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Now, who was it exactly that said you need to deadlift to get good at deadlifts?


Welcome to the EliteFitness.com Bodybuilding Site! Please join this discussion about Now, who was it exactly that said you need to deadlift to get good at deadlifts? within the Weight Training & Weight Lifting category.

Excerpt: <<<<Waits for the controversy. IMO, deadlifts are okay for lowback traps, but they are not essential, and you don't need to deadlift to get good at them. There a guy on this board....*caugh jubei* who has only deadlifted like 8 times in his ENTIRE LIFE. And guess what, he pulls 545 x 2. Deadlifts more than anything are a JUDGE of how well you are working in other areas at the gym. If you train everything else good, and don't deadlift, rest assured, you will have a large deadlift.

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  1. #11
    Debaser
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    Re: Now, who was it exactly that said you need to deadlift to get good at deadlifts?

    Maybe you should point out the study that's relevant? For example, a study that shows deadlifts (or squats, or whatever), to release significantly more growth hormone than other lifts. The studies you've shown were in regards to general training, not specific lifts. Strength training causes increased hormonal response? No shit. Now please illustrate the "magic" of deadlifts.

    Moreover, show the studies that actually indicate this response actually does anything. What makes you think a miniscule amount of increased GH levels for 45 minutes will do jack for muscle growth?

    Leg exercise? Before you give out information you really should study a book dealing with lifting and the biomechanics of them. Sumo deads are a lowerback/hamstring/hip/glute lift. Regular involve the quads/hams/glutes/hips/lowerback.
    Notice where I said it's a lower body lift? Are the quads/hamstrings/hips/glutes not part of the lower body? Lower back is arguable. Unless you're flexing and extending the spine (which you shouldn't be) the low back merely plays a stabilizing role.

  2. #12
    curgeo
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    Re: Now, who was it exactly that said you need to deadlift to get good at deadlifts?

    Stabilizing? So when you deadlift heavy your lower back doesn't get sore? How the hell do you do them then? Do you not arch your back hard?

    Biomechanical Analysis of the Deadlift
    By Martyn Girvan
    For EliteFTS.com

    Introduction:
    The deadlift can be considered as one of the best tests of overall body strength (Groves, 2000). It is a multi joint movement that in simple terms involves picking up a barbell from the floor and standing to the erect position. The movement includes the recruitment of the muscles of the hip, lower back, upper back, quadriceps, hamstrings and abdominals. If used correctly, it can be an excellent exercise to use in the development of strength, speed and power. During this analysis, the objective was to compare and contrast the biomechanical efficiency of two types of deadlift styles and determine which type should be used for certain body types.
    Method:

    Procedure:
    The participant was given instructions on both conventional and semi round back deadlift techniques. The video recording equipment was set up at ninety degrees to the demonstration at a distance of approximately five metres away. This was to ensure parallax and perspective errors were each accounted for. Recordings were then made for a series of conventional and rounded back deadlifts. Multiple repetitions were performed in each style at approximately 80 percent of the lifters one repetition maximum. One repetition from each style was then analysed.
    Participants:
    The participant for this study was one elite level power lifter who has been competing at national level for two years.
    Apparatus:
    The equipment used was a Sony digital handicam 120x zoom video camera set up on a tripod to record the observations. A weights belt was used for back support, as well as an Olympic style barbell in conjunction with weight plates. All observations were conducted at Apollo Fitness Centre.

