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Why are gas prices so high?

WODIN

बुद्धकर&
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Motorists face gasoline shortages as well as record prices the next few weeks because of the skintight U.S. refining and distribution network.

The vulnerability of that network, combined with low inventories of both gasoline and the crude oil from which it's made, have the government and energy experts increasingly nervous that some places in the USA will run out of gas temporarily. An accident that has disrupted shipping on the Mississippi River and in the Gulf of Mexico could trigger shortages this week.

"It looks like the big bulk terminals in Florida are going to run out in the next few days," Tom Kloza, analyst at the Oil Price Information Service, said Wednesday. Big gasoline suppliers were warning their customers of imminent Florida shortages and reduced allocations, he said. The Coast Guard said it had reopened some of the channel Wednesday, but a backlog of ships remained.

"The U.S. gasoline supply system is not 'just-in-time' delivery; it's 'a-minute-too-late' delivery," Kloza says. The river disruption "underscores how hand-to-mouth the supply system is. ... It's a preview of the kinds of things that can happen in spades" as demand rises in the spring and summer driving season.

Americans drive more as the weather warms, increasing demand to 9.5 million to 10 million barrels of gas a day in the summer, vs. 8.7 million now.

"Many signs (point) to a tight gasoline market this driving season," the U.S. Energy Information Administration said Wednesday.

Analysts are more blunt. "Expect major regional gasoline shortages," warns A.F. Alhajji, associate professor and energy economist at Ohio Northern University. When that happens, prices zoom as gasoline wholesalers compete for supplies, giving a regional shortage national impact. Alhajji is confident that "gasoline prices will increase nationwide as we approach the driving season, even in areas that have adequate supplies."

Average gasoline prices in California and Hawaii have topped $2 for a gallon of unleaded regular, and Nevada is close at $1.968, AAA said Wednesday. AAA said regular averaged $1.681 nationwide, up 7.9 cents the last month. That's 5.6 cents less than the record average of $1.737 reported last Aug. 30. EIA, using different data, lists the record as $1.747 last Aug. 25.

Gas would have to average $2.89 to surpass the inflation-adjusted record of $1.417 in 1981.

EIA's weekly report showed gasoline supplies down 1% last week from the previous week. Refining operations were slowed by problems, maintenance and disruptive changes necessary to produce lower-sulfur and summer-blend gas required by clean-air regulations.

Supply worries kicked up West Texas Intermediate crude oil $1.10 per barrel, to $35.68
 
Alhajji is confident that "gasoline prices will increase nationwide as we approach the driving season, even in areas that have adequate supplies."



what a coincidence, prices going up during the summer months. :rolleyes:
 
that ain half bad you should come to my shitty country and try to fill your gastank up, it'll cost you your entire welfare check i guarantee it
 
Lumberg said:
Maybe this is just what we needed to keep those gas-guzzling behemoth drivers in check
Some good.... :)

LMAO @ your location.
 
Whiners. I pay more than $5.50 US a gallon.
 
here's what I've read and seen on the news, oh and I talked with bullit about this if you can believe that. Here goes:

1) opec cut production by 10%.... however it seems like prices are past 10% from where they were
2) the cold winter has increased heating oil demand. so the price goes up
3) the dollar is getting weaker (due to the budget deficit and national debt perhaps?) so the american dollar can't get the same value for foreign goods like it used to

when it gets warm analysts expect the price of gas to go over 3.00 in some areas. perhaps this will get people to get smaller more fuel efficient cars as lumberg said.
 
the reason they are climbing is because the world is bent over an oil barrel, and those fuckers can dictate terms

you would think that the US government, with its vaunted power, wealth, and intellectual property, would have developed an alternative fuel method if it really really wanted to...but it hasnt...or has it....anyone else think something stinks?
 
The Nature Boy said:
how about explaining then?

I was going to and I realized I was going to explain price elasticity of demand.

