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Why use oral gear??

acneman

New member
With all the serious and dangerous sides associated with oral steroids why use them?

what can pills do that needles cant?

im not a hater just curious.
ive never tried even dbol so i just dont know.
ive seen posts of all orals cycles and 70/30 orals and ouch my liver hurts and i think my heart is trying to escape.
 
orals more effectively lower SHBG (increasing free levels of other steroids), they have a number of non-genomic effects, they produce high blood levels of active steroids (peaks) that can be quite useful.

they are not a necessity, but they do have their own benefits often quite different from injectable steroids.
 
so lets see if i have this right

non-genomic effects reffering to other than normal genetic response to exogenic hormones specifically rapid onset of effects of the AAS by bypassing normal biological steps in the body to use the hormone and perhaps other unspecified positive effects not created by the endogenis hormone

and lowering SHBG
Sex hormones such as testosterone are inactive when bound by SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) and free or active when not.

so useing oral AAS = more rapid gains and higher peak levels of hormones(of all exogenic hormones in the "stack") and "other" nongenomic positive responses?

I have found only one article so far on exogenic male hormone nongenomic effects but couldnt read it cause it cost 30 bucks to buy it. so what might the "other" nongenomic effects be?

and thanks for a very quick and intelligent reply
 
For me, var at 60mgs/day = 10lbs keepable gains, keepable strength gains, almost zero sides, no change in lipids.

Test prop = terrible back acne, still got it moths later, hair thinned out as well.
 
under said:
For me, var at 60mgs/day = 10lbs keepable gains, keepable strength gains, almost zero sides, no change in lipids.

Test prop = terrible back acne, still got it moths later, hair thinned out as well.

seems to me you have great genetics. some folks can smoke and drink all day for 30 years and have no sides but others are sick within months
 
If you stick to the recommended doses and period of usage and adding a liver protector (eg Milk Thistle) Orals in combination with injectibles can produce Excellent results fast with minimal side effects.
 
AhMadKooL said:
If you stick to the recommended doses and period of usage and adding a liver protector (eg Milk Thistle) Orals in combination with injectibles can produce Excellent results fast with minimal side effects.

really?
was reading others posts reporting sides shown in blood work within 2 weeks
and what would be an example of minimal in your opinion?

ive seen some of your posts and im truly intrested in your input
thanks
 
Tweakle said:
why not try them and find out for yourself.

yeah firget learning just do it "nike"
give results while on waiting list for new liver.

now seriously i know why you said that
you can tell i dont like them from the tone of my post
ive never used them and think there dangerous and unnecesary
but id like to learn more about them
mabey im wrong
 
I'm not strongly pro or con when it comes to orals... I use them periodically, and when I do, I use them wisely... I take moderate amounts and I take precautionary measures to protect my heart and liver... orals have their sides, yes... but injectables do too... they might not be as harsh on your liver as some orals, but they do have their sides... for example, test affects your cholesterol... tren is highly androgenic (can affect the prostate, cause hair loss, etc.)...EQ raises RBC's...etc... most AAS can be used intelligently, both oral and injectable... don't be fooled into think that one is safer / harsher than the other

acneman: curious... what are your AAS of choice?
 
njmuscleguy said:
acneman: curious... what are your AAS of choice?

true about the sides of injectables but the possible sides of injectibles are far less serious than oral imho

ive really only used tes ena and deca for my use
would have liked to try tren but the reasons i wanted to try it
seem to have fallen out of favor

havent touched gear in 4 years was banned from this site for asking about a liquid x site(at that time it was considered a source post, but not 1 month before i was banned and apparently not now)

my deal for 2 of three cycles was test enathate deca and insulin (wrote a song about it. wanna here it? here it go! http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-156144.html)at one point gained 43 pounds and kept 28 after pct and diet
195 > 238 = 223 6 months later
 
truckdaddy said:
i have never had a prob with orals....be safe, throw in some tylers and your cooking with gas baby!

well ive yet to see a serious advantage to using them
good point by macro about SHBG but insulin does the same thing and the only documented side of insulin (while serious, dead serious) is easily avoided and non issue after stopping the insulin
also i have an unverifed suspicion of tylers and milkthisle that they might just mask the symptoms of liver damage not prevent it
and while the liver can regenerate from damage some people are using oral only or long oral inclusive stacks and i think its asking for trouble
 
acneman said:
well ive yet to see a serious advantage to using them
good point by macro about SHBG but insulin does the same thing and the only documented side of insulin (while serious, dead serious) is easily avoided and non issue after stopping the insulin
also i have an unverifed suspicion of tylers and milkthisle that they might just mask the symptoms of liver damage not prevent it
and while the liver can regenerate from damage some people are using oral only or long oral inclusive stacks and i think its asking for trouble


tlyers is good stuff.......even doctors love it. Keep your oral cycles short and you will be fine
 
acneman said:
really?
was reading others posts reporting sides shown in blood work within 2 weeks
and what would be an example of minimal in your opinion?

ive seen some of your posts and im truly intrested in your input
thanks

Well I'll give you an example from my own experience, I've used the following orals:

1) Dbol @ 30mg ED for 4 weeks
2) Anvar @ 100 mg ED for 4 weeks
3) Tbol @ 60 mg ED for 4 weeks

As you can see I've never exceeded more than 4 weeks; also I've run Milk thistle with them. The only side effect i got was a bit of bloating on Dbol. I've checked my liver enzyme levels after doing PCT and everything was in good order.
 