    Literature review:
    In competitive powerlifting, the deadlift is the third lift in order following the squat and bench press. It often comes down to performance in the deadlift to decide the difference between winning and losing a competition. There is a saying in powerlifting circles that the competition does not start until the bar hits the floor, meaning that a strong deadlift will often lead to a good competition result.
    Much of the research that involves the deadlift has looked at sumo and conventional styles. Sumo style is used with a wider stance in which the lifter grips the bar with the arms placed on the inside of the legs. Conventional style deadlifting involves foot placement at approximately shoulder width apart and gripping the bar on the outside of the legs (McGuigan & Wilson, 1996).
    Both techniques have been used effectively in elite power lifting competition. Conventional style places a large emphasis on the use of the erector spinae muscles because in this position the trunk is normally flexed forward. Sumo style is performed with a more erect and upright back alignment that allows for greater recruitment of the hip muscles to perform the lift (Piper & Waller, 2001).
    The sumo lift is considered to be the more biomechanical efficient lift of the both techniques (McGuigan & Wilson, 1996). It is suggested that bar travel is minimized with a shorter stroke and aids the ability to recruit a greater number of muscle fibres from the posterior chain. Studies have indicated that sumo style deadlifting can reduce bar travel by nineteen percent (McGuigan & Wilson, 1996).
    Studies by McGuigan & Wilson (1996) have indicated that in elite competitive powerlifting the majority of world records are held by lifters using the conventional style. Sumo style deadlifting has not produced as many world records but has performed greater lifts in terms of relative body weight. This gives rise to the suggestion that conventional style deadlifting may be suited to lifters of larger body mass with longer arm length and sumo suited to those of smaller body mass.
    The conventional style involves the use of the erector spinae, trapezius, quadriceps and hamstring muscles (Stone & O'Bryant, 1987). Further analysis of the conventional deadlift indicates that the gluteal, latissimus dorsi, teres minor subscapularis, infraspinatus, supraspinatus and biceps brachii all assist with the lift to some degree (Farley, 1995).
    The kinesiology of the conventional style involves setting up with the feet spaced shoulder width apart. Common practise is to use an alternating grip which involves one hand pronated and the other hand supinated to assist with grip strength. Common practise to set up for the initial pull involves aligning the shins close to the bar (Farley, 1995).
    Keeping the load as close to the body as possible should assist with increasing the mechanical advantage for greater force production (Stone & O'Bryant, 1987). In contrast to this, some literature has suggested that keeping the load too close to the body may cause excessive drag and friction against the body that may decrease the efficiency of the lift. Correct starting position indicated by many texts suggests that the pelvic girdle is in line with or slightly below the knees. The back should remain flat and at an angle of forty five degrees to the floor.
    Additional support for this method put forth by Daniels (2003) indicates keeping the back flat and placing the hips below the half squat position. This position is said to put the initial load of the pull on to the quadriceps muscles without placing undue stress on the lumbar region of the spine (Groves, 2000).

    Discussion/ Conclusion:
    Choosing a style of deadlifting can best be suited to a person's individual body mechanics. Many variables come into play that may affect the efficiency of the lift. These factors include torso, leg and arm length (Stone & O'Bryant, 1987).
    Movements are governed by physical laws. Understanding and applying biomechanical principles to deadlifting technique can result in the lift being more energy efficient and allowing greater peak performance. In contrast , poor body mechanics become less efficient and may cause injury (Stone & O'Bryant, 1987).
    Mechanical work can be described as force exerted on an object over a distance it is dislaced (Siff, 2000). For efficient use of force, the displacement should be along the same line and in opposite direction to the resisting force of the load (Stone & O'Bryant, 1987). This gives additional support to keeping the bar close to the body while deadlifting which will assist with a more efficient movement and less wasted effort. This may be due to the reduced moment arm of fornce.
    In contrast to much of the research put forth, I suggest a different starting position to the conventional deadlift that may assist those lifters who tend to be of taller stature with longer arm length. Both sumo and conventional styles have been studied extensively but minimal research has been done in what I call a semi round back style which may contra-indicate some previous research with regards to lumbar spine loading.
    The semi round back style involves a similar initial set up to the conventional style but the hip girdle is set at a higher start position for the initial pull. This position would be almost a quarter squat position with the upper back kept flat and at a ten degree lean to the floor, as opposed to forty five degrees lean suggested in many texts.
    Previous research has suggested that a person maybe more biomechanical efficient in the quarter squat position than in the half squat position. Studies have indicated that greater loads can be used in the partial quarter squat movement than the half squat (Siff, 2000).
    The semi round method also allows for the bar to travel in a straight line. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, therefore this can decrease the distance of travel. The conventional method causes the lifters lower limbs to shift forward in the starting position. This will cause the bar to travel in a 'S' type motion with the load moving away from the body and then moving back towards the body once the load has cleared the knees.
    This gives rise to the idea of trying to turn the deadlift into the quarter squat motion but the load being off the floor. For this to occur, the lifter must have an extremely strong upper and lower back. The higher starting position can reduce the displacement of the load and therefore in turn reduce the amount of work performed.
    Studies by Horn (1988) suggest that electromyographic activity in the spinal erector muscles were twice as active in conventional lifters when compared with sumo technique. Cholewicki et al (1991) studied the lumbar spine load of both sumo and conventional technique. No significant difference was found in disc compression force at L4/L5 regions using both techniques. There were significantly greater L4/L5 moments and load shear forces in the conventional technique. This may suggest that the greater forward lean of round back technique may further increase L4/L5 moments and shear forces indicating that much caution must be taken when considering this method for athletes as for the increased risk of injury to the lower back region.
    This type of lifting conflicts with much of the research that suggests correct deadlift form. In the absence of previous research, experiential evidence has indicated that using the semi round back method has resulted in three athletes breaking world deadlift records in WPC and WDFPL federations. Other competition results include a further five lifters who have broken Victorian state and Australian national records. This may be due to reduced bar displacement and therefore reducing the amount of work performed. This technique has only worked for taller type lifters, which may be more biomechanical efficient for those with longer type levers.
    Much assistance work must be employed to strengthen the abdominal, spinal erector, hamstring, gluteal and upper back muscles for this method to be effective. Care and patience must be exercised if considering using the round back method as a preferred style.
    Further research in this area is needed to investigate differential leverages and the muscles responsible for effective motion. When considering various techniques, individual body leverages need to be taken into account along with the assessment of the individuals muscle strengths and weaknesses. Caution should be used before considering this technique due to the increased risk of injury. If employed correctly, the semi round back method may lead to greater competition totals for the powerlifter.
    References
    Cholewicki, J., McGill, S. and Norman, R. (1991). Lumbar Spine Loads During the Lifting of Extremely Heavy Weights. Medical Science Journal of Sports Exercise. Vol 23, pp1179- 1186.
    Daniels, D. (2003). Deadlift 101, Part 1. Powerlifting USA. Vol 26. No.8.
    Groves, B. (2000). Powerlifting: Technique and Training for Athletic Muscular Development. Champaign: Human Kinetics.
    Farley,K. (1995). Analysis if the Conventional Deadlift. Strength and Conditioning Journal. Vol 15, No. 2, pp 55-58.
    McGuigan, R.M. & Wilson, B.D. (1996). Biomechanical Analysis of the Deadlift. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 10(4), 250-255.
    Piper, T.J. & Waller, M.A. (2001). Variations of the Deadlift. Strength and Conditioning Journal. Vol 23, No. 3, pp 66-73.
    Stone, M. & O'Bryant, H. (1987). Weight Training: A Scientific Approach. (2nd ed.). Edina: Burgess International.



