Why the fuck does Isreal just "surround" Arafat's compound..

[AAP]

when they get pissed off? They roll their tanks in, surround the compound, and then in a few days break the siege. Why? What is the point of this?

 

[jnuts]

Politics? So CNN can catch it all on video tape and show it around the world?

Or maybe they are just prepping the field. Do it a few times with no firing, then one time they just won't stop. Kinda an inverse "cry wolf"?

Who knows...

 

[AAP]

Politics? So CNN can catch it all on video tape and show it around the world?

Or maybe they are just prepping the field. Do it a few times with no firing, then one time they just won't stop. Kinda an inverse "cry wolf"?

Who knows...

Both very good points.

 

[VicTusDeuS]

1. If they do nothing, Arafat wins..

2. If they kill Arafat, he becomes a martyr which towel heads idolize. Arafat wins again.

3. If they try to arrest him, he has already said he would rather die fighting....Martyr yet again...Arafit still wins.

4. If by any chance they were actually able to arrest him, retaliation from the stinky fucks by way of more suicide bombings is a likely result. Yeah they have Arafat, but the suicide bombings continue, and who will replace him??

We have the same situation with Bin Laden. We want him to suffer more than anyone on earth, but if we kill him he becomes a hero and if we capture him, the stinky muslims who love him will attack us in every way possible until he is free, IF he is freed.

What Isreal is doing is probably the one thing that will hurt him more than anything. He is now trapped. It becomes a nuissance to him because he can't go anywhere. It's kinda like a slap in the face from the jews...Kinda like them saying haha we got you na na na na na na!...And he is somewhat under arrest but not really and he isnt dead so he still isnt a god like hero. This pisses them off more than anything, its kinda like a major disrespect. Very good idea actually.

 

[circusgirl]

sigh. Comparing Arafat with Bin Laden is not helpful here. Arafat has done a great deal for the peace process. Not because he likes the Israelis but because he's smart and knows the Israelis have bigger guns. Shame a lot of his people now regard him as irrelevant. I dunno why Sharon is so fixated on Arafat as it's obvious no-one cares what Arafat thinks. Believe it or not Arafat does not go round personally to each depressed violent teenager in the West Bank and tuck them into bed with "now Johnnie no suicide bombing tomorrow go to school there's a good boy" pep talks. You need to realise folks that the situation does NOT hinge on a single person. Only in Hollywood is that the case.

 

[thebabydoc]

What they should do to Arafat is the equivalent of what the Palestinians are doing to the Israelis- Go and kill his wife and daughter who are living in Paris.

 

[casavant]

What they should do to Arafat is the equivalent of what the Palestinians are doing to the Israelis- Go and kill his wife and daughter who are living in Paris.

Better yet, why don't they just rape them both first, then eviscerate them- all on videotape- and then send it to him. Yeah...that would do the trick.

Sheesh.

 

[kbp74]

LOL

Why dont they just kill him?

Have youi looked on the map where Israel are located and who surrounds them?

If you think the current suicide bombings are bad, and if they were to surround and kill him - you have not a clue what would happen if they did kill him!...Israel would be taken off the map I reckon?!.....not even they have the bottle to kill Arafat..like it or not, if need be all the other islamic nations would have alot to say if they killed him

 

[Lumbuss]

they should just kill arafat and get rid of the paletstinains, isreal is supposed to be a jewish country anyway. then if other arabain nations attack isreal, the usa and russia will just have an excuse now to wipe out those nations. problem solved.

 

[ImSoBig]

some people are so fuckign stupid

 

[L.A.X]

Because Arafats soldiers throw rocks Really, Really Hard.

 

[ImSoBig]

they should just kill arafat and get rid of the paletstinains, isreal is supposed to be a jewish country anyway. then if other arabain nations attack isreal, the usa and russia will just have an excuse now to wipe out those nations. problem solved.

ur a dumbass, if they could get rid of palestianians they would, but they cant, russia likes mid eastern countries more than they like the us, u seem like u have a simple solution, but ur a straight up fucking moron,

 

[circusgirl]

the Israelis are NOT trying to live in peace. It's their constant harassment of the Palestinians and thei insistence on building israeli settlements in the middle of hitherto palestinian territory tht caused this recent intifada.

My sources are from the region and reliable. The Israelis did things like randomly cut off the electricity and water to the Palestinian authority areas just to be annoying. Stuff like that eventually gets on people's nerves.