Since this is more of a supply issue I am less knowledgeable. Suffice it to say the curves are not linear. I'll look something up.
 
here we go:

http://www.bized.ac.uk/stafsup/options/notes/econ207.htm#Heading87

what we have here is a case of the supply curve moving.

we don't know how far or what the slope of the line is.

also note that though it is represented as a line the shape can be any number of weird things....usually a convex curve.

asnyways as you can see there is no established relationship where a certain percentage reduction in supply will result in a certain percentage increase in price. every good is going to have its own unique relationship at any given instant
 
It's a two fold issue on the supply side. The level of reserves, which are way low and the level by which the product can be distributed to market. The first stage of the bottle neck is in the refining companies which haven't built any new capacity for refening in the past 20 years which has created a huge contraint on the ability of companies to delivery the product to the market place. The 2nd one is the archaic distribution system which really hurts the midwest and western states more than the eastern states this side of the Mississippi.

This is because the western distribution system is a parse patchwork and the eastern system is fairly flush along major river lines.
 
WODIN said:
It's a two fold issue on the supply side. The level of reserves, which are way low and the level by which the product can be distributed to market. The first stage of the bottle neck is in the refining companies which haven't built any new capacity for refening in the past 20 years which has created a huge contraint on the ability of companies to delivery the product to the market place. The 2nd one is the archaic distribution system which really hurts the midwest and western states more than the eastern states this side of the Mississippi.

This is because the western distribution system is a parse patchwork and the eastern system is fairly flush along major river lines.

More than twofold WODIN don't forget OPEC's artificial control of supply. That is to what NB was referring and I was trying to explain.

If you look at it like the tax example, Q1 = .9Q but P1 does not necessarily = 1.1P
 
SO what are you guys paying right now?

it was $1.599 here yesterday. Cheapest I've seen in a few weeks.
 
Compared to the rest of the world...our US gas is CHEAP!!!!!

B True
 
So SUDDENLY the gas network is vulnerable?
Wasn't it JUST as vulnerable last year?
 
dude freak this - it is almost 2.00 already for reguar unleaded.... (1.96) here in AZ - this is bullshit - paying for thier screwups and price-gouging....
 
$2.03

I live on near the very most eastern tip on Long Island.

We are told that the east end of LI has higher prices because everything has to be shipped so much father to get here. Oddly enough the gas for the east tip of LI comes from Riverhead - which is right over the canal and right next to Hampton Bays which is the first "hampton" village going from West to East. So that travel theory is bullshit especially when you consider the travel is shorter than getting gas delivered to the reat of Nassau and Western Suffolk County.

Imagine if the travel theory was true - then could you imagine how much gas would be in Keys of Flordia?

The old Exxon station in Amagansett used to have a weekend gas price and a weekday gas price because the owner hated the summer weekenders so much.


If people need something you can charge what ever someone is willing to pay for it.
 
Also interesting - think about where Petroleum Jelly and Mineral Oil comes from and also consider that is in nearly every creme or lotion - why? because it's a cheap binder.

Ironic no?
 
velvett said:
Also interesting - think about where Petroleum Jelly and Mineral Oil comes from and also consider that is in nearly every creme or lotion - why? because it's a cheap binder.

Ironic no?
Yep.....very. LOL
 
Lumberg said:
More than twofold WODIN don't forget OPEC's artificial control of supply. That is to what NB was referring and I was trying to explain.

If you look at it like the tax example, Q1 = .9Q but P1 does not necessarily = 1.1P
I was going at it from the physical plant aspects.

You are correct because you have the bushel basket of goods that would create a function of .1S to equal X increase in price.
 
Why are gas prices so high? BECAUSE THEY CAN!

I'm in Sandyeggo. Gas prices are higher here than in Phoenix, who's only natural resources are SUN and SAND! Go figure.
 
strongsmartsexy said:
Why are gas prices so high? BECAUSE THEY CAN!

I'm in Sandyeggo. Gas prices are higher here than in Phoenix, who's only natural resources are SUN and SAND! Go figure.

Exactly - we're all getting bent over....

I have long ago decide no one should live in AZ cause people were not meant to live in the desert... yet I still live here....

FYI water here is a big issue every year cause we sell most of ours to california for agriculture..... then we people have to buy our water back from california.... talk about screwy....
 
