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BB Rows (Madcow)
- Thread starter anthrax
- Start date
Anthrax said:
i like doin it 90 degrees, i use lighter weight, but i feel like i get more full range of motion, seeing my arms are pretty dam short. i also like to use higher reps like 12-15. i usually never go below 10 reps for rowing movements. but ive had success with both ways. i just think its the same as flat and incline. two different variations...
Ok - think about how the body is meant to perform a rowing motion - like a rowboat or better yet a crew shell since this puppy is made for speed and setup most advantageously for each rower. They are pulling directly into themselves, meaning that they are perpendicular to the resistence (their torso for the most part is at 90 degrees to the plane of water which serves as the resistence). I will throw in the caveate that the torso is not stationary during the row and it is very much a full body pull but you do get the point. Your back's primary rowing power is directly back. This allows the lats to be most heavily activated throughout the range of motion.
Translating that motion into weights, the resistence for a weight is gravity which is on a vertical plane contrary to water's horizontal plane - both are the respective sources of resistence. Where the rower was upright at 90 degrees to the horizontal resistence, the weightlifter's resistence is now vertical - so 90 degrees to vertical means your back is horizontal to the floor.
So that's the essence of where the 90 degrees comes from.
Moving beyond that, rowing is a fairly fundemental motion and with significant weight it is damn hard to stay perfectly still and I'd venture a bit unnatural - you will find there are more dynamic methods of rowing with a barbell out there but this is the base (see the Johnsmith182 sticky at meso's training board linked here if you are curious - excellent read by the way - best 20 minutes you will spend: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=12). So anyway, you tend to pull back a bit with heavy weight anyway and that is how rows should be done heavy and explosive. You should be accelerating that bar into your body. So someone starting at 90 degrees generally ends up cheating back just a bit and that's okay.
In addition, a lot of guys lack the flexability to keep their back flat and perform the exercise as they get near the 90 degree point. In that case you shoot for 90 degrees but you go to where your body is comfortable.
The reason why I stress it is because we have all seen the dochebags in the gym standing almost vertical and rowing through a minute range of motion. This is crap. It doesn't allow for proper activation of the lats since you aren't pulling in but up, the range of motion is drastically reduced, and on top of that you wind up looking like a moron so there's really nothing good to come of it.
As for starting the motion at 45 degrees, I can't say it's optimal unless you can't get any lower (in which case flexability work or core strengthening would be my suggestion depending on the issue causing this). If you start at 45 degrees and row hard, you'll find yourself above 45 degrees at peak contraction and possibly significantly. Your range of motion is cut, your lats aren't getting proper activation because you are no longer pulling in but pulling up and you will end up relying on other muscles to generate the momentum (and that necessitates further straightening of the back).
So anyway, it's a soft rule when I say 90 degrees. I am fairly flexible and I can get close but not a full 90 (you see this in the goodmorning too - everyone has a different range of motion). That said, the soft rule is meant to provide the necessary margin to correctly perform the exercise. There is a hard rule right behind it saying that you absolutely must come as close as you are able to the 90 degrees. Significant deviation compromises the exercise.
Huge reply but it's better to give someone the full explanation. Give it some thought and do some rowing in the gym the next time - performing the motion makes it crystal clear. Be sure to work on accelerating the rep. A rower accelerates the oar through the water working harder and harder throughout the range of the stroke. He doesn't stop pulling hard once he gets the oar moving. This is critical to rowing success in the gym but watch your rib cage on the light ones.
Translating that motion into weights, the resistence for a weight is gravity which is on a vertical plane contrary to water's horizontal plane - both are the respective sources of resistence. Where the rower was upright at 90 degrees to the horizontal resistence, the weightlifter's resistence is now vertical - so 90 degrees to vertical means your back is horizontal to the floor.
So that's the essence of where the 90 degrees comes from.
Moving beyond that, rowing is a fairly fundemental motion and with significant weight it is damn hard to stay perfectly still and I'd venture a bit unnatural - you will find there are more dynamic methods of rowing with a barbell out there but this is the base (see the Johnsmith182 sticky at meso's training board linked here if you are curious - excellent read by the way - best 20 minutes you will spend: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=12). So anyway, you tend to pull back a bit with heavy weight anyway and that is how rows should be done heavy and explosive. You should be accelerating that bar into your body. So someone starting at 90 degrees generally ends up cheating back just a bit and that's okay.