I"ve ran high doses of d-bol and a-bombs for 6-8 wks and never had any problems.The way orals affect somebody is as different as the way injectables affect somebody.Experiment and get blood work done so you know what is going on with your body.
 
ok ill give you that orals are safe used correctly with reservations

but are they better than safer injectables
 
That would depend on the person,which oral we are comparing to which injectable.I really don"t get any sides even when running high doses. This is all dependent on the individual. Most will say that injectables are safer than orals for the majority of the population.
 
solidspine said:
To my knowledge D-bol is not available as an injectable,


Or I would take it.
wasnt that mexican vet dbol liquid intended for injection
it was just so dirty everyone took it orally
if i remember when it was available the folks would use needles to empty gel caps and fill with the liquid cause it tasted so bad it was undrinkable even frozen

man those were the days

when that guy asked if injecting in the butt meant the actual asshole
you guys hurt his feelings and he started his own roid board and everybody on it got busted

maxbicepts rat ate his roids

handsomeboymodelingschool

you could buy roids manufatured in a professional lab

Ttokyo ruled until godzilla busted them for K
 
acneman said:
wasnt that mexican vet dbol liquid intended for injection
it was just so dirty everyone took it orally
if i remember when it was available the folks would use needles to empty gel caps and fill with the liquid cause it tasted so bad it was undrinkable even frozen

man those were the days

when that guy asked if injecting in the butt meant the actual asshole
you guys hurt his feelings and he started his own roid board and everybody on it got busted

maxbicepts rat ate his roids

handsomeboymodelingschool

you could buy roids manufatured in a professional lab

Ttokyo ruled until godzilla busted them for K


reforvit ...was it and the best were the pictures of the outlines or shapes of animals on the bottle lmao

the asshole injecting thread was the o-ring one

and yes those were the days
 
The reason why most orals are still used is because not everybody has negative sides from taking them.

I can take Dbol and get some bloat and some occasional acne and the first few weeks with elevated BP, but they all seem to subside. I get worse acne from nandrolones. High test levels can give me an elevated BP level as well.

You just have to know how to counter-balance each compound whether it is oral or injected.

BMJ
 
anyone know of any studies of the effects of oral steriods on the liver, compared to alcohol effects on the liver?
 
njmuscleguy said:
I'm not strongly pro or con when it comes to orals... I use them periodically, and when I do, I use them wisely... I take moderate amounts and I take precautionary measures to protect my heart and liver... orals have their sides, yes... but injectables do too... they might not be as harsh on your liver as some orals, but they do have their sides... for example, test affects your cholesterol... tren is highly androgenic (can affect the prostate, cause hair loss, etc.)...EQ raises RBC's...etc... most AAS can be used intelligently, both oral and injectable... don't be fooled into think that one is safer / harsher than the other

acneman: curious... what are your AAS of choice?

I respectfully disagree. Orals cause more side effects. All the injectables you listed and each having their given side effects...most if not all orals affect all the side effects you listed. For example, test effects your cholesterol = so does every oral. Tren is highly androgenic = dbol/abombs? I know tren is extremely powerful and its somewhat of an extreme example in comparison to orals. But my point is....orals IMO are more harsh on the body than injectables.

I do use them...but in moderation. I was not part of that whole 100mg ed of var kick that a bunch of people were on a little while back.
 
well some support kinda

if youre in a hurry frontload and add a week to your cycle wont you get the same results just a couple of weeks later doing that instead of orals and then your liver will be good with some fava beans and a nice chianti

oh BTW ill match anyone on this board pound for pound
my pic
http://www.ssqq.com/romance/images/fat guy.jpg
 
so you'll jump on the insulin bandwagon, but nil orals.

thats hardcore mane.
 
orals break up the monotony of ED injections :)
Plus orlas like Var are broken down in the lymphatic system (kidneys) so its bioavailability thru orals is real good, unlike say Andriol.

Fav orals: Oxandolone, Mesterolone, Stanozolol
 
Objectives: To investigate the effects of two different regimens of androgenic-anabolic steroid (AAS) administration on serum lipid and lipoproteins, and recovery of these variables after drug cessation, as indicators of the risk for cardiovascular disease in healthy male strength athletes.