GoldenDelicious said:
you would think that the US government, with its vaunted power, wealth, and intellectual property, would have developed an alternative fuel method if it really really wanted to...but it hasnt...or has it....anyone else think something stinks?

You would think that eco-socialist countries with all of their hatred of fossil fuel consumption and vehicle choice would have funnelled their resources into coming up with a viable alternative fuels...but they haven't...and they still bitch because the US has not provided them with their wishes. Astounding. :rolleyes:
 
Becoming said:
Exactly - we're all getting bent over....

I have long ago decide no one should live in AZ cause people were not meant to live in the desert... yet I still live here....

FYI water here is a big issue every year cause we sell most of ours to california for agriculture..... then we people have to buy our water back from california.... talk about screwy....

Yes, but then they bend CA over on selling them electric power while AZ power is cheap.
 
strongsmartsexy said:
Yes, but then they bend CA over on selling them electric power while AZ power is cheap.

not that cheap.... but yeah that tends to happen when you have to buy from someone else...

which is why it is dumb we sell you our water then have to buy it back.... :rolleyes: basically puts us in the same situation....

I got nothing agains cali - just the peeps who are in charge in AZ are dumbasses....
 
Becoming said:
not that cheap.... but yeah that tends to happen when you have to buy from someone else...

which is why it is dumb we sell you our water then have to buy it back.... :rolleyes: basically puts us in the same situation....

I got nothing agains cali - just the peeps who are in charge in AZ are dumbasses....

I lived there for 10 years. (in Phoenix) The folks who were running it then were OLD money. Make that ANCIENT money. Remember the nolefturns era?

My brother had a home that was about the same size as mine. He ran air conditioning all summer long and paid less money than I do during the winter when I run NO heating at all. Sandyeggo's weather is too nice for heating. I just figured it was a NICE CLIMATE tax.
 
strongsmartsexy said:
I lived there for 10 years. (in Phoenix) The folks who were running it then were OLD money. Make that ANCIENT money. Remember the nolefturns era?

My brother had a home that was about the same size as mine. He ran air conditioning all summer long and paid less money than I do during the winter when I run NO heating at all. Sandyeggo's weather is too nice for heating. I just figured it was a NICE CLIMATE tax.

I've only been here for 5 years give or take... but the people who run it now are real screwheads....

for gods sake we gave the cards a stadium - there will be no return on that investment....
 
atlantabiolab said:
You would think that eco-socialist countries with all of their hatred of fossil fuel consumption and vehicle choice would have funnelled their resources into coming up with a viable alternative fuels...but they haven't...and they still bitch because the US has not provided them with their wishes. Astounding. :rolleyes:

hm i suppose they focused a tad too hard on educating and feeding their populace

fact of the matter is that the US is the most likely place for such research to be done, given that it owns most of the worlds intellectual property, is the primary developer of intellectual property particularly in computer/mech/elec/med/biomed/biotech engineering, and has the largest demand for fossil fuel

im not bitching, nor am i from an eco-socialist country, i am merely a realist who notes that the worlds richest nation, with the worlds greatest need for such energy alternatives, with the worlds greatest likelihood to achieve it, and has funneled hundreds of billions into funding wars which achieve the ends of its energy needs, is the most likely candidate to get its shit together

furthermore such an invention would be very lucrative. i am simply amazed it hasnt been done yet, or that a greater emphasis has not been placed on doing so.
 
GoldenDelicious said:
furthermore such an invention would be very lucrative. i am simply amazed it hasnt been done yet, or that a greater emphasis has not been placed on doing so.
while it would be lucrative for some, it would not be lucrative for many others. others that have a lot of influence in the political process.
 
If this finally gives some steam to alternative fuel or hybrid cars i wouldn't mind paying a little more for gas for awhile.
 