In addition, a lot of guys lack the flexability to keep their back flat and perform the exercise as they get near the 90 degree point. In that case you shoot for 90 degrees but you go to where your body is comfortable.
The reason why I stress it is because we have all seen the dochebags in the gym standing almost vertical and rowing through a minute range of motion. This is crap. It doesn't allow for proper activation of the lats since you aren't pulling in but up, the range of motion is drastically reduced, and on top of that you wind up looking like a moron so there's really nothing good to come of it.
As for starting the motion at 45 degrees, I can't say it's optimal unless you can't get any lower (in which case flexability work or core strengthening would be my suggestion depending on the issue causing this). If you start at 45 degrees and row hard, you'll find yourself above 45 degrees at peak contraction and possibly significantly. Your range of motion is cut, your lats aren't getting proper activation because you are no longer pulling in but pulling up and you will end up relying on other muscles to generate the momentum (and that necessitates further straightening of the back).
So anyway, it's a soft rule when I say 90 degrees. I am fairly flexible and I can get close but not a full 90 (you see this in the goodmorning too - everyone has a different range of motion). That said, the soft rule is meant to provide the necessary margin to correctly perform the exercise. There is a hard rule right behind it saying that you absolutely must come as close as you are able to the 90 degrees. Significant deviation compromises the exercise.
Huge reply but it's better to give someone the full explanation. Give it some thought and do some rowing in the gym the next time - performing the motion makes it crystal clear. Be sure to work on accelerating the rep. A rower accelerates the oar through the water working harder and harder throughout the range of the stroke. He doesn't stop pulling hard once he gets the oar moving. This is critical to rowing success in the gym but watch your rib cage on the light ones.
M
Megalomaniac
Guest
Thanks madcow, this is the main reason why I visit EF. Good info and good links!
R
roidpuple
Guest
ya seem simple.... if you are at a 45 more of the weight is going tward the shoulders.
and traps. not the lats.. thank about pull downs... you are pulling tward your lats...
and traps. not the lats.. thank about pull downs... you are pulling tward your lats...
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youlikadajuice
New member
90kills the lower backroidpuple said:
Hence the soft rule and hard rule in my post. If you have the flexability and a healthy back but experience discomfort in a low position (very few people get to 90 degrees but nearly every healthy human can do significantly better than 45)- you can almost certainly conclude that you are weak in the core.youlikadajuice said:
This is actually why a lot of bodybuilders row upright like they do (and my next sentence will reveal why I make fun of those who do it). The lack of deep squating and heavy pulling from the floor has left their core weak - all show and no go, a Ferrari body kit car with a 4 cylinder engine. Take your pick your core is the center of everything and it allows you to use your strength and power effectively. Plus it protects you from injury. Not something to leave weak.
youlikadajuice
New member
It's not about having a low weak back, it's about not putting too much strain on it so that you can perform other excersizes and not involving your lower back for a second time in a row. Why put more strain on the lower back when you dont have to? Go back and look at my lower back and tell me it's weak.Madcow2 said:
Well, if your back is too exhausted and you feel the accrued load from the total workout is too heavy for it and placing unsafe strain then it is certainly too weak to continue doing what you are currently doing. Change up the exercise order, move things around to accomodate, plan better, add a second session and split the volume. The answer however is not bastardizing the exercise and preventing proper recruitment of the lats.
No other exercise is routinely screwed up as often as this one (possible exception being deads - and I don't even count cleans or olympic lifts performed by BBers or gym rats). No one rationalizes butchering their inclines or military technique simply due to load - rowing should be no different.
No other exercise is routinely screwed up as often as this one (possible exception being deads - and I don't even count cleans or olympic lifts performed by BBers or gym rats). No one rationalizes butchering their inclines or military technique simply due to load - rowing should be no different.
There's a name. I'm a big fan of his. The main differences between the generic version I provide and his are that in addition to doing them from the floor he also advocates recruiting the erectors by going from a flat to arched back during the movement. This more closely resembles a real row (thinking of the crew shell example again).bignate73 said:
It's a great movement but I figured that everyone would be better served by the generic row and a description as to why it's done. If I got into doing each rep from a complete deweight on the floor and recruiting the erectors, people would see it more as a novelty and not change their technique.