Methods: In a non-blinded study (study 1) serum lipoproteins and lipids were assessed in 19 subjects who self administered AASs for eight or 14 weeks, and in 16 non-using volunteers. In a randomised double blind, placebo controlled design, the effects of intramuscular administration of nandrolone decanoate (200 mg/week) for eight weeks on the same variables in 16 bodybuilders were studied (study 2). Fasting serum concentrations of total cholesterol, triglycerides, HDL-cholesterol (HDL-C), HDL2-cholesterol (HDL2-C), HDL3-cholesterol (HDL3-C), apolipoprotein A1 (Apo-A1), apolipoprotein B (Apo-B), and lipoprotein (a) (Lp(a)) were determined.

Results: In study 1 AAS administration led to decreases in serum concentrations of HDL-C (from 1.08 (0.30) to 0.43 (0.22) mmol/l), HDL2-C (from 0.21 (0.18) to 0.05 (0.03) mmol/l), HDL3-C (from 0.87 (0.24) to 0.40 (0.20) mmol/l, and Apo-A1 (from 1.41 (0.27) to 0.71 (0.34) g/l), whereas Apo-B increased from 0.96 (0.13) to 1.32 (0.28) g/l. Serum Lp(a) declined from 189 (315) to 32 (63) U/l. Total cholesterol and triglycerides did not change significantly. Alterations after eight and 14 weeks of AAS administration were comparable. No changes occurred in the controls. Six weeks after AAS cessation, serum HDL-C, HDL2-C, Apo-A1, Apo-B, and Lp(a) had still not returned to baseline concentrations. Administration of AAS for 14 weeks was associated with slower recovery to pretreatment concentrations than administration for eight weeks. In study 2, nandrolone decanoate did not influence serum triglycerides, total cholesterol, HDL-C, HDL2-C, HDL3-C, Apo-A1, and Apo-B concentrations after four and eight weeks of intervention, nor six weeks after withdrawal. However, Lp(a) concentrations decreased significantly from 103 (68) to 65 (44) U/l in the nandrolone decanoate group, and in the placebo group a smaller reduction from 245 (245) to 201 (194) U/l was observed. Six weeks after the intervention period, Lp(a) concentrations had returned to baseline values in both groups.

Conclusions: Self administration of several AASs simultaneously for eight or 14 weeks produces comparable profound unfavourable effects on lipids and lipoproteins, leading to an increased atherogenic lipid profile, despite a beneficial effect on Lp(a) concentration. The changes persist after AAS withdrawal, and normalisation depends on the duration of the drug abuse. Eight weeks of administration of nandrolone decanoate does not affect lipid and lipoprotein concentrations, although it may selectively reduce Lp(a) concentrations. The effect of this on atherogenesis remains to be established.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Keywords: nandrolone decanoate; androgenic-anabolic steroids; bodybuilding; lipids; lipoproteins


Abbreviations: AAS, androgenic-anabolic steroid; Apo-A1, apolipoprotein A1; Apo-B, apolipoprotein B; HDL-C, high density lipoprotein cholesterol; LDL-C, low density lipoprotein cholesterol; Lp(a), lipoprotein (a)

The misuse of androgenic-anabolic steroids (AASs) in young, healthy strength athletes has been associated with the occurrence of premature cardiovascular events.1–3 These events may in part be mediated by the adverse effects on serum lipid variables that have been linked to AAS administration. Previous studies have indicated that the use of AAS results in decreases in high density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C) and apolipoprotein A1 (Apo-A1; the major component of the HDL particle), and increases in low density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL-C).4–8 A growing number of strength athletes misuse AASs to obtain a well shaped body or increase muscular strength. Most athletes take AASs for periods of 8–12 weeks several times a year.9–11 Self administration of AASs may result in much higher doses than recommended, with possibly more severe side effects and more profound effects on serum lipids and lipoproteins. In particular, the orally active 17--alkyl steroids have been shown to have severe effects on LDL-C and HDL-C.8,12

Various studies have suggested that the concentration of lipoprotein (a) (Lp(a)) is an independent risk indicator for the development of vascular disease.13–15 The fat composition of Lp(a) is comparable to that of LDL-C, but the most important difference is the presence of a specific apoprotein (a).16,17 This protein is attached to apolipoprotein B (Apo-B) by a disulphide bridge. A close correlation has been reported between the serum concentration of Lp(a) and the accumulation of this particle in the vascular wall.18,19 The serum concentration of Lp(a) seems to be genetically determined and, when raised, cannot be lowered by alterations in food intake or taking cholesterol lowering drugs.20–22 Previous reports have suggested that, in contrast with their detrimental effects on lipids, AASs may favourably lower Lp(a) concentrations.23–26

The aim of the present studies was to investigate the effects of AASs on lipoproteins and lipids in healthy, young strength athletes. To obtain more insight into the relation between dose of AAS and the response on plasma lipid variables, we performed two prospective studies: one controlled, non-blinded investigation and a randomised, double blind, placebo controlled study. The first investigated the effects of self administration of high doses of AASs on these variables. In the second study, the effects of a commonly used single AAS, nandrolone decanoate, on lipoprotein risk factors and Lp(a) were examined. In both studies we also assessed the recovery of the lipoprotein and lipid variables after cessation of drug administration.