    So you mean to tell me that doing bicep curls are going to stimulate more actual musclegrowth than deads? Or tricep pushdowns going to put on more muscle than deads?

    Of course they don't. You are taxing your whole body. Your lowerback is taking a huge load. Have you ever deaded weight that you actually strain on?

    As for the studies....read them again.....the studies show that GH response is higher in regards to a more taxing exercise....ie....deadlift, squat. As for long term GH response, the studies are not quite as clear. I can tell you anecdotally that a lift that is more taxing on your body and uses more muscles will be harder on the body and cause more muscle growth.......even more CNS activity.

  3. #13
    curgeo
    Guest

    Re: Now, who was it exactly that said you need to deadlift to get good at deadlifts?

    Look, I could care less if you do them or not. If powerlifting...the weakness of the dead has to be trained, but if bodybuilding, you are selling yourself short by not adding them into your routine.

    Do whatever your little heart desires. But don't spout off about mechanics of an exercise you don't do.

  4. #14
    curgeo
    Guest

    Re: Now, who was it exactly that said you need to deadlift to get good at deadlifts?

    More anecdotal evidence from AF.

    On squatting and GH
    http://.infopop.net/2...742#4230994742

  5. #15
    Mad Scientist bignate73's Avatar
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    Re: Now, who was it exactly that said you need to deadlift to get good at deadlifts?

    the posterior chain is exactly that: calves, hams, glutes, erectors....neck to feet. thats one half the body thats concentrically contracting, if not some isometric. stabilizing as a term doesnt mean that no work is being done. anyone who has done static holds under max load can tell you that. I really beg to differ saying that its a leg exercise with some "stabilizing". this is about as full body as you can get, unless its a power clean or similar OLY move. every muscle is either involved in the movement, or keeping you from collapsing during the movement.

  6. #16
    Elite Dementor WalkingBeast's Avatar
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    Re: Now, who was it exactly that said you need to deadlift to get good at deadlifts?