In all honesty, once you hit 45 degrees if there is any propensity for motion at all (and with heavy weight there absolutely will be) somone would probably be better served by doing dynamic pulls from the hang or power shrugs. Since you can't perform a real row in that position, you might as well forget about the arm portion and load the bar up for some real pulling. Lat recruitment is still there to a degree but the whole back/shoulders get overloaded. Noticable difference in the mirror within 3 weeks, guaranteed.
Dickhead - look at the title of this thread. Look at the first post.beachbum777 said:
If that didn't answer your question, let me help you out. I didn't start the thread. The thread was started by Anthrax. The thread was specifically addressed to me to ask me a question (see title of thread and first post). I then go on to answer said question.
So - "HAHA" as you put it. Take your head out of your ass, read what is written and maybe you can learn something instead of wasting everyone's time with your attitude. If you are happy with what you do, by all means continue - I hope your results are better than your comprehension of what I thought to be the totally obvious nature of this thread.
I'm quickly beginning to be reminded of why I didn't post at Elite for years. Some really great people and then there are the others.
Your posts have been sent to the admins. Wouldn't it be nice if you actually appologized after not only flaming me but being totally and obviously wrong and off-base? Then again, it takes a man to do that. People are here to learn and better themselves. I can't quite figure out your purpose but I doubt it's an decent one. Grow up or out. Makes no difference to me and I doubt anyone else here either.beachbum777 said:
R
roidpuple
Guest
to use the lats you pull down and back..... WoW beachbum777 looks like he is having fun... ignore him i say then he will have no one to talk too ...
beachbum777
New member
again .oh, no
OH YES!
RADAR
OH YES!
RADAR
R
roidpuple
Guest
RADAR..Rocks
BTW: Here is excerpt written on the more explosive rowing version. I did not write this but if comes from a very knowedgable source.
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Rows: Well, the best way to do them is to start with the bar on the floor every single rep. Your middle back will have slight bend to it. You pull the bar off the floor quickly with the arms, and by a powerful arch of your middle back. You finish by touching the bar to your upper stomach or middle stomach. At no time is there any movement of the hips or knees, no hip extension at all, all that bends is the middle back and the shoulders and elbows.
This is hard to do and you have to have good muscular control to do it, or you'll end up straightening up at the hips along with the arching of the back. But if you can master doing them this way you will get a big back. This works because the lats actually extend (arch) the middle back in addition to other functions, just like with glute-ham extensions compared to leg curls…you always get a stronger contraction when you move both the origin and insertion of a muscle, flexing it from both ends so to speak.
The bar returns to the floor after each rep. The bent row is actually best done as an explosive movement and the bar is moved fast. I have trained many people who could do this exercise with 350 or more lbs. I myself have done reps with 425, Ed Coan, who also knows how to do them properly, has done reps with over 500lbs without his back ever coming above parallel with the ground. That is stronger than Dorian Yates or Ronnie Coleman, by the way.
I did rows with Coleman once, actually, and I was far stronger than he was. He could not do more than 350lbs strictly although he could do over 500lbs by standing almost all the way up at the completion of each rep. Ed Coan is probably the strongest person on these, although one power-lifter I trained did manage 525 for a double done strictly.
Rows look at an anatomy chart. if the scapula and upper arms are held in a constant position, shortening of the lats WILL result in arching of the middle and upper back. i AM NOT saying that the lats are primarily responsible for upper back flexion... what i am saying is that they can assist in this.
i also HAVE done EMG work on various different rowing techniques... and there is not doubt that rows performed as i describe them will activate the lats more completely than done any other way i have ever seen. i have done EMG work on a large quantity of people for rows... and ive always found that these kind of rows activate the lats most completely. and besides, even if you dont buy the fact that they activate the lats better, hell, you can always be content with the fact that your getting an erector workout.
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-------------------------------------------------------------------
Rows: Well, the best way to do them is to start with the bar on the floor every single rep. Your middle back will have slight bend to it. You pull the bar off the floor quickly with the arms, and by a powerful arch of your middle back. You finish by touching the bar to your upper stomach or middle stomach. At no time is there any movement of the hips or knees, no hip extension at all, all that bends is the middle back and the shoulders and elbows.
This is hard to do and you have to have good muscular control to do it, or you'll end up straightening up at the hips along with the arching of the back. But if you can master doing them this way you will get a big back. This works because the lats actually extend (arch) the middle back in addition to other functions, just like with glute-ham extensions compared to leg curls…you always get a stronger contraction when you move both the origin and insertion of a muscle, flexing it from both ends so to speak.