SUBJECTS AND METHODS
TOP
ABSTRACT
SUBJECTS AND METHODS
RESULTS
DISCUSSION
REFERENCES


This study was part of a larger one exploring the effects of AASs on body composition, exercise performance, and health status in male strength athletes.27 Subjects were recruited by flyers in regional gym clubs. About 90 strength athletes volunteered to participate in one or more of these studies after they had been given detailed informed. All volunteers completed an extensive questionnaire with questions on health status, history, training habits, and the use of AASs, and had a full physical examination to exclude any relevant diseases. Inclusion criteria were: male; bodybuilding training experience of at least three years; at least four strength training workouts a week or eight hours of strength training a week; aged 20–45 years. The following exclusion criteria were set: hypertension, diabetes mellitus, liver disease or abnormal liver enzyme serum concentrations, hereditary hypercholesterolaemia, raised serum cholesterol (>6.5 mmol/l), infertility, and smoking.

The study was approved by the medical ethical review committee of Maastricht University and the University Hospital Maastricht, and all subjects gave their written informed consent before participating.

Study 1
This was a prospective, non-blinded investigation of the effects of AAS self administration. Thirty five male strength athletes participated. Nineteen self administered AASs for eight or 14 weeks in addition to their usual strength training (AAS group). Nine used AASs for eight weeks, and the remaining 10 for on average 14 weeks (range 12–16). Sixteen controls performed strength training without using AASs (CO group). Table 1 presents the physical and training characteristics of the two groups.




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Table 1 Baseline characteristics of the participants of the androgenic-anabolic steroid (AAS) self administration study (study 1)



The subjects in the CO group had never used AASs. All except one subject in the AAS group had previous experience of AAS self administration. On average, they had started AAS use 4.8 years previously (range 1–14). The mean number of cycles used was 7.1 (range 1–30).
The participants were expected to have been drug free for at least three months before the start of the study. From information supplied by the subjects, the AAS users had been drug free for 8.1 (6.4) months. However, to objectively exclude recent drug use, urine was collected from all subjects for drug analysis.

The subjects in the AAS group purchased the AASs on the black market, although some subjects had received a prescription from a doctor. They designed their AAS courses on the basis of their own experience and beliefs. They administered several steroids (oral and intramuscular) simultaneously. The total amount administered by each participant during the study by far exceeded the recommended therapeutic dose. Table 2 presents a detailed description of the AASs used by each subject. The investigators were not involved in purchasing and administering these compounds nor did they recommend doses.




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Table 2 Total amount of androgenic-anabolic steroids (AASs) and other drugs used by each subject



At baseline, and after 8 (and after 14, depending on the duration of use) weeks of AAS use, and six weeks after cessation, blood was drawn from the antecubital vein after a 10 hour fast, for the measurement of serum lipids and lipoproteins.
Study 2
This was a randomised, double blind, placebo controlled clinical trial. Sixteen well trained recreational bodybuilders volunteered to participate. None had previously used AASs. Table 3 presents their physical and training data.




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Table 3 Baseline characteristics of the participants of the double blind, randomised, placebo controlled study (study 2)



All volunteers visited the laboratory weekly for the administration of an intramuscular injection of a high dose (200 mg) of nandrolone decanoate (n = 9) or placebo consisting of arachis oil (n = 7) for eight weeks. At baseline, after the four and eight week intervention periods, and six weeks after cessation, blood was drawn after a 10 hour fast for the measurement of serum lipids and lipoproteins.
Monitoring nutrition, training, and compliance
In both studies, all subjects maintained their regular training and nutritional regimens, and both kept diaries which were monitored. In study 1, before the start of the study and in week 8, all subjects of both groups recorded their training workouts and hours in a seven day training diary and their nutritional habits with the aid of a three day nutritional diary. The AAS users also made similar records in week 6 after drug withdrawal. Volunteers who self administered AASs for 14 weeks also recorded training and nutritional data in the last week of AAS use. In study 2, training and nutritional data were collected at baseline, after the four and eight week intervention period, and six weeks after the administration of nandrolone decanoate or placebo had been stopped.

Weekly training hours were assessed from the training data. The intake of protein, fat (saturated and unsaturated), carbohydrates, cholesterol, linoleic acid, vitamins, and trace elements was calculated from the nutritional diaries using the computer program Becel (version NL04a; Unilever, Rotterdam, the Netherlands).

To objectively monitor compliance in all subjects, urine samples were collected for drug analysis several times. In study 1, urine samples were collected from all volunteers at baseline and after the eight week study period. In addition, samples were collected from the AAS users six weeks after AAS withdrawal, and from the long term users after 14 weeks. In the double blind study, urine samples were collected at baseline, after four and eight weeks, and six weeks after the end of the intervention period. Overall, 163 urine samples were collected, 99 in study 1 and 64 in study 2. About one third of the total were randomly selected for analysis by the Netherlands Institute for Drug and Doping Research (NIDDR), Utrecht, the Netherlands to detect metabolites of anabolic agents. This resulted in 34 samples from study 1 being analysed and 25 from study 2.