People in the west believe all of Sharon's propaganda. The wanker is a WAR CRIMINAL wanted in Belgium for chrissake, he's a lunatic. He should be under lock and key, not Arafat.

circusgirl
ps anticipating your bad karma RIGHT NOW folksies!

 

[Lumbuss]

ur a dumbass, if they could get rid of palestianians they would, but they cant, russia likes mid eastern countries more than they like the us, u seem like u have a simple solution, but ur a straight up fucking moron,

dont call me a dumbass when you use words like "ur." we should help them get rid of the palestinians. everyone who doesn't support us in getting rid of them is a moron. wait about 5 months until they drive a crop duster and knock the leaning tower of piza all the way down to the ground, then we will have italy on our side. every time they commit terrorism they lose more and more of their supporters they have, why anyone would support them i do not know.

 

[manny78]

1. If they do nothing, Arafat wins..

2. If they kill Arafat, he becomes a martyr which towel heads idolize. Arafat wins again.

3. If they try to arrest him, he has already said he would rather die fighting....Martyr yet again...Arafit still wins.

4. If by any chance they were actually able to arrest him, retaliation from the stinky fucks by way of more suicide bombings is a likely result. Yeah they have Arafat, but the suicide bombings continue, and who will replace him??

We have the same situation with Bin Laden. We want him to suffer more than anyone on earth, but if we kill him he becomes a hero and if we capture him, the stinky muslims who love him will attack us in every way possible until he is free, IF he is freed.

What Isreal is doing is probably the one thing that will hurt him more than anything. He is now trapped. It becomes a nuissance to him because he can't go anywhere. It's kinda like a slap in the face from the jews...Kinda like them saying haha we got you na na na na na na!...And he is somewhat under arrest but not really and he isnt dead so he still isnt a god like hero. This pisses them off more than anything, its kinda like a major disrespect. Very good idea actually.

Good point. In fact, there's another option left to Israel: why not just kick him out (a nice exile in Paris for example) ?

 

[circusgirl]

What caused the Arab countries to attack Israel?

um, that they just walked in and kicked the Palestinians off their land coz it suited them and europe to do so? Sounds like a good enough reason to me.

Now, Israel does exist now, and I do not advocate its destruction. Whether or not one agrees with its original founding, there are now people who live there, it is their home, and they have threright to stay there. I think however, that somewhere else should have been found for people to go. Montana would ne nice. Better land, no desert, and the neighbours are less aggravated.

The Israeli authorities have been pursuing a campaign of harrassment, discrimination, torture and murder against the Palestinians for decades.
II find it very hard to feel sorry for them as a country now that they are under attack. Of course the suicide bombings are wrong. Of course people shouldn't involve innocent civilians in attacks. I think the Palestinians should concentrate their attacks on Israeli military installations and settlements in agreed Palestinian terrorities. WHAT THE FUCK IS ISRAEL DOING GETTING ISRAELIS TO MOVE INTO SETTLEMENTS IN THE WEST BANK? Israel makes deals, and breaks them whenever it suits them. Hence why the Palestinians feel the need to resort to violence.

I also know for a fact that many Palestinians, including the 40% christian minority, are NOT happy that their resistance has become synonymous with Hamas, nor do they approve of the suicide bombings. Hamas are taking advantage of many seriously depressed, andgry and suicidal young people who feel life is not possible in the current climate.

I do not need to debate the fact that Sharon is a war criminal with you, go argue with the Belgian courts if you want.

Of course this will be followed by many hate-filled posts from anti-arab extremists who seem to think Israel can do no wrong and the Arabs just have some kind of irrational anti-jewish anti-american hatred. The arabs hate israel, but for good reasons...

How many arabs do you know personally? Do you know any Palestinians? Have you spoken to them about their daily lives under Israeli occupation? Have you discussed the situation with them at length? I have.

circusgirl

 

[circusgirl]

okie dokie, off to do some of my own research.

Indicentally, my mother in law is Palestinian.

circusgirl

 

[the nature boy]

also sweetheart, sharon is not a war criminal according to belgian courts. look here at this article http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52158-2002Jun26.html. that incidnent was just more bullshit from the palestinians like the "massacre" at jenin. you cant blame sharon for war crimes committed by lebanese christians in response to war crimes against themselves.

can you repost the link? that one didn't work.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

What caused the Arab countries to attack Israel?

um, that they just walked in and kicked the Palestinians off their land coz it suited them and europe to do so? Sounds like a good enough reason to me.