The bar returns to the floor after each rep. The bent row is actually best done as an explosive movement and the bar is moved fast. I have trained many people who could do this exercise with 350 or more lbs. I myself have done reps with 425, Ed Coan, who also knows how to do them properly, has done reps with over 500lbs without his back ever coming above parallel with the ground. That is stronger than Dorian Yates or Ronnie Coleman, by the way.
I did rows with Coleman once, actually, and I was far stronger than he was. He could not do more than 350lbs strictly although he could do over 500lbs by standing almost all the way up at the completion of each rep. Ed Coan is probably the strongest person on these, although one power-lifter I trained did manage 525 for a double done strictly.
Rows look at an anatomy chart. if the scapula and upper arms are held in a constant position, shortening of the lats WILL result in arching of the middle and upper back. i AM NOT saying that the lats are primarily responsible for upper back flexion... what i am saying is that they can assist in this.
i also HAVE done EMG work on various different rowing techniques... and there is not doubt that rows performed as i describe them will activate the lats more completely than done any other way i have ever seen. i have done EMG work on a large quantity of people for rows... and ive always found that these kind of rows activate the lats most completely. and besides, even if you dont buy the fact that they activate the lats better, hell, you can always be content with the fact that your getting an erector workout.
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DaveTSI
New member
That is the way i do my rows, ive tried every different style and i prefer the one madcow just posted. Definatly works the best for me. Only thing i havent done is place the weight on the floor for every rep. Im going to give this a shot next back day. my pr with these is 275 for 6 and 315 for 2, got 3 but started to stand up.
Proof this style works is in my pictures i posted a couple months back, look at the developement in my lats/rear delts. These rows are the core of my back training aside from deads.
Proof this style works is in my pictures i posted a couple months back, look at the developement in my lats/rear delts. These rows are the core of my back training aside from deads.
It's actually beyond touching the floor. The weight is fully rested on the floor after each rep. Your arms should not be carrying any weight when that bar is down. It's hard at first, especially if someone doesn't have adequate core strength - flexibility can sometimes be an issue. The weights move up quickly though.
Texas Ranger
New member
WONDERFUL info here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bignate73
New member
i just did some the other day. i was worked!
i usually can row 185'ish for 6-8 reps, 205 for 5.
Pendlay rows? sheesh....i stuck with 135 and felt worked!!! I did sets of 10 but still, i felt way more worked! I'm going to rotate these with standard BB rows for a while and see how quickly i can get my 'from the floor' rows up. just as a side bet, I'll bet my DL goes up in the process.
funny how that whole erector stabilizer thing helps. chest supported what???
nevermore...
i usually can row 185'ish for 6-8 reps, 205 for 5.
Pendlay rows? sheesh....i stuck with 135 and felt worked!!! I did sets of 10 but still, i felt way more worked! I'm going to rotate these with standard BB rows for a while and see how quickly i can get my 'from the floor' rows up. just as a side bet, I'll bet my DL goes up in the process.
funny how that whole erector stabilizer thing helps. chest supported what???
nevermore...
Texas Ranger
New member
Madcow, where should you place your hands doing these type of rows? Should your pinkies touch the smooth rings on the Olympic bar causing us to row with a wide grip??
Tom Treutlein
New member
I use a grip about an inch outside the smooth portion of the bar. It's fairly close in, so I was wondering: should I make it a bit wider?
Tom Treutlein
New member
That's basically where my grip is at, as well. I figured there was no definitive answer, but it's good to know where others stand.
These are my 2 back routines:
Day 1
Weighted pullups 5x5 or 2x10
BB rows (90 degree) 5x5
Power shrugs 2x10
Day 2
Cable Pulldowns 2x10
Cable Rows 2x10
Power Shrugs 2x10
I do Face Pulls, Cleans, and Bent Over Lat Raises w/ Shoulders
Do you guys do BB rows off platforms where the bar is lower then your feet?
Day 1
Weighted pullups 5x5 or 2x10
BB rows (90 degree) 5x5
Power shrugs 2x10
Day 2
Cable Pulldowns 2x10
Cable Rows 2x10
Power Shrugs 2x10
I do Face Pulls, Cleans, and Bent Over Lat Raises w/ Shoulders
Do you guys do BB rows off platforms where the bar is lower then your feet?
rbtrout
New member
I don't want to kill a dead horse, but I agree with Madcow's analogy. Your core is probably weak. I know about low back trouble. I couldn't do bent rows (at 90) because it hurt my lower back. Deads hurt my back, but I struggle with them and continued on. Once I was able to start pulling some decent weight (315 5X5) on the deads, bent over rows don't bother my lower back any more. My best on those is 195. I've discovered by doing the 5X5 (all core and compound movements) that increasing the strength of your core will help you on all of your lifts.