Measurements
Serum total cholesterol (CHOD-PAP; Roche, Basel, Switzerland) and triglycerides (Triglycerid Rapid; Roche) were determined by enzymatic methods on a Cobas Bio analyser. HDL-C was measured enzymatically after precipitation of low density and very low density lipoproteins with poly(ethylene glycol) 6000. Apo-A1 and apo-B were determined by an immunoturbidimetric assay (Roche) on a Cobas MIRA analyser. The within and between assay coefficients of variation were 1.9 and 6.9% respectively for both determinations. Serum apolipoprotein (a) concentration was measured by a solid phase, two site immunoradiometric assay using two monoclonal antibodies to different epitopes of apolipoprotein (a) (Pharmacia Diagnostics, Uppsala, Sweden). The within assay coefficient of variation was 4% at a Lp(a) concentration of 200 mg/l, and the between assay variation was 7%. An apolipoprotein (a) concentration of 1 U/l is equal to 1 mg/l Lp(a).

Statistical analysis
Data are expressed as mean (SD) unless otherwise reported. Results were analysed on the StatView version 4.02 statistical software package (Abacus Concepts, Berkeley, California, USA). Group differences in baseline variables were compared by the Mann-Whitney U test. The same test was applied to compare changes in lipid variables between the treatment groups. Intragroup comparison of lipid variables after drug cessation with baseline data were performed with the Wilcoxon signed rank test, because data from non-using controls were only available for eight weeks. p<0.05 was considered significant.


RESULTS
TOP
ABSTRACT
SUBJECTS AND METHODS
RESULTS
DISCUSSION
REFERENCES


Study 1
Table 1 gives the physical and training characteristics of the 35 participants of the self administration study. At baseline, the AAS and CO group were comparable with respect to age, height, weight, training experience, and weekly training hours. Nutritional intake of AAS users and controls was comparable. No significant differences in lipid and lipoprotein variables between the two groups were observed.

During the study all subjects maintained their regular training regimens. No change in weekly training hours was observed in any subject. The same was true for nutritional intake. AAS use led to no significant changes in serum triglycerides and total cholesterol, but a considerable increase in LDL-C was found, and a significant fall in HDL-C (from 1.08 (0.30) to 0.43 (0.22) mmol/l), HDL2-C (from 0.21 (0.18) to 0.05 (0.03) mmol/l), and HDL3-C (from 0.87 (0.24) to 0.40 (0.20) mmol/l). These changes were paralleled by a 35% increase in Apo-B concentrations (from 0.96 (0.13) to 1.32 (0.28) g/l), and a 50% decrease in Apo-A1 (from 1.41 (0.27) to 0.71 (0.34) g/l). Also a significant reduction in Lp(a) concentration from 189 (315) to 32 (63) U/l was observed (table 4).




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Table 4 Sequence of changes in serum lipids and lipoproteins induced by eight weeks of anabolic-androgenic steroid self administration and recovery after drug cessation (study 1)



After AAS self administration was stopped, the lipoprotein variables only slowly returned to normal; six weeks after AAS withdrawal they had not returned to baseline concentrations. Recovery was significantly slower after 14 weeks of AAS use than after eight weeks. In particular, Lp(a) concentrations remained decreased in the long term users, whereas in the short term users there was a complete return to baseline values six weeks after drug withdrawal (table 5).



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Table 5 Influence of duration of anabolic-androgenic steroid self administration on lipoprotein variables and on recovery after cessation of use



At baseline, all urine samples analysed were free of AASs and metabolites. After the eight week study period, urinanalysis of the CO group was negative. As expected, the urine samples of the AAS group contained a large variety of metabolites of androgenic-anabolic substances after eight and (when applicable) after 14 weeks. In addition, six weeks after AAS withdrawal, in several urine samples of AAS users small amounts of metabolites of various esterified AASs were still detectable.
Study 2
At the start, the physical characteristics, training data, and nutritional habits of the two groups were comparable. Table 6 presents the baseline serum lipoprotein and lipid concentrations of the 16 participants in the double blind nandrolone study. There were no significant differences between the two groups at the start.




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Table 6 Sequence of serum concentrations of lipids and lipoproteins of the bodybuilders in the randomised, double blind, placebo controlled study (study 2)



Both placebo and nandrolone decanoate had no effect on total cholesterol, HDL-C, HDL2-C, HDL3-C, LDL-C, and triglycerides. Also, no significant changes in Apo-A1 and Apo-B were observed. Lp(a) concentrations in the bodybuilders who received nandrolone decanoate decreased significantly from 103 U/l (range 8–227) to 65 U/l (range 8–130), which is a reduction of about 40%. In the placebo treated subjects, a significant reduction in Lp(a) concentration was also observed. The baseline value was 245 U/l (range 38–756) and after eight weeks it was 201 U/l (range 46–617), a decrement of 19%. However, the changes in Lp(a) were not significantly different between the two groups.
During the study period, training work load and nutritional intake did not change significantly between the two groups. Urinanalysis showed no AASs or metabolites at baseline. After four and eight weeks, the same was true for the placebo group whereas urinalysis of the nandrolone group showed only metabolites of nandrolone decanoate. Six weeks after the intervention period in some subjects who had received verum, small amounts of metabolites of nandrolone decanoate were still present.