    Quote Quote posted by Debaser
    I believe that's a myth. The deadlift is mainly a leg movement, the upper body essentially anchors the bar to your body so your lower body can lift it. The growth hormone release is negligible at best. Another locker room rumor.

    If you can show me evidence proving otherwise, I'm all ears.

    Maybe its just me, but I felt deadlifts the most in my lower back and also didnt use much legs at all when I did the movement. My arms are also pretty long for my height. No leg soreness the next day at all. Lower back and traps got the most out of deads for me. I also agree that deads arent necessary for hypertrophy though. I couldve got better results with heavy shrugs and hyper extentions most likely. Deads just became an addiction. I didnt get any measurable upper back size from them AT ALL. Waist and most likely traps increased. Thats about it.
    Lifting Videos:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4A4lWT65ng

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    5'8 242 lbs , cold flexed measurements: 56 chest, 19 1/2 arms, 29 quads, BIG waist

    KILL THAT SHlT


  7. #17
    Debaser
    Guest

    Re: Now, who was it exactly that said you need to deadlift to get good at deadlifts?

    Quote Quote posted by curgeo
    Look, I could care less if you do them or not. If powerlifting...the weakness of the dead has to be trained, but if bodybuilding, you are selling yourself short by not adding them into your routine.

    Do whatever your little heart desires. But don't spout off about mechanics of an exercise you don't do.
    You're missing the point again. I do deadlift. Did I not say they were a great functional exercise? I simply stated that they weren't necessary, or optimal for hypertrophy.

  8. #18
    Mad Scientist bignate73's Avatar
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    Re: Now, who was it exactly that said you need to deadlift to get good at deadlifts?

    it all boils down to functional and "bang for your buck".

    you can do alot of unnatural isolation movements, and spend alot of time doing it. or you can do something that overloads a number of muscle groups, and you save time in the gym.

    just my opinion.

  9. #19
    Debaser
    Guest

    Re: Now, who was it exactly that said you need to deadlift to get good at deadlifts?

    Quote Quote posted by curgeo
    Stabilizing? So when you deadlift heavy your lower back doesn't get sore? How the hell do you do them then? Do you not arch your back hard?
    If I arch my back hard, and it stays that way, it is "stabilizing." Thus, not a prime mover, because it doesn't move. What does getting sore have to do with ANYTHING? You could do static hold bench presses all day and have one hell of a sore chest, but so what?

    *insert study that proves absolutely nothing, yet again*
    You keep posting studies that are completely irrelevent. I know the biomechanics of the deadlift. You don't seem to understand the difference between a static role and a prime mover.


    So you mean to tell me that doing bicep curls are going to stimulate more actual musclegrowth than deads? Or tricep pushdowns going to put on more muscle than deads?
    They're sure as hell going to do more for your biceps/triceps than deads are. Of course they're going to put on "more muscle" because they're working much larger muscle groups.

    Of course they don't. You are taxing your whole body. Your lowerback is taking a huge load. Have you ever deaded weight that you actually strain on?
    Again, show one shred of evidence that would lead one to conclude that deadlifting would do more for your biceps than curls, more for your lats than pullups, more for your traps than shrugs/rows, etc. Bet ya can't.

    I have deadlifted heavy, to failure, from singles to 20 rep rest-paused. You're using faulty logic here. From the thought that you're "taxing your whole body," you're concluding that it's optimal for hypertrophy of the upper body. You're making a hasty conclusion. The important piece of information you're neglecting is this: the load received by the prime movers, rather than statics, are going to experience far greater hypertrophy. If this weren't true, we'd all be doing Cisco's static contraction training.

    As for the studies....read them again.....the studies show that GH response is higher in regards to a more taxing exercise....ie....deadlift, squat. As for long term GH response, the studies are not quite as clear. I can tell you anecdotally that a lift that is more taxing on your body and uses more muscles will be harder on the body and cause more muscle growth.......even more CNS activity.
    I read them but I'm not seeing the one that shows a deadlift or squat vs. another, less taxing exercise, and the difference in GH release. The only studies I saw had multiple exercises, or compared trained athletes to untrained, or other discrepencies. If you could point out the study that shows that it would be helpful.

    The problem is that the CNS isn't responsible for muscle growth. You can tax it all you want, and not see increased muscle growth as a direct result.

  10. #20
    Dial_tone's Avatar
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    Re: Now, who was it exactly that said you need to deadlift to get good at deadlifts?

    I hate when people go gettin all technical....shut up and train.
    "Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."


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