There's only one other thing I consider - when I start a lift (any lift), if there's a pain that shouldn't be there, I re-rack the weight, stretch a bit and try it again. If I still have that pain, then I won't do that lift that day or I go way lighter.
There's only one other thing I consider - when I start a lift (any lift), if there's a pain that shouldn't be there, I re-rack the weight, stretch a bit and try it again. If I still have that pain, then I won't do that lift that day or I go way lighter.
NorgePrecision
New member
Look at the oak's back...I think I'll do what he's doing and go 90.
Edit: I just tried the motion without the bar and I can feel it like hell in the middle of my back with no weight at all. I can't wait to some weight on!
Edit: I just tried the motion without the bar and I can feel it like hell in the middle of my back with no weight at all. I can't wait to some weight on!
Spanky11
New member
well just a word of warning on the 90degree angle on BB rows. I did this on tuesday night and I guess my form wasn't the best, and even today it feels like I have pulled some muscle back there. I was walking like I spent a night in prison all day yesterday....
90 degrees are great, but please use a lot less weight until you get used to the movement.
great post.
90 degrees are great, but please use a lot less weight until you get used to the movement.
great post.
B
BadboyAl
Guest
Hmm I actually do both.
I 1st do Heavy 3x5-8 of Cable rows with 45degree angle. Cable rows allow you to cheat some so you can lift heavy.
But then i do Light 3x8-12 Supported T Bar Rows. If you notice the supported T-bar is bascially a 90degree angle.I focus on the lower half of the pull for these (lower half meaning closer to your body. I focus on squezzing tight and holding for a second when the weight is at your body.
That 6 set twice aweek is all you need for rows. i also do a chindown Pull up combine in the same fashion Heavy full pull ups then light chin downs with pauses at the body.
You get the best of both worlds. you lift heavy and you get the good form and mass of repitition work.
I 1st do Heavy 3x5-8 of Cable rows with 45degree angle. Cable rows allow you to cheat some so you can lift heavy.
But then i do Light 3x8-12 Supported T Bar Rows. If you notice the supported T-bar is bascially a 90degree angle.I focus on the lower half of the pull for these (lower half meaning closer to your body. I focus on squezzing tight and holding for a second when the weight is at your body.
That 6 set twice aweek is all you need for rows. i also do a chindown Pull up combine in the same fashion Heavy full pull ups then light chin downs with pauses at the body.
You get the best of both worlds. you lift heavy and you get the good form and mass of repitition work.
B
BadboyAl
Guest
well i do tons of sldl and deadlifts so thats not an issue for me. i would hope no one is using a bb row to work post muscles, not very effective.
never thought about taking a look on the date .. just read it 
gjohnson5
New member
Madcow2 said:
If you wrote a book, I'd buy a copy...
Anyway , wouldn't you say that true for most any free weight back exersize. you pull back at the bottom to "cheat". Use momentum at the bottom and you get the back squeeze at the top
Madcow2 said:
LOL, you'll be surprised with what you see in the gym sometimes
Madcow2 said:
Would you consider 45 degrees a good angle if using a tbar row instead of a barbell row?
Madcow2 said:
I agree totally
Chairman hit
silver_shadow
New member
bro, MC2 has stopped posting some time agogjohnson5 said:
silver_shadow
New member
naw... no knucklehead would argue with him... one day his site just said that he felt he had achieved what he had set out to do which was to educate enough guys and start some momentum, so he didn't feel the need to post anymore.... well something to that effect... there was a post about this a couple of months ago.gjohnson5 said:
blut wump
New member
Madcow left us with this legacy:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm
I think that maybe he felt that his work was done once his repository was complete. I'm sure he'll pop back at some time.