DISCUSSION
TOP
ABSTRACT
SUBJECTS AND METHODS
RESULTS
DISCUSSION
REFERENCES


AAS induced changes
In experienced strength athletes, the use of polydrug regimens of AASs, which is common practice, resulted in an increase in serum Apo-B concentrations, and a large decrease in serum concentrations of HDL-C, HDL2-C, HDL3-C, and Apo-A1. This leads to an increased risk of cardiovascular disease. The serum concentration of the atherogenic Lp(a) particle was also lowered. Eight weeks of nandrolone decanoate at a high therapeutic dose, however, produced no detrimental effects on serum concentrations of Apo-A1 and Apo-B, triglycerides, total cholesterol, and HDL-C and subfractions. However, a noteworthy, although non-significant, reduction in Lp(a) concentration was observed. A decrease in serum Lp(a) was also found in the placebo group, although this was approximately half of that in the nandrolone treated subjects. However, the net increase in the effect of nandrolone decanoate over placebo on Lp(a) serum concentrations did not reach significance. This lack of significance is probably due to the large differences between individual values of Lp(a) and the small number of subjects in study 2.

Lowering Lp(a) concentrations
The AAS induced effect on serum Lp(a) concentration is of special interest. It is known that Lp(a) is an independent risk indicator for the development of vascular disease.13,14,28,29 In patients with atherosclerosis due to hyperlipidaemia and raised Lp(a) concentrations, it is recommended that serum cholesterol is reduced as much as possible to prevent new events and achieve regression of atherosclerosis. Serum concentrations of Lp(a), however, seem to be genetically determined and, when raised, cannot be lowered by alterations in food intake or taking cholesterol lowering drugs.20,21 However, treatment with nicotinic acid and hormone replacement therapy have been shown to beneficially affect serum Lp(a) concentrations.30 Several studies have found lowered serum Lp(a) concentrations after treatment with testosterone enanthate in eugonadal men,26 and with nandrolone decanoate in postmenopausal women24,25 and haemodialysis patients.31 In a cross sectional study, Cohen and co-workers23 reported that the proportion of subjects with high serum Lp(a) concentrations was lower in multidrug AAS using strength athletes than in their non-using counterparts, suggesting a suppressive effect of multidrug use of AASs on serum Lp(a) concentrations.

In our study, polydrug regimens of AAS use were found to have a strong lowering effect on Lp(a), and the administration of only nandrolone decanoate induced a strong, although non-significant, reduction in this variable. On the other hand, AAS self administration altered the serum concentrations of apolipoproteins, HDL-C, and its subfractions unfavourably, while nandrolone decanoate did not have any effect on these variables. The effect of the AAS induced reduction in Lp(a) in combination with the detrimentally altered concentrations of apolipoproteins and HDL-C and its subfractions on the risk of cardiovascular disease needs to be established.

Distinction between types and doses of AASs
The most pronounced effects on serum lipids and lipoproteins seem to be exerted by the oral 17--alkylated steroids rather than parenterally administered nandrolone decanoate and testosterone esters.8,12,32 As many of the subjects in study 1 took one or more 17--alkylated steroids—that is, methandrostenolone, stanozolol, and oxymetenolone—it seems likely that these agents were responsible for the effects on serum lipids and lipoproteins found in this study. The reduction in serum HDL-C is mediated by hepatic triglyceride lipase, an enzyme that regulates serum lipids.4 Oral AASs stimulate hepatic triglyceride lipase, resulting in decreased serum HDL-C and its subfractions (especially HDL2-C) as well as apo-A1.8,12 Parenteral administration of AASs has less profound effects on this enzyme because they enter the circulation without passing through the liver.33

The Lp(a) lowering effect may be due to testosterone esters and nandrolone decanoate, as shown previously.25,26,34 Moreover, LDL-C, a substance very closely related to the atherogenic Lp(a) particle, may also be favourably affected by Lp(a)-lowering AASs. This needs to be firmly established because only a few studies have shown it.8,33 On the other hand, alterations in Lp(a) and LDL-C concentrations may occur independently of each other.26 The exact mechanism by which AASs decrease Lp(a) concentrations is still unclear, although it has been suggested that it is mediated by decreasing apo-A synthesis.26 Further research is needed.

The effects of AASs on serum lipids and lipoproteins are dose dependent.12,33,35,36 The doses used by the subjects greatly exceeded the maximum therapeutically recommended for all substances used. Therefore all such regimens have high atherogenic risks.