Now, Israel does exist now, and I do not advocate its destruction. Whether or not one agrees with its original founding, there are now people who live there, it is their home, and they have threright to stay there. I think however, that somewhere else should have been found for people to go. Montana would ne nice. Better land, no desert, and the neighbours are less aggravated.

The Israeli authorities have been pursuing a campaign of harrassment, discrimination, torture and murder against the Palestinians for decades.
II find it very hard to feel sorry for them as a country now that they are under attack. Of course the suicide bombings are wrong. Of course people shouldn't involve innocent civilians in attacks. I think the Palestinians should concentrate their attacks on Israeli military installations and settlements in agreed Palestinian terrorities. WHAT THE FUCK IS ISRAEL DOING GETTING ISRAELIS TO MOVE INTO SETTLEMENTS IN THE WEST BANK? Israel makes deals, and breaks them whenever it suits them. Hence why the Palestinians feel the need to resort to violence.

I also know for a fact that many Palestinians, including the 40% christian minority, are NOT happy that their resistance has become synonymous with Hamas, nor do they approve of the suicide bombings. Hamas are taking advantage of many seriously depressed, andgry and suicidal young people who feel life is not possible in the current climate.

I do not need to debate the fact that Sharon is a war criminal with you, go argue with the Belgian courts if you want.

Of course this will be followed by many hate-filled posts from anti-arab extremists who seem to think Israel can do no wrong and the Arabs just have some kind of irrational anti-jewish anti-american hatred. The arabs hate israel, but for good reasons...

How many arabs do you know personally? Do you know any Palestinians? Have you spoken to them about their daily lives under Israeli occupation? Have you discussed the situation with them at length? I have.

circusgirl

Actually your posts have been among the most informative.

Israel was created by european nations because they didn't want all those Jews in their countries after the war. So it was carved out....world powers sliced off about 1% of the Middle East and said "here you go".

While your assertion that Montana would have been a better choice is cute, the location of present day Israel is influenced largely by the fact that Jews did live there several thousand years ago.

No one ever "needs" to resort to violence. If the Palestinians were effectively led, groups like Hamas and Hezbollah were squashed, and peaceful protest attempted, I suspect world pressure on Israel would force them out of the settlements very quickly. When you have organizations that pay surviving families of a suicide bomber, and Arafat tolerates this, no serious argument can be made that he is doing anything for peace. It just defies common sense to say that in the context of compensating families of terrorists.

If the "majority" of Palestinians are unhappy with Hamas, etc., as you say, then Arafat is not credible as a leader for allowing this to continue. He is impotent and should be removed.

I believe the war crimes charges against Sharon were dropped.

It is important to remember that there has never been a country called Palestine. As I am sure you know (but probably not everyone does), that name was applied by the Roman Empire as an insult to the Jews that were there. The name (I believe, but correct me if I am wrong) derives from teh ancient Philistines, an enemy of the Jews. As a further affront to the vanquished Jews, Rome changed the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, but it didn't stay. So the word Palestinian is somewhat of a misnomer itself.

The West bank will remain an issue. But that land was controlled by today's Palestinians until 1967, when Israel repelled yet another invasion. Palestinian claims to it are a little bit like the vanquished Germans in 1945 asking to renegotiate the borders of Germany back to von Bismarck's reign, or the Treaty of Versailles. It doesn't work that way. You don't get a do-over; a war was fought and the loser (who started it) is trying to negotiate for pre-war conditions. That sounds funny, except it involves real people.

 

[circusgirl]

I agree that Arafat is not a credible leader. He does not have any power, no-one listens to him anymore. That is why I don't understand why Sharon keeps blaming him, when it's obvious the guy has zero say in what Hamas etc are getting up to.
The suicide bombings are wrong. Absolutely. And not doing the Palestinians any service at all. Maybe massive investment in the area would help matters, as poverty rarely helps things, extremists prey on the poor and destitute... we need a Marshall plan for the rest of the world, people... sometimes I wonder whether there is any point in trying to help....

circusgirl

 

[K.A.R.R.]