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm
I think that maybe he felt that his work was done once his repository was complete. I'm sure he'll pop back at some time.
silver_shadow
New member
to quote from the website:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/index.htm
3/21/2006
With the updates here (lots of new ones in the 3/19/2006 entry below) I view this work as fairly complete. While it is nothing revolutionary it is nonetheless a decent resource for programming and weight training information that most recreational lifters and bodybuilders will likely find valuable and, given a lot of what's been put out there into the commercial gym world by bodybuilding and the captive media sources over the past 30 years, eye opening. I originally set out to try to help some people in a fairly limited way. I figured that if I could make some tangible difference in an activity that was important to a group of 8-10 people, that would be something good and something that would pay back some of the joy and fun I've had with weightlifting over the years. Certainly nothing grand but nonetheless improving the world by leaving it better than I found it and passing on some fruits of my own efforts. Basically to introduce some fundamental concepts and change some commonly held albeit inaccurate views. I think I've at least succeeded in that and by most interpretations made a significant contribution to a fair number of people over the originally intended 8-10. I'll state one last time for the record that the choice of using 5x5 programs in my examples and on this page is mainly because they are very easy to teach training theory from, scale well with experience, have a long history and pedigree as very effective for size and strength, and dispel some commonly held myths that frequency must be frozen in absolute and that copious amounts of isolation work are required at all times. That seems to get lost sometimes in the 5x5 fervor so it made sense to put it down one last time for the books. That being said, I certainly feel the 5x5 style programs are a great way to train, I certainly don't know a better template to increase big lifts and add muscle.
Anyway, with this chapter closed there won't be any more updates to this website (beyond some basic testing and patching once in a while to make sure things remain functional). This should be enough to get most people the information they need, get them some solid progress, expand their knowledge of programming and training theory, and give them some places to look and books to read to further expand their knowledge as they deem fit. There has been a huge disconnect in training theory (even at the most basic level) with the recreational gym culture and hopefully this can serve as something of a bridge.
And with that I'd like to say farewell and goodbye to all the friends I've made over the past year. I hope that you guys enjoyed our conversations as much as I did. Know that one of the things in life that I enjoy most is teaching and watching people progress through their efforts - so I too have gotten something out of this. All things end with time and at this point I don't think there's much more I can do than just continue talking and saying pretty much the same things over and over again to new people (which is why I made this site). Hopefully there is enough momentum and critical mass from what I've done and what so many others are doing that combined with the internet's broad user base providing easy access to information, good realistic info on training won't be some mystery or hard to find. Our youth will understand what training entails and with effort will have the tools they need to progress steadily and reliably rather than quitting, spinning their wheels, or turning to drugs at the first sign of plateau. Who knows, we might even see something worthwhile in the bodybuilding magazines someday.
Lift bigger, eat bigger, get bigger, but above all be happy and enjoy doing it. Although congratulations from others might await at the destination, happiness is found on the path.
All the best,
Madcow
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/index.htm
3/21/2006
With the updates here (lots of new ones in the 3/19/2006 entry below) I view this work as fairly complete. While it is nothing revolutionary it is nonetheless a decent resource for programming and weight training information that most recreational lifters and bodybuilders will likely find valuable and, given a lot of what's been put out there into the commercial gym world by bodybuilding and the captive media sources over the past 30 years, eye opening. I originally set out to try to help some people in a fairly limited way. I figured that if I could make some tangible difference in an activity that was important to a group of 8-10 people, that would be something good and something that would pay back some of the joy and fun I've had with weightlifting over the years. Certainly nothing grand but nonetheless improving the world by leaving it better than I found it and passing on some fruits of my own efforts. Basically to introduce some fundamental concepts and change some commonly held albeit inaccurate views. I think I've at least succeeded in that and by most interpretations made a significant contribution to a fair number of people over the originally intended 8-10. I'll state one last time for the record that the choice of using 5x5 programs in my examples and on this page is mainly because they are very easy to teach training theory from, scale well with experience, have a long history and pedigree as very effective for size and strength, and dispel some commonly held myths that frequency must be frozen in absolute and that copious amounts of isolation work are required at all times. That seems to get lost sometimes in the 5x5 fervor so it made sense to put it down one last time for the books. That being said, I certainly feel the 5x5 style programs are a great way to train, I certainly don't know a better template to increase big lifts and add muscle.
Anyway, with this chapter closed there won't be any more updates to this website (beyond some basic testing and patching once in a while to make sure things remain functional). This should be enough to get most people the information they need, get them some solid progress, expand their knowledge of programming and training theory, and give them some places to look and books to read to further expand their knowledge as they deem fit. There has been a huge disconnect in training theory (even at the most basic level) with the recreational gym culture and hopefully this can serve as something of a bridge.