Effect of duration of AAS use
During the last few decades, strength athletes have altered their patterns of AAS self administration. In the early years, long term abuse (continuous administration for many months, even up to several years) was common predominantly orally taken AASs. In the last decade, AAS abusers have reduced the length of administration to reduce the risks. However, they now take more AAS cycles per year, and they use more drugs simultaneously at much higher doses.10,27,37 There are no previous studies on the effect of the duration of polydrug AAS administration on serum lipids and lipoproteins. We observed that serum concentrations of Apo-A1, Apo-B, and HDL-C and its subfractions were not influenced by the duration of AAS use. After 14 weeks, the serum concentrations of these variables were no different from those after eight weeks. It is known that lipid concentrations change most during the first weeks of AAS administration, although the effects of different substances may vary greatly.8 However, the suppressive effect of AAS on serum lipoproteins and lipids persisted during long term administration, but no further worsening of these variables was observed over the study period. These findings indicate that a longer period of AAS misuse is not necessarily accompanied by a greater atherogenic risk, but the risk is prolonged.

Recovery after AAS withdrawal
Six weeks after withdrawal of AASs, serum concentrations of HDL-C, Apo-A1, and Lp(a) were not normalised in the long term AAS users, whereas in the short term users lipids and lipoproteins, except HDL2-C, had returned to baseline concentrations. Recovery of the beneficial decrease in Lp(a) concentrations was also prolonged in long term users compared with short term administration. In the nandrolone decanoate study, the decreased Lp(a) concentrations had recovered completely six weeks after the intervention period. As urinalysis after withdrawal showed traces of androgenic-anabolic substances in a few athletes who self administered AAS, the slow elimination of some drugs may contribute to the slow recovery of altered serum lipids and lipoproteins. We therefore conclude that recovery of serum lipid and lipoprotein concentrations depends on the length of AAS use. Moreover, because of the prolonged deleterious alterations in the lipid profile, long term AAS users have a prolonged increased risk of cardiovascular problems.

Conclusions
In conclusion, self administration of polydrug regimens of AASs in supratherapeutic doses for eight or 14 weeks lowered serum concentrations of HDL-C, HDL2-C, HDL3-C, and Apo-A1, increased the serum concentration of Apo-B, but did not influence serum concentrations of triglycerides and total cholesterol. These alterations were accompanied by an increased atherogenic lipid profile. However, as these regimens also lowered the serum concentration of the atherogenic Lp(a) particle, the effect on the risk of cardiovascular disease remains unclear. Moreover, intramuscular administration of nandrolone decanoate (200 mg a week) for eight weeks did not have any effect on serum concentrations of triglycerides, total cholesterol, HDL-C, HDL2-C, and HDL3-C, although a trend to decreased Lp(a) concentration was found. This may beneficially affect the risk of cardiovascular events.

The effects on serum lipids and lipoproteins were not influenced by the duration of self administration of AASs. However, recovery of the altered serum concentrations of lipids and lipoproteins to baseline values was prolonged in long term (14 weeks) AAS users compared with short term (eight weeks) users. The increased risk of premature disease was therefore prolonged, although the prolonged decrease in serum Lp(a) concentrations may beneficially influence vascular prognosis.
 
acneman said:
true about the sides of injectables but the possible sides of injectibles are far less serious than oral imho
a buddy of mine thought that injects were safer untill he did a injection into his quad hit a nerve hit leg started bouncing around like a flapping fish the needle broke off and his girl had to drive him ot the emergency room to have it removed .the doctor opened his leg up to remove it 3 days later it swelled up to a big abcess he got a staph infection from a dirty scapula during surgery then they cut his quad back open to let the shit ooze out of it and heal from the inside out. To this day all he will do is oral cycles of t-bol,winnie,
 
chazk said:
a buddy of mine thought that injects were safer untill he did a injection into his quad hit a nerve hit leg started bouncing around like a flapping fish the needle broke off and his girl had to drive him ot the emergency room to have it removed .the doctor opened his leg up to remove it 3 days later it swelled up to a big abcess he got a staph infection from a dirty scapula during surgery then they cut his quad back open to let the shit ooze out of it and heal from the inside out. To this day all he will do is oral cycles of t-bol,winnie,

youre pulling my leg :p
 
pitbullrocco said:
i asked macro. he said you once drove that wagon into a middle school, killing 19 children.

but that you were still a big mofo.not really.