GoldenDelicious said:
hm i suppose they focused a tad too hard on educating and feeding their populace

Yes, where would we be without the benevolence of government.

fact of the matter is that the US is the most likely place for such research to be done, given that it owns most of the worlds intellectual property, is the primary developer of intellectual property particularly in computer/mech/elec/med/biomed/biotech engineering, and has the largest demand for fossil fuel

im not bitching, nor am i from an eco-socialist country, i am merely a realist who notes that the worlds richest nation, with the worlds greatest need for such energy alternatives, with the worlds greatest likelihood to achieve it, and has funneled hundreds of billions into funding wars which achieve the ends of its energy needs, is the most likely candidate to get its shit together

furthermore such an invention would be very lucrative. i am simply amazed it hasnt been done yet, or that a greater emphasis has not been placed on doing so.

I totally agree, but why do you think that we are NOT working on this issue? Is every issue not resolved yesterday, suspect? Invention and innovation takes time, it is not a process whereby money is spent, ingredients added and out pops a finished product.

It will be very lucrative, which is why the largest companies ARE working on such ideas, and if they do not reach the goal first, they still have the option to buy the rights to the idea. This idea that oil companies suppress all competition is childish.

Never forget that government is great at wasting tons of money on alternative fuels which cost more than they produce, such as wind power, and ethanol.
 
atlantabiolab said:
I totally agree, but why do you think that we are NOT working on this issue? Is every issue not resolved yesterday, suspect? Invention and innovation takes time, it is not a process whereby money is spent, ingredients added and out pops a finished product.

It will be very lucrative, which is why the largest companies ARE working on such ideas, and if they do not reach the goal first, they still have the option to buy the rights to the idea. This idea that oil companies suppress all competition is childish.

i dont think its childish at all. if you were in the energy game, you would currently be selling fossil fuels at stupidly high prices, developing, patenting, and buying alternate fuel technologies, until such time fossil fuels were running low, then introducing your new tech (ultra high premium price) and increasing the price of your fossil fuel (greenhouse premium as well as scarcity for those who do not want to decomission existing equipment) thereby artificially forcing people to move over into the new tech at maximum price point. a nice euphamism for this is 'cornering the market' but i like to think of it as 'milking it dry'.
 
bullshit.

So you're saying, in a few months we may run out of oil for everyone on the planet??

If there's not enough tankers, buy more. If there's not enough reservoirs to hold oil during peak demands, build more. If labour is too high, hire mexicans. There's a billion solutions. I'm sure if Bill Gates was put in charge, and told Windows would be sold to the Polish if he didn't keep prices down -- he'd "find" a way.

It's just incredibly simplistic excuses to keep the layman who read the newspapers happy about why they're over-paying for their gasoline. Think about it. They're BUSINESSES. What are businesses in business for? PROFITS. These "surges" are just quick excuses to pad the bottom line. Since people would riot if the price was high all year -- it's way easier to just raise every now and then. Easier for the average American to swallow and accept it.

Hell, they even decrease production "on purpose" just in time for holiday weekends, just to use that as an excuse to raise prices. What people don't know -- that gas you're pumpin' now, was pumped out MONTHS ago.
 
Saudi Arabia's reserves have been downgraded and Russia is having a power struggle with putin starting to turn the Dem. into a Dictatorship and Muslims are starting a move on Russias border. Also Indias, and Chinas demands are going way, way up! US demand is up to and we are not drilling for any of our reserves! $3.50 per gallon by July! And the other .25 is just going to be price gouging as always! Thank god I got in my gas futures early! I'm going to make a fortune again!
 
The size of the oil industry on this planet is STAGGERING. It's by far the biggest industry around, in the TRILLIONS.

If you're a politician in some country, and you make your effor to "control" these oil prices. With TRILLIONS at stake -- you'll be looking at a nice sniper rifle faster than you know it.

Ever wonder why no one in Washington dares to speak up against OPEC? Even Clinton's "oil alternative" philosophies very *quietly* died w/o much fanfare.

OPEC is way more dangerous than Al Qaeda. You don't want to fuck with that infrastructure or even dare thinking about replacing it. Economies of COUNTRIES depend on oil. Even if it means shedding blood to keep that monopoly.
 