How many arabs do you know personally? Do you know any Palestinians? Have you spoken to them about their daily lives under Israeli occupation? Have you discussed the situation with them at length? I have.

Those are some good questions. When you stop seeing a particular people as mere nightly news characters and begin to learn about their history, culture, and religion, you get to see their humanity and understand their motives and actions.

Now, may I ask you a couple of questions?

How many Jews do you know personally? Do you know any Israelis? Have you spoken to them about their daily lives in Israel? Have you discussed the situation with them at length?

As for the rest of your post (especially the part about creating Israel in Montana), it only reveals your near-complete lack of knowledge of Middle Eastern history. Also, do a little research on the concept of dhimmi in Islam. Anti-Jewish hatred and violent persecution in the Arab world existed for centuries prior to the establishment of Israel.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Maybe massive investment in the area would help matters, as poverty rarely helps things, extremists prey on the poor and destitute...

Yes! massive investment would help!!

And you know who would be the perfect group to subsidize that investment? The oil-drenched, super wealthy royalty in the Middle East!!

The King of Saudi Arabia, instead of paying thousands of people off to prevent his overthrow, could throw a few bucks that way. So could UAE; plenty of dollars over there. Imagine that - Muslims helping each other. Isn't one of their 5 pillars "alms to the poor?"

You know who is investing in the area? Saddam Hussein! He has offered $25,000 to the surviving family of a suicide bomber. Did you know that Saddam is the greatest killer of Muslims in the last 100 years?

Meanwhile, Israel lets native born Arabs vote (nowhere else in the Middle East would do that). Those brutes!

You know, instead of blaimg the Muslims for the terrorism, we should blame the Mongols. After all, it was Genghis Khan's army who killed the caliph in the 1200's and ended the golden age of Islam. They still haven't recovered. Damn Genghis.

 

[the nature boy]

You know who is investing in the area? Saddam Hussein! He has offered $25,000 to the surviving family of a suicide bomber. Did you know that Saddam is the greatest killer of Muslims in the last 100 years?

hmmm, I wonder who put him into power. it escapes me. maybe you know.

 

[circusgirl]

To answer some more questions -

Do I know any Jews? yes, I do.
Israelis? There are a few working here in the dept.

Have I discussed the situation at length with them? Not at length. I know one of them disapproves of the expansionist policies of the current Israeli govt because he occasionally makes anti-sharon comments.

I can see that for Israelis, the situation is fairly shitty. World powers say, hey, come and live here (I believe Uganda was also mentioned at one point as possible site for Israel), zionists propose current territory of Israel as location, people arrive, oh shit, we forgot to tell you, the house is real nice but the neighbours suck....

For Palestinians, British etc kick them off their land. Not being the greatest graspers of world politics, Palestinians fail to realise that world powers and not a couple of hundred thousand war refugees are at fault here.

Shitty situation escalates.

People born in Israel, just told, these crazy arabs just hate you and want to kill you. AFAIK it is not the case that the Jewish communities in places like Jerba in Tunisia were persecuted a great deal BEFORE the foundation of Israel. However, after this, the jewish communities in these places had to leave because they were perceived as being allied with Israel. So, not much choice there, hey, go to Israel and get attacked all the time. One of the books that has featured prominently on the best seller list in Israel recently is calle "How to get a foreign passport". I understand that they feel trapped and under seige, there are so many arabs and so few of them, and Israel is pretty damn small in size in comparison. They can't leave, they are cornered, so they fight, and fight dirty, just to make sure.

Understanding does not equal sympathising, and this does not, in my opinion, excuse the behaviour of the Israeli govt for the last 20 years. They have practiced torture and murder on a massive scale and oppressed the Palestinians, and now the Palestinians CONTINUE to see those nasty Israelis as the source of all the trouble, when strictly speaking, they now are, but were not to begin with... The govt should know better, they have many employees whose job is to know better.
More to the point, it is just storing up more trouble and escalating the situation.

I do not equate the policy of a govt with the views of every citizen. I do not agree with many of Blair's policies here, nor do quite a lot of the population. I would be justifiably pissed off if I was held accountable for it abroad.

The situation now is, the Israelis are there, the Palestinians are there. Best thing is to TALK and stop killing each other. However from what I know this intifada started because the Israelis were busy being shitty to the Palestinian authority, and not really letting them make a go of it. I do NOT think the Pastinians are justified in being suicide bombers, however, if they attacked some Israeli military installations, I would not be crying a great deal.