hahahahahah no not that big, if you search you can see my pics on here from like 2003
im biger than that but not a lot

but here we go compare insulin to skydiving and orals to drinking

one guy goes skydiving with an instructor
if something goes wrong splat dead but with the instructor there he can pull your cord or other things to keep you safe. once your on the ground nothing bad can happen from your skydiving until you go up again and jump.
and if you jump 1000 times and make it every time (youve gained some knowledge and skill at skydiving so its even safer) once your on the ground nothing can happen to you. thats insulin(except with acnemans plan there is always someone there to keep you from falling so the chances of death are almost nil)

but lets say you drink a lot the chances that you will die from alchol poisening are slim and lets say you never drink and drive your chances of a serious incident one night are slim as well. but once youve finnished drinking for the night your liver has to deal with that stuff and you have a hangover
well hell that was fun ill drink again tonight and again and again and hell ill drink and not even eat for a few days or 1000 days

now do you think drinking is safer than skydiving
who do you think is more likely to die from thier hobby

orals are long term very dangerous and insulin is short term dangerous
the potential for serious danger is with both but you can avoid the dangerous problems of slin and have zero sides
can you say that about oral aas

how many bodybuilders have you heard of dying using insulin??? none.
how many bodybuilders use insulin???? evey single one.

how many bodybuilders have you heard of having heart or liver problems???
how many bodybuilders use oral steroids??? every single one.

mentzer = dead
arnold had heart sugery
etc etc
you be the judge
 
Arnold"s heart surgery=genetics,bad valve in heart, family history/ Mentzer death wasn"t caused by orals.You need better examples to make a point with.Anything used in excess will cause problems.If you think orals are that bad then don"t use them.
 
gettnlarge01 said:
Arnold"s heart surgery=genetics,bad valve in heart, family history/ Mentzer death wasn"t caused by orals.You need better examples to make a point with.Anything used in excess will cause problems.If you think orals are that bad then don"t use them.


if you were the gov and had heart sugery what would you say
didnt mentzer have a heart attack at like 40 or am i wrong

and its true that you cant prove these things were caused by orals and lots of peeps have heartattacks but dont you think that all these juicers are keelin over young like that worlds strongest man contestant dead at 26 couple of years ago is strange???

i dont think its the tes enathate doing it or would all these antiaging docs be stickin all them old folks with it?

hey they are safer than diuretics
 
AhMadKooL said:
Well I'll give you an example from my own experience, I've used the following orals:

1) Dbol @ 30mg ED for 4 weeks
2) Anvar @ 100 mg ED for 4 weeks
3) Tbol @ 60 mg ED for 4 weeks

As you can see I've never exceeded more than 4 weeks; also I've run Milk thistle with them. The only side effect i got was a bit of bloating on Dbol. I've checked my liver enzyme levels after doing PCT and everything was in good order.

have your cholesterol done?



Unless you plan to compete, or have very special genetics which allow for favourable lipids, orals are not necessary.



I think is interesting how almost everyone on this thread knows their heart is fine just by how they feel. I wish I could tell my heart's condition by the way I feel.
 
acneman said:
if you were the gov and had heart sugery what would you say
didnt mentzer have a heart attack at like 40 or am i wrong

Gentics play a large role in our health.My father had a heart attack at 41 and never used any gear.Could Mentzer have had a family history of heart problems?Stress will wreck your health regardless of where it comes from.Lets not forget the bulking diets that we know these guys eat which is loaded alot of unhealthy fats.I understand the point your trying to make,but these people had more in common than just taking orals.
 
gettnlarge01Gentics play a large role in our health.My father had a heart attack at 41 and never used any gear.Could Mentzer have had a family history of heart problems?Stress will wreck your health regardless of where it comes from.Lets not forget the bulking diets that we know these guys eat which is loaded alot of unhealthy fats.I understand the point your trying to make said:
 
Why Do Oral Gear????????????????????
Why Take A Big Breath Of Air Before Jumping Off A Bridge Into The Water????????????????

Because You Have To!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
ninesecz said:
Why Do Oral Gear????????????????????
Why Take A Big Breath Of Air Before Jumping Off A Bridge Into The Water????????????????

Because You Have To!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

well i dont and look at my avatar im huuuugeee

already bombed for my avatar
i think its funny
 
chazk said:
a buddy of mine thought that injects were safer untill he did a injection into his quad hit a nerve hit leg started bouncing around like a flapping fish the needle broke off and his girl had to drive him ot the emergency room to have it removed .the doctor opened his leg up to remove it 3 days later it swelled up to a big abcess he got a staph infection from a dirty scapula during surgery then they cut his quad back open to let the shit ooze out of it and heal from the inside out. To this day all he will do is oral cycles of t-bol,winnie,

Oh yeah, it happens all the time.
 
srf173 said:
Oh yeah, it happens all the time.


i love the smell of sarcasm in the morning

nothing ive heard except mac's shbg thing shows any advantage to using oral gear except quick onset of gains and thats only a week advance on a min 8 week cycle

if you jumpstart a cycle with orals and gain 18 pounds over the cycle how much was orals? 1 / 1.5 lbs?
if you go to doc after that cycle and get blood work and cholesterol and liver values are through the roof how much was orals
liver 98% cholesterol 70%

hurry hurry hurry
or ewwww needles im scared

what ever your reason i recomend patience and psychotherapy for your phobia

cause you can get the same results safer with injectables

THE SAME!!!!!

make it a 9 week cycle and vola you get the extra 1.5 lbs
can you wait one week for your body to grow?
can you wait one week to save your liver for more important things like beer
 
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