it is actually not a reach. IMO you're reaching. You have to reach to hold the view you're holding...legendary-jesus. You didn't explain why Celcus would go on trying to explain miracles if he knew they were a fabricated legend. Did you not read any of my other posts where I can not only be sure of the gospels reliability but even if I couldn't be sure of that I can defend certain events..for example the empty tomb and resurrection. I've already gone over how we can't look at history with your philosophy, that we can't know anything about the past(because no actual professional historian would even have any reason to get up and do any real research) How am I reaching by just looking at what is in front of me, that combined with my experience isn't enough? The first hand testimony is in the gospels which I can show to be reliable. Reaching? lol I can barely call it faith anymore.