As for a lot of the govts in the area being assholes, I agree, most arab states illtreat their citizens terribly. And there was/is quite a bit of corruption in the current Palestinian authority, much as you get in arab society (or indeed, western society) when influence is more important than hard work.

circusgirl

 

[K.A.R.R.]

To answer some more questions -

Do I know any Jews? yes, I do.
Israelis? There are a few working here in the dept.

Have I discussed the situation at length with them? Not at length.

Not at length? Sounds like you don't know these people well. Overhearing one anti-Sharon remark does not really constitute a conversation.

I find it rather odd how you stress the importance of discussing these really complicated issues in detail with the people who either live there or hail from there, yet you fail to realize that it's a two-way street. For every Palestinian view, there's an Israeli one.

If you really want to understand Israelis, and Jews elsewhere in the world, read up on the litany of anti-Jewish violence that reached its apex in the Holocaust. There's a point in a people's history when they say "enough is enough."

People born in Israel, just told, these crazy arabs just hate you and want to kill you. AFAIK it is not the case that the Jewish communities in places like Jerba in Tunisia were persecuted a great deal BEFORE the foundation of Israel. However, after this, the jewish communities in these places had to leave because they were perceived as being allied with Israel.

No, people born in Israel are not told or taught that there are Arabs who hate them. They can see it for themselves when their 3-year-old niece is blown to pieces at an ice-cream parlor, or when they find out that their 24-year-old daughter was decapitated in a bus blast on her way to work. This hatred is real.

Again, you don't know much about the history of the Jews in the Arab world. I'm assuming you mentioned Jerba, Tunisia because it was recently on the news as the sight of a synagogue bombing. Did you do a search on the concept of dhimma in Islam? You should. The Jews were persecuted a great deal from Morocco and Algeria to Yemen and Iraq way before the establishment of Israel. Oh, and the explanation of "alleged alliance" that you provided above is really just Arab propaganda. It didn't happen like that - what did happen is that pan-Arab nationalism, which began to flourish in the late 19th century, only reinforced traditional anti-Jewish beliefs and practices in various Arab societies and often led to deadly anti-Jewish massacres that fused old religious prejudices with modern ideological motives. Violent anti-Jewish persecution existed in the Arab world prior to the emergence of modern Arab nationalism, but it acquired new ideological characteristics, often borrowed from various European racial theorists, during the late 19th and 20th centuries. This hatred escalated just prior to and immediately following the establishment of Israel - but it's always been there.

You could also do a little research on what the Palestinian Arabs did in the 1920's and 1930's BEFORE the establishment of Israel. That is when the Arabs raped, maimed, and killed hundreds of Jews for simply being in Palestine.

Understanding does not equal sympathising, and this does not, in my opinion, excuse the behaviour of the Israeli govt for the last 20 years. They have practiced torture and murder on a massive scale and oppressed the Palestinians, and now the Palestinians CONTINUE to see those nasty Israelis as the source of all the trouble, when strictly speaking, they now are, but were not to begin with... The govt should know better, they have many employees whose job is to know better.
More to the point, it is just storing up more trouble and escalating the situation..

I love your "value neutral" statements, i.e., "those nasty Israelis."

Other than that, and some simplifying, almost propagandistic exaggeration that takes political events out of context, there's some truth in what you just said.

As for a lot of the govts in the area being assholes, I agree, most arab states illtreat their citizens terribly. And there was/is quite a bit of corruption in the current Palestinian authority, much as you get in arab society (or indeed, western society) when influence is more important than hard work. circusgirl

Most Arab governments are fascist regimes; they're either oppressive monarchies or totalitarian regimes (with few exceptions, e.g., the moderate kingdoms of Jordan, Morocco, Qatar, etc.). Syria and Iraq are ruled by the Baath party, which is short for the Arab National Socialist Movement (refer to one of my paragraphs above on Arab nationalism). That's right, that's National Socialist - they're Nazi. As long as these regimes continue to exist and support extremist Palestinian groups, there will never be any peace in that area. Also, let's not forget that millions upon millions of Arabs have been brainwashed since childhood with Nazi-type anti-Semitic propaganda. This problem also needs to be addressed in order to have real peace.

 

[circusgirl]

erm "those nasty israelis" was a sarcastic comment.