GoldenDelicious said:
i dont think its childish at all. if you were in the energy game, you would currently be selling fossil fuels at stupidly high prices, developing, patenting, and buying alternate fuel technologies, until such time fossil fuels were running low, then introducing your new tech (ultra high premium price) and increasing the price of your fossil fuel (greenhouse premium as well as scarcity for those who do not want to decomission existing equipment) thereby artificially forcing people to move over into the new tech at maximum price point. a nice euphamism for this is 'cornering the market' but i like to think of it as 'milking it dry'.

And since all oil companies would not share in this new technology, if the alternative fuel owning company tried to increase oil prices, then those not sharing in this new technology would simply undercut their prices and out sell them and forcing the prices back down. Your scenario only holds to a true monopoly, which we don't have.
 
until someone can re-invent the internal combustion engine, to use something other than oil to move pistons up and down -- we'll be using oil for CENTURIES long after all of us are gone. It ain't going away anytime soon. Scientists can't even come CLOSE yet to replacing oil.
 
Razorguns said:
until someone can re-invent the internal combustion engine, to use something other than oil to move pistons up and down -- we'll be using oil for CENTURIES long after all of us are gone. It ain't going away anytime soon. Scientists can't even come CLOSE yet to replacing oil.

Do you read?

In relation to your first question heard of turbines? Electric cars?

In relation to your second point heard of ethanol from corn?
 
Razorguns said:
until someone can re-invent the internal combustion engine, to use something other than oil to move pistons up and down -- we'll be using oil for CENTURIES long after all of us are gone. It ain't going away anytime soon. Scientists can't even come CLOSE yet to replacing oil.

I work in the hydrogen fuel cell industry and have to agree with you on this one
 
>In relation to your first question heard of turbines? Electric cars?
>In relation to your second point heard of ethanol from corn?

all non-practical lab concepts. They move a go-kart 3 miles. Whoppee.

The FIRST company on this planet that can move a 3,000lb vehicle 350 miles without a SINGLE drop of oil -- will instantly become richer and more powerful than 5 Microsoft's combined.

However, they'll also be assassinated and blown up with 48 hours. Not something you'd want to publicly announce without your government providing you national security and protection. Similar to how nuclear scientists used to get 24/7 police protection when they first discovered nuclear fusion and atom splitting.

Too much money and political peace at risk baby....
 
We do have buses that use fuel cells in the field, but they just aren't reliable yet. Not so much the fuel cell technology as the integration and components.
 
btw: Haven't you guys ever wondered why electric cars are designed SO UGLY??

No, it's not because designers are just so blind at designing cars when the engine changes. There's an ulterior motive there. Put 2 and 2 together.
 
Razorguns said:
Scientists can't even come CLOSE yet to replacing oil.

I agree with it ain't going away anytime soon thing....just not with the above comment

Ever heard of Mobil one, Redline, etc? Not to mention th eethanol post above. Scientists can synthesize traditionally petroleum based products.

They can do it already nav. Thing is it is still about 4x as expensive as the distilled stuff.

Fuel cells. Electric cars. They will continue to grow in popularity. Thing is even more money is going into making regular gas engines mroe efficient and powerful.

Just don't make blanket statements like "they aren't even close." They are already there. It's not the science that is keeping us from switching to alternative fuels it's the economics.
 
Razorguns said:
The FIRST company on this planet that can move a 3,000lb vehicle 350 miles without a SINGLE drop of oil -- will instantly become richer and more powerful than 5 Microsoft's combined.

I could do it with steak potatoes gatorade and protein bars.

Clint Darden will be my first employee.

:frlol:
 
Lumberg said:
I agree with it ain't going away anytime soon thing....just
Just don't make blanket statements like "they aren't even close." They are already there. It's not the science that is keeping us from switching to alternative fuels it's the economics.

Royal Dutch Shell even has a division devoted to hydrogen production/distribution--just in case. The oil companies, while likely lobbying against these technologies and dragging their feet, know the day is coming. Not sure if it's fuel cells, microturbines, or whatever.. hydrogen will almost assuredly be the base of our economy at some point.
 
chaos mage said:
Royal Dutch Shell even has a division devoted to hydrogen production/distribution--just in case. The oil companies, while likely lobbying against these technologies and dragging their feet, know the day is coming. Not sure if it's fuel cells, microturbines, or whatever.. hydrogen will almost assuredly be the base of our economy at some point.