And with that I'd like to say farewell and goodbye to all the friends I've made over the past year. I hope that you guys enjoyed our conversations as much as I did. Know that one of the things in life that I enjoy most is teaching and watching people progress through their efforts - so I too have gotten something out of this. All things end with time and at this point I don't think there's much more I can do than just continue talking and saying pretty much the same things over and over again to new people (which is why I made this site). Hopefully there is enough momentum and critical mass from what I've done and what so many others are doing that combined with the internet's broad user base providing easy access to information, good realistic info on training won't be some mystery or hard to find. Our youth will understand what training entails and with effort will have the tools they need to progress steadily and reliably rather than quitting, spinning their wheels, or turning to drugs at the first sign of plateau. Who knows, we might even see something worthwhile in the bodybuilding magazines someday.
Lift bigger, eat bigger, get bigger, but above all be happy and enjoy doing it. Although congratulations from others might await at the destination, happiness is found on the path.
All the best,
Madcow
bignate73
New member
gjohnson5 said:
with a tbar then you could be more upright since it tendes to travel on an slight arc. I adjust my torso angle on this one so that the bar moves in perpendicular. ultimately the same angle as from the floor, just slightly different balance required and you can counterbalance more on a tbar.
anotherbutters
New member
I think it should be linked to from within the Training Vault sticky. If we made every useful thread a sticky in its own right, we wouldn't see any non-sticky threads on the first page.
There was lots of good talk about reorganising the stickies the other day in this thread but nobody has put forward any alternatives so far.
There was lots of good talk about reorganising the stickies the other day in this thread but nobody has put forward any alternatives so far.
LiftingDukkha
New member
Are there any cool videos of real rows being performed?
Those photos in the link on the sticky look very interesting; it's amazing how simple that is/looks, yet I've never done rows just that way before...
Wonderful thread. Thanks!
Those photos in the link on the sticky look very interesting; it's amazing how simple that is/looks, yet I've never done rows just that way before...
Wonderful thread. Thanks!
anotherbutters
New member
Didn't Guinness post a vid of himself rowing a while back? We need to start a member's vids thread. I don't have anything worth posting myself.
Cynical Simian
New member
Videos of "real" rowing, eh? 
Seriously, I think Pendlay/JS rows are one of the few exercises for which nobody has been able to find videos. I've tried, and I'm sure others have as well. Those pics, along with the descriptions here and in the link, should be all you need, though. As long as you're trying to keep your back in the proper position, it's pretty tough to mess them up.
AB, I was thinking about Guinness's vid too, but if I remember correctly, after looking at it, he decided that his back wasn't as low as he thought it should be.
Seriously, I think Pendlay/JS rows are one of the few exercises for which nobody has been able to find videos. I've tried, and I'm sure others have as well. Those pics, along with the descriptions here and in the link, should be all you need, though. As long as you're trying to keep your back in the proper position, it's pretty tough to mess them up.
AB, I was thinking about Guinness's vid too, but if I remember correctly, after looking at it, he decided that his back wasn't as low as he thought it should be.
Protobuilder
New member
DZLS posted a rowing vid, probably back in March? He was 90degrees to the floor but there wasn't much upper/mid back arching like you're supposed to "try" and do as best you can.
Cynical Simian
New member
lol, thanks.kethnaab said:
And thanks in advance for the rows vid.
This was such a Good read i needed to bump it.
I do the rows exactly like this at almost 90Degrees.
I have been corrected by some big guys that im bending too much, and i never listened. Thank god. My back really exploded, since adding these hardcore(3-5rep range).
Next adventure to get stronger in, is the chinup, still suck at them, and my back looks decent. Cant wait to see what strenght i add with just chinups alone.
But i needed to bump this, i asked earlier about the glen pendeley row, and here it is....
Everyone doing BACK today, GIVE THESE A TRY!
I do the rows exactly like this at almost 90Degrees.
I have been corrected by some big guys that im bending too much, and i never listened. Thank god. My back really exploded, since adding these hardcore(3-5rep range).
Next adventure to get stronger in, is the chinup, still suck at them, and my back looks decent. Cant wait to see what strenght i add with just chinups alone.
But i needed to bump this, i asked earlier about the glen pendeley row, and here it is....
Everyone doing BACK today, GIVE THESE A TRY!
solarclimax
New member
Anyone know of a video showing J.S.Rows ? I can't seem to get the propper arch.