BINGO...There IS free energy out there,but every discovery/patent is quickly hushed and given zero funding for mass production due to the powers that be.I'm keeping a close eye on a very controversial physicist right now who is on the fringes of mass production of a solar paneled hydrogen fuel generator that will work in any car just like gasoline.He's been running his own vehicle for about a decade with it.Imagine,after an initial investment,to NEVER have to pay for gas again.That would be sick.
 
too bad it won't happen during our lifetimes. Not even a *glimmer* of something big happening anytime soon...
 
Razorguns said:
too bad it won't happen during our lifetimes. Not even a *glimmer* of something big happening anytime soon...

why do you say that? you're quite pessimistic

also that site you posted is fookin AWESOME k
 
Lumberg said:
In relation to your second point heard of ethanol from corn?

1) Ethanol is a decent fuel, but we'll still need petrochemical lubricants.
B) Producing ethanol from corn is fucking expensive and consumes more energy than the resulting ethanol is capable of producing. It's a net loss.
 
velvett said:
$2.03


Imagine if the travel theory was true - then could you imagine how much gas would be in Keys of Flordia?

it is actually considerably more expensive than say, Miami. About 15 - 20 cents per gallon.
 
WODIN said:
The first stage of the bottle neck is in the refining companies which haven't built any new capacity for refening in the past 20 years which has created a huge contraint on the ability of companies to delivery the product to the market place.

This is due to environmental regulations and government intervention, as are most economic fuckups.
 
The Nature Boy said:
are you speaking domestically? or internationally?

oh, doesmtically.

The restrictions on refineries are so insane that it is prohibitively expensive to build one.

hence no one does.
 
Mr. dB said:
1) Ethanol is a decent fuel, but we'll still need petrochemical lubricants.
B) Producing ethanol from corn is fucking expensive and consumes more energy than the resulting ethanol is capable of producing. It's a net loss.

Read a few posts again...Mobil One is SYNTHETIC OIL

There is synthetic transmission fluid, synthetic power steering fluid, etc.
 
Mr. dB said:
1) Ethanol is a decent fuel, but we'll still need petrochemical lubricants.
B) Producing ethanol from corn is fucking expensive and consumes more energy than the resulting ethanol is capable of producing. It's a net loss.

Correct, but not a net loss to the government and the ethanol manufacturers. Taxpayers fund this worthless project.
 
Lumberg said:
Read a few posts again...Mobil One is SYNTHETIC OIL

There is synthetic transmission fluid, synthetic power steering fluid, etc.

I use Mobil 1 religiously. I don't think that it is completely free of petrochemicals. Most synthetics contain some "cracked" oil.
 
atlantabiolab said:
Correct, but not a net loss to the government and the ethanol manufacturers. Taxpayers fund this worthless project.

I meant a net energy loss.

Financially, the present ethanol arrangement is nothing less than a boondoggle.
 
Mr. dB said:
I use Mobil 1 religiously. I don't think that it is completely free of petrochemicals. Most synthetics contain some "cracked" oil.

Damn. I met a couple of petrochemical engineers in a bar once that worked for Exxon/Mobil. They were cute British women too! I could ask them.

I bet you technology exists to create 100% pure synthetic lubricants but it is prohibitively expensive. Just dont' know for sure though ;)
 
atlantabiolab said:
And since all oil companies would not share in this new technology, if the alternative fuel owning company tried to increase oil prices, then those not sharing in this new technology would simply undercut their prices and out sell them and forcing the prices back down. Your scenario only holds to a true monopoly, which we don't have.

not neccessarily. sure there are blips out there in the research and development world which might result in an unknown coming up with a viable alternative, but for the most part, an oligopoly already exists. youre right about my scenario and when it would likely work, but i think you are naive to think that the major players in todays energy industry (oil companies) would not remain major players in the energy market of the future. the wealth and tactics employed by these companies would, i believe, ensure it.
 
You don't think it has anything to do with the election do you? :chomp:
 
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